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By spyridonas 2025-11-197:3917 reply As a European solo developer, I’ve switched entirely to European alternatives for all my infrastructure since the beginning of the year.
Cloudflare > Bunny.net
AWS > Hetzner
Business email > Infomaniak
Not a single client site has experienced downtime, and it feels great to finally decouple from U.S. services.
Those are all much smaller. Smaller providers have a much stronger incentive to be reliable, as they will lose customers if they are not. In a corporate settings management will say "this would not have happened if you had gone with AWS". its the current version of "no one ever got fired for buying IBM" (we had MS and others in between).
Hetzner provides a much simpler set of services than AWS. Less complexity to go wrong.
A lot of people want the brand recognition too. Its also become the standard way of doing things and is part of the business culture. I have sometimes been told its unprofessional or looks bad to run things yourself instead of using a managed service.
There is this weird thing that happens with hyperscale - the combination of highly central decision-making, extreme interconnection / interdependence of parts, and the attractiveness of lots of money all conspire to create a system pulled by unstable attractors to a fracturing point (slowed / mitigated at least a little by the inertia of such a large ship).
Are smaller scale services more reliable? I think that's too simple a question to be relevant. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but we know one thing for sure - when smaller services go down the impact radius is contained. When a corrupt MBA who wants to pump short term metrics for a bonus gains power, the damage they can do is similarly contained. All risk factors are boxed in like this. With a hyperscale business, things are capable of going much more wrong for many more people, and the recursive nature of vertical+horizontal integration causes a calamity engine that can be hard to correct.
Take the financial sector in 08. Huge monoliths that had integrated every kind of financial service with every other kind of financial service. Few points of failure, every failure mode exposed to every other failure mode.
There's a reason asymmetric warfare is hard for both parties - cellular networks of small units that can act independently are extremely fault tolerant and robust against changing conditions. Giants, when they fall, do so in spectacular fashion.
Have you considered that a widespread outage is a feature, not a bug?
If AWS goes down, no one will blame you for your web store being down as pretty much every other online service will be seeing major disruptions.
But when your super small provider goes down, it's now your problem and you better have some answers ready for your manager. And you'll still be affected by the AWS outage anyways as you probably rely on an API that runs on their cloud!
> Have you considered that a widespread outage is a feature
It's a "feature" right up there with planned obsolescence and garbage culture (the culture of throw-away).
The real problem is not having a fail-over provider. Modern software is so abstracted (tens, hundreds, even thousands of layers), and yet we still make the mistake of depending on one, two layers to make things "go".
When your one small provider goes down, no problem, switch over to your other provider. Then laugh at the people who are experiencing AWS downtime...
By KK7NIL 2025-11-1919:36 Very few online services are so essential that they require a fail-over plan for an AWS outage, so this is just plain over-engineering.
> Then laugh at the people who are experiencing AWS downtime...
Let's not stroke our egos too much here, mkay?
By NetMageSCW 2025-11-1918:38 That just leads to an upstream single point of failure.
By yfw 2025-11-1920:44 Depends on your customers understanding that. We had a gym with 'smart' pilates machines that went down. Hard to explain to them the cloud is involved
> Smaller providers have a much stronger incentive to be reliable, as they will lose customers if they are not.
Hard disagree. A smaller provider will think twice about whether they use a Tier 1 data center versus a Tier IV data center because the cost difference is substantial and in many cases prohibitively expensive.
This. There's a fundamental logic error here. You simply don't hear about downtimes at smaller providers that often because it doesn't affect a significant portion of the internet like it does e.g. for AWS. But that doesn't mean they are more stable in general.
By itake 2025-11-1921:39 yeah, I'd like to see hard data on uptimes / reliability between these 2 services before declaring that big = bad and small = good.
FlyIO (and Digital Ocean) had horrible up-time when they first got started. In the last 6-12 months, FlyIO been much better. But they would go down all the time or have unexpected CI bugs/changes.
Digital Ocean accidentally hard deleted user's object stores before their IPO.
By giancarlostoro 2025-11-1913:592 reply > A lot of people want the brand recognition too.
Not to mention the familiarity of the company, its services and expectations. You can hire people with experience with AWS, Azure or GCP, but the more niche you go, the higher the possibility that some people you hire might not know how to work with those systems and their nuances, which is fine they can learn as they work, but that adds to ramp up time and could lead to inadvertent mistakes happening.
This could also be an anti-pattern for hiring - getting people with Amazing Web Service (tm) certification and missing out on candidates with a solid understanding of the foundational principles these services are built on
By giancarlostoro 2025-11-1914:31 I agree, though the industry does this all the time by hiring someone with a degree vs someone who built key infrastructure and has no degree, solely because they have a degree. Remember, the creator of brew couldn't get past a Google interview because they asked him to hand craft some algorithm, I probably would have not done well with those either. Does that make him or me worse developers? Doubtful. Does it mean Google missed out on hiring someone who loves his craft? Yes.
I think that is often the perception, but is usually mistaken.
Smaller providers tend to have simpler systems so it only adds to ramp up time if you hire someone who only knows AWS or whatever. Simpler also means fewer mistakes.
If you stick to a simple set of services (e.g. VPS or containers + object storage) there are very few service specific nuances.
By giancarlostoro 2025-11-1916:01 They also have the risk factor of leaving the market entirely as well, and you having to scramble to pick up the pieces.
By codexon 2025-11-1919:26 I've actually tried hetzner on and off with 1 server for the past 2 years and keep running into downtime every few months.
First I used an ex101 with an i9-13900. Within a week it just froze. It could not be reset remotely. Nothing in kern.log. Support offered no solution but a hard reboot. No mention of what might be wrong other than user error.
A few months later, one of the drives just disconnects from raid by itself. It took support 1 hour to respond and they said they found no issue so it must be my fault.
Then I changed to a ryzen based server and it also mysteriously had problems like this. Again the support blamed the user.
It was only after I cancelled the server and several months later that I see this so I know it isn't just me.
https://docs.hetzner.com/robot/dedicated-server/general-info...
I think cloudflare has billions worth of incentives to be reliable however they can slip up, it happens and that's why centralization is bad.
That is true.
However, I would say that the effect of this outage on customer retention will be (relatively) smaller than it would be for a smaller CDN.
By MiscIdeaMaker99 2025-11-1913:201 reply Maybe? Maybe not? It depends on the nature of the outage and how motivated their customers are to switch over to a new service.
By littlestymaar 2025-11-1913:331 reply The good news is that we're just living in a perfect natural experiment:
Cloudflare just caused a massive internet outage costing millions of dollars worldwide, in part due to a very sloppy mistake that definitely ought to have been prevented (using Rust's “unwrap” in production ). Let's see how many customers they lose because of that and we'll see how big are their incentives. (If you look at the evolution of their share value, it doesn't look like the incident terrified their shareholders at least…)
That experiment already happened last year with Crowdstrike. Nothing detrimental happened. Their revenue actually increased and stock went up
By hoppp 2025-11-2117:18 Stock went up because if they can cause a lot of damage without repercussions they must be very valuable.
>I have sometimes been told its unprofessional or looks bad to run things yourself instead of using a managed service.
That's an incredibly bad take lol.
There are times where "The Cloud" makes sense, sure. But in my experience the majority of the time companies over-use the cloud. On Prem is GOOD. It's cheaper, arguably more secure if you configure it right (a challenge, I know, but hear me out) and gives you data sovereignty.
I don't quite think companies realize how bad it would be if EG AWS was hacked.
Any Data you have on the cloud is no longer your data. Not really. It's Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, whoevers.
By TheCraiggers 2025-11-1912:231 reply > I don't quite think companies realize how bad it would be if EG AWS was hacked.
I don't think they'd care. Companies only care about one thing: stock price. Everything rolls up into that. If AWS got hacked and said company was affected by it, it wouldn't be a big deal because they'd be one of many and they'd be lost in the crowd. Any hit to their stock/profits would be minimal and easily forgotten about.
Now, if they were on prem or hosted with Bob's Cloud and got hacked? Different story altogether.
> Companies only care about one thing: stock price.
Its rarely affected in any case. Take a look at the Crowdstrike price chart (or revenue or profits). I think most people (including investors) just take it for granted that systems are unreliable and regard it as something you live with.
By TheCraiggers 2025-11-1913:24 I think that's more of a indicator that it hasn't effected their business. They lost nearly 1/5 of their stock price after that incident (obviously not accounting for other factors; I'm not a stock analyst). Investors thought they'd lose customers and reacted in obvious fashion.
But it's since been restored. According to the news, they lost very little customers over the incident. That is why their stock came back. If they continued having problems, I doubt it would have been so rosy. So yes, to your point, a blip here or there happens.
By NetMageSCW 2025-11-1921:251 reply Configuring something on premises to match the capabilities of AWS or Azure or CloudFlare is very, very difficult and involves a lot of local money and expertise that often isn’t available at any affordable price.
By protocolture 2025-11-201:241 reply >Configuring something on premises to match the capabilities of AWS or Azure or CloudFlare is very, very difficult and involves a lot of local money and expertise that often isn’t available at any affordable price.
A large number of cloud customers dont need the complexity that the cloud can offer. Like, yes, its hard to 1:1 feature replicate the cloud. But so many people just have some VMs and some routes.
By BrandoElFollito 2025-11-217:09 And they would need a team to support the hypervisor. Znd its backup. And its performance. And, and, and.
This is fine if you are big. Anything smaller and it is a big problem.
This is also why they do not manage their plumbing and do not run z restaurant in house. Some things are better left to companies that do it at scale
It is, in itself.
It does mean that you get fewer services, you have to do more sysadmin internally or use other providers for those which a lot of people are very reluctant to do.
When forced to use AWS I only use the extra features I am specifically told to or that are already in use in order to make the system less tied to AWS and easier for me to manage (I am not an AWS specialist so its easier for me to just run stuff like I would on any server or VPS). I particularly dislike RDS (of things I have used). I like Lightsail because its reasonably priced and very like just getting a VPS.
S3 is something of an exception, but it does not tie you down (everyone provides block storage now, and you can use S3 even if everything else is somewhere else) for me if storing lots of large files that are not accessed very much (so egress fees are low).
Looking forward to the Show HN: I built a web site that uses all of AWS services.
By marcosdumay 2025-11-1914:22 That would be an expensive Show HN.
By runjake 2025-11-1919:05 > Smaller providers have a much stronger incentive to be reliable, as they will lose customers if they are not.
I disagree because conversely, outages for larger providers cause millions or maybe even billions of dollars in losses for its customers. They might be more "stuck" in their current providers' proprietary schemes, but these kinds of losses will cause them to move away, or at least diversify cloud providers. In turn, this will cause income losses to the cloud provider.
By simultsop 2025-11-1914:55 And they sell when get big but can't afford to be.
By nonethewiser 2025-11-1914:591 reply AWS and Cloudflare don't actually experience more downtime, it's just a bigger story when they are down because so many people use them.
You can use whatever infrastructure you want for whatever reason, but you may not have an accurate picture of the availability.
> AWS and Cloudflare don't actually experience more downtime, it's just a bigger story when they are down because so many people use them.
This may be true over a long enough timeframe, but GP stated that their clients had experienced no downtime since switching at the start of the year.
That is clearly better than both AWS and Cloudflare during that time.
My clients (extremely large) AWS based infrastructure experienced no downtime this year. So, if it's based on some random person's clients, it's not clearly better at all.
I don't use cloud flare for anything, so no comment there.
> So, if it's based on some random person's clients, it's not clearly better at all.
Valid. I should have made it clear that I meant "clearly better from GP's perspective."
By nonethewiser 2025-11-1920:46 Clearly better than what though?
By nonethewiser 2025-11-1920:31 >GP stated that their clients had experienced no downtime since switching at the start of the year
That's the least useful information.
What matters for his service availability is what he should expect going forward. What matters for reviewing his decision making process is what he should have expected at the time of choosing service providers.
By lilydjwg 2025-11-1916:48 Earlier this year, a Hetzner server I manage was shutdown, and after I started it via the console, it booted to a rescue system. In the same month, it was rebooted without a reason. There was some maintenance notice but the server was not listed as impacted.
Note that I'm not saying Hetzner is bad. Just incidents happen in Europe too. The server didn't have a lot of issues like this over the years.
Big fan of bunny.net as CDN, however Cloudflare is my "smart" filter for all kind of attacks, AI scrapers, malicious traffic, etc.
Am I missing something or is bunny.net not actually a replacement for that?
They've recently introduced bunny.net Shield to add a security layer. I've not made use of it yet so I don't know what the coverage is like or how effective it is: https://bunny.net/shield/
By herbst 2025-11-1914:11 This is very interesting. Thank you for making me aware!
By benatkin 2025-11-1914:43 That component is what keeps me from using Cloudflare for anything. Not because it exists, but because the way it's run is terrible for the open web: https://www.theregister.com/2025/03/04/cloudflare_blocking_n...
By valevk 2025-11-1912:23 How does Infomaniak compare to Proton? I see they have more office productivity products, but regarding mail and drive?
As an American solo developer, I am close to doing the same. These mega-corps are out of control.
By bananalychee 2025-11-1917:20 Out of control in what way?
By buildfocus 2025-11-198:051 reply I've done something similar, it's worth noting Scaleway in the same space, for people looking for an AWS replacement more like managed services (equivalents to fargate/lambda/sqs/s3/etc) instead of just bare instance hosting.
+1 for Scaleway. I also use Hetzner for most of my compute. But some stuff just really profits from using managed services. I‘ve used Scaleway‘s Serverless compute offers and managed DBs an been quite happy with them.
By moffkalast 2025-11-1910:511 reply -1 for Scaleway, they were a really good deal years ago but have become expensive af
By tuetuopay 2025-11-1914:10 well they're not comparable to hetzner anymore, both in terms of features and price. only their dedibox brand could compare, as it's the classic hosting approach vs cloud.
for the hobby crowd it's a shame, for a corporation it's still cheaper than aws with the extra bonus of not having any tie to the us.
By supz_k 2025-11-1917:01 We are also looking to migrate off Cloudflare. I thought Bunny.net was mostly a pure CDN, not a reverse proxy like Cloudflare. Am I wrong? One of the most important things for us would be DDoS protection.
By sp4cec0wb0y 2025-11-1916:40 American solo developer here. Moved to Hetzner two months ago. They have servers in Oregon for west coast people. My storage box is in Germany but that is okay, it is for backups.
By INTPenis 2025-11-1915:46 Do you have anything for device management? Like managing local admin accounts on Linux, Macintosh and Windows? I'm afraid we'll have to use InTune.
By richardreeze 2025-11-2115:55 Aren't costs higher though?
Are you using a US-based transactional email service like Twilio? Curious about EU-based alternatives.
By pydubreucq 2025-11-1913:521 reply Hello, You can test Sweego - https://www.sweego.io/ We (I'm the CTO) are fully European Bye Pierre-Yves
By tacker2000 2025-11-1914:29 nice, im looking to ditch SES, one of the last services i have running on AWS
Hyvor Relay (https://github.com/hyvor/relay) can be self-hosted. We are planning a cloud version for 2026. (I am a co-founder)
By pydubreucq 2025-11-2021:48 Interesting, I've added it on my Awesome Opensource Email Resources https://github.com/Mindbaz/awesome-opensource-email
By albertgoeswoof 2025-11-1915:141 reply https://mailpace.com is fully European based and independent
They are based in the UK. That is technically Europe, but I believe for privacy regulations it isn't the same as a EU-country, but I could be very wrong. Would love to be educated on this by someone.
By albertgoeswoof 2025-11-1916:12 UK inherited the same gdpr from the EU, so practically it remains the same.
MailPace data is also hosted in the EU only
By smashah 2025-11-1913:21 There are self hostable alts to twillio
By spiderfarmer 2025-11-1913:10 Same here! I also got a nice peak in my traffic, because so many sites were down.
By cortesoft 2025-11-1917:30 I feel like a year is too short a time frame to measure reliability.
By alecco 2025-11-1912:35 This is worth its own post.
By everdev 2025-11-2022:00 Wow looks like you don't have one of the most renowned benefits of capitalism: over-reliance on corporatist infrastructure.
By moffkalast 2025-11-197:59 > Bunny.net
Ah yes, the place for RabbitMQ endpoints.
Yeah we had a good laugh when Downdetector was down during the Cloudflare outage yesterday. So this is appropriate. +1
By cortesoft 2025-11-1917:33 I remember when the CDN I was working for had to change our status page provider when our first one became our client.
This is GOLD Jerry, Gold.
but who detects the down detector detecting the down detector detecting the down detector
By bombcar 2025-11-1914:40 HN is the true down detector - if HN is down TCP is down.
By MattSayar 2025-11-1915:17 I know you were joking, but responding in seriousness - while in general it's worthwhile asking "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?", in this particular case, I don't see any issue with Down Detector detecting the Down Detector Down Detector. Assuming they are in different availability zones, using different code, with a different deployment cadence, this approach works quite well in practice.
By mylons 2025-11-1920:09 haha — this is the exact comment i was hoping to see! indeed, i was joking. The Watchmen graphic novel is very important to me as it opened my eyes to the concept of “who watches the watchmen” which I was ultimately eluding to here, albeit extremely facetiously.
By Waterluvian 2025-11-1913:461 reply > Quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
Arbites.
By graemep 2025-11-1912:45 Can down detector not detect whether down detector detector is down or not?
Maybe distributed down detection?
I know there are people here perfectly capable of running with that idea and we might just see a distributed down detector announced on HN :)
By vismit2000 2025-11-204:50 By PunchyHamster 2025-11-1912:101 reply See, that's the joke, all of them are on cloudflare/us-west-1 so they all go down together anyway
By bryanrasmussen 2025-11-1912:211 reply pervs.
By joelhaasnoot 2025-11-1913:56 Time for the META Down Detector - detecting which of the three is down
By philipwhiuk 2025-11-1912:42 Or "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
By jl6 2025-11-1914:39 Mutually assured down-detection.
By excalibur 2025-11-1914:18 It's detectors all the way down.
By state_less 2025-11-1912:31 There's always another asking, "Are you down?" It's a bit of a bop.
