This is an essay.It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not…
This is an essay. It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints. |
This page in a nutshell:
|
I have edited thousands of articles so that they do not contain the phrase "comprised of". Edit summaries for those edits usually refer to this page.
This page explains the purpose of these edits and the project in general.
It is undisputed that the original meaning of the word was to include or contain, as in, "The 9th district comprises all of Centerville and parts of Easton and Weston." The whole comprises the parts; the parts are comprised in the whole. The etymology of the word doesn't support any other conclusion. But going back at least hundreds of years, people have been using it backwards, in the sense that the parts comprise the whole or the whole is comprised of the parts. This yields, "The 9th district is comprised of all of Centerville and parts of Easton and Weston." Or even, "All of Centerville and parts of Easton and Weston comprise the 9th district." This is apparently because "comprise" sounds a lot like "compose"; one might hear "the whole is composed of the parts" and "the whole comprises the parts" and merge the two in one's mind.
But this early usage was just negligent; it was always corrected by more skilled writers. We know that because for most of those hundreds of years, usage remained at the same very low level. It was like "could of done" is today. There is a traditional saying to help people avoid the error: "The whole comprises the parts; the parts compose the whole."
And then the 1960s happened, and forcing unnecessary rules on people for things like grammar fell out of favor. In these years, we see use of the phrase "comprised of" skyrocket, and it has continued to increase since then. Ultimately, the usage was accepted enough that dictionaries recognized "compose" as a secondary meaning of "comprise". But the language purists never gave up. While they wouldn't force others to stick to the original meaning, they did not use the reverse sense in their own writing, or anything they were responsible for. They presumably disliked reading it as well. Merriam-Webster's usage expert remarks that it is extraordinary how people have clung to traditional comprise -- English usually changes more easily. Usage guides and style manuals consequently always tell you not everyone accepts comprise for compose, so the best advice is to avoid it.
Nonetheless, people today learn language by copying it more than by studying linguistics, and the reverse usage of comprise is at least as common as the original, so that a great many people today are not even aware comprise ever meant anything but compose. Usage guides have softened considerably over the years, in some cases from "write this and everyone will know you're ignorant" to "there's nothing really wrong with this, but your more perfectionist readers think there is, and you need to accommodate them."
I believe using "comprised of" is poor writing, because
Fowler's Modern English Usage, in its various editions, is one of the most widely respected style guides for English. Fowler's is fairly liberal in accepting usage that is popular even if it goes against previous guidance—it embraces language evolution. Nonetheless, the 1999 edition, published 30 years after the great expansion of "comprised of", is unequivocal that "comprise" should not be used for "compose", "consist", or "constitute". It says, "It is even less correct to confuse 'comprise' with 'consist' and adopt a hybrid construction 'comprise of' or 'be comprised of'".
Paul Brians in his book Common Errors In English Usage recommends against using the phrase, while acknowledging that some people don't mind it.
The Grammar Slammer editing tool by English Plus says the whole always comprises the parts.
Jack Lynch's Guide to Grammar and Style advises to avoid "is comprised of".
According to Dr Grammar's Frequently Asked Questions, "comprised of" is always wrong.
Writer Travis Bradberry identified comprise in 2015 as one of 20 words whose misuse "makes smart people look dumb". He placed comprise/compose confusion in the same class as "accept/except" confusion.
Tim Ross gives another good explanation about what's incorrect about "comprised of" on his talk page, complete with references.
In August 2007, a Wikipedia Manual Of Style discussion covered this. This discussion includes rare advice from one Wikipedian to prefer "comprised of" — but only in preference to "comprises".
Jonathon Owen describes some research he did into historical usage. He also explains that "comprised of" is technically wrong, but says he has "given up" and accepts the phrase.
A usage note in the Merriam-Webster dictionary notes that a writer "may be subject to criticism" for using "comprised of" and suggests alternative wording for that reason. It notes that in spite of being in use for over a hundred years, it is still attacked as wrong, but says it isn't clear why the attackers have singled out this usage. Opposition has long been declining; in the 1960s, 53 percent of American Heritage Dictionary's expert Usage Panel found the wording unacceptable; in 1996, only 35 percent objected; by 2011, it had fallen a bit more, to 32 percent (quoted here). OED usage note calls it "part of standard English".
As explained elsewhere in this essay, dictionaries for the most part do not comment on usage, but just give facts about how a word is used.
There are at least several bots on Twitter that scan the Twittersphere for "comprised of" and admonish the tweeter. One such is EngrishPorice, which deals in a long list of common English mistakes. Here, "comprised of" finds itself in the company of "could care less", "should of", "your going", and "Brussel sprouts".
I know of only one argument actively for the use of "comprised of" instead of its various alternatives: elegant variation. Elegant variation is the idea of using multiple phrasings for the same thing in a piece of writing to avoid tiring the reader with repetition. Sports announcers are famous for using this as they use dozens of ways to say "beat" in running down a list of scores. So "comprised of" can be a useful variation in a paragraph that already uses all the alternatives. This argument is inapplicable, though, in something like an encyclopedia, where clarity is more important than euphony. Where clarity is important, it is important to use consistent terminology, so elegant variation is a bad thing.
I have seen one argument that "comprised of" beats "comprises" in particular, because the latter is ambiguous. That ambiguity happens when you 1) admit another misuse of the verb "to comprise", and 2) use a plural where you shouldn't. In another case of "comprise" being used opposite of its natural sense, "to comprise" means to "constitute", as in "Three states comprise the Pacific Northwest." With that usage considered, the phrase "phyla comprise classes" can mean either that phylum is above class in the taxonomy of living things or that class is above phylum. "phyla are comprised of classes" is unambiguous. But so is "a phylum comprises classes", which is also clearer.
This essay wouldn't be complete if I didn't report that I've known a few people to claim that "comprised of" has a distinct meaning different from all of the alternatives. But I hesitate to mention it, because none of those people have enunciated what the unique meaning is, or provided any reason to believe that it's a meaning commonly understood by other readers. I have yet to see a dictionary that says "comprise" in that context is anything but a synonym of "compose" or "consist" or a usage guide that says anything but "don't".
I have heard several times the argument that "comprised of" is better than "composed of" in an article about music. The argument is that in a music context, "compose" refers to writing music, so "comprised of" is a less confusing wording when you mean the regular "composed of". This does not, of course, argue for "comprised of" in general, because there are lots of other alternatives to "composed of". But a bigger objection I have to that argument is that I think musicians actually do mean the traditional "compose" when they speak of writing music. They are putting notes together to make something bigger. I think they apply that same art when they put together an album or a band, so that "the album is composed of live recordings" or "the band is composed of former blues singers" should evoke the same thoughts as "she composed the song on a ukulele".
Besides the active arguments above, I know several arguments that "comprised of" is as good as the alternatives, and arguments that one shouldn't edit out the phrase from existing articles.
As we can see in a web search, there are a great number of people who are perfectly fine with "comprised of". In fact, many of them have never heard that there's a problem with it. Dictionaries list it.
The prevalence argument does very little for me -- I don't see grammar as a majority rule thing. The prevalence would have to be about 99% for me to accept it as valid (though still unfortunate) usage. Bear in mind that a great many people write "could of", yet few people who study the issue argue this is a Wikipedia-worthy way to say "could have".
The dictionary argument also fails to hit the mark, because the function of a dictionary isn't to tell you what is OK to use in any particular writing. It merely tells you what people mean when they do use a word. The only time the dictionary gives you permission to write something is when you're playing Scrabble. The dictionary can help us build a prevalence argument (see above), but then we have to take note that no dictionary lists "compose" as the primary definition of comprise, and isn't it better to use words with their primary definitions where we can?
Another rebuttal argument says that the incorrectness of "comprised of" is a thing of the past -- that English has evolved to include this new usage, as it evolved to accept "he goes" in place of "he goeth". This argument says people who don't accept "comprised of" just haven't gotten the word yet.
But "comprised of" is nowhere near that status, and it might never be. Webster's dictionary says the phrase has been in use since the 1700s, and it still hasn't managed to win over everyone. American Heritage notes that the fraction of its usage experts accepting the phrase has been trending upward in the past few decades, and an analysis of the Google Books Corpus in 2012 shows a distinct upward trend, but it still has a way to go before we can put it in the same class with "he goes".
Some people rebut the argument that "comprised of" is illogical with a claim that English is inherently illogical, so it doesn't matter. They are no doubt thinking of the copious other illogical features of English that are not only universally accepted, but unavoidable. One needn't look further than irregular verbs to see this. But the pain caused by all those quirks obscures the fact that English is really more logical than not. If human languages were not fundamentally structured and logical, we probably wouldn't even have a word for grammar. In any case, 1,000 illogical constructions is better than 1,001, so in deciding whether to accept a particular construction, it is worth considering logic.
I've even heard a specific rebuttal to the idea that it's bad for "comprise" to have two opposite meanings, because there are other words that do. Take "dust", for example, which can mean to remove dust or to apply it. The "1,000 is better than 1,001" argument applies here, but I also find that only one of the other auto-antonyms is actually opposite in grammatical construction, with agent and object reversed. If "Bob rents a house", Bob might be either the landlord or the tenant, but in the spirit of "comprised of", Bob might also be the property.
The auto-antonym that is structurally like "comprise" is "possess". One sometimes hears "John is possessed of a special talent", where "is possessed of" means "possesses", just like "is comprised of" is used to mean "comprises". The origin of this reversal is quite different from that of "comprise", based on an old legal status of "possession". Putting someone into or out of this status was called "possessing" of "dispossessing" the person of the property. The important point is that there is no rule demonstrated -- both of these reverse usages are unique and we are unlikely ever to see, "This bag is contained of (i.e. contains) six apples" or "the blade makes (i.e. is made of) titanium".
The arguments for leaving "comprised of" alone often point out that my edits will not erase the phrase from the language, make people stop using it, or prevent its eventual evolution into undisputed correct English. I agree with all of that, and I don't see how it makes a difference. Those things have never been goals of mine.
Other arguments take the "waste of time" form. I won't offer a rebuttal of that, because an individual editor's allocation of his time shouldn't be anyone else's concern.
Here, I'm not talking about how people deal with seeing the phrase or how they elect to write personally, but what people do when they have to make a policy for publication.
You know what my policy for Wikipedia is.
Another encyclopedia widely viewed as a standard of excellence for the genre is Encyclopædia Britannica. A search in June 2009 for the phrase "comprises three" turns up 65 hits. "is comprised of three" gets zero. So "Comprised of" is probably formally prohibited in that work.
I believe virtually all major English language newspapers have style guidelines that prohibit "comprised of", as do other edited publications.[1]
Wikipedia does not have a policy or guideline on whether "comprised of" is welcome in the encyclopedia. People sometimes say there should be one, and some state a related opinion that until there is, nobody should remove "comprised of" from an article. But that just isn't how Wikipedia works. A Wikipedia article gets its grammar and style the same place it gets its facts: from the editing public. Each editor applies his own judgment in adding material, and in reviewing and modifying existing material. Disputes sometimes develop, and there are procedures for dealing with those. In general, an article ends up reading however the majority of people who care want it to read. Even spelling is crowdsourced on Wikipedia.
Wikipedia does have a style manual, but it focuses on technical presentation - things like punctuation. Because more traditional publications do have style manuals that dictate grammar and word usage, people sometimes propose additions to Wikipedia's to do the same, and the proposals are always rejected.
It has been suggested that "comprised of" is a regional thing, like the spelling of "color" or the phrase "figure out"/"work out". But I don't think there is any regional variation in the acceptability of the phrase — I think there are people who accept it and people who despise it in all regions.
It's easy to understand how this claim arises: when an Australian tells a Canadian that a phrase he has been using all his life is wrong, the easiest way for the Canadian to reconcile that is to conclude that the problem is unique to Australia. And it certainly ends an argument quickly — how many people are versed in the fine points of both Canadian and Australian English?
The point is really moot, though, because of two things: 1) readers from all over the world read Wikipedia, and wherever we can use a common language, we should. In spelling "color", we can't, but in using "comprise", we can. 2) Most of the arguments I make above for avoiding "comprised of" in Wikipedia are based not on how many people find the phrase discordant, but logic. Logic is the same in all regions.
But it is an interesting question nonetheless. One person from New Zealand told me that "comprised of" is not disputed in New Zealand. In May 2011, an anonymous editor wrote in Wiktionary that the objection to "comprised of" is only in "North American English" and that the phrase is fully accepted in "British English". In the year after that, several people referred me to that Wiktionary article as authority for that fact.
The only sources cited by Wiktionary were other more respected dictionaries, and I explained above what those dictionaries tell us. It is true that comparing the standard UK dictionary, Oxford, with the standard US ones, Webster's and American Heritage, one finds Oxford slightly more positive about "comprised of" than the other two. The only thing Oxford has negative to say about it is that that meaning is not the "primary" meaning of "comprise".
But I wanted some actual evidence of the anonymous Wiktionary claim, so I did a study of Wikipedia in June 2012. It was not extensive and there was plenty of room for error, but it indicated to my satisfaction that "comprised of" is not more accepted in British English. I edited the Wiktionary article to reflect that.
My study was as follows. I looked at several hundred random articles whose topic had special appeal to residents of some particular English speaking place. For example, an article about a highway in California is especially appealing to a resident of California. I divided those between the British Isles and everywhere else. The British Isles had 29%. I then made the same analysis of articles which contained the phrase "comprised of", either in its own text or in a quote or citation. (I excluded 35 articles about the New Jersey public school system, because they all contain a "comprised of" from the same source). The British Isles had 14% of the "comprised of" articles. The math indicates writers in that region are 2.5 times less likely than writers everywhere else to use the disputed phrase.
My subjective feeling that comes from years of editing Wikipedia is that the distribution of "comprised of" matches the distribution of speakers of English.
One area where I know from my work on Wikipedia "comprise" is more likely to be used in its reverse senses is articles about India. Those contain not only lots of "comprised of", but the even less accepted usages, "comprises of" and "yesterday it comprised of A, B, and C". However, I can't tell whether that indicates the reverse senses are generally accepted in India or there are just a lot of less skilled writers of English in India, where many writers speak another language primarily. The same articles typically are replete with other instances of irregular grammar that I've never heard of being accepted anywhere.
I am one of the people who consider "comprised of" poor English. But that's not why I edit it out; I don't edit Wikipedia for personal taste. The fact that lots of other people feel the same way is what makes it seem like a good edit to me.
As one who subscribes to the anti-comprised-of doctrine described above, I can tell you it triggers the same "what an idiot" neurons in us as "could of" and "could care less". If I can spare any readers that discomfort without hurting anyone else, why wouldn't I?
Furthermore, many of us are not as sympathetic as I am to people who call "comprised of" OK. These readers may consider the occurrence of the phrase in Wikipedia as evidence that it is written by amateurs and not a respectable work.
Many people are opposed and many people are in favor, as evidenced by their comments on my Wikipedia talk page. The ratio of comments, both in number and forcefulness, was originally heavily on the opposed side, but today is mostly positive.
But these ratios are in no way representative of, well, anything.
For one thing, the total number of comments (about 25 as of the end of 2009) is a minuscule fraction of the readers or editors of Wikipedia and of the number of edits.
For another, there is probably a serious selection bias. People who hold one opinion might be significantly more motivated to express it than those who hold the other. For example, it's apparent that the great majority of commenters were moved to comment when I edited their work, thus rejecting their view of this word.
I believe the reason for the shift from the negative to positive preponderance is that commenters have become more educated. That's right - I'm saying the smart position is the positive one. I say this because I responded to the negative comments by publishing this essay, and continually improving it. I and others also explained the edits on my talk page. As more information on why the edits are good became available, the number of negative comments steadily declined.
Of course, it could also be that people in the early days thought they could educate me on the beauty of "comprised of" and in modern times they can see that I've already considered every argument thoroughly and am thus beyond convincing.
At least six times someone has asked the Wikipedia authority structure to get involved:
Dozens of editors have let me know that they learned of the grammatical issue from my edit, had consequently decided to avoid "comprised of" in their writing, and thanked me.
Sometimes, editors revert my edits. I don't know how often, because I don't keep track and I don't remember the articles well enough to recognize when the same one comes across my screen twice. But based on numerical analyses I've done, I think it's about one per cent. Once, around 2008, I obviously attracted a stalker, a single editor who reverted about 30 in a row in the same order in which I made them. It happened again in 2015 in the wake of widespread publicity about the project and after the stalker bragged about it in public, an administrator admonished him, claiming he was disrupting consensus edits, and ultimately blocked the editor when he refused to stop.
Also in the wake of that publicity, a person changed about 30 instances of "composed of" that were written by someone other than me to "comprised of" and someone inserted the phrase "comprised of" randomly into a bunch of articles. These were done via multiple single-purpose Wikipedia accounts and may have been all the same person.
The project, and I personally, were lauded in comments by Steven Walling and Maryana Pinchuk, employees of Wikimedia Foundation, at a panel discussion at Wikimania 2012 entitled "This is my voice: the motivations of highly active Wikipedians". The panel listed motivations for working on Wikipedia and I came up under "perfectionism" and "challenge". (Steven's highly commendatory comments about my mindset in the project are accurate in my opinion, except that he seems to assume more emotion than is actually involved. I don't actually get angry when I see "comprised of" show up in Wikipedia, and I especially don't get angry at the editors who put it there.)
I began systematically replacing "comprised of" in Wikipedia in December 2007. At that time, 11,700 articles contained the phrase. I edited about 140 a week in the beginning.
By August 2010, I had removed every instance of "comprised of" except the 150 or so in quotations and a few dozen that were protected by an article owner and entered a mode of editing the new occurrences as they were introduced. About 70 new instances were introduced each week at that time, along with 10 "comprising of".
In 2021, the number of new instances each week had dropped to 60, probably a result of editors being educated by my work. The rate of "comprising of" additions remained at 10 per week.
I essentially search Wikipedia articles, templates, and categories for the phrase "comprised of" (with the quotes) using Wikipedia search. I use an "insource" modifier to avoid finding the phrase in quotations.
But the number of articles containing the phrase is small enough that I need a method for avoiding editing the same articles over and over. There are a small number of articles that are effectively owned by a person who takes personal offense at the edits. To mitigate the offense, this editor does a revenge reversion. I don't want to offend people or start a fight, so I try to concentrate on the articles that don't have such owners, which are the vast majority.
So my actual process involves a program that does the Wikipedia search (it just fetches the same URL as you fetch when you type in the Wikipedia search box) and compares the list to the previously fetched lists. It selects only those articles that weren't in one of those lists in the previous six months and generates a web page linking to them, in alphabetical order. I browse that page and proceed to edit them in order. I edit about 60 articles a week this way, typically within a few days of the article being created or edited to require it. Because of the six month limit, I may edit the same instance every six months if someone is changing it back. The purposes of the six month limit are that another instance of "comprised of" might get added to an article I previously cleaned and an article watcher who reverted my previous edit might have retired.
In any case, the actual editing is an intellectual process. I read the sentence and paragraph, understand what it's supposed to say, and choose a better wording. Sometimes I fix a few other things while I'm in the neighborhood.
Where "comprised of" is within a quotation, it is arguably proper to change it to "composed of" or "comprises" unless the function of the quotation is to make a point about the speaker's grammar. This is akin to quoting a person in English who actually spoke in French. In fact, I have heard it argued that it is unfair to a source to quote his grammatical mistakes, since they stand out a lot more in a written quotation than they did when the person said it informally.
However, I don't intentionally edit "comprised of" in quotations. Where the phrase is not integral to the quote, I simply quote less and paraphrase more; encyclopedias are supposed to paraphrase more than excerpt anyway. Where the phrase containing "comprised of" is quote-worthy, I leave it in, but mark it with a {{sic}} tag to make sure future editors (especially me) realize it is a quote and don't edit it by accident. I use the hide=yes parameter so that the article doesn't say "sic" next to it because there's no reason the reader will suspect the phrase is an editing error.
I use this odd convention:
{{sic|comprised |hide=y|of}}
It has the special advantage that if you are looking for articles that contain "comprised of" and shouldn't, you can type the following in the Wikipedia Search box and the article containing "comprised of" in a quotation will not be among the results:
insource:"comprised of"
There are people who object to use of the hidden sic tag, for reasons that are not at all clear to me. I have heard from three of them (only one in the context of "comprised of"). Their incoherent arguments use words like, "we can't modify quotations", "the quotation is accurate", and "there's nothing wrong with the quotation". But to be sure that my use of the tag conforms to the consensus of the Wikipedia community, I posted an Rfc in mid-2017 about it. Most of the reaction, of course, was no reaction because this is too trivial for most people to care; they're happy to leave it up to the few who do. But the RfC demonstrated a clear consensus that the hidden sic tag on quoted instances of "comprised of" is a good thing.
There was extensive media coverage and commentary about the project in early 2015, sparked by an article by Andrew McMillen in Backchannel. The project drew McMillen's attention when his own editor corrected his use of "comprised of" and in researching the issue, he found this essay as one of the top web search results.
Here is a list of coverage references, contributed by various followers of the project, but mainly Emw:
Here are barnstars my "comprised of" work has earned. (Unfortunately for detractors of the work, Wikipedia doesn't have a system for awarding tokens to disparage an editor).
| The Minor Barnstar | ||
| For picking the mother of all nits. --Milkbreath (talk) 01:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC) |
| The Copyeditor's Barnstar | ||
| As one of those who was making that mistake myself, I award you this Barnstar in thanks for all your work in correcting "comprised of" errors. Your work gives Wikipedia more credibility. Thanks ϢereSpielChequers 11:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC) |
| The Working Man's Barnstar | ||
| For your tireless efforts to improve the quality of this project in small but important ways. --AbsolutDan (talk) 00:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC) |
| The Socratic Barnstar | ||
| I came to your user page wondering why you had removed the phrase "comprised of" from Venancio Roberto, an article I had written. What I found was this page in which you set out an argument against a particular phrasing with a thoroughness one rarely sees in grammatical justification. Rather than saying simply "the dictionary discourages it", you set out a logical argument, and made someone who prides himself on correct grammar think about an issue that had never crossed his mind before. Thank you. かんぱい! Scapler (talk) 06:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC) |
| The Invisible Barnstar | ||
| For little corrections that do add up. KimChee (talk) 08:56, 2 December 2010 (UTC) |
| The Working Man's Barnstar | |
| For your tireless efforts in eradicating the improper use of the word "comprised", I award you the Working Man's Barnstar! Cjmclark 17:02, 22 November 2010 (UTC) |
| The Copyeditor's Barnstar | |
| For efforts with this: User:Giraffedata/comprised of. "Comprised of" is pretty redundantly put and overly used, which not many notice. Count me in for this for where ever I come across. lTopGunl (talk) 07:50, 16 April 2012 (UTC) |
| The Surreal Barnstar | ||
| Thank you for the English lesson! I enjoyed your user page immensely and I learned something useful, too. And by golly, I'm derned if that isn't exactly what Wikipedia is supposed to be all about. Belchfire-TALK 03:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC) |
| The Barnstar of Diligence | ||
| Thanks for fixing grammar/style issues and maintaining a standard on articles. I actually thought "comprised of" sounded incorrect, and I was going to use "compose of", but I'd already used it multiple times in the Minecraft article. Also, thanks for your informative page explaining the usage of the term. - M0rphzone (talk) 00:12, 9 October 2012 (UTC) |
| The Barnstar of Diligence | ||
| For your work on "comprised of" [sic]. An all too rare sight it is when an editor insists to the point of exhaustion upon using words to mean what they mean, rather than what he says they mean. Kudos to you for attending to this particular misuse - the only times I can get as energized about language involve the use of "literally" to mean literally the exact opposite of what it means. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 19:41, 25 March 2013 (UTC) |
| The Special Barnstar | |
| Esoteric but correct usage fix in South Los Angeles. GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:28, 6 May 2013 (UTC) |
| The Editor's Barnstar | |
| I'm impressed with your continued work behind the scenes to improve the quality of English on Wikipedia. Andrew327 04:31, 14 August 2013 (UTC) |
| The Tireless Contributor Barnstar | |
| Hey Giraffedata! I've seen you a lot lately fixing sentences removing these poorly written "comprised of" phrases. Thank you very much and I do appreciated your works. Thanks again and have a nice day! :) Mediran (t • c) 09:39, 9 September 2013 (UTC) |
| The Copyeditor's Barnstar | |
| Nice to see someone know their stuff where grammar is concerned! Thank you for all the edits (fixing "comprised of"). Meteor sandwich yum (talk) 06:41, 23 March 2014 (UTC) |
| The Original Barnstar | |
| You're a legend, Bryan. Thanks for correcting my semi-regular use of 'comprised of'. Never again will I use it! Andrew McMillen (talk) 01:35, 26 March 2014 (UTC) |
| The Original Barnstar | |
| Just wanted to take a moment and appreciate the work that you are doing on Wikipedia. You edited an article where I wrote "comprised of" and I must say, you did rightly so. I read a part of your "comprised of" page and I will definitely read the whole of it. It's informative and interesting. AMAZING! Muhammad Ali Khalid (talk) 16:50, 14 April 2014 (UTC) |
| The Tireless Contributor Barnstar | |
| Awesome job on comprise of project Kansiime (talk) 05:19, 18 January 2015 (UTC) |
| The No Comprised Of Barnstar | |
| No one else like you can be "comprised of" (full of) grammatical undos! 1234567890Number Msg me Edits 01:02, 4 February 2015 (UTC) |
| The Original Barnstar | |
| I'm glad you're on the issue of "comprised of" and rewriting sentences on Wikipedia with more apt turns of phrase. Keep up the good work. WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 05:35, 4 February 2015 (UTC) |
| The Barnstar of Diligence | |
| For your continued efforts to rid Wikipedia of improper grammar - RoyalMate1 14:11, 4 February 2015 (UTC) |
| The Original Barnstar | |
| Jimgerbig (talk) 00:21, 5 February 2015 (UTC) |
| The Original Barnstar | |
| Awesome! Panurk (talk) 00:48, 5 February 2015 (UTC) |
| The Barnstar of Diligence | |
| Annoying usage adds up. Eradicating it takes great diligence. Thank you for your perseverance! Phytism (talk) 01:39, 5 February 2015 (UTC) |
| The Writer's Barnstar | |
| Your tireless and generous work has greatly contributed to my well-being, as well as that of, doubtless, many others, by eliminating uncountable instances of writing that would otherwise have caused the intellectual equivalent of the screech of fingernail on chalkboard. I salute you! Ian Page (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC) |
| The Barnstar of Diligence | |
| Hi Bryan,
I enjoyed reading about your endeavours on Wikipedia ... Regardless, thank you for your effort. It is appreciated. Nabazela (talk) 12:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC) |
| The Copyeditor's Barnstar | |
| Absolutely love your dedication in defence of our language.
I feel a bit guilty for saying this but I did spot one of my betes noir in your user page: "There are a small number of articles..". Tesspub (talk) 12:52, 15 February 2015 (UTC) |
| The Copyeditor's Barnstar | ||
| Thanks for replacing "comprised of" with alternative and better phrasing. Thanks to your project, avoiding "comprised of" is a (de facto) standard. Esquivalience t 23:10, 25 February 2015 (UTC) |
| The Barnstar of Diligence | |
| You have spent years working on this, and I commend you for your diligence and attention to detail. :) BlooTannery (talk) 13:54, 16 March 2015 (UTC) |
| The Tireless Contributor Barnstar | |
| Nice to see someone knows grammar well, and tirelessly fixes the errors the likes of myself make. Keep up the great work Simuliid talk 14:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC) |
| The Original Barnstar | |
| What you (Bryan Henderson) have done for Wikipedia users is phenomenal. Please do the same to all of the incorrect occurrences of "due to" in Wikipedia! I can't count the number of times I've been reading an article and had to change "due to" to "because of". Writers: if no $, then no due to. Bammie73 (talk) 00:53, 4 May 2015 (UTC) |
| The Writer's Barnstar | |
| For removing "comprised of" C E (talk) 13:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC) |
| The Surreal Barnstar | |
| Thanks for all you have done in terms of "comprised of". I look forward to the day that those two words are not placed together in wikipedia. JhonsJoe (talk) 15:34, 31 May 2015 (UTC) |
| The Dank Barnstar Comprised of Dankness | |
| Because I'm a teenager, my sentences are often comprised of the word "Dank". Thanks for helping me with my english essays because I suck at English, I guess. Redditaddict_6_9 04:23, 15 August 2018 (UTC) |
| The Copyeditor's Barnstar | |
| You deserve this! Field Marshal Aryan (talk) 04:42, 13 July 2020 (UTC) |
| The Copyeditor's Barnstar | |
| Thank you for your edits! Your extensive work in correcting "comprised of" is brilliant. Starsign1971 (talk) 05:41, 8 December 2020 (UTC) |
| The Writer's Barnstar | |
| I don't know how I'm just finding out about this fascinating project from your edit on Cardiacs discography, but I applaud your dedication! Miklogfeather (talk) 11:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC) |
| The Editor's Barnstar | |
| Thank you for your edit to Owasso High School! RubyLu05 (talk) 00:18, 1 July 2022 (UTC) |
| The Barnstar of Diligence | |
| After reading through your essay on the phrase "comprised of", I wanted to award you with a barnstar for your tireless diligence in being an awesome contributor! BlueNoise (talk) 10:22, 3 October 2022 (UTC) |
| The Original Barnstar | |
| I arrived on this page unconvinced of your wisdom. I leave completely convinced. Bravo. Atomix330 (talk) 04:29, 7 February 2023 (UTC) |
| The Minor Barnstar | ||
| For your work on eradicating the phrase "comprised of" on Wikipedia. -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 02:08, 11 April 2023 (UTC) |
There are many alternative phrasings that are universally accepted as proper English and good writing. Because the phrase has spread by use by less careful writers (a writer who went to the trouble to find out how to use it probably would have decided not to use it at all), "comprised of" has many meanings. In fact, one of the advantages to avoiding "comprised of" is that an alternative is bound to be more precise.
Probably the best general-purpose replacement is "composed of". It fits almost any place you see "comprised of", though may not say exactly what the sentence wants to say.
Composing means putting together. When you say A is composed of B, C, and D you emphasize that B, C, and D are parts that come together to make A. A should not have any other parts than B, C, and D. There should be more than one part, and the sentence should simply list the parts, not describe how they go together.
Remember that "composition" and "component" are other forms of the word, so if you might use those words in discussing the subject, "composed of" is probably good.
"An ax is composed of a handle and a head."
"Tissue is composed of cells."
These are almost as good as "composed of" as a general-purpose replacement. It too fits almost any place you see "comprised of".
Consisting of something is a more abstract concept than being composed of. When A consists of B, C, and D, these parts are not necessarily distinct parts that are simply assembled. In fact, A can consist of just B. "Consists of" works as a fuzzy "is".
"Paint consists of various pigments suspended in a carrier."
"Comedy consists of making people laugh."
Where there are distinct and exhaustive components and the sentence does nothing but list them, "composed of" works better.
When "comprised of" is used to modify a noun instead of after "is", use "consisting of": "A substance comprised of pigments suspended in a carrier is paint" becomes "a substance consisting of pigments suspended in a carrier is paint."
"Comprises" is arguably what earlier users of "is comprised of" were thinking of, being distracted by the similar phrase "is composed of" to end up at the hybrid.
"Comprises" works technically in most places, but the connotation is rather different from "is composed of" or "consists of". "Comprises" means "includes", but usually means exhaustive inclusion -- there aren't any other parts.
When A comprises B, C, and D, it's true that B, C, and D are the components of A, but the phrase emphasizes that A brings them together. B, C, and D should have some independent existence and not function merely as parts of this whole.
"The diocese comprises Johnson and Davis Counties" is good if there is no territory in the diocese other than Johnson and Davis Counties. Note that the counties are much more than divisions of a diocese; the diocese merely gathers them together for church purposes.
The most common things for which I use "comprises" are geographical boundaries, school sports leagues, and consortia of businesses and such.
"Comprises" can be used for uncountable things too, as in "The campus comprises all of the woodland on the North side of the lake".
When "comprised of" is used to modify a noun instead of after "is", use "comprising": "The diocese comprised of Johnson and Davis Counties is the wealthiest one" becomes "The diocese comprising Johnson and Davis Counties is the wealthiest one".
This works where you're listing ingredients, but they aren't distinct parts.
"Brass is made up of copper and zinc."
If someone actually made the thing, "made of" may be more expressive.
This is for when someone actually put the parts together. In the same way that active voice supplies more information than passive, "made of" supplies more information than any phrasing that just describes the resulting composition.
"The tent is made of canvas and nylon."
This is the other side of "made of". When something started out whole and someone divided it into parts, "divided into" supplies more information than just describing the resulting composition.
"The agency is divided into twelve departments."
(But it depends upon the agency. Did someone actually divide up the agency, or did someone assemble pre-existing departments into an agency? "comprises" may make the point better).
I don't see "comprised of" used this way often, but sometimes it refers to parts that define something more than actually compose it, and then I like "encompass".
"The no-fly zone encompasses all the military and government buildings in the city".
Many times, an author considers "comprised of" in a deliberate attempt to make the sentence longer and more complex. This is supposed to lend a mood of intelligence or sophistication to the sentence. In technical writing, such as in an encyclopedia, ease of comprehension is far more important than mood, so a simpler sentence is better, and simple words such as "is" and "has" make the point just fine.
"The dwelling is comprised of a brick house." ⇒ "The dwelling is a brick house."
"The committee is comprised of five members" ⇒ "The committee has five members".
"a team comprised of scientists" ⇒ "a team of scientists"
The mind is constructed in such a way that we understand a sentence most easily when it forms a picture in our head — a picture of things acting on other things. It is far easier to form a picture of something concrete like a rock than something abstract like geology. It is also easier to picture one item, like a tree, than to picture a gestalt collection of items, like a forest.
So a student is easier to picture than a student body:
"The student body is comprised of residents of Centerville." ⇒ "The students are from Centerville."
A band member is easier to picture than a band:
"The band is comprised of John, Mary, and Bob." ⇒ "The members of the band are John, Mary, and Bob."
A resident is easier to picture than a population:
"The population is comprised of former New Yorkers." ⇒ "The residents are former New Yorkers."
There is a related problematic phrase, "to comprise of" (and its various forms). Like "is comprised of", this is a mishearing of two phrases which mean about the same thing: "to consist of" and "to comprise". But this phrasing is far less accepted than "comprised of". No major dictionary even acknowledges the usage.
I have found this especially prevalent in articles about India and articles rife with other syntax errors.
I began purging these from Wikipedia in November 2010, at which time there were about 3000 articles containing it. I now just expunge new instances — about 15 a week.
The justifications given in that essay leave a really bad taste in my mouth:
> I believe using "comprised of" is poor writing, because
> It's completely unnecessary. There are many other ways to say what the writer means by "comprised of". It adds nothing to the language.
That's true for many, many other words. In fact, most instances of definite and indefinite articles "add nothing to the language", since the actual information is in the noun. Just leave them out, right? "I go house."
> It's illogical for a word to mean two opposite things.
"To comprise" and "to be comprised of" contain the same word, but not in the same sense.
> The etymology of the word does not support "comprised of".
That's irrelevant to the current meaning of the word. This is called an "etymological fallacy"[1].
> It's new. Many current Wikipedia readers were taught to write at a time when not one respectable dictionary endorsed "comprised of" in any way. It was barely ever used before 1970.
Good luck reading Wikipedia, or any newspaper article, if you are uncomfortable with language coined during the past half-century. What exactly is that "Internet" thing people keep talking about? Note that "The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionaries regard the form comprised of as standard English usage."[2]
The author could have just written "I don't like 'comprised of', and I'm going to impose my preference on everyone else, even though the term has been part of standard contemporary English for a long time."
> > It's completely unnecessary. There are many other ways to say what the writer means by "comprised of". It adds nothing to the language.
I wonder if the editor read "1984" and straight up copied its ideas. In the novel, the totalitarian state of Oceania uses that exact same justification to promote the use of the Newspeak language:
> After all, what justification is there for a word which is simply the opposite of some other word? ... Take ‘good’, for instance. If you have a word like ‘good’, what need is there for a word like ‘bad’? ‘Ungood’ will do just as well—better, because it’s an exact opposite, which the other is not.
>I wonder if the editor read "1984" and straight up copied its ideas
Maybe George Orwell copied the idea from Esperanto. For instance, "dark" in Esperanto is "notlight", and left is "notright".
The word "notright" is as clear of an example as you can get: does it mean straight or left? Up?
The most confoundingly powerful feature of language is ambiguity: on one hand, you can't take it literally; on the other hand, you don't have to.
I think the example doesn't quite do it justice, a better interpretation would be antiright, which would be unambiguous
in orwellian newspeak, the whole point is to be ambigious so you can't point at harm.
If you like that you're gonna love TokiPona. So few words that even basic objects might take a paragraph to explain.
Esperanto dekstra only means right, the direction/side, though, and so maldekstra only means left, the direction/side.
I can get behind the "notlight" but "notright"... feels like something my brain would never get used to haha.
Because based on the words it's composed of, it's different from "left" - it would include "forward" and "backward".
Similarly for "notlight" implying including twilight, which "dark" does not.
> twilight
Perhaps that is lightandnotlight. We almost have notlight in English: unlit. An unlit room feels twilighty to me.
> notright
Left in Esperanto: maldekstra
I can’t imagine why a language designer would choose “mal” as the prefix for “not”. In English and Spanish (two common languages), mal has some bad connotations (malodour, malady, malfeasance, malo, malformed). Let’s try the opposite: “not left” is definitely something different from “right” - urrrgggh. “Do not go left” doesn’t mean to go right.
However it looks like Esperanto also has “liva”. Turnu liven tuj post la angulo ~= Turn left immediately after the corner.
> Let’s try the opposite: “not left” is definitely something different from “right” - urrrgggh. “Do not go left” doesn’t mean to go right.
“maldekstra” doesn't actually mean “not right” — mal in Esperanto more precisely means “opposite.” Left is opposite of right, and so malmaldekstra (opposite of the opposite of right) is still right (dekstra).
“Not right” in Esperanto doesn't exactly mean left, either, just like in in English. That'd be ne + dekstra = nedesktra.
Sure. It just feels like a malicious choice for left. No soy maleducado. !Tengo mucho mano izquirdo, y es derecho mio a decir la palabra “maldekstra” es «malappropriate»¡
http://www.anmal.uma.es/Numero9/Forment.htm
Joan Bastardas habla de la extrañeza de la existencia de la palabra ensinistrar del catalán, puesto que tiene un significado claramente positivo a pesar de ser derivado de siniestro-a. «... ensinistrar que no deixa de sorprendre els qui s´acosten al català des d´altres llengües romàniques, en què les idees d´habilitat i aptesa s´associen amb la mà dreta i no amb la mà esquerra, el castellà adiestrar, l´italià addestrare; en francès hi ha dexterité, però també en català hi ha destresa i destre-a 'hàbil', 'expert', i també maldestre, com el francès maladroit». (Bastardas 1996: 26)
la contraposición entre la bondad y la justicia — simbolizados por la derecha — y la maldad, el egoísmo —relacionados con la izquierda—.> I can’t imagine why a language designer would choose “mal” as the prefix for “not”. In English and Spanish (two common languages), mal has some bad connotations (malodour, malady, malfeasance, malo, malformed).
Well, there's also the Latin word "sinister" which has a very different meaning in English... Kinda seems like a common theme.
Literally see maladroit
> However it looks like Esperanto also has “liva”. Turnu liven tuj post la angulo ~= Turn left immediately after the corner.
If you wanted to be understood, it'd be better to say maldekstren though. I'd never heard of liv-, English Wiktionary lists it as "neologism, nonstandard" and Reta Vortaro as "malofte" (infrequent).
I don't agree with your 1984 analogy at all.
A better source might be George Orwell's actual, explicit opinions on politics and the English language:
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...
Orwell certainly did not take an "anything goes" approach to language, which is essentially what you and others argue for, in the mistaken belief that you're somehow striking a blow at totalitarianism. From my perspective, your position is much closer to the Newspeak ethos than that of someone who actually cares about correct usage.
> your position is much closer to the Newspeak ethos
I sure haven't stated "my position" in any of my previous comments. But assuming it refers to common english, I'm reminded of another "1984" concept: doublethink.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink
Compare this:
> common english is Newspeak
with this:
> War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength
The similarity is uncanny.
> A better source might be
... the actual book being discussed?
> https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...
Exactly which part of Orwell's opinion did you find relevant to this discussion and how does it relate to yours? This is missing from your comment.
> which is essentially what you and others argue for,
Please don't put words in my or anyone else's mouth to make your point. It's extremely disrespectful.
> > War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength
> The similarity is uncanny.
Is it extremely disrespectful to point out that your previous comment is defending the position that "to comprise is to compose"?
First, my original comment wasn't about defending anything. My objection was limited to a specific justification the Wikipedia editor made.
Second, the phrase is "comprised of," not "to comprise."
Finally, I'd also like to point out that the editor and all people in this thread clearly knows how the phrase is used today. What's the point of arguing about the correctness of a phrase when it does a perfect job of conveying meaning?
> What's the point of arguing about the correctness of a phrase when it does a perfect job of conveying meaning?
See this is what I mean when I say that your position is closer to the Newspeak ethos. What's wrong with ungood, after all? It does a perfect job of conveying meaning.
See this is what I mean when I say your arguments resemble doublethink.
The Newspeak language eradicates words on the basis that they're redundant. The Wikipedia editor went to eradicate a phrase using the same justification. There's an obvious parallel here.
> It does a perfect job of conveying meaning.
This is a fact that holds true regardless of one's opinion. Yet, you're fallaciously framing this as an opinion to make it look like Oceania and I hold the same opinion.
When it comes to my actual opinion, I favor languages spoken as is. Newspeak, on the others hand, is an artificially restricted one. The false equivalence you made between these two conflicting positions can only be explained as doublethink.
[dead]
hey qq who decides what correct is
Well this guy on Wikipedia, who clearly cares more then you do, for one. Dictionaries, style guides, people like Orwell, the French do have a ministry to maintain the language.
I've answered your question, now I have one for you: Did you even glance at the link?
I'm sorry, these epistemologically relativist arguments lead to utterly absurd conclusions. How does wikipedia work at all? How can we ever make judgements about anything?
It's bad Cartesianism. Just because we can't know something absolutely doesn't mean we can't know anything. Just because language changes doesn't mean there's no such thing as correct and incorrect usage.
> Dictionaries
Dictionaries generally explicitly do not define what is correct, they describe what is in use (often with notes about the contexts of common use).
> style guides
Style guides do not define what is correct for the language, they define what is correct for those adopting the style, they are intentionally by design more limited than what is acceptable in the language to serve, for adopting institutions, the function of providing a common style (that’s why they are called style guides, rather than language guides.)
Noah Webster, of the US Webster's Dictionary was a language reformer and created a prescriptive dictionary intended to "correctly instruct" people about what he believed the correct use and spelling of English to be.
He introduced American spelling and American English.
By constrast the Oxford English Dictionary was created by lexicographers intent on mapping the usage of English across space and time, they created multiple entries for each form | usage of root words and added copious notes (in the full multi volume OED editions) regarding first usage, alternate spellings, regional changes, etc.
The OED is a descriptive dictionary.
> Noah Webster [...] created a prescriptive dictionary intended to "correctly instruct" [...]
Webster lived 200 years ago, and today prescriptivism is rejected by the overwhelming majority of linguists, because it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what language is. Prescriptivism is about as well supported as phrenology, and shares many of its discriminatory goals. It was something people made up, that turned out to not make any actual sense, and that was subsequently abandoned by almost everyone.
Webster can instruct people on how to correctly write "Webster Language". But he cannot instruct people on how to correctly write English. English is whatever its users say and write. No other sensible definition exists.
> Noah Webster, of the US Webster’s Dictionary was a language reformer and created a prescriptive dictionary intended to “correctly instruct” people about what he believed the correct use and spelling of English to be
Yes, he was.
And while some of his reforms caught on and remain in use to this day, his approach to dictionaries generally did not. When I said dictionaries do not do that, the verb tense was significant.
I don't think anyone is saying that "anything goes" and there's no right or wrong ways of writing, they're just arguing that your narrow definition of "correct" is too narrow to be useful for anything other than gatekeeping.
My main point is only that comparing this to newspeak is totally backwards.
How does wikipedia work? How does language work? Linguists have firmly determined that it does not work by a coterie of elites handing down decisions about correctness, regardless of what france pretends their "immortels" do.
That also doesn't mean "anything goes" either, obviously, since we do clearly speak a mutually comprehensible dialect through no intentional coordination. It's an interesting subject! You could stand to have some curiosity about its actual mechanics, there's a lot to be learned that is invisible to you if you've already decided how it should work.
You literally didn't answer my one question, yet you keep asking more. Even Socrates answered questions when asked.
I could engage your other points, but why bother
You want me to answer questions like "how do we make judgements about things?" I don't think this is that sort of venue sorry.
Okay now you're just trolling me. The question that starts with "I have a question for you." Did you look at the Orwell link.
> Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.
Language is indeed consciously shaped. Look at the history of Italian. It doesn't just happen, and Wikipedia definitely doesn't just happen.
And if you disagree with Orwell, fine, just don't trot him out in support of your points. Which was my original point.
> Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.
That's what language is. That's how language works.
I love Orwell, but he was flat wrong in that essay. He was playing at being a linguist and showing his ignorance.
Oh I think you're talking to two different people here, sorry. I never mentioned orwell.
[flagged]
You need to chill. I'm doing my best to engage with your viewpoint within my completely human tolerance of discredited scientific ideas. Like the other commenter said you're doing the language equivalent of endorsing phrenology here and all I can have is imperfect patience for it.
But I'm not trolling you or intentionally fucking with you or anything. You are fundamentally wrong about how language works and maybe what language even is, and you're extremely hostile to genuine attempts to engage with that so I'm gonna take off. Good luck with it.
I get heated about this lol. If you really meant well, I'm not sure what to say. Try reading a comment before responding to it. My original comment was about the validity of an Orwell analogy, a point which you have absolutely refused to engage.
Calling you a troll was my most charitable reading of your obtuseness, because if you weren't willfully so, you must be either unconsciously so, or, well, just bad at reading.
If I'm a phrenologist, so is Orwell, and newspeak is not a valid analogy.
The marketplace of ideas.
Orwell wasn't a linguist, so his ideas about language are suspect. Linguists study languages as natural things because that's how it works: Humans speak, humans change how they speak, and language evolves, whereas "Newspeak" was deliberately constructed such that "correctness" was controlled by a tight coterie of people in charge, utterly without regard for making language useful, which you'd know if you read the novel it comes from.
Why people think they're entitled to their own ignorance is quite beyond me.
First of all, I have read 1984, and I wouldn't take issue with the analogy if I hadn't. Whether you have read any other books, I cannot say.
Second, you say Orwell isn't a linguist, and language just happens, but then you explicitly reference his fictional account of a prescribed language. Clearly, Esperanto is a prescribed language. So prescribed languages do exist, and political forces can shape languages, you just don't think that happens with English. Well I do. People reference so-called "descriptive" dictionaries and grammars, yet don't those texts themselves inherently acquire a prescriptive force, insofar as they originate at elite institutions like Oxford and Cambridge and UChicago? Just as Dante's works acquired a prescriptive force for the Italian that was once highly regional, but needed standardization to support the nation-state.
I think descriptivism is an incredibly naive position to take when talking about modern languages that have agglomerated for explicit social, political, and economic projects, and I think that was Orwell's point.
Similar to David Foster Wallace's essay on English, we can either naively push the descriptivist line, or we can accept that "the powers that be" do indeed shape our language, and try to have our own voices heard, for what English ought to be.
So we can rail against the Newspeak that some editor on Wikipedia is supposedly forcing on us. We can say it's literally 1984. It's ungood! And we can happily return to talking about grokking and gatekeeping and unaliving, and undocumented immigrants, and unhoused people, and utilizing the new library, believing these words are good because they happened and that they happened because they're good.
> Clearly, Esperanto is a prescribed language. So prescribed languages do exist and political forces can shape languages, you just don't think that happens with English.
You're misreading me: I'm saying that English didn't come into existence by fiat, and that it doesn't evolve through fiat most of the time. English, being a natural language as opposed to a constructed one, evolves naturally.
> Well I do. People reference so-called "descriptive" dictionaries and grammars, yet don't those texts themselves inherently acquire a prescriptive force, insofar as they originate at elite institutions like Oxford and Cambridge and UChicago?
That doesn't change the fact they're descriptive. It also doesn't change the fact linguistics is descriptive.
> I think descriptivism is an incredibly naive position to take when talking about modern languages that have agglomerated for explicit social, political, and economic projects, and I think that was Orwell's point.
Well, you can get a degree in linguistics and learn what "descriptivism" actually means, then, because you certainly don't know it now.
Okay, originally I just had to read 1984, to comment on an hn thread, now I need a 4 year linguistics degree. Increasing appeals to authority, when the previous one fails you.
You seem to be arguing that descriptivism is just what linguistics "does", therefore it does not inherently contradict prescriptivism? Because they have two separate roles. And if descriptivists stayed in their lane, and allowed prescription where obviously necessary (like when teaching a language) then we wouldn't be having this argument in the first place.
But if descriptivists turn around and say "therefore thou shalt not prescribe"، then we do have a problem, and descriptivists are indeed naive, they are the real prescribers of an ill-conceived political program.
It seems like the editor is just fishing for a reason to make lots of edits and backed into logic so their stuff doesn’t get reverted.
I love wikis and knowledge bases but this is exactly the kind of stuff that detracts.
On one case, who cares what this person does with their time.
On the other case, it wastes the attention of 90k authors who need to figure out whether they care and have their writing style overridden by a rando.
I think the correct way to do this is to appeal to a writing style that gets argued over (sometimes perpetually) and when settled then the 90k edits can be made. This edit would be an argument presented to change the style guide.
Since “comprised of” is proper usage I doubt it would be proscribed in the style guide.
In my org I used to waste minutes of having writings where people expressed preferences for “and” vs “&” or Oxford comma or whether data are plural and edited things back and forth. Then I just found a style guide and adopted it and ask that people not revert changes based on preferences that break the style guide.
> On the other case, it wastes the attention of 90k authors who need to figure out whether they care and have their writing style overridden by a rando.
On the other hand, if you're editing wikipedia and you expect your writing to not be subject to rando edits, you won't last long.
> I'm going to impose my preference on everyone else, even though the term has been part of standard contemporary English for a long time.
At least I, as a non-native speaker, find the edited sentences always easier to read. They simply make the text better.
As the entire point od Wikipedia is to make knowledge accessible with co-writing, I find it just wild that people would object to better language.
So who exactly is imposing their preference on the world: the one making the text easier to read, or the one objecting to the edits?
I find this to be a false equivalence.
People can horribly misuse the phrase "comprised of". Bland articles that directly communicate the language can be more or less tasteful depending upon who is reading them. Almost assuredly sentences can be written without "comprised of" that are also definitely not bland.
But classifying something you find easier to read as better language for everyone doesn't make it immediately true for everyone.
Additionally, it's not about a person making text easier to read or not from one (or multiple peoples') perspectives -- this appears to be about someone going on a stylistic crusade en masse. Objecting to the edits being an act of 'imposing their preference on the world' feels similar to the political mirror-projection kind of argument that can happen.
I think there is interesting discussion to be had (is it better? are there good ways to use it? when/where/how? what is the ethicality of editing articles like this? is a disclaimer wiki entry enough? etc etc), and maybe we can focus on that.
I can't see how eliminating a common misuse of an otherwise dead word wouldn't be clearer to nonnative speakers and less painful to the brains of native speakers. There are a lot of people who want to add dead vocabulary back to sound important and they'll succeed often enough with words that are at best unnecessary synonyms that convey no additional information. We don't really have to give them the benefit of the doubt when they do it completely wrong.
This conversation has gone back in a circle though. The original parent comment here pointed out that none of the arguments given for why it's a "misuse" hold water. "I can't see how eliminating a common misuse wouldn't be clearer" is not a responsive reply to "it's not a misuse."
I thought the article was clear enough. Comprises with no preposition matches its first and uncontested use. The preposition form is using the second more debatable form to create the first in a way that implies ignorance or wordiness any editor should correct.
> People can horribly misuse the phrase "comprised of".
I think that phrase is always incorrect. I suspect the problem is that people aren't used to words that take a list as their direct argument, like "comprise".
Wikipedia leans heavily to descriptivism (as do nearly all lexicons, these days). So there's no incorrect usage; there's only usage that jars, for some people.
I don't go around telling people they're ignorant because they can't speak their mother-tongue properly. That would simply be rude. But English text intended for publication should be correct English; it shouldn't be garbled, whether because it's written by a non-native speaker, or a native speaker who isn't well-read.
That implies that there is such a thing as "correct English". This seems obvious to me, but that's exactly what descriptivists deny.
Let's not get into whether "literally" is a synonym for "figuratively".
Correct according to whom? The language you speak is the result of thousands of years of casual communication by billions of human beings. Precriptivism of a living natural language is hubris.
What seems like perfect English to you is not perfect to everyone.
> The language you speak is the result of thousands of years of casual communication by billions of human beings.
Disagree. The language I speak didn't exist 800 years ago. The Anglo-saxons wouldn't have understood me, and I wouldn't have understood them.
And there were barely a billion human beings just 800 years ago - forget about thousands of years.
I didn't mention "prescriptivism", although it's obviously the opposite of descriptivism.
I thiink you mistake "prescriptivism" for a sort of law-making,like grammar-nazis. I mean something more like a general acceptance that words do have particular meanings, and that it's possible to be wrong about the meaning or use of a word.
Whether or not that is the case, once enough wrong'uns do their thing it becomes correct, correct? Whatever the history or logic or what have you. So it becomes more a question of whether "90k instances on Wikipedia, has made it into dictionaries" is either far too late, or merely a lost cause.
With all due respect, if you're not a native English speaker you really aren't in a position to judge what constitutes "better language". I speak fluent Spanish but I wouldn't presume to correct a native Spanish speaker on their style.
I also wouldn't base your opinions of what makes for good English on the ramblings of one Wikipedian whose primary argument seems to be that they had to work hard to learn to use the word a particular way and so everyone else should for the rest of time.
With all due respect, I am a native English speaker and I agree with the GP. I wouldn't go as far as the Wikipedian in question (I surely have far better uses of my time than to make many tens of thousands of edits over a trivial nitpick), but the end result does read better and I'd have a hard time justifying a reversion of such an edit.
Also, considering that plenty of non-native English speakers read the English Wikipedia, there is plenty of value in the English writing in the English Wikipedia being maximally clear without sacrificing the intended meaning of the text. Dismissing feedback out of hand on the basis of "well the person giving the feedback ain't a native English speaker" misses the point of Wikipedia being a resource for everyone.
Broadening this beyond Wikipedia, the English language itself "is comprised of" countless words and grammatical structures yanked straight out of other languages, often by non-native speakers importing features of their native languages for all sorts of reasons. Knowing this history, I hereby authorize non-native speakers to critique the language and elements thereof; it's just as much their language as it is mine, and they therefore have just as much a right to it as I do.
> but the end result does read better
What tiny fraction of one percent of the edits would you estimate you have actually read?
Enough to extrapolate with a reasonable level of confidence.
> With all due respect, if you're not a native English speaker you really aren't in a position to judge what constitutes "better language"
They said "find the edited sentences always easier to read" and that's valuable regardless if you're a native speaker or not. Of course, what "better language" is as subjective as "clean code" so probably won't reach any consensus there.
But all of this is highly subjective in the end, so everyone's opinion is equally worth, native speaker or not.
I was responding to this:
> I find it just wild that people would object to better language.
They're either saying that their own sense of what is more legible is enough to define what is better, or they're buying into the pedantic arguments in TFA.
As to what is easier to read, I think the English Wikipedia should be written to be legible to native English speakers. This is better for everyone: native English speakers can read their Wikipedia, and English learners get exposed to actual English usage rather than a simplified version.
In this case, it's not obvious to me that any substantial portion of the English-speaking population sincerely gets confused by "comprised of". It feels much more like the insistence on not ending sentences in prepositions: a rule for the sake of having a rule.
EDIT: In fact, "comprised of" recently overtook "comprises" in published books:
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22comprised+o...
> This is better for everyone: native English speakers can read their Wikipedia, and English learners get exposed to actual English usage rather than a simplified version
Side note, there is an actual "simplified english" wikipedia. So even early learners who want a simplified resource have one aside from regular Wikipedia. https://simple.wikipedia.org/
For the record, I agree with your criticism. I did generalize my experience without enough justification.
It was a 30 second runaway comment and the latter part clearly doesn't hold up against scrutiny.
> But all of this is highly subjective in the end, so everyone's opinion is equally worth, native speaker or not.
That subjectivity doesn’t equate to the equal worth of all opinions. It just means that no one opinion can be considered universal.
That lack of universality doesn’t mean that picking any one direction is as good as picking any other.
If I strongly prefer a Victorian style, giving my preference equal weight is likely to make the content far less valuable, because my preference is not a common one.
It would be necessary to examine the goals behind the content: the audience it is intended for, the desired effect on that audience, the nuances lost by preferring audience B over Audience A, the impact of that loss, etc.
Everyone should be allowed to have a preference, absolutely, but applying individual preferences to content does not lead to equivalent outcomes.
It’s not obvious to me that only native speakers should have the right to pronounce on linguistic changes or the aptness of linguistic use. Some possible arguments, and responses:
1. Non-native speakers lack the competence necessary to make such pronouncements.
It’s false to deny that many non-native speakers acquire near-native competence. So if we think that ordinary native speakers have the right to pronounce on these questions, at least some particularly skilled non-native speakers should too. Perhaps the claim then is that there’s a high standard that only a few native speakers and no non-native speakers reach. It’s unclear what would motivate that view; given that language is something we all use, it is doubtful that e.g. the perspicacity of a particular construction should only be commented upon by the most skilled speakers.
2. Native speakers’ claims to influence languages should have priority over those of non-native speakers.
We might simply view this as obvious, in which case there’s something of a conflict of interest. I think the more plausible argument is grounded in the use of language. Someone who never uses French will not really have particularly important opinions on its use. The problem here is that it’s unclear why native speakers’ intuitions are really more important. The English language is surely just as important to a Nigerian civil servant who operates nearly entirely in English as it is to one in Whitehall. The difference between non-native speakers and native speakers don’t seem relevant unless we take being a native speaker per se to be of import.
I should have said ‘conflict of intuitions’, not ‘interest’; it’s too late to edit now.
Simplifying the language, so that non-native speakers can understand it, doesn't automatically make the text better. That's a wild assertion. Worse yet, Simple English Wikipedia exists for that exact purpose.
I agree and that's why I referred to "the edited sentences" and not English in general.
> That's true for many, many other words.
Well, yes, but other words aren’t wrong and irritating to many readers. The point is that the usage in question has several disadvantages, but zero redeeming features.
> "To comprise" and "to be comprised of" contain the same word, but not in the same sense.
That’s not the point. “To shoot” and “to be shot” contain the same word, but mean opposite things, but that’s a well understood result of active vs passive voice, and nobody objects to that. However, imagine some people would start using “to be shot” to mean “to shoot”. So, they’d say “Peter was shot by Paul” to mean that Peter shot Paul, that is, Paul was shot by Peter. And then the dictionary would add that as a secondary meaning. Can’t you see how people might object to that?
I don't see it. The 50 states comprise the United States. The United States is comprised of the 50 states. You can change the word, and the exact same "issues" persist. The 50 states make up the whole of the United States. The whole of the United Sates is made up of the 50 states.
This is the crux of the issue to me - this use of "comprised of" is a completely logical and consistent usage whether or not some people think it's wrong. Plenty of times correct constructions are considered wrong by lots of people, this is what leads to the phenomenon of "hypercorrections". I won't argue that this is necessarily one since the "corrections" don't strike me as better or worse, but languages are inherently subjective. For this reason I find it distasteful to go around enforcing linguistic policies on others.
Except that, per the article, the "correct" rendering would be "The United States comprises the 50 states" or "The 50 states are comprised by the United States" - because the United States is composed of / contains / includes the 50 states. Therein lies the issue: the word "comprised" is being used opposite from its actual meaning.
There probably ain't much we can realistically do about that, though. Words get misused until they're redefined all the time ("literally" being the popular contemporary example). Such are the joys of English being descriptivist.
No - "The United States comprises 50 states".
Well sure it’d be unsettling but like… what, are you just going to stop language from changing? Good luck with that. We’re just along for the ride, if people start using it that way, then that’s what it means now. Objecting to that is about as much use as to be pissed into the wind.
If language legitimately changes so a sentence or phrase has two opposite yet universally used meanings, (presumably resolved in each instance by context), it would still be better writing to avoid it when clarity of meaning is paramount.
Encyclopedias are a good place to make as few assumptions and gambles as possible with regard to how a reader might comprehend what is written.
Those are just autantonyms, and English has plenty already.
First you dust the cake, then you dust the table.
The castle is impregnable.
And if you add more collocial words, wicked now is good, but also means bad. When a song is cool, you mean it's hot.
People tend to not object to that.
It is objected to in some writing.
"Inflammable" is taught to be avoided.
So are things that mean opposite things depending on locale, like "tabling" an issue. It may be ok within a local group, but would be avoided in writing inside a multinational corporation.
> It is objected to in some writing.
Everything is objected to, that’s not sufficient for a decision. It’s the reason or volume of objecting.
Just saying there’s some objection is the Twitter fallacy. It could be one person, or even me, or it could be 100% of editors.
I think auto-antonyms should be avoided in an encyclopedia. (And also in scientific publications, text books, and laws.)
"Wicked" to mean "good" is slang. So is "cool", used in that sense. Slang is not encyclopaedic language.
There are other common examples of active and passive meaning the same thing. "The document is printing" and "the document is being printed", for example. It has no merit other than a popular consensus that it's correct, which is all that's required.
There is no legal right "not to be irritated". It is incorrect to state that this particular case has "no redeeming features". The fact that the phrase is in common usage is all the justification it needs. What's next, "Won't is not a logical contraction of 'will not'"?
But there's loads of stuff like that. "Take a shot" and "take a bullet" (pretty much covers both ends no less)
Peter wasn't shot by Paul, it was John that was shot by Mark, and the whole Paul thing is a hoax.
"Comprises" is frequently used in patent writing, but I have rarely seen it elsewhere. I think its use, both in patents and normal English, has a particular connotation, that "is comprised of" doesn't carry otherwise:
* When I hear "X comprises Y and Z," I think that the author is saying that X includes Y and Z as its key parts, but is not precluding the existence of other parts
* When I hear "X is comprised of Y and Z," I think Y and Z are the only parts of X
This might have originally been a misuse of the word "comprise" to mean "compose," but I feel like that's a pretty big distinction in meaning.
Interesting. I think when an author says "X comprises Y and Z”, they assert precisely that Y and Z constitute X, that is, are the only parts of X. Otherwise the author should have written “X contains” or “X includes Y and Z”.
Articles obviously add information: is it a specific, known house you are going to (I'm going to the house) or a non-specific/not previously referred to (I'm going to a house)?
When it's your own house you're going to, you could argue the definite article wouldn't add anything, and the phrasal verb to go home drops it (ie. I'm going home), though adding an article is possible and changes the meaning (I'm going to the/a home, in the context of a home for the elderly or some such).
This statement is true only if it is not possible to tell from the context if the noun refers to a specific/previously mentioned thing or not. It would be possible to measure the amount of information contained in these articles, Shannon style, by taking a body of text, removing the articles, and then asking a bunch of english speakers ( that can possibly be approximated by a LLM ) to put back in the correct articles. Any uncertainty or variation would point to information being lost by the removal.
Human languages are highly redundant, for the most part. The communication channel is lossy, so you add parity bits and error correction codes.
I was thinking about Shannon entropy as well, as the OP completely forgets the word 'from' as well! "I go to house", "I go from house". Certainly, house contains more information, but the concepts of to and from as some kind of token do contain meaningful amounts of entropy as well.
I would leave the argument but tweak the example given to support: it "adds nothing to the language" that we have many more or less perfectly synonymous terms, such as purse/handbag, pop/soda, and so on.
They're regional though. "Purse" and "handbag" don't have the same meaning in the UK, and "pop" and "soda" are rare in their US meaning.
In this case "compose" and "comprise" do have different meanings. "Compose" has the sense of "put together" whereas "comprise" is closer to "contain". You'd never say "contained of" unless you were going for a really archaic sentence construction. I think it's less clear that "comprised of" is incorrect in all cases, but I do agree it sounds ugly and that there's almost always going to be a better phrasing available.
Wikipedia themselves maintain a page about "comprised of" that has citations going back to the 18th Century. I think it has been long enough to concede that it has the supposedly objectionable meaning.
> is it a specific, known house you are going to
"I'm going house" contains less meaning than "I'm going to [a] house". Without the preposition, it could mean "I'm leaving [a] house" ("I'm going from house").
I read this and googled a bit and don't quite understand what the problem is with "comprised of".
The author says this "The 9th district is comprised of all of Centerville" should be replaced by "The 9th district comprises all of Centerville"? That's it?
Is there some way to see what edits were made?
>> It's illogical for a word to mean two opposite things.
And to support your stance against that, I offer this:
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/57032/25-words-are-their...
They can take "cleave" from my cold, dead hands!
Oh that misses my favorite, "egregiously" which means both done very well and done exceptionally wrong, the latter used more commonly, the former archaic.
But in my language we only use the original positive meaning, so I was deeply confused by English using it for a long time.
While we're on trivia, the etymology of this word is the Latin for "leaving the flock." The Japanese word 抜群, meaning "exceptional," has this exact same etymology except by way of Chinese rather than Latin.
There’s a number that change over time; awful and terrible for example. Very old hymns talk about how awful and terrible God is, for example.
Ah yes, this is indeed the subject of a Terry Pratchett bit about elves in "Lords and Ladies"
> Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror. The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. No one ever said elves are nice. Elves are bad.
I mean, it's accurate either way, at least in the Old Testament.
I was going to mention “sanction”. Happy to learn more words like that!
Plus, generally languages are comprised of, among other things, a hodgepodge of colloquialisms that add flavor to the discourse.
> > It’s illogical for a word to mean two opposite things.
Auto-antonyms are actually quite common in English.
One of my favorites is “nonplussed,” because its evolution into two opposite things is both generational and split across British vs North American English.
Interesting. I wonder if the word "presently" could count. It can mean both "soon" or "currently".
Momentarily is similar. Could mean 'for a moment' or 'in a moment'.
Parent is still correct about it being illogical though.
That's an arguable factoid.
I don’t love “is comprised of,” and think it can usually be replaced with something like “contains” or simply “is,” resulting in a better, more direct sentence. But I’m not going to go on a crusade against it.
"My itinerary is comprised of four hotel stays." --->
"My itinerary is comPOSED of four hotel stays."
or
"My itinerary coNSISTS of four hotel stays."
Much better.
Correction: "I'm planning on staying at four hotels, but there might be more depending on how my trip goes (because it's not completely 100% planned out)."
"Consists of" creates a minimum bound, not an exact amount.
For that matter, meaning was already lost in the original post: If "comprised of" was used in the original sentence, it would mean at least one of the hotels was a destination itself rather than just a place to stay (a historic building or something, for example).
It really depends on sentence flow. With the usual SVO order, the subject becomes the focus.
If the context or dialogue goes like this: "Where are you staying for your vacation?" then the logical subject of the answer should come first, e.g. "I am staying ..."
However if the lead-in focuses more on the itinerary rather than the traveler, e.g.
"What is your plan? Can you describe your itinerary?" then it makes a lot of sense to start with "My itinerary involves..." or "My itinerary consists of..." or for a passive voice, "My itinerary is composed of..."
“I’ll stay at four hotels.”
"I plan on staying at four hotels.", if you want to more accurately preserve the original meaning (just because it's on the itinerary doesn't mean I'll actually be staying at all four hotels, but it does typically mean there's a plan I intend to follow).
This. Simple, direct, and much more intelligible.
?? If you say so
The alphabet contains five vowels is a completely different statement from the alphabet is comprised of five vowels.
Sure, they aren’t always one-for-one swaps.
To make your “comprised” example correct, I guess it would have to be something like “the alphabet is comprised of five vowels, twenty consonants, and Y, which can be either.”
(Note: Wikipedia lists W as also sometimes a vowel now?)
This is an OK sentence, probably because the alphabet is not very complicated. But we’re basically stuck describing the whole thing in one sentence because of the use of “comprised.”
If we’d gone with “contains,” we’d have more flexibility, we could break it down and do one component per sentence, for example.
It isn’t always wrong, it just makes a lot of decisions for you and they aren’t always optimal.
Exactly. You know what else is completely unnecessary? The Eiffel Tower. Big Ben. The reflecting pool at the Mall in Washington, DC. Ten million other thngs. That something is 'completely unnecessary' is a completely insufficient reason to annihilate it, especially it it has wormed its way into common experience.
>Note that "The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionaries regard the form comprised of as standard English usage."
I've never found this a convincing argument. Think of when you use a dictionary: it's because you want to understand a word that you don't understand in its context. If it didn't include all uses, the dictionary wouldn't help you. A dictionary a tool to help consume language.
If you want help to produce language, you refer to a style guide. The barrier for acceptability is much higher there.
"impose my preference on everyone else"
By fixing a common mistake on a collaboratively edited encyclopedia? What are you even talking about? Do you have any idea what an editor does at the New York Times?
But it’s not a mistake to everyone, it’s just a mistake in this person and some others eyes.
But it’s an accepted usage of the words.
I’m not exactly familiar with specific editorial duties, but it seems NYTimes editors allow “comprised of” [0] so they don’t seem to correct all occurrences of “comprised of” by changing text to “composed of.”
[0] https://www.google.com/search?q=%22comprised+of%22+site%3Any...
Yes it's a mistake exactly in the eyes of those who know the meaning of the word. "com" + "prise" = "grasp together". An error can be more common than the correct usage and still be an error.
Would you accept "A table setting is included of plate, fork, knife and spoon." as correct usage? What if "included" becomes rarely used in the future and this incorrect usage becomes relatively popular? Would that make it correct? Nonsense.
The job of an editor is to raise the level of the writing before it goes to print, including fixing common mistakes. A professional writer would just learn something from it and improve. What I'm amazed by is the number of people who seem outraged, like someone's right to freedom of expression is being violated because someone came along after and removed some mistakes and improved the writing, literally a Wikipedia editor just doing the job of an editor. And then a whole essay has to be written justifying it, and that's still not enough, and we are all discussing it even further. It's a remarkable phenomenon.
It makes me wonder if software developers are as defensive about common programming mistakes. If so we might have a bit of a problem.
> "com" + "prise" = "grasp together".
This is a terrible argument first because etymology is not meaning, but more importantly because "grasp together" doesn't seem to rule out the errant meaning. "This table setting grasps together a plate, a cup, and several pieces of silverware." seems if anything less wrong than "A plate, a cup, and several pieces of flatware grasp together this table setting."
Your argument is that etymology doesn't matter, but you also make the etymological argument the other way?
Well, ok, but we are not criticizing use of "comprise" but of "comprised of".
This table setting grasps together [three things].
This table setting comprises three things.
This table setting [together grasps] three things.
These are all correct.
*This table setting is grasped of a plate, cup, and flatware.
*This table setting is comprised of a plate, cup and flatware.
*This is grasped-together of a plate, cup, and flatware.
These are all wrong, for the same reason (so it can't be the Oxford comma).
If you wouldn't say it out loud with "comprised of" replaced by "included of", then it's wrong. That's the simple rule.
The backwards version is "The plate, cup, and flatware is comprised of the place setting" means "The plate, cup, and flatware is the total-grasping-together of the place setting."
It becomes clear if you write it this way how awkward it is, and the preposition clearly seems like the wrong one, so this is why the standard advice is just to avoid this confused, clunky phrasing.
My point was that your argument was bad, not that we should misuse "comprise." So yes, I noted that etymology doesn't matter when determining modern meaning, but went on to point out that even if we assume that it does the argument doesn't hold up, because it's a terrible argument.
You talk a lot here, but none of it actually follows. People write "is comprised of" because they confused it with "is composed of". "Com-pose" means "place together"; doing the same things does not make clear which should be which way 'round.
For the record, I kinda like having a separate word for "makes up" versus "is made up of" and would prefer people stop confusing the two. I just don't think we need garbage arguments in support.
> Would that make it correct? Nonsense.
Why not? Plenty of English words evolved this way. What's the problem exactly?
In linguistic terms, "comprised of" in English is commonly accepted and understood, and usage almost always overrides "logic" or other rules and regularities in the language.
Every time it happens it gets harder for the next generation to read Shakespeare. Just because something has changed a lot is not an argument for changing it more.
"I go house" is not standard English. When they said 'There are many other ways to say what the writer means by "comprised of"' it is implied that those other ways are standard English.
>The author could have just written "I don't like 'comprised of', and I'm going to impose my preference on everyone else, even though the term has been part of standard contemporary English for a long time."
But they are not imposing their preference. They are making an improvement that has a consensus and the edit is appreciated by the authors of the text and Wikipedia editors.
Look at the "Reaction to the project" and the barn star awards they got. People whose text was edited to remove "comprised of" thanked this person for their work. Only 1% of the time the edit was reverted. Their work is overwhelmingly viewed as a good thing for Wikipedia.
There is no "standard English." There sure as hell isn't a consensus that "comprised of" is incorrect, or it wouldn't have been used over 90k times.
It is a consensus reached by the Wikipedia editing community, or the edits wouldn't be so overwhelmingly accepted. There are probably more than 90k typos in Wikipedia that doesn't mean they are correct.
"Standard English" is a poor choice of words, but I'm not sure how to describe what "I go house" is. Not grammatically correct English?
I suspect that this is an obsessive-compulsive thing. So as long as they're not making the articles worse then I say just let them do it if they need to.
Slavic languages do perfectly fine without articles. As Polish speaker I say leave them out ;) .
> As Polish speaker I say leave them out
"As Polish speaker, I say leave out"?
Forgive me if I decline to take writing advice from someone who tells me "I go house" is meaningful English. It isn't. It's violates the rules of grammar, rules which are a description of the normal English as used by members of the English speaking community. English expects you to specify whether you go into, towards, around, out of, or through the window of a house, or the house that we already know we are talking about, or Joe's house.
the justifications in the essay might be poor, but it is sensible to restrict the language of wikipedia to be as unambiguous as possible, given its status as "authoritative on most topics".
For an example in the other direction, wikipedia should ban the word inflammable. Its original meaning, which some authors will definitely prefer (if they are pedants), is entirely the opposite meaning of the colloquial meaning. Should wikipedia pick a meaning for the word, which people are free to ignore, or just outright ban it? (except in etymology wikipedia, where it is an example of a word, rather than part of the explanatory grammar)
> That's irrelevant to the current meaning of the word. This is called an "etymological fallacy"[1].
Did you read your own link? It explicitly calls out absolute neglect of the etymology as fallacious, as well.
The most relevant argument is: this is an encyclopedia, its very purpose is to be precise. And words like "comprise" are specifically about defining the meaning and composition of terms. If the encyclopedia is sloppy with words why does it even exist?
Another point: the era of a human doing rote language cleanup is nearly over; surely an LLM can do better?
Romanes eunt domum was good enough. /s
No one is going to fight this person trying to erase a word though.
Sorry, but as a non-native English speaker, “compromised of” confuses me more, I guess mostly because I was exposed to the other meaning too much.
"Compromised" and "comprised" are different words.
you're right that the essay is poorly argued. it all amounts to a whole lot of words saying basically "i don't like it" and trying to claim opinions as fact.
but also, i agree. i don't like it either. so i'm not sure the whole essay is necessary, but i appreciate the work this person is doing to remove the bad writing from wikipedia.
i don't know if it's illogical but there are a lot of words that mean two opposite things: http://www.fun-with-words.com/nym_autoantonyms.html
> Just leave them out, right? "I go house."
the ministry of truth is easier to write as minitrue, yeah.
just wait until they learn about the etymology of awful and awesome. both come from the word awe, but mean completely opposite things.
"Comprises" means "consists of". So "comprised of" means "consists of of". It's not just that some people dislike it; it's simply wrong.
Whenever I come across the word "utilize" in WP, I change it to "use" (with the edit comment "Don't utilize utilize"). Nobody's ever reverted me for that.
I think there is a proper use for the verb "utilize": it means "to render useful". But usually, it's just a substitute for "use" that sounds more erudite, or something. I think to utilize something is to take something that is useless, and turn it into something useful. That's not the same as using the thing.
I know this is shocking to people but if a phrase is systematically used by native speakers, it is then part of the language. There is no notion of native speakers being systematically wrong in linguistics. It wouldn't make sense scientifically.
In order to examine natural languages using the scientific method, linguists gather data (i.e. native speakers' spoken or written communication) and then analyze this (i.e. find predictive models of this data). Gathering data, then claiming the data is wrong is epistemologically unfounded. Languages simply are the way they are. This would be like gathering data from Hubble and then deciding photons are wrong because their behavior mismatch with Newtonian laws.
OK, but does that mean the phrase should be used as such in an encyclopedia?
For instance, the word "biweekly" now means both "once every two weeks" and "twice per week". I don't mind usage of that word for those two meanings. Obviously, linguists can gather data and analyze how it's being used. They may conclude that one meaning was more favored 50 years ago and the other meaning is now.
But when I'm reading an encyclopedia, I'd prefer it to avoid this ambiguous word.
Your example doesn't map, though. There is no ambiguity when I say "curry is comprised of beans and carrots". It's just a way of using the word that some native speakers have used their whole lives and other native speakers find jarring.
As a non-native English speaker, the issue that I've had with the dual meaning of "comprise" is that I was first introduced to it via the "is comprised of" usage which resulted in me equating "comprised" with "composed" or "made up" As in: "X is comprised of Y and Z" == "X is composed of Y and Z" == "X is made up of Y and Z"
Some time later, I came across the usage "X comprises Y and Z" and, based on my previous understanding that "comprise" == "compose," I took that to mean "X composes Y and Z" which, in other words, means "Y and Z are made up of X". But really, it means the other way around which is that "X is made up of Y and Z!" Only when I learned about the dual meaning of "comprise" did I correctly understand it to mean the latter.
To this day, I still have to actively juggle this arbitrary "dual-rule" in my head when I come across "comprise."
Does “utilize” really lead to such ambiguities? Or “comprised of”? I’d be really surprised… maybe in rare cases? I haven’t read the entire linked manifesto so maybe he has some examples!
Biweekly (and probably semi-weekly) is one of those words that should be generally avoided. It's like depending on some less obvious operator precedence rule rather than parentheses. You may be technically correct, but you shouldn't do it that way because others will misunderstand you.
ADDED: I'm genuinely confused why people would disagree with this (which is in multiple style guides). I assume it's some variant of I know what it really means and, if someone else doesn't, that's their problem. But that seems antithetical to writing to communicate something to an audience.
Yes, comprised/utilize doesn't really matter because you will know from context, but biweekly is really tricky. For example "we have biweekly sprint ceremonies on monday and friday" can be very confusing.
But there's nothing ambiguous about "is comprised of", so what's the problem?
I only ever thought biweekly was synonymous with fortnightly
There is a tension between prescriptivism and descriptivism, and it has to do with the rate at which the language evolves. Prescriptivism resists language evolution. Decriptivism allows the language to evolve as fast as people wish to evolve it.
Some rate of language change has to be accepted, but it needn't be as fast as if we rejected all prescriptivism.
We each prescribe or refuse to prescribe language rules as we see fit, and thus the language evolves at some natural rate.
We do need some grammar/spelling pedantry.
> Decriptivism allows the language to evolve as fast as people wish to evolve it.
More importantly, taken to an extreme, descriptivism describes language in the way a map describes the territory. Any time a person speaks and is understood, no matter how badly, end-stage descriptivism has to allow their diction as syntactically and semantically valid in the language in which they spoke. The most you can say is that some expressions are rarer than others (you see "was done well" much more often than you see "was done good").
But this is also a wrong way of talking about language, just as much the old prescriptivist way was wrong. People are not static language replication machines, learning how to speak purely from imitation of their elders and community, and observed from on high by language anthropologists seeking to observe how they behave. They are concept-builders, rule-learners. They have a sense for not just how to speak in particular cases, but also what it is to speak well. It is this public sense of correct speech that is the subject of evolution over time, and is therefore also the proper target for descriptivist accounts of language.
Writing is similar to speech, but in writing most people are even more keyed to correctness, and less keyed to achieving the bare minimum of communication. Rules are stickier. We ought to understand this Wikipedia editor not as a noxious outsider to the evolution of language, who like the anthropologist inserts prescriptivist rules where they are unwanted, but as someone who is part of the normal evolution of language itself and therefore part of the terrain to be described! There have always been people who have been sticklers for particular rules.
In principle prescriptivism is about slowing language evolution, but in practice almost all of the prescriptive rules that people talk about (including opposing “comprised of”) are not based in any historical usage pattern. The prohibitions on ending a sentence with a preposition, “less” before a count noun, etc. are all made up out of thin air.
> The prohibitions on ending a sentence with a preposition, “less” before a count noun, etc. are all made up out of thin air.
Yes, as is not splitting infinitives. All nonsense. But "comprised of" is not nonsense. "Irregardless" is wrong". Etc. Not all prescriptions are nonsense.
Of what?
> Prescriptivism resists language evolution. Decriptivism allows the language to evolve as fast as people wish to evolve it.
This is nonsense. Do you really believe language is subject to intentional human control?
(Of course if a dictator comes and kills half a million people for things including changing language like it happened in my country, then it is, but this is a very rare exception.)
> Do you really believe language is subject to intentional human control?
Some, yes. You speak roughly the same language(s) as your parents, friends, teachers, etc. Their influence on how you speak and write -especially when you were young- is quite large.
langage is taught in schools and by parents. It is 100% controlled by humans. you can't learn it by yourself as a baby.
I didn’t mean that. I meant evolution of language is not subject to any person’s desires or will.
But you and I can -by our own choices- resist some evolutions of the language and foster others. We can be anywhere from pedantic prescriptivists to outrageously innovative and everything in between. Our children, relatives, friends, and colleagues can all take cues from our stewardship of the language -- and vice versa.
Fully agree, same can be said about ever young generation’s slang.
What “bet”, “cap”, “rizz” and others used by the younger population isn’t wrong, it’s different and an evolution of certain terms.
I don’t study linguistics, but I can be sure there are terms we use today and take as normal-speak that were once the center of a younger generation’s slang vernacular.
An extreme example is the word retard. Years ago in normal speak you could say “After the EPA enacted stricter emissions regulations, this initially retarded the development of sports cars until new technology was implemented” other obvious examples are the medical angle of the word.
Today, you could use the word in such a way, it’s technically correct, however you’ll most likely get some odd looks.
Most uses of it today are either in specific comedic circles, or derogatorily towards another person/thing/animal etc
He's not correcting the usage of people chatting on street corners here. He's fixing bad usage in an encyclopedia.
Good usage improves clarity. This is why editors have style guides.
Except it's not bad usage. Even Merriam-Webster approves, it's the second definition listed, and an additional usage note validating it:
"Bad usage" or not depends on one's style guide. The better ones are better.
"Better ones are better" is meaningless because there's no objective standard. What I think is better, you may think is worse. All we can say about style guides is, "different ones are different". They reflect the needs of each publication. And Wikipedia's style guide takes no stance in this case. Also, style is about preference, not correctness.
It may not be your personal preferred usage, but it certainly isn't bad usage if a major American dictionary approves.
That's nonsense, not all native speakers have equal verbal fluency. Certainly new words or sentence constructions can be coined for amusement or efficiency and may catch on at scale, but if there were no such thing as correctness then there wouldn't be any such concept as incoherence.
A "systematic" change in the meaning of a word or phrase means that someone used it wrong once and enough people followed them in their wrongness that it became the norm. It's reasonable to say that once a new meaning has been taken up by the majority in this way it's not wrong anymore, but there is also a broad continuum between old usages and majority uptake of new usages where some users of the language in question may reasonably object to the latter.
For instance, I was once CC'd on an email thread at work where a senior leader made an obvious typo in reference to some Thing and everybody else on the thread blindly parroted it. This "alternate" usage was established and used systematically in the local context, but it led to a significant decline in general clarity and interpretability, and it was also not durable beyond the context of that thread. It was a mistake, simple as that.
"Comprised of" is probably past the threshold at this point, much like "rate of speed" and "how <thing> looks like" and so on and so forth. But—and I know this is shocking to some people—"correct" use of language does have significant advantages for communicating clearly, especially in writing. Prescriptivism and descriptivism both have their adherents because neither is right or wrong in the naive absolutist sense—balance is key.
It depends on whether you presume language knowledge to be descriptive or prescriptive. Neither view is right or wrong. For example, I'm a native speaker of C, yet my syntax errors are still errors.
u are looking at this from the pov of a linguist, not an editor...u might think this comment im writing isnt "systematically wrong" or whatever but u wouldn't write a wikipedia article this way
seriously tho if descriptivists had the courage of their convictions they would just stop capitalizing, there's no reason to
I think you have the crux of it... this person has a very long essay explaining why this change makes it more comprehensible to more readers.
This is what an editor should do. What's the problem? Let them spend their time on it if they like, it seems like most times no one even notices the change.
It's not being pedantic if you are doing it to improve real life readability based on real feedback, even if it seems trivial.
>Languages simply are the way they are.
Not necessarily true. There are authoritative guides on English (e.g. the Webster dictionary) that grammar is measured up against. In fact, the main reason we have standardized spelling instead of people just writing what seemed right is because people actively tried to enforce a right and wrong way of spelling.
> There are authoritative guides on English (e.g. the Webster dictionary)
This is exactly wrong. Webster's is not prescriptivist; a dictionary describes a language as it is, not as it "should" be (indeed, there is no such thing).
> It's not just that some people dislike it; it's simply wrong.
Language changes. Words frequently develop the opposite meaning of what they originally had—opposites seem to be semantically closer and more prone to switching than completely unrelated words. When a word changes meaning, it is not wrong to use it in the new way, and at some point it even becomes wrong to use it in the original way: if you used "terrific" to mean "inspiring terror", you would confuse most of your audience!
In this particular case what I find funny is that the author acknowledges that this semantic shift has been going on for hundreds of years and all that was holding it back was the language purists. According to their own account, when the purists fell out of favor in the 60s it was like a dam burst.
The "incorrect" usage recently overtook the correct one in published books:
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22comprised+o...
Semantic shift is certainly a phenomenon, but that doesn't mean that it should always be embraced or is useful. There's a clear use for unambiguous and Technical language.
If you write a patent, statement of work, product specification, or contract with the wrong word out of ignorance, you only have yourself to blame
I'm fine with people being careful in their usage in contexts where precision matters. I even agree that Wikipedia is probably one of those places.
It's the weird value judgements that people like the author assign to different usages that really bother me. Objectively, "is comprised of" is correct usage. It's the majority usage in books published today, and it's in all the dictionaries.
If TFA had left it at "it's ambiguous" I wouldn't blink, but they had to go off on a rant about how wrong the modern usage is, and that's a problem. It feels elitist and reactionary.
What do you call the intermediate stage where half of people have one definition and other half have a different one?
That's the period where teachers tell millions of students that "can I" is wrong, you should say "may I".
The teachers lost that battle, like they'll lose all the similar battles to come, because they were trying to enforce communicating like old people.
In this case, history.
As my parent post points out, it is certainly not history in the legal system and other fields where precise and Technical meanings matter.
That only applies in cases of ambiguity at which point it’s often best to avoid both the old and new definitions.
I generally agree with that sentiment. And something like a patent the definition is well understood.
The sentiment that I disagree with is defending an incorrect or at least ambiguous word choice when there is a clear alternative. The strikes me as simple stubbornness.
> Words frequently develop the opposite meaning of what they originally had
My favourite examples, because it also emphasizes some kind of ambiguity in the concept itself, are the english words "host", "hosting", "hospitality", "hostile", "hostage", with roots in the latin "hostis" (enemy), and the indo-european "ghosti" (guest, stranger).
I don't know if it's that simple, and in the case of "comprised of" I think there's good reason to attempt to make a correction. It's not that to comprise is some super common, popular verb that pops up naturally in our day-to-day language. It's relatively rare. My personal opinion is that people believe what they'd probably say normally ("x is made up of y", or "x contains ys" or whatever) sounds too simple in some contexts, so they reach for the the verb they heard some other people use that they presume is more correct and then use it incorrectly. People are conflict-averse and don't often correct their friends/colleagues/clients/whatever so it sticks around. So if the intent is to use a more correct word, surely people would want to know the actually correct way it's used?
And I'm all for "language evolves" - but there's always going to be a time when you correct people. If you have a kid who calls the ambulance the "ambliance" (common one for kids where I'm from) you don't just shrug and say "language evolves", you try to teach them the correct way to speak, spell and write.
I don't know where the line is - what should be corrected and what should be absorbed in to English - but I feel like "comprised of" should be corrected.
Well, that's not much of a value argument, just a statement of reality that entropy exists and everything becomes crap over time without maintenance.
Gardens also grow. But if you don't maintain your garden, they ahem literally become weeded, cough figuratively speaking.
You're welcome to tend your own garden, but until we figure out how to have fair elections I would invite all self-appointed language stewards to leave other people's plots alone.
Languages belong to their speakers, and the only way we have to vote at the moment is with our idiolect.
Languages are social. Other people can push back. You’re an adult. You can take it.
Wait until it drifts off further into "it is compromised of". (You can Google that, and you'll find it used in papers already.)
> it's simply wrong
That makes as much sense as saying that "ne... pas" in French is a double negative and therefore "simply wrong" to use as a straight negative.
No -- language isn't math, and English and other languages are chock-full of inconsistencies and seemingly "illogical" things. Language ultimately rests on convention, on real life usage -- not logic. Arguing that a common usage is illogical is fighting against the tide.
"ne... pas" in French is nothing more nor less than the correct way of formulating certain kinds of statements containing a negative. If you left out either of "ne" or "pas" in such a construction, people would either laugh, or assume you were some kind of primitive language generator.
It's absurd that English speakers are so tolerant of incorrect usage. It's partly the pedagogic principle that "All shall have prizes" at the school sports day; but it's significant that if you try to correct incorrect usage, you get referred to literary figures such as poets and playwrights that used some term incorrectly, as if people like (e.g.) Pepys are authorities.
> It's absurd that English speakers are so tolerant of incorrect usage.
Or, one can just as easily say it's absurd that certain pedants are so intolerant of evolving usage.
Language does not proceed by logical deduction. It is shared convention, no more and no less. If a majority of people think a new usage is right, then that's just what the usage is.
When you say "incorrect usage", incorrect according to whom? You? A minority? Why should anyone else take that seriously when they're already communicating just fine?
Or they'll assume you're a native speaker familiar with a given dialect or specific idioms. Dropping "ne" is common in spoken French many places to the point that to many speakers you'll sound stilted and/or old if you included it - the first time I was told (as a teenager) I sounded "old" for using ne..pas was around 30 years ago.
The son in the family I stayed with on on a school trip back then found it hilarious how often I used "ne ... pas" instead of just "pas", e.g. "c'est pas grave" [1] rather than "ce n'est pas grave".
[1] Here's a song titled "c'est pas grave" by French group Columbine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yyjPxvNLGk
The reverse is possible too: there are some verbs (at least savoir and pouvoir, not sure if there are others) that can be negated just with ne, without pas, although it sounds stilted and old-fashioned. You are unlikely to encounter this in the real world but it does show up in books. For example Dumbledore in the French translation of Harry Potter says “je ne puis” and “je ne sais” a fair amount.
I'm not a native speaker, but I've read that "je ne [verb]" was the standard way to negate in Old French, cognate with e.g. "yo no [verb]" in Spanish. The "pas" was originally only added for emphasis, but over time it became obligatory and the "ne" became less important.
It's almost as if, contrary to what the person three comments up says, languages evolve over time...
> If you left out either of "ne" or "pas" in such a construction, people would either laugh, or assume you were some kind of primitive language generator.
Isn't it common to drop the "ne" in colloquial speech?
“Common” is an understatement. It’s practically universal. You will sound weird if you systematically include “ne”, like you learned to speak by reading books and have never communicated with a real person.
> If you left out either of "ne" or "pas" in such a construction, people would either laugh, or assume you were some kind of primitive language generator.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Please learn French before spouting off so confidently about it.
"Laugh or assume you're a robot" isn't quite right, though; skipping the "ne" is common in informal contexts.
There was a fascinating article in the Economist many years ago about the worldwide predominance of English. (This was pre ubiquitous internet.)
The reasons given were 1) British colonialism 2) Post WWII American hegemony 3) No one cares if you speak it poorly.
Interesting. If you look at Wiktionary or if you prefer, your favorite etymology dictionary, the word utilize is descended from Latin from the French word utiliser, via the Italian utilizzare which got it from the Latin utilis. All of those words mean to use.
I'd be the last person to say you're wrong. Matters of grammar and usage ultimately boil down to does it feel right and current usage. As is usual with these things, other people have different feelings about it. That's what dialect is I think.
>All of those words mean to use.
"The teachers were unable to utilize the new computers" means something different from "The teachers were unable to use the new computers"
Sorry, but what is the difference? "To utilize" is literally defined as "to use".
"utilize" - the teacher wasn't able to use the computers for the intended purpose of teaching the children.
"use" - the teacher was unable to operate the computer at all (maybe they couldn't use the mouse, for example).
No part of your example indicated the intent was to use the computers to teach children. Teachers can teach adults and they can use computers to do other things. In your examples, excepting your hidden intent, they were synonyms. Do you have a better example demonstrating this?
Nevertheless, "use" is a better word. Using longer words, when shorter words are available that mean the same thing, comes across as pompous or pretentious.
Sometimes, the longer word has a connotation that more clearly expresses our intention. Sometimes we want Hemmingway and other times we want Faulkner.
They're not quite the same thing. One example I see online is using "utilize" to suggest that something is used beyond its intended purpose. (I'm not sure I even completely buy that.) But, in general, "use" is shorter and sounds less jargony.
Harrumph, but you are certainly not the last person to type that you are incorrect and it all boils down to the dialectic.
"Dialectic" means something different from "dialect". I have no idea which you meant.
Not entirely. Consists of (without a modifier like "in part") usually strongly implies completeness or functional completeness ("active ingredients") in the subsequent list, comprises is more free to be incomplete.
This post is comprised good points.
Don't utilize comprised.
> This post is comprised good points.
This post comprises good points.
This post consists of good points.
> This post comprises good points.
As a native speaker, I would say:
* Good points comprise this post.
* This post is comprised of good points.
I'm sure there's an interesting historical linguistics reason for the way things developed, but "comprised of" is well-established usage.
Really? I’d say “this post makes many good points”, “is comprised of” isn’t exactly in common usage these days.
Also native speaker: I'd say a closer translation would be "this post is based on many good points". Or "founded on".
I don't know how universal this is (I don't see anyone else making similar points yet..), but I use all three phrases because at least in my head they have subtle differences:
* "Comprised of" means the pieces make the whole, or at least the basis for the whole, and are an important part of it.
* "Composed of" drops the "important part of it" from "comprised of".
* "Consists of" is even broader, not only including "parts that make the whole" but also "a unit that can be broken into parts".
The differences aren't always relevant, but meaning is lost if they're treated as the same thing.
Edit: Found two further down on this page who each made one of my points, but not all three, so at least I'm not alone here.
The post isn't making anything, it's just sitting there being read by us. The author, however, made some good points in the post.
Additionally the verb to comprise isn't suitable here either, so it's going to sound awkward no matter how you try to rearrange the sentence. The "composed of" or "consists of" alternatives mentioned in the original page aren't really a good fit either.
There's no need to complicate things: this post contains many good points.
In truth if someone said or wrote any of these sentences, I wouldn't mind whatsoever. I know exactly what they meant and that's what matters. However since we're having a bit of fun, I figured I'd weigh in :)
>This post comprises good points. >This post consists of good points.
There are items in the set that are good points.
All the items in the set are good points.
I only think it did in the past though.
Then it should have been "This post comprised good points."
The "is" shouldn't be there. I might be wrong tho, I'm not a native speaker.
"This post is comprised of good points" is probably technically grammatical but it's an awful sentence. "This post made good points" works better. Better still would be getting more specific.
Comprises is not comprised.
Truly? Webster's lists in part:
> 2: Compose, constitute
> //… a misconception as to what comprises a literary generation. — William Styron
> //… about 8 percent of our military forces are comprised of women. — Jimmy Carter
"Yeah no" and "No yeah" mean clear and different things, despite being superficially total nonsense. I've probably heard "comprised of" thousands of times in my life to mean "made of." What's wrong with phrases having meaning?
Whenever I read "yeah no", it reminds me of HN comments from people disagreeing with someone. I have no idea when "no yeah" would be used though.
That's my point. If you just look at phrases as meaning the sum of their words then this phrase makes no sense. But it is a phrase that has an understood meaning.
This just made me realize the trend of using "myriad" in HN comments died out.
I think people mean to say "composed of" but then they change it to "comprised" because it sounds more high-class and elite.
I would say "comprises" in the active voice means "encompasses". X not just contains Y, but X is made up of Y.
When X comprises Y, then Y constitutes X.
Or to use passive: X is made up of Y, X is comprised of Y. Y are encompassed by X.
"Is comprised of" is a totally cromulent use and I would claim it is more logical and more easily understood than the "X comprises Y" usage.
> I think there is a proper use for the verb "utilize": it means "to render useful".
I've never heard of that usage for utilize in my life. In a cursory search, I see that the definition of utilize is "to make use of", which to me sounds the same as "use".
Native, high-level speaker here: "comprised of" is not wrong. You're entitled to your tastes of course, but you'll have a richer understanding of the world if you include the shades in your model.
Thank you for taking a stand against the ever-encroaching scourge of "utilize." That one bugs me almost as much as "in order to" does. (Just say "to"!)
“in order to” and “to” have different shades of meaning, and sometimes different meanings entirely (although I guess you’re right that most instances of the first can be replaced by the second).
Think about
“I walk to work.”
and
“I walk in order to work.”
Close, but not quite the same.
Whenever I come across the word "utilize" in WP, I change it to "use"
Not all heroes wear capes. I also chafe at that misuse so I'm glad to read of your efforts.
Interesting tidbits to know about the English language but I'm not about to correct someone for that.
The Romanian for "to use" is "a utiliza." Bilingual speakers might find "utilize" more familiar and choose it as such. The same might be true of other languages, and a possible explanation for its popularity.
In every other respect, "use" is indeed better.
I agree with you. Frankly, utilize instead of use just sounds finicking. As an engineer, I'd use it in a corporate powerpoint that I make to impress management. These kind of things have no place in Wikipedia.
> I'd use it
I think you mean "leverage".
This reminds me of the David Foster Wallace video on "puff words" or genteelisms - https://youtu.be/52kiS1oV2k0
The (expected) face-value meaning of "comprised of" is usually best substituted by "part of": All Gaul comprises three parts -> Three parts are comprised of all Gaul.
> All Gaul comprises three parts -> Three parts are comprised of all Gaul.
No, that doesn't work.
You could, however, say "Gaul is comprised of three parts".
https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/cw-comprise-comprised...
No, I know, I'm saying that the expected, compositional, interpretation of the phrase (a) exists and (b) is just a slightly archaic passive, and it would still be perfectly cromulent, just backward.
Passive voice is formed with the word ‘by’ not ‘of’.
The verb ‘to comprise of’ can exist and have a different meaning that ‘to comprise’ or its passive ‘to be comprised by’ - and have a different passive (to be comprised of).
Like, the verbs ‘smell’ and ‘smell of’ do not mean the same thing, nor is one the passive of the other.
- I smell roses - roses are smelled by me - I smell of roses - roses are smelled of by me
Four very different meanings.
Gaul should be ruled by Rome. There are no three parts.
Hey there, when you are quoting and ending a sentence, you should place the period inside the quotes. I understand if you are new to writing in the English language.
I feel the same way about s/use/utilize. It's like Joey on Friends using a thesaurus.
See also 'Due to the fact' -> 'because'
I agree with you "at this point in time" (aka "now")
>> Whenever I come across the word "utilize" in WP, I change it to "use"
Thank you so much for this. I do it to. Same with "incentivize" -> "incent
stop the madness!
AAC.
Acronyms are confusing.
But some people also say AC -acronyms confuse.
I thought of a byzantine WordPress site with editing history or something as well, for a moment, despite the context.
Wait, WP for Wikipedia isn't even an acronym, just an abbreviation!
If you read this far, sorry for wasting your time.
I'm still learning :high_five:
WP for "Wikipedia" is built into the site; most of the internal guidance pages can be accessed via titles such as "WP:WikiProject".
[Edit] I generally don't use such acronyms without spelling the term out in full first. But spelling things out in full every time comes across as wordy and pedantic.
Thanks for the clarification. I wouldn't argue against abbreviations per se. Was just in the mood for a whimsy post.
And, in defense of WP, W would not be a better option really, except for URLs.
Ironically, my locale's WP edition has failed to or didn't want to adopt /w/ instead of /wiki/ as the leading path segment for Wikipedia articles, as opposed to the English edition.
Also, thinking about this makes me want to search for edit wars and discussion about US vs British spelling on Wikipedia.
Word perfect or word press
Wikipedia
WordPress.
Wickedly Pernicious.
It's the port in your Wifi over Data box, that hackers can connect their wireless Wifi cable extender to, so you can consummate all the exoteric phonography that the information highway is compromised of.
comprises means whatever people use it for
I don't know the right solution to this problem, but I wish there were some kind of effective defense mechanism in open society against activist superminorities. Pedants tilting at windmills shouldn't be able to alter the cultural landscape this easily. I am aware that their problem and my problem are privileged "first-world problems". The seeds of the open society carry the germ of this pathology, I guess.
>I don't know the right solution to this problem, but I wish there were some kind of effective defense mechanism in open society against activist superminorities.
Wikipedia is nothing but a superminority making the website their playground, though[0]. If you get rid of the superminority, the website literally couldn't function. The inner workings of Wikipedia are actually a fascinating rabbit hole to fall into, but the takeaway is that this behaviour seems to be ingrained into human nature. Basically, the majority consume, a minority produces, and a minority of the minority produces a lot. You can see this in any participatory system as well, not just Wikipedia.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_...
I'm reminded of an old saying, "The world is run by those who show up."
I prefer this one:
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
The small group doesn't have to be thoughtful (and they often aren't), they just need to be committed.
The strong commitment and resolve within a small group inspires others to join.
Oddly enough, in Margaret Mead's case, that seems to mean lying to the world about Samoan promiscuity to rationalize her own adultery (implying that in the "state of nature", whatever that means, it's no big deal), thus contributing in her own way to the groundwork for the disaster that was the sexual revolution.
Coming of Age in Samoa is controversial but the claim that Mead was actively lying is pretty untenable.
The main point of contention is that some of Mead's subjects, 40 years and a conversion to Christianity later, denied having had casual sex as young women and claimed that they were playing a practical joke on her.
Whether they were telling the truth then and if so to what extent they're representative of Mead's other subjects is a thorny issue, to say the least.
>a minority of the minority produces a lot
They produce a whole lot of edits. They don't actually contribute an especially large amount of content, which is the thing with real value.
The content is mostly written by subject matter experts that contribute large blocks of useful text to just a few articles each.
> The content is mostly written by subject matter experts that contribute large blocks of useful text to just a few articles each.
That sounds like the ideal scenario. Any evidence that it is or isn’t this way? I would guess it’s skewed more towards a handful of folks simply writing many articles about things they’re moderately knowledgeable about.
I actually ran a full character-level diff with move detection over the entire wikipedia edit history (few thousand machines) back in ~2008.
The vast majority of content was created by a long tail of users, with a very small minority of users being the last to "touch" a particular piece of text (copy edits, moving things around, etc).
Probably should have published that.
It's a really neat division of labor. Subject matter experts provide the facts from a subject matter-focused viewpoint. Those are known to be rough around the edges, so editors make sure they fit together in a more or less cohesive picture of the world.
As with most human efforts, the emergence of a political layer is inevitable. But overall they seem to be doing a pretty good job keeping their shit together. Even though I have no way of knowing whether the information on Wikipedia is correct as a whole, at least it presents as self-consistent.
>The content is mostly written by subject matter experts that contribute large blocks of useful text to just a few articles each.
I'm not too sure about that, actually. Wikipedia has a lot of special interest groups to handle niche topics, so I don't think that there's much room for experts outside of the group.
> Wikipedia is nothing but a superminority
We're talking about totally different minorities here.
Yes, a tiny proportion of Wikipedia users create a vast portion of the content. But that doesn't mean their views are minority views.
If those, say, 1% of users who are contributors, still map roughly to the same distribution of gender, race, nationality, political leanings, etc. as the group of all users, then there's no superminority issue. If they set policy according to their own discussion and voting, we wouldn't expect that to be substantially different from a larger group.
The problem is with superminority views -- if you asked 100 randomly selected users of Wikipedia whether all instances of "is comprised of" should be replaced with "comprises", probably only a tiny minority would agree. This is a superminority viewpoint, which is the whole reason why this story is generating so much discussion.
A superminority viewpoint imposing its beliefs is a problem. While a small group of editors that is merely numerically a "superminority" is in no way a problem, unless they turn out to be substantially unrepresentative of the larger population in their views.
> Wikipedia is nothing but a superminority making the website their playground, though[0].
It's more like the minority of the minority does a lot of spellchecking and editing, but it seems, much more plausibly, that a group much larger than a minority does the bulk of writing.
Any discussion of Wikipidia on HN is incomplete without a reference to Aaron Swartz's analysis of how Wikipedia is written:
"[He] concluded that the bulk of its content came from tens of thousands of occasional contributors, or "outsiders," each of whom made few other contributions to the site, while a core group of 500 to 1,000 regular editors tended to correct spelling and other formatting errors.He said: "The formatters aid the contributors, not the other way around." [1]
The minority wants you to think that the website wouldnt work without them.
Reality is that their rules are only for you. They dont judge their own edits with same standards. If edits were anonymized tons od admins would get banned.
[dead]
After your first sentence, I thought you were going to argue the opposite. This person's arguments seem to hold water. Aren't the people that argue with him and want to revert his edits a (very strange) activist superminority?
Maybe we need a defense mechanism against bike-shedding, no matter what color bikeshed one prefers?
> This person's arguments seem to hold water.
Not in the slightest. Categorically, he's using prescriptive arguments, which are bunk. Language evolves, people can use it however they want.
Nonsense. Editors will edit based on whatever style guides they use and what's generally considered "proper" usage while respecting the author's stylistic choices as much as possible.
With respect to this case, I'd have to see a given usage in context but I would probably generally leave it as is.
If I'm editing you I'll try to avoid making a lot of changes that boil down to stylistic choice but I will absolutely change things I (and my references) consider wrong.
ADDED: You can of course personally use language however you want. But others will judge you based on that.
The Wikipedia editor here is not allowing personal use, part of their proposal is to edit quotes too - to me it reads as if the person has problems with compulsion and doesn't want to stop themselves from "correcting people" (which is not correction so much as forcing that editor's own personal linguistic predilections on others).
There methods comprise of robbing others autonomy. (Wording chosen purposefully!).
This part of the editor's process bothered me, too. Overall I agree with his premise and have no problem with what he's doing. In fact, I think he is improving Wikipedia with his edits.
But changing quotations seems like a step too far. I think his practice of changing a quotation to a paraphrasing (where it doesn't really matter if the article includes a quotation or not) is fine (if a little obsessive). But actually changing quotations feels wrong to me.
I do agree with his assessment that including people's grammatical/spelling mistakes in a quotation detracts from what the person said, but I don't think the correct move is to change the quotation to something the person didn't actually say. At most, the "offending" part of the quotation should be removed and replaced with correct usage inside square brackets to indicate the changed/added part was not part of the original quotation. But overall I think he should just leave these instances alone.
> There methods comprise of robbing others autonomy. (Wording chosen purposefully!).
I think you are in a way proving the editor's point, though? Purposefully chosen or not (I did chuckle a little), that sentence is garbage, and if I were to read that in something without knowing or realizing it was a joke, I would take your words less seriously. I would think, if you can't even use language properly, and need to "inflate" your words, maybe your ideas are overinflated too.
On a different note, I don't think we should care about people's "autonomy" when we're talking about a resource like Wikipedia. "Letting people write whatever and however they want" is not a positive trait in an encyclopedia.
Fixing "it's" to "its" transparently in many cases is one thing. More significant changes to what someone presumably meant deserves a [SIC]. Something that's not wrong but isn't your stylistic preference? No way.
> More significant changes to what someone presumably meant deserves a [SIC].
“[sic]”, which is always lowercase, indicates something the current author views as (probably) erroneous or otherwise improper that is left unchanged in the quoted text, to emphasize that the author isn’t endorsing the usage/construction so marked. It doesn’t mark a change.
I actually knew that :-) Busy day.
But, yeah, the basic point is to not change a quote unless it's some trivial mistake. (But you can flag it so that it doesn't look like you're the one who may have screwed up.)
Right, and they're free to do so, just don't try to justify it by saying it's "correct". I'm not saying we should write poorly, or deliberately sloppily, just it's at the author or editor's preference.
I'd support this guy if he said "I hate 'comprised of' and so I am changing it where I can", but the idea that there's somehow a logical argument justifying it is silly. Appeal to authority is particularly silly in the context of linguistics.
If you like MLA style, do that. I personally love a little extra diaeresis and the oxford comma, but I wouldn't make them the law.
>and the oxford comma, but I wouldn't make them the law
Oh, I would :-) But I do reluctantly conform to AP style in certain contexts.
That said, there is a certain appeal to authority mindset if you're looking for mainstream non-fiction (and a lot of fiction as well) publication. Maybe "correct" isn't the right term but "accepted practice" or something along those lines which boils down to more or less the same thing.
Someone has already pointed out that this attitude can be described as a “prescriptivist” attitude.
A prescriptivist will say that a term is “correct,” a descriptivist will say a term is “commonly accepted.”
Personally, this is what I say to prescriptivists: if they want a language with legally defined rules - they should learn French.
The rules of French are not really legally defined; that’s a common misconception. Yeah, there is a state-funded cultural organization in France called the Académie française that claims that regulating the language is part of its mandate, but its “decisions” have no legal effect whatsoever and are widely ignored, even by the government and education system.
Descriptivists also say, 'this way works better'.
> I do reluctantly conform to AP style in certain contexts
Why AP style - written specifically for journalists - instead of all the other styles such as APA, Chicago, etc. etc.?
The contexts are blog posts and press releases often targeted at journalists, who will often copy-paste sections, so standard company stye is to write in a way that conforms to what they use so they don't need to fix it up.
Otherwise, I/we use Chicago and Oxford comma.
That makes sense.
"Comprised of" grates at my mind: the sooner that phrase and the authors using it are cast into Hell the better!
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/can-you-use-co...
OP discusses this; the language has not really evolved. Certainly there are some dictionaries that acknowledge the newer confusing usage, but always as an alternate.
Also consider the "why": does this phrase pop up more and more often due to misunderstandings and copy/paste? Or is it because people actually want to change the meaning of the phrase and are doing it consciously? I don't see any evidence of the latter.
Language is important. It's the foundation of communication. I think it's noble to push against inadvertent usage changes that make the language more ambiguous.
Put another way: sure, language evolves as people use it differently. But why is it any more valid to push the language toward using "comprised of" in this new way, than it is to push the language to avoid it?
> but always as an alternate.
This is not true at all. Merriam-Webster includes it as its second definition of three [1]. It is not presented as an "alternate" or as confusing or incorrect in any way. To the contrary, there is a usage note at the end emphasizing its validity -- how it is "now somewhat more common in general use".
> I think it's noble to push against inadvertent usage changes that make the language more ambiguous.
But there is nothing ambiguous whatsoever about "is comprised of". Its meaning is crystal clear.
> But why is it any more valid to push the language toward using "comprised of" in this new way
It's not, because they're not "pushing" anything. People are just communicating in the same constructions they've unconsciously absorbed, like they do with most of language. The only people "pushing" are people like this Wikipedia editor, who is trying to impose an exclusionary viewpoint that, for example, the editors of Merriam Webster disagree with.
> the language has not really evolved.
Are you sure? There appear to have been 90k instances of usage in widely read reference material (e.g. Wikipedia, bar this crusade). I'd say that qualifies.
> I don't see any evidence of the latter.
I'm pretty sure people use it based on the meaning they intend it to have, see prior statement for substantial evidence :P
> sure, language evolves as people use it differently. But why is it any more valid to push the language toward using "comprised of" in this new way, than it is to push the language to avoid it?
I don't think anyone but the Wiki editor is pushing anything. I'm saying use language as you like, just don't try to justify your personal crusade based on "correctness", be it moral or technical. I don't care for that style of usage of "comprised of" either, particularly, but I wouldn't try to tell other people how to write, and I think the meaning and purpose of the phrase is perfectly clear.
Which is why we should ignore them and write however we like.
Note that I'm not saying we should write poorly, or deliberately sloppily, just it's at the author or editor's preference.
You do you, but I think it's insane not to want to have more norms around the particular uses of language. We already barely understand each other (see any political conversation or pseudoscientific debate on the internet where words get thrown around in abandon, with an abundance of ambiguous constructions).
The English/American are culturally less prescriptive around grammar, but other languages (such as French) are often much more prescriptive with it.
Having majored in political science it's rare that political arguments are due to a lack of understanding. They're almost always due to just prioritizing things differently.
I think that's true only when both people have a certain degree of sophistication, but in the vast majority of cases involving laypeople, basic theory (including semantics / working definitions for basic concepts) and reading comprehension skills are probably limiting factors.
ur looking at this from the pov of a linguist...this guy is not a linguist, he is an editor...ppl can use language however they want but i dunno if anyone would write a wiki arty the way im writing this comment...even tho u can perfectly understand what im saying
Right, I'm saying he may prefer a style over another style but it's not technically or morally "wrong", and so arguing absolutes is pointless. As you say, it's fully understood, anything beyond clarity of communication moves into the realm of preference and subjectivity. Even within English wikipedia articles, the Simple English version is going to be markedly stylistically different from main line English wiki.
Why is it ok to be prescriptive with things like spelling of words but not grammar or the meaning of words? If people are using words in a way that doesn't make sense to the reader, such as changing the meaning of them to be the opposite like the word factoid, it's not the reader that is wrong by pointing out that the word has a different meaning than intended. I have no problem calling out such use as being wrong.
> Why is it ok to be prescriptive with things like spelling of words but not grammar or the meaning of words?
It's not.
> If people are using words in a way that doesn't make sense to the reader, such as changing the meaning of them to be the opposite like the word factoid, it's not the reader that is wrong by pointing out that the word has a different meaning than intended.
The reader can say "It was unclear", "I didn't like it", or "that seems like it's opposite to what I would expect", but "wrong" is a silly thing to say. None of these things are even absolute within published English literature, let alone just say American, or UK, English literature. Even if you're following a particular style manual things are ambiguous in many cases.
You know, I'll take a very minority POV: overall, Wikipedia does a pretty decent job of reporting the facts. I'll trust what they say about some non-controversial person or event much more than any other media outlet.
Of course it's not perfectly unbiased, and anal super-pedants do make it intolerable to try to contribute. That said, they do at least make an effort to stick to the facts.
I'm not sure that is a very minority POV.
I'm not sure about "much more than any other media outlet" but for mainstream non-controversial topics it's probably pretty accurate. It may not be comprehensible for anyone who isn't already an expert, it's maybe pretty thin if the person/subject isn't part of the modern tech and hobbyist zeitgeist, but it's probably not a bad starting point especially if it has a lot of good cites.
I don't see this as a problem.
The editor here is arguably correct in that the usage he's changing is incorrect.
You may find it pedantic (and I might agree), but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Does tilting at this particular windmill make Wikipedia worse? I would say it makes it better, even if in a very small way.
Even if you don't care about the incorrect usage, I find his argument that some uses are there just to make the prose sound more "intelligent" -- at the expense of clarity and ease of reading -- to be valid enough. I would much rather read "The residents are former New Yorkers" instead of "The population is comprised of former New Yorkers". The latter is unnecessarily complex for a sentence like that.
I'm sure someone can find a completely separate example of this sort of editing that actually is harmful. But the solution to that isn't "ban all edits of this sort".
Editing for grammatical/stylistic clarity isn't an alteration of the 'cultural landscape.' By that standard nobody would be allowed to pick up litter.
It doesn’t seem like it’s that easy a task. I’d argue improving grammar and language in an encyclopedia isn’t altering the cultural landscape, I don’t think the usage of “comprised of” is a meaningful cultural artifact that requires embodying in an encyclopedias language style. I’d note the person also allows for people to revert the change without consequence if they feel passionate about the cultural landscape of “comprised of” usage vs generally accepted better alternatives.
I actually kind of admire these folks that do stuff like this. These sorts of obsessions are interesting artifacts of the internet’s cultural landscape.
You need to look at those who edit categories. Wikipedia no longer gives much credence to those who create, research and improve articles. It is now full of people poking around the edges.
There is one editor, BrownHairedGirl, who tags articles with “bare links” (note she does not actually change those links very often), and gets into battles about categories that has driven off dozens of users (if not more). They are the most toxic editor on Wikipedia but have amassed a group of followers who are of the same ilk - people who do nothing but poke at minor parts of Wikipedia but contribute nothing of significance - and will remove anyone who gets on their bad side.
Wikipedia is said to have hit “maintenance phase”. That’s ridiculous, there is a lot more to be writing about. Basically these people are killing the project. It’s a complete tragedy.
Edit: here’s an example of the vicious and petty actions they make - they created a category “Abusive, mean, petty Wikipedians” for people who use a particular category that is never filled in on their user pages. This has been there since 2017. We have one user who calls themselves the “category police” who is currently arguing such a divisive and abusive labeling of editors is quite acceptable. The irony is strong in that one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Abusive,_mean,_petty_...
Society always has people who contribute to specific things way more than the general population. And not even just generally in specific niches but some people are just highly productive and highly motivated.
I don’t think there can be a system to balance this without harming the wider system simply because these people make up the bulk of the work being done, and enforcement systems usually cause much of the same sort of power centralization, but often worse.
Of course not all of the work by these powerusers is useful but I can’t imagine a system that only blocks the bad work without harming the highly productive ‘good’ people who are trying to be more representative of the public. Plus stereotypically making the rules/processes is the easy part, because people are motivated at the start to fix things, but after it’s in place the actual hard work of enforcing it and doing it right is often neglected… or these same small groups of “powerusers” will also end up running the moderation and use it to explicitly control things even more.
Although those risks/issues has rarely stopped people from trying in the past.
Wikipedia is entirely controlled by activist super minorities.
Articles are often heavily censored or simply biased.
Maybe the whole internet is?
But I find myself relying on Wikipedia less and less. I think chat searches are probably the final nail in the coffin for me directly access it.
[citation needed]
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
The refrain of the left "what's the big deal, why do you care" is exactly the sort of lazy dismissal that makes people end up resting on their laurels and believing that "one small change" doesn't matter.
We need to get better at pushing back at the first small sign of nonsense, and not let things get really bad before people start to care. Ironically, this wikipedia edit is pretty much the most benign current example of a minority controlling a narrative because nobody cares enough to push back. See all the insane modern language policing.
> some kind of effective defense mechanism in open society against activist superminorities.
I'll be using comprised of more frequently. I was already a satisfied user, but now I'll continue with glee.
Language changes and evolves to serve the purpose of communication. It doesn't care about rules or usage.
> Pedants tilting at windmills shouldn't be able to alter the cultural landscape this easily
The battle here pedant vs “comprised of”. What’s the cultural importance?
Language drifts. The rate of that drift is of no particular importance and that seems to be all that’s at stake here.
1. Create a Wikipedia page explaining the confusion here (borrowing from author’s essay). But also ratify the “incorrect” as “not considered harmful and is permissible on wikipedia”
2. Encourage the author to do something that effects more positive sentiment with their time, even if it’s “wrong.” It could be this behavior is compulsive and author has problems controlling it. At least try to steer that energy, and just do not engage in fighting it.
Idk man, some good soul corrected a common language error on a site where many authors are not even native English speakers.
I am happy there are people willing to do the work for free and that Wikipedia is now better. Hopefully he corrects more errors in the future so I am less likely to pick up incorrect language in the future when I read the articles. Sounds like the right solution you are looking for to me.
The solution is to call it what it is - mental illness - and treat it as such.
Being a grammar nazi is one thing, but editing quotes to match a language that stopped evolving in the 1970s definitely oversteps the bound between quirky and actively harmful.
I'd even argue, in the vein of a sibling comment, that willing to label the activist superminorities that run things as mentally ill is very important. They're usually obsessive/perfectionist and workaholics, yet we're supposed to commend them and follow in their lead.
one guy deciding to change 90k articles unilateraly is kind of insane indeed.
i find grammar obsession on the internet to be insane overall. you ever use the wrong their/there/theyre and have some guy reply with some unhinged comment. such odd behavior
I don’t know about the unhinged comments, but grammar is important and people who don’t care are wrong not to care.
Thats just your opinion. if you understand me and i understand you then were good. my experience with grammar is that it just explains how we talk, like music theory. when your young and learning to speak, you just speak, your parent (probably) don't sit down with a white board and explain noun and complex verbs tenses at the age of four
I understand you, but it's more difficult than if you wrote correctly (according to my arseholish prescriptivist rules, if you like, yes) - you're communicating less effectively by not subscribing to the standard rules; I misread you, take longer to understand your meaning, it takes patience and begins to frustrate.
Also spoken language is looser. You can't hear the difference between "there," "their," and "they're" but your brain fills in the appropriate meaning. When you see it written though, there is a slight mental stumble as you initially parse the word as written, then understand that it's wrong, and make the appropriate mental substitution.
Spoken language is also different in that, as you correctly point out, it is at times more limited in how much information it contains, but also, in other ways it can be much richer in information than the equivalent writing. Things like nonverbal or tonality can contain a lot of helpful or contextually-relevant information that cannot be found in writing.
So writing and speaking, while having a lot of linguistic overlap, are just different beasts.
(Ironically I think my grammar in this comment is not great, but FYI English is not my first language-- I'd appreciate a correction if appropriate)
That's highly accent dependent।
I think I pronounce all three differently (Southern RP-ish (as in not farmer) BrE) but 'their' and 'they're' are close।
Rhotic AmE though clearly distinguishes those, and I can imagine them all sounding similar in that sort of accent।
We're not speaking. You might as well be saying "if things were different, they'd be different."
We're communincatng with English. What about things like ur to replace your or you're in text. None of you can figure that out?
It’s not about whether it’s possible to guess, it’s about whether it’s a good idea to be guessing in the first place.
But you did understand him. You’re pretending you didn’t because if that were true it’d reinforce your point, but it’s not in fact true.
You can't possibly know whether or not I understood them.
I think I understood them, but I can never be sure, because in order to understand something with improper grammar, you usually need to "fill in the gaps" with the most reasonable assumptions possible, and those don't necessarily line up with your interlocutor's beliefs or intentions.
Putting words in other people's mouths is often required to "lubricate communication along", but it should be done as minimally as possible if the goal is for people to understand each other.
See Grice's cooperative principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_principle
Absolutely nonsensical bullshit. Everyone reading this knows you perfectly understood “were” to mean “we’re” here. Engaging in the fictional universe where you didn’t is a waste of time.
It's not bullshit, it's what explains a large class of misunderstandings.
What's bullshit is people who think they know what other people think.
Grammar is a linguistic study and more than just "like, a general guideline."
For example, "you're" and "your" are two very different words.
Let people obsess. They're not hurting you.
There's also a well-known thing about English in that it's culturally much less prescriptive about grammar than other languages. The American-English philosophy around grammar doesn't necessarily transpose to other grammars around the world.
American English is trying to do away with adverbs entirely! Sometimes I find myself shouting '-ly!' at the screen. (I just wanted to leave that comment here real quick.)
... They said, spending too much effort to try to insult me by going through my comment history and still missing the point of the original comment.
I didn't even look at your profile, if you've said 'real quick' or something similar before (or whatever it is you think I gleaned from there) it's a coincidence.
And in fact why would I have? I was replying to something someone else said in reply to you, not even related really except via parent to your GP comment.
Grammar is many things packed in one. For one, it can signal a bunch of things, like maturity, superficiality, seriousness, intelligence. The lack of tolerance, like in you're example, is likely just someone who wants to vent, not a genuine concern for grammar.
The other thing is that writing on the open internet means that potentially many people will read the writing. Good grammar is borne out of routine, but this only works if the people practice the right thing - if they practice the wrong thing, then next time they'll potentially do the wrong thing by habit. So really, good grammar depends on reading texts with good grammar. It's also how we pick up vocabulary. Putting these things together, I think people owe it to each other, and the collective humanity, that they produce quality writings on public places.
I think your putting to much importance on comments on the internet. These are throwaway thoughts. Non of us are changing the world with our comments here. It's just entertainment.
this is literally what wikipedia is for, so any one guy can change 90k articles unilaterally
Wait until AIs start making changes. Human editors won't be able to keep up.
It's just data.
The solution is to organize your own superminority to build a new regime.
> I wish there were some kind of effective defense mechanism in open society against activist superminorities. Pedants tilting at windmills shouldn't be able to alter the cultural landscape this easily. I am aware that their problem and my problem are privileged "first-world problems". The seeds of the open society carry the germ of this pathology, I guess.
Maybe the pathology is this kind of conservativism. I find lack of change - due to knee-jerk resistance and corrupt vested interest - causes far more problems than anything.
There is so much we could do - easy low-hanging fruit - where the only obstacle is (this kind of) conservativism.
I'm finding this entire comment section confusing and I genuinely want to understand what is so offensive about what this editor did. To me this does not look like a problem that requires a solution and I even appreciate the essay (I've always had a hard time understanding the usage of 'comprises').
...yet I'm seeing unironic comparisons to both 1984 and Nazi Germany, so ... what this person did is evil?
Can someone please help me understand this?
I don’t think anyone thinks this person is genuinely evil. I sense people are reacting against what they perceive as a busybody who has a disturbing compulsion to control something that isn’t even an issue.
Even though this person is a lone wolf, their actions feel disturbingly authoritarian. This level of compulsion and control is immensely off-putting to the average person. Anyone who puts this much effort into controlling information seems like someone worth confronting.
The editor is imposing a controversial viewpoint on tens of thousands of Wikipedia articles that is not supported by authority or consensus. Merriam-Webster, for example, disagrees with the editor [1].
It's not so different from if a Brit tried to change every instance of "color" to "colour", or an American changed every instance of "colour" to "color". It would be incredibly annoying, patronizing, and disrespectful.
Wikipedia is not a place for people to wage their private grammatical language wars, and so people are responding in a negative way because the editor is trying to impose their viewpoint by sheer force rather than respecting contributors who choose to use Merriam-Webster's 2nd definition of the word.
Fork it