Iranian attack drone found to contain parts from more than a dozen US companies

2023-01-0513:42209286www.cnn.com

Parts made by more than a dozen US and Western companies were found inside a single Iranian drone downed in Ukraine last fall, according to a Ukrainian intelligence assessment obtained exclusively by…

Parts made by more than a dozen US and Western companies were found inside a single Iranian drone downed in Ukraine last fall, according to a Ukrainian intelligence assessment obtained exclusively by CNN.

The assessment, which was shared with US government officials late last year, illustrates the extent of the problem facing the Biden administration, which has vowed to shut down Iran’s production of drones that Russia is launching by the hundreds into Ukraine.

CNN reported last month that the White House has created an administration-wide task force to investigate how US and Western-made technology – ranging from smaller equipment like semiconductors and GPS modules to larger parts like engines – has ended up in Iranian drones.

Of the 52 components Ukrainians removed from the Iranian Shahed-136 drone, 40 appear to have been manufactured by 13 different American companies, according to the assessment.

The remaining 12 components were manufactured by companies in Canada, Switzerland, Japan, Taiwan, and China, according to the assessment.

The options for combating the issue are limited. The US has for years imposed tough export control restrictions and sanctions to prevent Iran from obtaining high-end materials. Now US officials are looking at enhanced enforcement of those sanctions, encouraging companies to better monitor their own supply chains and, perhaps most importantly, trying to identify the third-party distributors taking these products and re-selling them to bad actors.

NSC spokesperson Adrienne Watson told CNN in a statement that “We are looking at ways to target Iranian UAV production through sanctions, export controls, and talking to private companies whose parts have been used in the production. We are assessing further steps we can take in terms of export controls to restrict Iran’s access to technologies used in drones.”

A drone considered to be an Iranian made Shahed-136, amid Russia's attack on Kyiv, October 17, 2022.

There is no evidence suggesting that any of those companies are running afoul of US sanctions laws and knowingly exporting their technology to be used in the drones. Even with many companies promising increased monitoring, controlling where these highly ubiquitous parts end up in the global market is often very difficult for manufacturers, experts told CNN. Companies may also not know what they are looking for if the US government has not caught up with and sanctioned the actors buying and selling the products for illicit purposes.

And the Ukrainian intelligence assessment is further proof that despite sanctions, Iran is still finding an abundance of commercially available technology. For example, the company that built the downed drone, Iran Aircraft Manufacturing Industries Corporation (HESA), has been under US sanctions since 2008.

One major issue is that it is far easier for Russian and Iranian officials to set up shell companies to use to purchase the equipment and evade sanctions than it is for Western governments to uncover those front companies, which can sometimes take years, experts said.

“This is a game of Whack-a-Mole. And the United States government needs to get incredibly good at Whack-a- Mole, period,” said former Pentagon official Gregory Allen, who now serves as Director of the Artificial Intelligence Governance Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. “This is a core competency of the US national security establishment – or it had better become one.”

Allen, who recently co-authored an investigation into the efficacy of US export controls, said ultimately, “there is no substitute for robust, in-house capabilities in the US government.”

He cautioned that it is not an easy job. The microelectronics industry relies heavily on third party distributors and resellers that are difficult to track, and the microchips and other small devices ending up in so many of the Iranian and Russian drones are not only inexpensive and widely available, they are also easily hidden.

“Why do smugglers like diamonds?” Allen said. “Because they’re small, lightweight, and worth a ton of money. And unfortunately, computer chips have similar properties.” Success won’t necessarily be measured in stopping 100% of transactions, he added, but rather in making it more difficult and expensive for bad actors to get what they need.

The rush to stop Iran from manufacturing the drones is growing more urgent as Russia continues to deploy them across Ukraine with relentless ferocity, targeting both civilian areas and key infrastructure. Russia is also preparing to establish its own factory to produce them with Iran’s help, according to US officials. On Monday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said that Ukrainian forces had shot down more than 80 Iranian drones in just two days.

Firefighters work after a drone attack on buildings in Kyiv, Ukraine, Oct. 17, 2022.

Zelensky also said that Ukraine had intelligence that Russia “is planning a prolonged attack with Shaheds,” betting that it will lead to the “exhaustion of our people, our air defense, our energy sector.”

A separate probe of Iranian drones downed in Ukraine, conducted by the UK-based investigative firm Conflict Armament Research, found that 82% of the components had been manufactured by companies based in the US. 

Damien Spleeters, the Deputy Director of Operations at Conflict Armament Research, told CNN that sanctions will only be effective if governments continue to monitor what parts are being used and how they got there.

“Iran and Russia are going to try to go around those sanctions and will try to change their acquisition channels,” Spleeters said. “And that’s precisely what we want to focus on: getting in the field and opening up those systems, tracing the components, and monitoring for changes.”

Experts also told CNN that if the US government wants to beef up enforcement of the sanctions, it will need to devote more resources and hire more employees who can be on the ground to track the vendors and resellers of these products.

“Nobody has really thought about investing more in agencies like the Bureau of Industry Security, which were really sleepy parts of the DC national security establishment for a few decades,” Allen, of CSIS, said, referring to a branch of the Commerce Department that deals primarily with export controls enforcement. “And now, suddenly, they’re at the forefront of national security technology competition, and they’re not being resourced remotely in that vein.”

According to the Ukrainian assessment, among the US-made components found in the drone were nearly two dozen parts built by Texas Instruments, including microcontrollers, voltage regulators, and digital signal controllers; a GPS module by Hemisphere GNSS; a microprocessor by NXP USA Inc.; and circuit board components by Analog Devices and Onsemi. Also discovered were components built by International Rectifier – now owned by the German company Infineon – and the Swiss company U-Blox.

A microcontroller with a Texas Instruments logo found in the drone examined by Ukrainian officials

CNN sent emailed requests for comment last month to all the companies identified by the Ukrainians. The six that responded emphasized that they condemn any unauthorized use of their products, while noting that combating the diversion and misuse of their semiconductors and other microelectronics is an industry-wide challenge that they are working to confront.

“TI is not selling any products into Russia, Belarus or Iran,” Texas Instruments said in a statement. ” TI complies with applicable laws and regulations in the countries where we operate, and partners with law enforcement organizations as necessary and appropriate. Additionally, we do not support or condone the use of our products in applications they weren’t designed for.”

Gregor Rodehuser, a spokesperson for the German semiconductor manufacturer Infineon, told CNN that “our position is very clear: Infineon condemns the Russian aggression against Ukraine. It is a blatant violation of international law and an attack on the values of humanity.” He added that “apart from the direct business it proves difficult to control consecutive sales throughout the entire lifetime of a product. Nevertheless, we instruct our customers including distributors to only conduct consecutive sales in line with applicable rules.”

Analog Devices, a semiconductor company headquartered in Massachusetts, said in a statement that they are intensifying efforts “to identify and counter this activity, including implementing enhanced monitoring and audit processes, and taking enforcement action where appropriate…to help to reduce unauthorized resale, diversion, and unintended misuse of our products.”

Jacey Zuniga, director of corporate communications for the Austin, Texas-based semiconductor company NXP USA, said that the company “complies with all applicable export control restrictions and sanctions imposed by the countries in which we operate. Military applications are not a focus area for NXP. As a company, we are vehemently opposed to our products being used for human rights violations.”

Phoenix, Arizona-based semiconductor manufacturing company Onsemi also said it complies with “applicable export control and economic sanctions laws and regulations and does not sell directly or indirectly to Russia, Belarus or Iran nor to any foreign military organizations. We cooperate with law enforcement and government agencies as necessary and appropriate to demonstrate how Onsemi conducts business in accordance with all legal requirements and that we hold ourselves to the highest standards of ethical conduct.”

Swiss semiconductor manufacturer U-Blox also said in a statement that its products are for commercial use only, and that the use of its products for Russian military equipment “is in clear breach of u-blox’s conditions of sale applicable to customers and distributors alike.”

This story has been updated with a comment from the National Security Counsel

CNN’s Tim Lister and Victoria Butenko contributed to this report.


Read the original article

Comments

  • By treis 2023-01-0514:365 reply

    These aren't really "from" the US companies. They're commodity parts that US & other Western companies design that are manufactured in Asia and sold around the world. The parts are used way too widely to be tracked in any meaningful way.

    • By capableweb 2023-01-0514:4517 reply

      Seems like the article disagrees with you, do you have a more reliable source for what you're saying?

      > Of the 52 components Ukrainians removed from the Iranian Shahed-136 drone, 40 appear to have been manufactured by 13 different American companies, according to the assessment.

      > The remaining 12 components were manufactured by companies in Canada, Switzerland, Japan, Taiwan, and China, according to the assessment.

      > According to the Ukrainian assessment, among the US-made components found in the drone were nearly two dozen parts built by Texas Instruments, including microcontrollers, voltage regulators, and digital signal controllers; a GPS module by Hemisphere GNSS; a microprocessor by NXP USA Inc.; and circuit board components by Analog Devices and Onsemi. Also discovered were components built by International Rectifier – now owned by the German company Infineon – and the Swiss company U-Blox.

      So less than 12 of the components were manufactured in Asia, while 40 have been manufactured by US companies.

      The article also finishes by linking together components with US companies who seem (at a glance / without digging deeper) to manufacture said components within US borders.

      • By Goz3rr 2023-01-0514:543 reply

        Half the parts listed here you would probably find in a dishwasher or car radio as well, they're called jellybean parts.

        It might not even mean they bought these parts from a legitimate source. They might have been reclaimed or salvaged from legitimate electronics, or they might even be counterfeit chips (which often come from Asia) that were labelled to look like the genuine part.

        • By bjt2n3904 2023-01-0515:294 reply

          People just don't get this. A voltage regulator is the equivalent of a $15 steel pipe at Home Depot.

          Ok. You can get some REALLY FANCY ultra low noise insanely efficient radiation hardened space qualified bleeding edge switch mode power supplies.

          I don't expect they're using those.

          • By ajsnigrutin 2023-01-0516:001 reply

            Yep, and buying even 10.000 voltage regulators is a very common thing, so much, that they even have a reduced price for >10k orders already listed on many sites. Even if you tried to regulate it, someone could just go on farnell/digikey/..., order 10k pieces put them in a pocket and carry them over the border.

            • By m4rtink 2023-01-0518:111 reply

              Still, I guess you could catch some of these smugglers ? They will be fined/jailed/both, which could influence others doing the same & at least would drive up the price of components.

              • By ajsnigrutin 2023-01-0520:09

                But who and why? A company in china can legally buy them, ignore american regulations, since well.. they're not from america, and export them at a higher price to russia. Russians can even open a company in russia that deals with importing foreign components and then exporting them to russia. Most of the world doesn't care about american regulation and why should they?

          • By ilyt 2023-01-0516:53

            eeeeeeeh depends.

            some 5/3.3V linear one? Sure.

            Few generic switch mode power supply low current ones ? Eh, sure, there are few chips that are very popular but they're generally old and not super efficient.

            Anything else ? Sure you can replace existing one but that requires redesigning the device so if you used part A but now can get only part B sure, you might get your 3.3V 5A out of it but you might need different sized capacitors/inductors, and you will certainly need a different board layout.

            Even something simple as transistor used in power regulator (if it is big enough to have separate controller and transistors) might have same/higher amps but different other characteristics so you have to tweak the design a bit to get to the performance.

            Simple microcontroller ? Even if any similar one on market fits the requirements, unless you get part from same family (just having more memory) you ain't fitting same code on it even if it is same architecture, the register map and their function can be different even within same family of chips, let alone different lines so you're up for the recompile at the very least, rewrite of parts at worst. And again board needs to be changed

          • By lumost 2023-01-0516:132 reply

            Contrast the present situation with the cold war. The society union may have sometimes gotten western parts which theyd use for various purposes - most famously tractor factory equipment and Mainframes. The same was true for us acquisition of titanium. However the idea that either military would rely on the other blocks parts would have been insane. Trade was not normalized, and tracking the majority of shipments between the blocks was a tractable problem. These jelly bean parts have huge supply chains that just happen to be extremely efficient.

            I wonder how close we are to a world where global conflict becomes impractical simply due to a lack of parts.

          • By Maursault 2023-01-0516:072 reply

            It isn't voltage regulators. It's actual chips, much like the kind found in smart phones, designed and sold by American companies that Russians need so their drones know where they are.

            • By ClumsyPilot 2023-01-0517:13

              here is a 32Bit MCU, ARM Cortex-M3, for $0.08

              https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/New-Original-In-Stock...

              This can probably run all the software needed for a simple drone, control, navigation, etc.

              Here is an EU supplier:

              https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lumissil/IS31CS8977-QFLS...

              They cost less than nails, how are you gonna track this shit?

            • By Scoundreller 2023-01-0516:491 reply

              Since Russia has its very own clone of the American-operated GPS, I’m having a hard time believing they don’t have a massive stockpile of the parts required to use it.

              https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS

              • By Maursault 2023-01-0517:381 reply

                Sorry for your misbelief, but that is precisely why they need these chips. They have the satellites, but they can't utilize them without the chips.

                • By Goz3rr 2023-01-0520:08

                  The company mentioned in the article (U-Blox) makes said GPS modules, however there are many chinese clones of these. Some rebranded, some passed off as legit ones. They'll mostly meet the spec and sometimes lack a rarely used feature that the original does have.

                  The same happens with microcontrollers. Take the STM32F103 from ST Micro, before the chip shortages this was a chip you could find in in heaps of random low cost electronics that required a bit of smarts. Same thing happens there, there are some chinese clones that are cheaper and almost perfect copies. The "legit" sellers will sell these as GD32F103 or CH32F103 for instance, but if you try to buy a genuine part from a less trusty source there's a decent chance you're paying the higher prices for the same chip, just someone laser marked it as a genuine one instead to make some profit.

        • By throwaway2037 2023-01-0516:091 reply

          "jellybean parts": Cool! I never knew this term before. Thank you to share.

          Ref: https://theknowledgeaccelerator.com/2016/04/16/jellybean-com...

          • By uneoneuno 2023-01-0516:25

            I like the term "industrial LEGO"

        • By another2another 2023-01-0516:023 reply

          I thought that's why the Russians were looting as many white goods from Ukraine as they could, to get hold of the electronics parts that were now harder to source after sanctions.

          • By mannerheim 2023-01-0516:09

            They loot plenty of non-electronic goods, too. Most of their military comes from the most impoverished parts of the society, as anyone else has the means to avoid conscription or coercion into signing a military contract.

          • By dmix 2023-01-0516:16

            The Russian government can source washing machines locally they don't need them coming from Ukraine strapped on the back of armoured vehicles

          • By gsich 2023-01-0517:31

            Propaganda, those chips won't be used anywhere else.

      • By dlgeek 2023-01-0515:001 reply

        Not OP, but TI manufactures in both the US and Asia and they also outsource some of their manufacturing. I assume the other companies are the same. I recognize about half of those manufacturers, and I'm not even into hardware.

        "Microcontrollers, voltage regulators, and digital signal controllers" are very much commodity parts that companies buy in huge bulk and are available pretty much everywhere. I'm not surprised to see them in a drone (Iranian or otherwise) because I'd expect to see them in ANY sort of complex electronics device - drone, car, washing machine, computer, child's interactive toy, you name it. Ditto for most of the other stuff.

        • By ethanbond 2023-01-0515:082 reply

          I'm pretty sure American companies are forbidden from selling things to Iran, regardless of where geographically those things are manufactured.

          Obviously just finding these parts doesn't mean necessarily they were sold directly by TI to Iran, for example, but it does raise questions that are not answered by "they were physically manufactured in China."

          • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0515:212 reply

            > I'm pretty sure American companies are forbidden from selling things to Iran...

            Sure, but they're most certainly permitted to sell to several billion other people on the planet, most of whom aren't under American jurisdiction. Some of those will be willing to shove the chips in a shipping container and send that on a boat to Iran for a reasonable fee.

            It'd be pretty insane for TI to be selling to Iran directly, and finding TI chips in Iran isn't evidence of it.

            • By nashashmi 2023-01-0515:384 reply

              Purchasers and users of US made parts are obligated to sign a contract that prohibits them from trading with North Korea and Iran (and Cuba?). That includes selling your iPhone.

              • By ClumsyPilot 2023-01-0517:171 reply

                > Purchasers and users of US made parts are obligated to sign a contract that prohibits them from trading with North Korea

                This is some kind of fantasy? I can go to a million websites or into a store with cash and I can buy microchips for $0.08 without signing any contract. What's next, you are going to keep track of nuts and bolts?

                https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/New-Original-In-Stock...

                https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lumissil/IS31CS8977-QFLS...

                • By nashashmi 2023-01-0520:41

                  It might be fantasy or it might be the mighty reach of the US government. The US has a trade org that controls EVERYTHING about materials made with US licensed or US developed technology. I think it is the US International Trade Commission.

              • By ajsnigrutin 2023-01-0516:021 reply

                I live in europe, and I bought many US chips (eg TI ones)... your regulation means nothing here, and i didn't sign any contract. You can literally go to a physical store and buy them off the shelf.

                • By johnchristopher 2023-01-0517:221 reply

                  How much can you buy and ship to NK until it raises a flag somewhere ?

                  • By ajsnigrutin 2023-01-0517:321 reply

                    NK is different.. you cannot even travel there normally without going through an agency.

                    But iran.. I don't know what their customs rules are but if you pay import fees, probably unlimited amounts.

                    How much you can buy? A lot.. eg. 10k voltage regulators is such a common order size, that they have a predefined lowered price even in online stores (without having to contact sales):

                    eg: https://si.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/l78l05acutr/v-reg-...

                    • By johnchristopher 2023-01-0517:461 reply

                      Sorry, my dumb-ass brain somehow pictured you walking in a supermarket, buying a bunch of TI calculators to rip off the interesting parts and ship them. Totally misread the conversation.

                      • By ajsnigrutin 2023-01-0517:59

                        Haha, no no, TI makes components too, and sells them by the thousands+ even to small customers :)

              • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0515:523 reply

                Cool. How enforcable is that contract in China on a non-American citizen operating a company that only exists for a few weeks on paper to facilitate the transaction?

                How hard would it be for Iran to open a shell company in third-party country like, say, Iraq to mask the transaction?

              • By kube-system 2023-01-0516:31

                That only affects the first purchaser. Once it's available from a street vendor in Shenzhen, anyone can get it.

            • By ethanbond 2023-01-0515:313 reply

              Finding TI chips in Iranian drones actually is evidence of it, albeit very very weak.

              On the flip side, "it'd be pretty insane" is not evidence at all. Companies do apparently insane things for money all the time!

              • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0515:342 reply

                Evidence supports a proposition.

                TI chips in Iran doesn't support the proposition that TI is directly violating sanctions by deliberately selling to Iran in violation of sanctions. There is no evidence of that.

                • By ethanbond 2023-01-0515:522 reply

                  Evidence eliminates alternative possibilities. The presence of any of these components eliminates the possibility that there are no TI components in Iran. And to reiterate: this is obviously nowhere near the standard required to take any action whatsoever, thus the "very very weak" designation.

                  • By ballenf 2023-01-0516:36

                    I have some large trees that produce a meaningful quantity of moles of oxygen and I've gotten wind that some of those particles are taking a circuitous route into the combustion engines of these drones.

                    Hate to admit it, but that's some damning evidence. Very, very weak fortunately.

                  • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0516:03

                    > Evidence eliminates alternative possibilities.

                    What? My DNA at a crime scene doesn't necessarily eliminate alternative possibilities, but it's still evidence.

                • By ClumsyPilot 2023-01-0517:20

                  A month ago there was a murder in a nearby restaurant. Bob and doesn't cook, and hasn't starved to death yet.

                  This evidence eliminates the possibility that Bob doesn't go to restaurants. Ladies and gentlemen, clearly Bob is the killer!

              • By lovich 2023-01-0515:381 reply

                That’s an incredible stretch of the term “evidence” when these are commodity parts involved in tens of thousands of not hundreds of thousands of parts of the supply chain. If the US found cutting edge components from US companies that were actually specialized and more rare you might have a point, but these are parts you can find in literally any electronic good. They are defined as electronics by using these electronic components.

              • By WFHRenaissance 2023-01-0515:451 reply

                >> Companies do apparently insane things for money all the time!

                The costs of violating OFAC far exceed ANY gain TI would see from selling to Iran. You're wrong. Stop posting and go read about the semiconductor supply chain.

                • By ethanbond 2023-01-0515:581 reply

                  I suppose this is why we never see examples of criminality where the possible penalties outweigh the possible gains?

                  And in any case, I agree with you. I am extremely doubtful that this is what's happening, I just think "the penalties are substantial" and "they were likely manufactured in China" are not evidence it's not happening. TI components in Iran are evidence (weak, weak, completely non-actionable!) evidence that it is happening.

                  • By lazide 2023-01-0518:26

                    The more plausible story is that some distributor somewhere sold a couple shipping containers worth of these commodity parts from a place that doesn’t really give a damn what the US says (except for making sure to fake some paperwork or whatever), like China. Or some random county in Eastern Europe. Or Africa.

                    They sell 100’s of millions of these parts to pretty much everyone, and they’re dirt cheap.

                    That TI ‘made them’ (not really, outsourced usually) then ‘sold them’ (not really, almost certainly. TI doesn’t do direct deals like that for pretty much anyone!) is a narrative that is pretty implausible considering how the supply chains actually work for these components.

          • By m4rtink 2023-01-0518:40

            Yeah - that can't be a good marketing and for positive brand recognition.

            Major brands already make a huge fuss what content their adds are displayed next to.

            So repeatedly having chips with your logo being pulled from the wreckage of a drone that just demolished an apartment building can't be good for PR either.

      • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0514:533 reply

        Just because it's an American company doesn't mean it's not made in China.

        https://pandaily.com/american-semiconductor-maker-texas-inst...

        > Texas Instruments entered China in 1986 and set up R&D centers and product line teams in Shanghai, Shenzhen and Beijing. The company also established a manufacturing base in Chengdu and two product distribution centers in the country.

        Chips are cheap, lightweight, and often made outside the US. They're pretty trivial to divert.

        • By jvanderbot 2023-01-0514:572 reply

          They don't need to be diverted. I don't think there's any restrictions on shipping to Iran these kinds of low level components. Are there?

          • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0515:01

            US companies are generally banned from doing any business with Iran, period.

            That, of course, won't stop someone in China from ordering a million chips from TI and shipping them to Iran (or Russia).

          • By lazide 2023-01-0518:28

            The nominal ‘manufacturers’ of the chips (TI) are forbidden from doing business with Iran.

            They’re so far from what happens on the ground though, who actually ends up with one of the chips in their hand has pretty much nothing to do with them.

        • By Maursault 2023-01-0516:152 reply

          This is a straw man argument. It is irrelevant where the parts are made. American companies sold them. Their logos are on the them. If Russians can get these parts anywhere, then let them get them elsewhere. American companies don't need to be accessories to killing Ukrainians.

          • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0516:191 reply

            > American companies sold them.

            First, we don't know that. It's not uncommon for Chinese manufacturers to make extra parts and sell them themselves. It's also not impossible that Iran or Russia obtained these from taking apart other devices, theft, or other means.

            Even if these chips generated revenue for TI, TI almost certainly didn't sell them to Iranian or Russian companies or representatives. They'll have been sold to an intermediary in a legal fashion, as far as TI was aware (or at the very least, with plausible deniability) at the time.

            • By Maursault 2023-01-0521:361 reply

              > First, we don't know that. It's not uncommon for Chinese manufacturers to make extra parts and sell them themselves.

              You're saying these parts could be designer imposters, like a Gucci purse. Chinese manufactures might copy the part. They wouldn't copy the logos because there is no reason to copy the logos.

              > It's also not impossible that Iran or Russia obtained these from taking apart other devices, theft, or other means.

              I need you to prepare yourself to be wrong, because this is just as unlikely. Russia doesn't think they're bad, so they're not going to try to make America look bad by associating with them. From Russia's point of view, that would be trying to make America look good, which they would never do.

              > Even if these chips generated revenue for TI, TI almost certainly didn't sell them to Iranian or Russian companies or representatives. They'll have been sold to an intermediary in a legal fashion, as far as TI was aware (or at the very least, with plausible deniability) at the time.

              If you sold ovens to an intermediary in 1941, and they sold them to a contractor who installed your ovens at Auschwitz, you'd really feel good about the money you made? Trust me, you wouldn't. It would make you sick, as it should if you are a member of our species.

              • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0522:03

                > They wouldn't copy the logos because there is no reason to copy the logos.

                I'm sorry, but that's simply ignorant. They literally do this all the time. Counterfeit chips are everywhere.

                https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/chip-shortages-lead-...

                > Russia doesn't think they're bad, so they're not going to try to make America look bad by associating with them.

                That wouldn't be the motivation. Russia is desperate for chips. They'll use any they can get their hands on.

                > If you sold ovens to an intermediary in 1941, and they sold them to a contractor who installed your ovens at Auschwitz, you'd really feel good about the money you made?

                If I had zero reason to believe they'd make their way to Germany when I sold them to someone in town, I'd be sad, but I certainly wouldn't feel culpable.

                In the case of Ukraine, pretty hefty sums of my taxes paid are being used to support them. I feel pretty OK with the balance of things there. Some thousands of dollars of microchips to Iran (unwillingly) versus tens of billions in weaponry and supplies to Ukraine (happily) maths out just fine.

          • By ilyt 2023-01-0517:051 reply

            Okay, how ? Manufacturer sells the parts to distributors. They can't just opt to not sell their parts to essentially entirety of china (via distributors located there).

            And even if they somehow exclude those, who stops someone in any other country from just setting up shell company and reexporting the chips ?

            • By lazide 2023-01-0518:41

              No one, practically.

        • By trasz3 2023-01-0514:59

          [dead]

      • By v8xi 2023-01-0515:001 reply

        I think the assumption that manufactured by US companies = within US borders is wrong. The US is no longer a manufacturing powerhouse.

        For example, from TI's website (https://careers.ti.com/locations/): "TI’s only comprehensive manufacturing site (is) located in Chengdu"

        • By Maursault 2023-01-0516:174 reply

          American companies literally sold these parts. Their logos are in the wreckage. That's the problem and not where things are made.

          • By chasd00 2023-01-0517:011 reply

            I don’t see what the big deal is. You could order a whole reel of voltage regulators off digikey and they’d fit in a backpack. There’s no way to stop the movement of low level ICs around the world no matter who/where they were produced. It would be like trying prevent Iran from getting a hold of American nails.

            • By Maursault 2023-01-0517:352 reply

              It isn't voltage regulators and ICs. The poster that said so just made that up. It's computer chips.

              • By deathanatos 2023-01-0518:311 reply

                > It isn't […] ICs. […] It's computer chips.

                "Chip" is the layman term for an integrated circuit, or IC.

              • By lazide 2023-01-0518:301 reply

                Voltage regulators and ICs are often chips.

                • By Maursault 2023-01-0518:461 reply

                  So are potato chips, that doesn't make them CPUs. This is called a category error.

                  • By lazide 2023-01-0519:201 reply

                    No, potato chips are not ‘chips’ in this context.

                    CPUs are a type of IC, commonly known as a ‘chip’ in this context. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit]

                    That’s called ‘not knowing what the definition of something is’.

                    • By Maursault 2023-01-0521:251 reply

                      ICs aren't necessarily CPUs.

                      • By lazide 2023-01-0522:25

                        But all CPUs are ICs - and hence chips.

                        Also, there are many voltage regulator ICs (and hence chips), and a great many other ICs (and hence chips) used in pretty much every piece of electronic equipment now a days.

                        Motor controllers, microprocessors, etc.

                        Literally even children’s stuffed toys have them.

          • By v8xi 2023-01-0518:391 reply

            I was only replying to "So less than 12 of the components were manufactured in Asia, while 40 have been manufactured by US companies." My point is that the nationality of a company has no bearing on where they manufacture their parts.

            But while yes these companies should bear responsibility if they are selling their parts to sanctioned countries, this is unlikely. There is just no way to track the real-time user of every commodity product - even if there were would you really want to live in that world?

            *edit grammar

            • By Maursault 2023-01-0518:55

              > There is just no way to track the real-time user of every commodity product

              This is somewhat of a tu quoque argument much like the many others here claiming these products are commonly supplied by many companies worldwide, and it will have absolutely no bearing on the reputations of the companies involved, nor can it remove their involvement in the violent deaths of innocent lives.

          • By nradov 2023-01-0516:411 reply

            Chinese manufacturers frequently make counterfeit parts and stamp fake US company logos on them. Even if the parts were authentic, they certainly weren't sold directly to Iran. Middlemen in other countries not under sanctions buy them, and then re-export them. There is literally no way for US companies to prevent this, they don't have that kind of reach or power.

            • By Maursault 2023-01-0517:411 reply

              It is astounding how posters here are bending over backwards to deny all responsibility. Russia is using American parts to kill Ukrainians. It doesn't matter where the parts were manufactured or how they got the parts. Why doesn't anyone here understand this?

              • By lazide 2023-01-0518:311 reply

                If someone picks up a brick and smashes someone’s head in, does it particularly matter who made the brick?

                Statistically, the most widely made bricks would be ‘at fault’. But how does that matter, exactly?

                You can try to ban bricks from your country, which hey, maybe it could happen. But if they were having a brick shortage, couldn’t they just buy the same bricks from a neighboring country, since these items are so cheap and common, it’s not like it’s possible to serialize and track each one.

                These are the electronic equivalents of bricks.

                • By Maursault 2023-01-0518:441 reply

                  If the brick has the company's logo on it, I'm sure it will be great for sales and general impressions. What is commonly believed, even if entirely wrong, can have detrimental effects. It certainly isn't a good thing what was discovered about Russian drones, and it certainly does matter. Remington didn't kill those children, and you can get guns anywhere, so you tell me why Remington settled for $73M. This is a very easy thing to understand. It is amazing how stubbornly dumb intelligent individuals can sometimes be.

                  • By lazide 2023-01-0519:171 reply

                    Bwahah. Folks do hit pieces all the time on companies to do some thing - extract some money (like with Remington), or try to force some change (like the Ukrainians trying to ‘name and shame’ companies to cause a larger chilling effect for suppliers and start folks like TI cracking down on their supply chain).

                    TI not manufacturing those chips won’t stop Iran using identical chips though. It’s one of many ‘try all the things’ tactics from a belligerent at war. And I can’t blame them for trying. I’m sure it will cause some minor issues here and there for Iran and Russia, and every little bit helps.

                    It’s still transparent bullshit and manipulation of the public.

                    The part I have to laugh at is arguments like this that take the manipulation at face value, and go after folks pointing out it’s bullshit on a technical site.

                    It would be like going on a Gun forum and going after folks pointing out the Remington smear campaigns (or any number of other manufacturers) was transparent bullshit to try to get cash or force them out of business by those ideologically opposed to them.

                    Like what do you expect but a bunch of folks going ‘that’s bullshit’?

                    • By Maursault 2023-01-0521:281 reply

                      Remington was not forced to settle. Remington chose to settle.

                      • By lazide 2023-01-0522:17

                        What is your point exactly?

                        They chose to settle after sufficient pressure and wild accusations were brought to bear publicly no?

                        If the lawsuit was kept confidential and not turned into a high profile socio-political football being used to target them, then I think you might have a point, as the case could be about matters of law and fact.

                        But it wasn’t, was it?

                        One would call that ‘forced’ in most contexts. If it wasn’t in the context of an active lawsuit, perhaps even extortion. But lawyers get a pass for this, of course.

          • By lazide 2023-01-0518:291 reply

            If I buy an iPhone from someone on eBay, did Apple sell me that iPhone?

            Pretty sure no one would think they did.

            But it does have their logo on it!

            • By Maursault 2023-01-0521:271 reply

              And if that iPhone was somehow utilized in genocide, would that be bad for eBay, or Apple? Or not bad? Good!

              • By lazide 2023-01-0522:25

                One would hope we’d blame the one doing the genocide?

                Unless of course Apple sent a container of free iPhone’s after they’d laid out their genocidal plan. So far zero indication that’s happened though, right?

                Or is that too much to ask now a days?

                This entire thread is the height of ridiculous absurdity.

      • By waihtis 2023-01-0514:471 reply

        I live in Finland, and Russians have been found looting electronics from the recycling centers over here, supposedly because they need the components back in the motherland. So theoretically they are also using western components but it is not like anyone actually sold these components to the russians.

        • By bbbbb5 2023-01-0515:072 reply

          This is an obviously fake story. Similar to the consumer drone panic that's been going on in the Nordics.

          A few months ago all the Nordic medias seemed convinced that this guy with his "4 terabytes of encrypted data" must have been a Russian spy, of course that turned out to not be true. (Russia has satellites, the idea that they'd need people to go scout out Nordic infrastructure with consumer drones was and is preposterous)

          https://www.vg.no/nyheter/i/xgJ238/dronedoemt-russer-til-vg-...

          • By mannerheim 2023-01-0515:401 reply

            Except Russia has had spies do precisely that in the past in Estonia? They even did a prisoner exchange for a guy who got caught.

            > An unredacted five-page document tells a fuller story than anything Zinchenko offered in our four hours together. Vasily was one of three different handlers over the space of his eight years as a GRU agent. (Zinchenko would tell me only that Vasily introduced him to another man with whom he’d sometimes communicate.) He’d meet with each one face-to-face at liaisons in St. Petersburg, only a five-hour car or bus ride from Tallinn. Each handler tasked him with surveilling Estonia’s “objects of national defense” and its “vital services,” defined under Estonian law as critical infrastructure, power and electricity, telecommunications and banking services.

            > Zinchenko spied on Paldiski, a garrison town where Estonia’s elite Scouts Battalion, a veteran unit of both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, was stationed. He also spied on Vasalemma, where NATO’s Ämari Air Base is located.

            https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-ex-russian-spy-flees-to-the...

            • By bbbbb5 2023-01-0515:481 reply

              This is typical busy work given to agents to make them feel important, to test their loyalty and ability to accomplish tasks provided. For the most part, it's not actually supposed to result in useful intelligence.

              Also there's a huge difference between tracking military equipment movements and power infrastructure. Power infrastructure doesn't move and can't really be hidden.

              • By mannerheim 2023-01-0515:494 reply

                Apparently valuable enough to do a prisoner exchange for.

                I also doubt the quality of the optics in Russian satellites.

                • By LarryMullins 2023-01-0516:501 reply

                  > I also doubt the quality of the optics in Russian satellites.

                  Uh, why? I can understand doubting the electronics in their satellites, but the mirrors? Why do you think Russia can't polish mirrors?

                  • By mannerheim 2023-01-0517:421 reply

                    The US is so tight-lipped about its spy satellites, even the resolution of their images are classified, and it forces US commercial satellite operators to degrade image resolution as well. Maybe I'm wrong, but if it were trivial to do, then someone should launch a satellite imaging startup outside of US jurisdiction.

                    • By LarryMullins 2023-01-0518:03

                      > even the resolution of their images are classified

                      Yeah, but physics isn't. Good resolution requires large mirrors. Large mirrors require large satellites. These aren't cubesats we're talking about; optical American spy satellites have 2.4 meter wide mirrors and are more than 10 meters long. The only non-US/Chinese/Russian rocket that can launch such a satellite in principle is the Ariane 5, but AFAIK they don't fly that to polar orbits.

                      In any case, not many people have the equipment laying around to make such large mirrors, or the expertise, or a stockpile of such mirrors. Russia likely has all three, or certainly once did.

                • By bbbbb5 2023-01-0516:131 reply

                  >Apparently valuable enough to do a prisoner exchange for.

                  You don't do prisoner exchanges because of the valuable contributions of that agent, you do prisoner exchanges to ensure future contributions by other agents.

                  >I also doubt the quality of the optics in Russian satellites.

                  They're just fine. What kind of quality do you think they need to hit a power plant with a missile? Most of their missiles aren't that precise anyway.

                  There's only an extremely limited set of circumstances where drone footage of power infrastructure could be useful.

                  • By mannerheim 2023-01-0516:271 reply

                    In any event, Russia does send spies to do precisely what you insisted they don't.

                    • By bbbbb5 2023-01-0517:01

                      Your article says nothing about the nature of the surveillance. It does not in any way dispute my previous comments.

                • By ithkuil 2023-01-0516:131 reply

                  Nepotism can provide an alternative explanation for prisoner exchange even if the actual task was literally busywork

                  • By bbbbb5 2023-01-0516:18

                    If it was about nepotism, we'd presumably be talking about an officer and not an agent.

                • By denton-scratch 2023-01-0516:47

                  > I also doubt the quality of the optics in Russian satellites.

                  Doesn't Leica have a reputation for world-beating optics?

          • By waihtis 2023-01-0516:292 reply

            > This is an obviously fake story

            Yet you provide no data to convince anyone otherwise. Outside of scrap, also electronics stores over here have signs now which denote the amount of electronics you can carry over the border into the Russia (not exceeding the value of 300€) which suggests there is a reason to do so.

            Related to your article, if something sounds ridiculous it's the explanation given in your article of the unemployed man travelling from Russia to take drone pictures of a cottage for a friend. Very reminiscient of the two "tourists" "just visiting" Salisbury.

            • By bbbbb5 2023-01-0517:051 reply

              > Outside of scrap, also electronics stores over here have signs now which denote the amount of electronics you can carry over the border into the Russia (not exceeding the value of 300€) which suggests there is a reason to do so.

              Yeah, sanctions. Luxury goods are limited to 300 euros. https://tulli.fi/en/-/import-and-export-sanctions-on-goods-a...

              The purpose is not to disrupt Russian military supply chains, but to make Muscovites pay higher prices for their grey market iPhones.

              >Related to your article, if something sounds ridiculous it's the explanation given in your article of the unemployed man travelling from Russia to take drone pictures of a cottage for a friend. Very reminiscient of the two "tourists" "just visiting" Salisbury.

              The Norwegian government agreed that his story checked out. Also, I'd suppose that wealthy unemployed men make up a decent chunk of tourism in general.

              • By waihtis 2023-01-0519:581 reply

                The purpose of sanctions is not only to limit access to luxury, but also to restrict things that are loosely considered dual use "things", such as components that can be repurposed to be part of military purposes - see https://ek.fi/ajankohtaista/uutiset/venaja-pakotteet-qa-vast... section 8) since you seem to be fluent in Finnish

                • By gggggg5 2023-01-0520:14

                  Your previous comment is exclusively observing the effect of sanctions on luxury goods.

                  You generally can't buy the mentioned dual-use goods in your local electronics store. Look up the "EU dual use control list", it mostly covers exotic stuff like electronics adapted to operate in extreme (temperature, radiation) environments.

            • By Scoundreller 2023-01-0517:05

              I totally believe Russians importing broken/used electronic stuff, but I completely believe it’s because throwaway culture hasn’t caught on as much there.

              Could be due to culture, skill or poverty/economics. Or all three.

              At least on aliexpress, reviews for random spare parts/components are often from Russians.

      • By coredog64 2023-01-0516:27

        I can speak directly to onsemi as I’m a former employee. While ONN is a US company, they manufacture a significant number of parts in Malaysia. ONN does have onshore fabs, but they’re expensive and are only used for their specialized, high cost components.

        When I was there, the US fabs were selling parts used in iPhones, Zunes, and XBoxen.

      • By sschueller 2023-01-0514:583 reply

        "No weapon or weapon systems One of the central pillars of the u-blox Code of Conduct is our position on the non-integration of our products into weapons and weapon systems. This policy is in place since 2002."

        https://www.u-blox.com/en/code-of-conduct

        Well someone f'd up but it probably was a resale later down the chain.

        • By ilyt 2023-01-0517:06

          Well if anything it shows how utterly fucking useless code of conduct is

        • By diydsp 2023-01-0516:52

          And probably done through a chain of shell companies and other laundering and smuggling methods. We can't keep them all out of Russia/Iran. It's just about minimizing.... ... and writing your code with best practices so it can be ported to whatever hardware trickles over the border ;)

        • By bsder 2023-01-0518:36

          U-Blox modules aren't just random parts. Someone is going to get found and is going to jail.

      • By ilyt 2023-01-0516:471 reply

        Most of them were probably manufactured in Asia just for american companies.

        Also nothing here really looks like something irreplaceable. A bunch of compute[1], the standard supporting chips (power, sensor interfaces etc.), I think only thing that might be problematic to replace are some high end analog stuff. The microcontroller on the photo

        Point being they could probably get by just with chinese chips, just picked the "vanilla option" because it's easier to read datasheet in english than in chinese.

        About only thing that would be hard to get off top of my head would be fast thermal cameras, as US for the long time limits anything consumer/export to low framerate and I'm not sure whether china does any of their own that are available.

        > Also discovered were components built by International Rectifier – now owned by the German company Infineon – and the Swiss company U-Blox.

        I'm guessing first one is some diodes/power transistors and such (easily replaceable) and U-blox I think just provides ready-to-go modules so less of a "part" more of a "module" made of stuff also from asia.

        Point being blocking exports wouldn't exactly do much unless China also closed borders; it would be far too easy for 3rd party company to just... buy what is needed and get it in via china with other chips.

        * [1] https://www.ti.com/product/TMS320F28232/part-details/TMS320F...

      • By adrian_b 2023-01-0514:554 reply

        An US label on a component means nothing.

        Even when the silicon chips are really made in USA, in most cases the packaging and testing are done in SE Asia, from where they go to the customers.

        • By ajsnigrutin 2023-01-0516:04

          Even if they are made in USA, a company can buy them and resell them at will, because US regulation doesn't apply outside of US... so someone from china can order 10k chips and do whatever they want with them.

        • By newsclues 2023-01-0516:42

          "An US label on a component means nothing."

          Until you are regulated by ITAR.

          https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/01/23/2020-00...

        • By m4rtink 2023-01-0518:49

          Regardless of the circumstances, it means bad PR for the companies and countries involved.

        • By Maursault 2023-01-0516:211 reply

          > An US label on a component means nothing.

          Don't be so naive. It means everything, because when American company logos are found on parts in drone wreckage surrounded by dead and mutilated Ukrainians, it makes those companies accessories to this illegal Russian war, and by extension and association, the United States, and me and you!

          • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0519:141 reply

            If you steal a knife from my house, and stab someone with it, am I an accessory to the crime because it's my knife? No.

            Texas Instruments isn't at fault if someone buys their chips legally, but turns around and resells them to the Russians. That'd be an insane standard to set, both ethically and legally.

            If an American company is deliberately selling components to Russia, by all means, nail them to the wall for violating sanctions. That's not what has happened here, though.

            • By Maursault 2023-01-0521:071 reply

              > If you steal a knife from my house, and stab someone with it, am I an accessory to the crime because it's my knife? No.

              You are employing the fallacy of poor analogy. These parts weren't stolen. And if you sold a weapon to a murderer, or even if you failed to reasonably secure your weapon and it was stolen, then by common morality and even case law, you bear some responsibility.[1]

              [1] https://archive.ph/66H7Q

              • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0521:141 reply

                > These parts weren't stolen.

                We actually don't know that, yet.

                > And if you sold a weapon to a murderer, or even if you failed to reasonably secure your weapon and it was stolen

                There's no indication either of these things happened, either.

                As the article says:

                "There is no evidence suggesting that any of those companies are running afoul of US sanctions laws and knowingly exporting their technology to be used in the drones. Even with many companies promising increased monitoring, controlling where these highly ubiquitous parts end up in the global market is often very difficult for manufacturers, experts told CNN."

                The part pictured is a TMS320F28335PGFA. You can get 'em in trays of 240 for $10/chip on Alibaba and any number of other places that a) aren't TI and b) don't care about US law.

                • By Maursault 2023-01-0521:232 reply

                  You're still missing the point like you can't hit the side of a barn. It has nothing whatsoever to do with American companies doing anything wrong or punishing them. America is punished. Trying to escape responsibility is utterly impossible. It already happened. American parts in wreckage of Russian drone strikes is undeniable. It's bad. Endlessly trying to make excuses is childish, narcissistic and callous.

                  • By ceejayoz 2023-01-0521:26

                    > It has nothing whatsoever to do with American companies doing anything wrong or punishing them.

                    OK, but you said this:

                    > it makes those companies accessories to this illegal Russian war

                    Is being an accessory to the Russian aggression not wrong?

                    > American parts in wreckage of Russian drone strikes is undeniable.

                    I mean, sure, but the Russians are using Ukranian-made arms and aircraft, too; that doesn't make the Ukranians complicit in the Russian aggression. Ukraine used to be a major arms supplier to the entire Soviet and post-Soviet sphere of influence.

                    Your standard for "responsibility" is bizarre. The balance of US involvement in Ukraine is extremely heavily on the side of good, and it'd stay that way even if TI had knowingly had anything to do with these drones.

                  • By nradov 2023-01-0522:16

                    Nonsense. The US isn't being punished.

      • By Gordonjcp 2023-01-0517:36

        So stuff you can just buy in big bags for a couple of quid from eBay or Aliexpress?

      • By cdkmoose 2023-01-0518:12

        I don't think that "manufactured by 13 different American companies" necessarily means manufactured in America. Apple "manufactures" IPhones, but not in America

      • By hulitu 2023-01-0520:00

        And where do you think Texas Instruments, NXP USA Inc, Analog Devices and Onsemi, International Rectifier manufacture components ?

        And Digikey, for example. Can ship to a lot of countries.

      • By LargoLasskhyfv 2023-01-0611:06

        What is meant by 'manufactured'? Like Apple being an american company, but products manufactured by whomever, whereever?

        Dig deeper!

      • By atkailash 2023-01-0517:10

        [dead]

      • By miroljub 2023-01-0515:064 reply

        > Of the 52 components Ukrainians removed from the Iranian Shahed-136 drone, 40 appear to have been manufactured by 13 different American companies, according to the assessment.

        > The remaining 12 components were manufactured by companies in Canada, Switzerland, Japan, Taiwan, and China, according to the assessment.

        Not a single component produced in Russia? Somehow strange that a country that can send people to space and back is not capable of producing a single component for a military drone.

        > According to the Ukrainian assessment

        Ah, ok. So the source is trustworthy and objective, not a war party telling whatever they have to tell to support their cause.

        • By eunos 2023-01-0515:332 reply

          Russia was strong in MechE and material science but surprisingly weak on electronic. I think Warsaw Pact's electronic workhorse was East Germany, especially Dresden.

        • By cpursley 2023-01-0515:18

          This article is talking about the Iranian made drones not the domestic Russian ones. The Russian made stuff still has western parts but also domestic.

        • By mannerheim 2023-01-0515:252 reply

          Russia and the USSR before it has never had the ability to manufacture good electronics. iirc their smallest process node is 65nm.

          Modern optics are absolutely out of the question, which is why their Orlan drones have been found with consumer cameras for their optics.

        • By practice9 2023-01-0515:58

          > Somehow strange that a country that can send people to space and back is not capable of producing a single component for a military drone.

          Soyuz (as in both rocket and capsule) has had multiple failures over the last decade. The most recent was the coolant leak a few weeks ago that made the capsule unusable for a safe return to Earth. Under Rogozin their space industry degraded very quickly (probably one of the reasons why Rogozin was fired last year).

          It's been known for some time that Russia gets components for its hi-tech weapons via a network of proxy companies in EU.

          > So the source is trustworthy and objective, not a war party telling whatever they have to tell to support their cause.

          US and Israel officials are clearly taking these reports seriously

    • By pjc50 2023-01-0515:26

      They're "from" the US companies, but not directly. There's already issues with counterfeiting (you order TI parts and get something else); this is the reverse, where the parts are bought by some kind of "straw buyer" in a neutral country and then resold to Iran.

      It's tricky. It would require a huge amount of surveillance to prevent it from happening, or an even more aggressive physical blockade of Iran. And of course there's always the possibility of China->Russia->Iran shipment by air.

    • By Maursault 2023-01-0516:04

      Was on national news broadcast last night. American company logos are on these parts. It's the chips they need, and I hope now they will be starved of them.

    • By PedroBatista 2023-01-0514:441 reply

      Can you provide the list of the actual parts?

      • By treis 2023-01-0515:18

        Can't seem to find it with a brief google search. But a story like this came out ~6 months ago and the components were all off the shelf microprocessors, sensors, and similar electronics.

    • By wildrhythms 2023-01-0514:47

      The article specifically says 'manufactured' by American companies; I'm not sure how the geographic location of the factory is relevant.

      >Of the 52 components Ukrainians removed from the Iranian Shahed-136 drone, 40 appear to have been manufactured by 13 different American companies, according to the assessment.

  • By tshadley 2023-01-0516:383 reply

    The context missed by the article is that Iranian drones are crude, low-tech, and cheap by most military standards, hence, made with only the cheapest and most widely available parts.

    The article below estimates the Shahed-136 at $20,000. The Mohajer-6 probably isn't that much more.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-iranian-made-killer-drones...

    But that's the economic-warfare genius of cheap drones: it [might] cost as much $500,000 to shoot down a $20,000 drone.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/suicide-drones-much-cheaper-...

    • By stefan_ 2023-01-0517:271 reply

      You might be surprised, from the pictures of the insides the Shahed drones have a software-defined radio (SDR) in them with a decently beefy FPGA and presumably some other similarly expensive chips on the analog side.

      Certainly for the FPGA side you can make the case that these things are actually very, very rare in true consumer products (anything that sells in numbers they are the first thing to go off the BOM, at all costs). But they power an overwhelming number of military gadgets that don't have the unit numbers to be sensitive to their cost.

      So yeah, today FPGA are an utter commodity item that are impossible to trace. But if you want sanctions like these to work, they probably shouldn't be.

      The SDR for reference: https://i.imgur.com/oyexLez.jpg

      • By m4rtink 2023-01-0518:00

        I guess its using an FPGA as a foreign foundry won't fab something a custom one-way UAV signal processing chip for a sanctioned country & they don't have the technology to fab it themselves ?

        And a discrete component version might not be realistically doable or too heavy/expensive.

    • By leg0m4n 2023-01-0516:531 reply

      They are currently mostly using machine guns mounted on LAT to shoot down Shaheds + tuned the detection system to figure out their location(crowdsourcing through app). That's why Iranian drones kinda stopped being a problem at all recently. And other valuable weaponry is spent more wisely rn.

      • By rainworld 2023-01-0517:382 reply

        Ukrainians claiming something doesn’t make it true. The effects speak for themselves.

        Here's an example of “air defense doing it's job” that somehow ends with an explosion on the ground and lights going out: https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1610326116757114880

        • By Mikeb85 2023-01-0611:441 reply

          That video literally shows nearly a dozen objects being blown up. Yes, one makes it through and causes damage. No air defense is 100% unfortunately.

          It also shows how shitty Russia is, continuing to bomb Kyiv when it's far from any military objective. And shows why we need to expedite Ukraine's victory.

          • By rainworld 2023-01-0616:00

            That video shows various air defense systems trying and likely failing to intercept anything. Air bursts are not interceptions.

        • By ptnxlo 2023-01-0618:43

          "Ukrainians claiming something doesn’t make it true"

          Claiming what specifically?

          "Here's an example of ..."

          From how many examples? And what exactly do you see it's happening on the only video?

          Asking just to understand what's the point you're trying to make.

    • By enkid 2023-01-0516:59

      Most of the cost of operating a $20k drone probably isn't the drone itself. Think transportation, maintenance, crew training, caring, and feeding, development, etc.

  • By NathanielBaking 2023-01-0515:15

    Looking for better information on exactly what components were on the board I found these references:

    contains many references to pictures and such. https://isis-online.org/isis-reports/detail/iranian-drones-i...

    Most remarkably https://twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1577619774292606976

    I think to understand the problem you need to see a list of components that are being used but also to understand that substitution is relatively easy in today's world of cross platform embedded systems. I have ordered many of these boards from places like DigiKey and Mouser. Here is on example:

    https://os.mbed.com/platforms/

    Many of these boards are capable of providing the flight control systems for these drones.

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