Silicon Valley startups: being evil, again and again

2025-11-2311:32154111notesfrombelow.org

by Ian Wright // Silicon Valley's startup culture believes it's changing the world for the better. But in reality its culture is deeply unethical since it institutionalises theft on a global scale.

Google, the Silicon Valley company par excellence, proclaimed to “organise the world’s information” and adopted “don’t be evil” as its corporate motto. And what could possibly be wrong with such aspirations? Indeed, most company leaders and high-tech workers, in the Valley, genuinely believe they are “making the world a better place” while also making money.

Silicon Valley is the progressive face of capitalism. We’ve experienced it, intimately. Billions of people, across the globe, enjoy real benefits from searching the world’s information, connecting with people across time and space, and carrying a supercomputers in their pockets. Silicon Valley doesn’t obviously throw workers into factories and mines for endless hours on low pay; such images are hidden, rendered distant by the supply chain . Instead, the Valley, in our imaginations, is populated by knowledge workers, a diverse and smart workforce that designs, solves, and codes in humane office spaces, with above average wages, ping pong, cafeterias, flexible working hours, sleeping cubicles. What’s not to like?

We could consider the Valley’s hidden workers, those who clean, wait tables, wash cars, nanny, deliver packages, tend gardens, fix infrastructure for poverty wages; we could explore the trailer parks down the road from Google HQ, or document the shootings in the streets, the homeless that push shopping trolleys up and down the El Camino, their world a bundle of rags; or the gun shops that sell semi-automatics, the out-of-control, over-staffed police, armed with military-grade cast-me-downs, that regularly gun down the poor; the families crowded into small apartments, the father who spends his days scouring trash bins for recyclable bottles to trade for cash, the human trafficking of women, the prostitution, coerced to serve a predominately male workforce; or the disciplining and harassment of the undocumented, the deportations, the splitting up and destruction of families; or the local charities that collect food for kids, during seasonal holidays, since outside of school time their families cannot provide; or the extraordinarily high incarceration rates that control the surplus labour force, the armed guards on campuses and in schools, office complexes and shop interiors; or the poverty, the child who cannot concentrate in class since their teeth are rotting in their mouth, the extreme and devastating inequalities in wealth and income, the untreated illnesses and injuries, for lack of medical access, the widespread use of antidepressants, the addictions, the dispossessed, the broken dreams and the crying …

Yet these symptoms of a broken and decaying society are studiously ignored, repressed, unmentioned by Silicon Valley’s middle and upper classes. Psychological repression is widespread amongst the highly paid of the Valley. It’s a defence: it’s just too damn painful to contemplate the full horror of social reality. And life can be organised to avoid it, or deny it. So many don’t even notice.

I could mention all the evil business models, where vast computing power and fancy algorithms trawl our digital footprints to track and surveil, to sell and manipulate, to intensify our addictions; and we might reflect on the Valley’s enormous and continuing contributions to building military machines that rain down death and destruction.

Instead, here, in this article, I want to point to the root problem, the ultimate source of evil, and explain why Silicon Valley is hypocrisy on a grand scale. The Valley’s movers and shakers believe they are progressive, that entrepreneurial capitalism is the road to utopia. But it’s not. In fact, the opposite is the case: the Valley is a cause of this horror, of the social ills, and the social breakdown that it must repress: it is both responsible and culpable for creating a dystopia.

I want all the talented, hopeful, optimistic high-tech workers, who genuinely want to make the world a better place, who are about to found a new and exciting startup, to just take a short pause, to stop, look around, think, reflect and reconsider: the kind of firm you incorporate, the institutional rules you adopt, is precisely the choice point between doing evil and doing good.

I will try to explain. My apologies if it takes a little while, since if the following facts were readily understood and generally accepted, then Silicon Valley would already be good, not evil, and I wouldn’t need to explain.

Silicon Valley: midwife of the capitalist firm

The Valley is all about startups. They spring up all the time. New exciting and hopeful adventures. It’s like forming a band, but better.

In huge, mature corporations the social relations of production are obscured by layers of hierarchy and absentee ownership. But in a startup the power relations are direct and visible, and often share an office with you. You can observe the basic unit of production in capitalism—the capitalist firm—as if under a microscope.

Let’s lay out the property relations of a (slightly simplified) typical startup.

The startup has owner(s), usually “high net worth” individuals, either directly present or indirectly in the form of venture capital firms. Venture capital provides the initial funds for the new venture. The actual founders, the ones with the ideas and talent, but no money, also part own the firm. The divvying up of the initial share issue between founders and early investors is a detail. The founders, armed with a new injection of capital, then recruit workers by convincing them of “the vision”. These are the first employees. And off we go.

The owner(s) of the startup are in complete control, and their decisions are final. Owners can promote, demote, hire and fire anyone, at any time. Owners set wage levels, which are kept secret (and the workers, being earnest and highly disciplined, avoid this subject with each other—that would break a taboo). Startups are definitely not run on democratic lines: workers don’t get to appoint managers, set strategy, or distribute profits. Instead, the startup is a mini dictatorship: sure, there’s plenty of technical debate, and back-and-forth, and head scratching, but ultimately it’s a dictatorship.

The owners pays all input costs—such as office rental, computers, electricity and heating, labour etc. They own all outputs, such as new software or hardware, and any inventions (which, in the Valley, are aggressively patented). The owners are liable for any profits and losses of the company. The startup’s bank accounts are hidden from the workers, and out of their control.

This basic social relation—between profit-taking capitalist owners and wage-earning workers—is constitutive of capitalism. For example, today you can travel to Shropshire, England, and visit Ironbridge village, one of the birthplaces of the industrial revolution and “the silicon valley of the 1800s”. You can tour an early ironworks and see the great furnaces where workers toiled, the tiny administrative office (to dole out wages, and keep accounts), and nearby, on a large hill overlooking the site, the capitalists’ large and imposing mansions.

The form may have changed, but not the content. In this sense, Silicon Valley is deeply conservative. It proclaims to disrupt everything, and make all fresh, new and shiny—except this basic social relationship.

Almost all Silicon Valley workers accept these social relations as entirely natural, acceptable, and pretty much fair and equitable. The owners fund the company. They therefore “own the firm”. The owners risk a lot of capital, and the workers receive a good wage, based on supply and demand in the marketplace, plus some ramp-up time to try and invent new stuff, which is fun. What’s not to like? What’s the problem?

Silicon Valley: it’s theft all the way down

Startups reproduce, in embryo form, the wage system, where the capitalist owner hires-in labour at a pre-agreed rental price. In a capitalist firm, labour is just an another ex ante cost of production. The workers mix their labour with inputs and produce an output for sale. Normally, firms sell at prices that exceed their costs of production, which includes the cost of used-up inputs, rent, interest on capital loans, and wage costs etc. Any residual income then gets distributed as profit to the owner, or owners, of the firm.

Imagine that you and I agree to exchange something in the marketplace, say a second-hand iPhone on Ebay. You get the money, I get an iPhone. You may get a good deal, or I may get a good deal, depending on our “higgling and haggling” in the marketplace. Whether a fair price is struck, or not, there’s an exchange of something for something: some goods for some money. This social transaction satisfies a “principle of exchange”. We’ve swapped stuff, and no-one forced us to.

But let’s say I just took the iPhone from you. And you received no money at all. This violates the principle of exchange. I got something for nothing: some goods, some resources, for free. That’s theft. Obviously so.

All startups in Silicon Valley violate the principle of exchange and institute a system of theft. They are theft-based institutions. If the startup is successful and grows, so does the theft, since theft is baked into the institutional structure of the firm, right from the get go. If the startup goes global, like an Apple, Facebook, or Google, then the cancer spreads and the theft takes place on a global scale.

But the theft is hidden. We need some reflection to really see it.

The workers in a startup are the actual cause of any profits it makes. We can demonstrate this with a simple thought experiment: imagine the workers stopped working. Would the firm have any possibility of making a profit, or if already profitable, continue to make that profit? But we don’t need to imagine. This is called a strike. And owners hate it, since it kills their profit.

So, in any company, including a startup, the workers create the value.

What, then, do the owners contribute or create?

The owners, or venture capitalists, contribute capital. They advance money to fund the startup until it (hopefully) starts making money. And then they expect a return. Since they’ve given something they should definitely get something back, otherwise we violate the principle of exchange. In fact, they should expect repayment of the sums advanced and—let’s be generous here—also a risk premium (since most startups fail without making profit) and, also—in order to be really straight and fair about this—some collateral as security (such as first dibs on any outstanding assets if the venture fails). This seems like a fair exchange.

It is. So far so good.

But if early investors merely did this—that is, simply advance some loan capital—they would not become the owners of the firm. Once the startup made money, the loan would be repaid (by the firm), and the early investors would have no further claims on the fruits of others’ labour (that is the value created by the workers).

The important point is this: loan capital does not violate the principle of exchange.

But Silicon Valley startups are not funded by loan capital. Venture capitalists want, and get, much more than this. They advance capital to a firm, but in addition to being repaid, they demand ownership of the firm, i.e. equity capital, and receive stock (shares in the firm). And so they “own the firm”. In consequence, once their initial loan and risk premium is repaid, they get even more: they retain a claim on the firm’s future income, that is the fruits of others’ labour in perpetuity (or until the firm dissolves, or they sell their shares etc.)

And the mere legal ownership of a firm is sufficient to lay claim on its profit. And, right here, is precisely the moment when the principle of exchange is violated. Once the firm repays its debt then the early investors are now made whole. Beyond this point, we have workers creating profits, and owners appropriating that profit without needing to contribute an hour of their time, or a dime from their pockets. The owners are getting something for nothing. The owners can, as John Stuart Mill put it: “grow richer, as it were in their sleep”. There’s no exchange. Just appropriation. And that is what’s commonly, and accurately, called economic exploitation.

The important point is this: equity capital violates the principle of exchange.

Sometimes the meaning of a social situation can suddenly flip. You notice something new, like an object in the wrong place, or a small inconsistency that points to a secret, or a lie. This is one of those occasions. There’s an enormous difference between advancing capital to a firm, and owning a firm. This vital distinction is conspicuously absent from all the upbeat, world-changing, and progressive chit-chat in the coffee shops, restaurants, offices and homes of Silicon Valley. So let’s pretend they might be listening, that all their chatter stops, just for a moment, and we whisper into each and every individual ear: equity capital is theft.

When you take profits, but contribute nothing to the output of a firm, other than holding a paper claim, you are stealing.

Yet this is how startups in Silicon Valley are organised. Cohort after cohort of “smart” groups of highly educated workers are quite happy to sign up to their own exploitation, and cede control over how they organise their working day, and what they produce. The most effective prison is the one you don’t realise you’re in.

But hold on. Look, we’ve woken the libertarian consciousness of Silicon Valley, and its rationality is strong and terrible: those that were whispered to have been stirred, and they reply, in unison: No-one forces workers to accept these terms, and the wage contract is voluntary, and therefore perfectly OK! Go away, annoying socialist, and stop spoiling our fun!

Silicon Valley: forcing people to sell their labour

Do workers freely enter into the wage contract? Do founders, with great ideas, have the freedom to start new commercial ventures that aren’t based on theft? To answer, let’s first define non-exploitative social relations of production.

In principle, Silicon Valley startups could be incorporated as profit-sharing worker cooperatives. In this type of institution, all working members share the profit, which is democratically distributed. So if you join the co-op, you get a say, and you get profit shares. If you leave, you don’t anymore. The firm is collectively owned by its current working members.

Worker co-ops don’t hire in labour at a pre-agreed rental price. They do the opposite. They hire-in capital at a pre-agreed rental price (i.e., raise loan capital not equity capital). So capital, not labour, is merely another ex ante cost of production with no claim on the residual income of the firm.1

In a democratic worker co-op, the principle of exchange is not violated, and no-one systematically exploits others and steals the value they (jointly) created. Clearly, this is a more lucrative deal for workers: profit-sharing is better than a wage. So why doesn’t this happen in the Valley? Why don’t lots of workers incorporate worker co-ops?

There are some carrots and a stick.

The carrot: join us, join us!

High-tech workers, especially those with in-demand skills, get more than wages, they get stock options.

A stock option bestows the right to purchase company shares at a (very low) predefined price. You have to work, normally for many years, before you can exercise that right. The aim is worker retention, and align incentives so workers are motivated to create profits “for the company”. Stock options, in a sense, automatically bestow the material benefits of trade unionism without the need to organise. Any worker is, of course, glad of this potential source of additional income.

But stock options, when exercised, are equity capital and confer (part) ownership of the firm: and, as we’ve seen, that fundamentally means participating in theft. Stock options, therefore, invite a section of the working class to join the elevated ranks of the capitalist class, and start exploiting others’ labour. (In practice, most stock options turn out worthless, since most new ventures fail. But it’s the hope that motivates).

In a small startup, as is common in Silicon Valley, it’s especially clear that the workers create all the added value. But the owner(s) appropriate it. So even the best educated minds start to notice. And this doesn’t seem entirely fair. So stock options function to muddy the waters, and paper over the inconvenient truth of exploitation.

So that’s one carrot, which pushes high-tech workers to sign-up to a capitalist firm. But there are more. If a group of workers decide to incorporate a new venture then, unless they are highly politically conscious and especially moral creatures, they will incorporate a capitalist firm, not a worker co-op. Why? Because you’ll definitely make more money by owning a firm, paying others wages, and keeping the profit to yourself.

Many startup founders in Silicon Valley know they’re ripping off the workers they employ. They might soothe their guilt by pointing out they offer stock options, or throw themselves into libertarianism, which conveniently coincides with their material interests. But it’s a fact that stock is normally heavily concentrated amongst a few early founders and venture capitalists. As time goes on, the founders contributions are eclipsed by the hired workers, and then it’s just exploitation all down the line. The company is bought-out, the founders get their initial advances and more, and therefore cash in, and make their millions. But, in almost all cases, they did not contribute to the creation of that value—they stole it from the workers they hired.

So the wage contract is sweetened by stock options. That works. But the contract is only voluntary if the workers have other options, if they have a choice. Do they?

The stick: reproduce capitalism or wither and die

But there are sticks too, which remove all choice, and prevent founders from incorporating worker co-operatives, even if they were sufficiently politically conscious to want to.

Silicon Valley is famous for its vibrant and extensive venture capital community. Plenty of capital swills around, continually searching, like Sauron’s great eye, for the latest hit company to fund, and therefore own and exploit the efforts and creativity of hundreds and thousands of workers.

Any venture capitalist, quite naturally, wants to maximise their returns. So, if faced with a choice between funding two companies, A and B, where A is a capitalist firm, and therefore offers equity in return for capital, whereas B is a worker co-op, and only offers interest repayments in return for capital, then the venture capitalist will always opt to fund A. No contest. Equity capital is strictly a better deal than loan capital. (And it’s not just more money, but also top-down dictatorial control of the company’s direction, and the working conditions and wage levels of employees. And being powerful is much more fun than being powerless. It’s great for the ego.)

Hence worker co-ops don’t get funded in Silicon Valley, and never will. So all those talented and creative workers, with good ideas for making things that people want, have no choice but to incorporate a capitalist firm, and begin sorting people into a class of owners, and a class of workers.

I witnessed an especially ugly example at an Silicon Valley business conference. An “Angel Investor” (someone who provides early seed capital) presented a talk about the criteria they apply when deciding which new ventures to invest in, and therefore what aspiring founders should do in order to maximise their chances of raising capital. A big factor, for the Angel, was that founders also raise money from friends and family, since “the desire to not disappoint loved ones is a great stimulant to hard work”. The Angel gave examples of “great stories” about teams they’d funded and the great returns made “by everybody”. At the close the Angel invited any founders in the audience to come and pitch their ideas to him—right there and then.

A line of about twenty or so young people formed in front of the Angel, desperate to get funding for their cherished ideas. And there it was, like a frozen scene from a perverted nativity: an anointed minority of one, with the monopoly on capital, and an unwashed majority, full of aspirations and creativity, lining up, cap-in-hand, to proffer the sacrifice of equity in their newborn, and surrender themselves to exploitation.

There was no choice, there is no choice: either submit to capital or watch your ideas wither and die. There are no other practical ways to raise significant capital. Real Angels don’t exist: those that ask only for their loan to be repaid, and not ownership of the firm; who reject the social relationship of equity capital, and therefore only invest in new ventures that incorporate as democratic worker-owned co-ops, so that all profit is shared, according to actual merit and contribution. If such fabled beings were present, the line before them would have been much, much longer.

There is no choice. Founders must incorporate capitalist firms, and must rent-in labour. And workers, who need income, don’t have the option to join a worker co-op. They must sign the wage contract. This isn’t voluntary, it’s coerced—by those with the monopoly on capital.

Silicon Valley culture celebrates venture capital, the Schumpeterian heroic entrepreneur, the dynamism of capitalism, and the gee-whiz technical and creative ideas of startup founders. But Silicon Valley repeatedly and continually reproduces exploitation, where some members of the firm own it, and others simply rent their labour to it. There’s zero innovation or disruption in this sphere. The Valley is a great engine, churning out new companies, day after day, which reproduce the division between an economic class that wins, and an economic class that loses.

Economic inequality has always been around. But notably, in the last 30 years or so, economic inequality, in the rich countries, has significantly increased. So we find people at the bottom struggling for food and shelter, while those at the top earn many years worth of the average salary while they sleep. The majority in the middle work hard yet lack savings, living their entire lives a few paychecks from destitution.

Things have got so bad that even mainstream discourse has shifted to reflect the new reality. We’re routinely told that millennials face low wages, poor quality jobs, high debt, and worse economic outcomes compared to their parents. People now accept that the political system is rigged by a rich elite who’ve captured the institutions of the nation state. And even the arch conservative world of academic economics talks about inequality. And that simply didn’t happen as recently as ten years ago.

Bourgeois thinkers struggle to explain the major cause of economic inequality, because to do requires thinking deeply about property relations and the issue of systematic exploitation. Instead, they prefer to think about unequal human capital endowments, taxation policies, interest and growth rates, the saving habits of workers, rising costs in child and health care, or the impact of automation. They’ll think about anything and everything except the actual reason for inequality.

Capitalist firms, in an important sense, are social machines, institutions that operate within the context of a market economy to “sort” individuals into different classes by means of the wage system. This sorting produces a very specific income and wealth distribution, which is peculiar to capitalism. Empirically, capitalist societies exhibit two distinct regimes: a lognormal distribution of wage income, and a Pareto distribution of profit income.2

In any dynamic society, with a continual reallocation of the division of labour as new skills are demanded and other skills are automated or changed, we should expect some level of wage inequality due to mismatches between supply and demand in the labour market. Also, some jobs are terrible and dangerous, and people should get more for risking more. And some people really do contribute more within the workplace, and its OK if they get additional awards from their peers, if only to make sure they stick around. And some people actually need more, perhaps due to illness or disabilities or additional domestic responsibilities. All this is fine.

But, empirically, we see more than wage inequality. We see two distinct regimes. We see a majority earning wages, at the bottom of the scale, and a minority taking profits, at the top of the scale. Capitalist societies produce extreme inequalities where the top 10% or so take a big and disproportionate slice of the social pie.

And the reason is obvious, for those willing to look: the major cause of economic inequality is the wage system itself. The more workers a capitalist exploits the more profit they make. The more profit they make the more workers they can exploit. And capitalists in the super-rich bracket enjoy positive feedback effects. They can hardly lose. The economic game is entirely rigged in their favour. And, in this elevated state, they fall asleep, wake up the next morning, having earned more than workers do in their entire lifetimes.

In fact, the inequality between capitalists far exceeds the inequality between workers. The super-rich become astronomically rich as we bounce along the power-law tail of the Pareto distribution. The astronomically rich capture ostensibly democratic institutions, a phenomenon that is particularly clear in the USA, so that even mild social reforms are off the table. We’ve seen a collection of post-war policies, that once mitigated economic inequality, ditched in the last thirty years or so. This is why things have got even worse. Economic exploitation has increased.

Extreme economic inequality causes untold misery. At the top we see excessive and wasteful hyper-consumption. At the bottom, countless everyday struggles to live a dignified life. All the social ills of Silicon Valley, many of which are hidden in plain sight, are suffered mostly by the poorly paid, those with the least money. But inequality affects everyone. Societies with high Gini coefficients do worse on almost all measures of social well-being.

But it doesn’t have to be this way. Let’s imagine an impossible event, just for the sake of illustrating a point. Imagine that all the people we whispered to—in the cafes, the offices and homes of Silicon Valley—actually listened, and decided, right there and then, to abolish exploitation, and resolved, with great determination, to only ever incorporate worker co-ops, and only lend capital, and never demand equity, then—with one decisive and unlikely step—Silicon Valley would actually begin to do good. Because it’s at this precise pivotal moment—the birth of a new productive unit—that a society’s social relations of production either get reproduced, or changed. For once you start to abolish the wage contract, and the renting of human beings, you start to abolish economic classes and extreme income inequality. Wealth would then start to be shared more equitably, and fairly, upon the principle of exchange, according to actual contributions to production, and not specious paper claims. The Pareto upper-regime would lose its material basis, would totter and fall, and therewith all the power that goes with it, the ability to capture and corrupt democracies and run them for the benefit of a privileged and undeserving few. The majority of the population would have more, enjoy more, and live better.

You know, perhaps some really gifted entrepreneurs could figure out a way to export this culture, and good social outcomes, to the rest of the world.

Silicon Valley: bullshit progressivism

But sadly, as of today, that is a dream. And it’s not even a dream that’s widely shared. Silicon Valley does not see the connection between the kinds of firms it funds and creates, and the kinds of social ills that surround it.

But why single out Silicon Valley? What I’ve just described applies to capitalism in general.
Silicon Valley deserves especial opprobrium because the contradiction between its self-image and its reality is particularly stark. Silicon Valley desperately, desperately wants to view itself, and be seen as, socially progressive, enlightened, cutting-edge and, yes, utopian.

But despite the explosion of ideas and firms, and the progressive rhetoric, the core propositions of capitalism are completely untouched, inviolate. The coupling of radical technical experimentation, with extreme conservation of capitalist property relations, has been a very successful recipe for the Valley’s elite.

But the very startups that want to “change the world for the better” immediately reproduce economic exploitation: they separate human beings into a class that must rent their labour, and a class that appropriates the fruits of that labour; a class that is disciplined and must do as they are told in the workplace, and a class that disciplines and commands without democratic control. Every time an optimistic and earnest group of workers, with some great ideas, incorporate a startup and issue equity, any progressive content of those ideas are irreparably harmed.

Yet this is the specific evil that Silicon Valley does: it funnels the progressive content of technical utopianism (the increase in the forces of production) into institutions that exploit workers on a global scale, and contribute to extreme economic inequality (the existing social relations of production). Silicon Valley helps produce the dystopia we live in. It doesn’t change the world for the better. It makes it worse, every single day.

The narcissistic self-image of Valley culture contributes to its political backwardness. Some workers celebrate a victory when corporate HR departments commit to diversity in the workplace, or promise to address the gender pay gap. But these are easy concessions for capitalism, softballs, and the owners of your firm will happily accommodate you. Just don’t ask for bottom-up democracy in the workplace, or profit-sharing. Try it. You’ll get a very different response.

But that’s what I do wish for. And I’m talking to you now, fellow workers of the Valley! If you really want to do no evil, to be good, disrupt the status quo and make the world a better place, then don’t create a capitalist firm: it’s a top-down dictatorship, where the dictators steal the money. There’s nothing progressive about this kind of social institution. Founding such a startup is deeply unethical, represents institutionalised theft, and is a prime cause of diverse social ills.

Instead, use your talents to create democratic worker-owned cooperatives, based on equality among its working members; or help think of creative ways to solve the political problem of capitalists’ monopoly on capital.3 Abolishing economic exploitation genuinely makes the world a better place. Reproducing it in your startup does not.


Read the original article

Comments

  • By omarhaneef 2025-11-2314:495 reply

    At the heart of this article is the claim that buying equity is a form of theft.

    That is an extreme claim (in the sense of surprising, remarkable, unusual, and one that needs a lot more support than ordinary claims).

    It is inadequately defended here. The argument that it violates fair exchange is tautological.

    • By sumuyuda 2025-11-2315:283 reply

      I think the main argument that it is theft, is that they contribute nothing to the continued surplus generated after their loan was repaid. So they effectively steal the profits like a parasite.

      Why should they get ownership of the business? When you get a mortgage for your house, the bank doesn’t permanently own part of your house after you pay it off.

      • By labcomputer 2025-11-2316:272 reply

        > Why should they get ownership of the business? When you get a mortgage for your house, the bank doesn’t permanently own part of your house after you pay it off.

        Because the VCs are funding the startup on extremely favorable terms?

        If the startup fails, the founders can just walk away. They are not personally liable for anything. They can (and often do) subsequently form another startup, often funded by the very same VCs who funded the one that just failed!

        If, OTOH, you fail to pay your mortgage, the bank takes your house. And they make hard for you to get another mortgage from any bank by reporting the foreclosure to credit ratings agencies.

        You absolutely can keep the equity (and surplus) for yourself… but you will need to personally guarantee the loan. You may need to declare bankruptcy if the startup fails, and all that entails.

        VCs are happy to throw away money on 99 failed startups precisely because they are entitled to the continued surplus from 1 successful startup. Banks are happy to make failure to pay extremely unpleasant for you because they are not entitled to any surplus from business loans which lead to successful outcomes.

        • By yogurt-male 2025-11-2317:071 reply

          > VCs are happy to throw away money on 99 failed startups precisely because they are entitled to the continued surplus from 1 successful startup.

          And why is this a good thing? I think the past decade and the current bubble point to this being a bug, not a feature. What I mean to say is that VCs seem far too eager to throw money at ventures with untenable business plans or that lack any edge over competing firms, which is a waste.

          • By fluoridation 2025-11-2317:261 reply

            What do you mean "a bug"? A bug in what? If to someone it makes sense to pour money into an apparently non-viable business on the off chance that it succeeds, what exactly is it that you're saying is not functioning properly? The person's mind? So what do you want to do about it?

            • By immibis 2025-11-2318:171 reply

              You're only reacting to a part of the system. You're starting from the axiom that businesses need a level of risky funding that only VCs will provide, and then congratulating VCs for swooping in and saving the day. But would it be possible to have a system where startups to require less funding? For example, by UBI, or normalizing bootstrapping?

              • By fluoridation 2025-11-2318:501 reply

                Sorry, but your reply is so utterly disconnected from my question that I'm just going to assume you replied to me by mistake and ignore it. If it wasn't a mistake then you've completely missed the point.

                • By immibis 2025-11-2322:231 reply

                  You said this: "If to someone it makes sense to pour money into an apparently non-viable business on the off chance that it succeeds, what exactly is it that you're saying is not functioning properly?"

                  But this comment only makes sense when starting from a whole bunch of assumptions, which happen to be true right here and now, but are in no way universal.

                  Let me make a comparison: "If to someone it makes sense to carry a flamethrower to the grocery store to defend against thieves, what exactly is wrong with that?" What's wrong is a society where that kind of defense is necessary! We shouldn't be debating whether the individual should carry a flamethrower to the grocery store, we should be discussing how to improve society so they don't have to.

                  Also, rich people don't get to create a problem and also claim credit for solving it (with money).

                  Edit: much better analogy.

                  • By fluoridation 2025-11-2322:361 reply

                    >Let me make a comparison: Me: "People should be able to walk to work" You: "If someone can't walk 10 miles to work along the side of a road with cars whizzing by at 100mph, why should they be able to walk to work?"

                    Yeah, like I said, you completely missed the point of my comment. Here, let me fix the analogy for you:

                    A: The fact that people drive cars on roads is a bug, not a feature.

                    B: A bug where? Like, in people's minds for thinking that driving cars on roads is a practical mode of transportation?

                    C: People should be able to walk to work.

                    Do you see how C's reply to B is a non sequitur? It doesn't answer the question that was posed, it presents an irrelevant "should", and even if one is generous enough to grant that people should be able to walk to work, it doesn't make choosing to drive cars on roads for other purposes an irrational decision. And, and, it most certainly doesn't make it irrational in the world we actually live in.

                    EDIT:

                    >We shouldn't be debating whether the individual should carry a flamethrower to the grocery store, we should be discussing how to improve society so they don't have to.

                    I don't appreciate being told what is or isn't okay to talk about.

                    • By tucnak 2025-11-2323:171 reply

                      I'm sorry, but it is you who completely misses the point, and have so far failed to engage with your opponent's rhetoric on any meaningful level. (Using latin words like sequitur does not count!)

                      To borrow your analogy: there is, in fact, major issue in people driving cars on roads. This is why many cities elect to reduce car use by means of policy. This is accomplished because there's a dialectic where "should" translates into "must." It's called governance.

                      • By fluoridation 2025-11-2323:35

                        >so far failed to engage with your opponent's rhetoric on any meaningful level.

                        I have not failed to do it, I have chosen not to do it. I asked a specific question and received as an answer something that's totally irrelevant. I am decidedly not interested in whether "it would be possible to have a system where startups to require less funding, for example, by UBI, or normalizing bootstrapping". It has nothing to do with my original comment, and I'm not going to engage with it.

        • By immibis 2025-11-2318:15

          What if we created a system where startups didn't require as much funding? Is the system set up in such a funding-intensive way in order to benefit VCs, who can swoop in and save the day? If so, rich people don't get any credit for solving a problem rich people created.

      • By Anon1096 2025-11-2315:381 reply

        For one, in a mortgage the loan is secured by the house. But more importantly: you can get simple loans for startups too! Banks provide loans that are personally guaranteed (ie if the business goes under the founder is still on the hook). But if you want more money or something that is limited in liability then your pool of people willing to give money is much smaller and they usually want a stake in the business as a condition.

        • By ffsm8 2025-11-2316:271 reply

          The opposite argument would be that the default should behave like the house then, so ownership should switch over to the person providing the loan entirely - instead of passing on part ownership forever.

          But that's obviously less desirable to the person providing the money, and they've obviously got all the cards... Hence the argument of this post.

          I wouldn't call it evil myself, unless I wanted to classify capitalism as evil in it's entirety - which would feel disingenuous to me, considering the alternatives were always worse in hindsight.

          • By labcomputer 2025-11-2316:341 reply

            You aren’t thinking this through. If a startup defaults, it is because they have no money left (which is because they do not have a viable business yet). So there is nothing of value to repossess.

            This is the same reason the bank asks for an independent valuation of a house (and requires the buyer to maintain insurance) before releasing the money to pay for it: The value of the collateral needs to plausibly match the value of the loan, so that the value of the loan can be recovered in case of default.

            The only way this works is for the founder to personally guarantee the loan. Which means the founder needs to have sufficient personal assets to keep the bank happy. It also means the founder risks personal bankruptcy if those assets are not enough to cover the loan if the startup defaults.

            • By ffsm8 2025-11-2318:391 reply

              Naw, you're making a claim that's just not true.

              The company will have some value left on default. E.g if it's a software company it will have the IP for the software etc pp

              Now wherever that's enough for anyone to be willing to take that risk with the loan is another story and thus I could now quote my previous comment in its entirety

              • By HumanOstrich 2025-11-2319:531 reply

                The residual value in the failed startup will be such a small fraction of the funding. You aren't making a convincing argument.

                • By ffsm8 2025-11-2321:13

                  Did either of you actually read my comment?

                  I acknowledged as much... In both comments even.

      • By godelski 2025-11-2320:59

        I think the main problem is that investors are investing in the wrong thing. They invest because they believe they can make a return, not because they think a valuable product will be made.

        There's a subtle difference and it shows by how we even see wealth. We associate wealth with utility to society. That is, after all, why we create economies. We want to reward those who make society better.

        But that's where there's been a disconnect. We figured out we could make money without pushing society forward. We'd historically refer to those people by different names... worse than that, we are focused on the short term. Silicon Valley has perfected the hype cycle. You get in cheap, pump up the price, sell, and do it all over again. It does not matter if it is vaporware, it matters that you can make a profit.

        The problem is alignment. The economy is not aligned with its intentions.

        Do we see much innovation these days? Is there even an incentive? No doubt there's innovation, but people are claiming it is accelerating. I'm unconvinced we're innovating faster than we did in the 90's. That decade changed society more than the 00's and 10's, even with the advent of the smartphone.

        Unlike the author, I'm actually in favor of capitalism, yet I firmly believe that an economy still needs to by well regulated. There's very few economists who believe such regulation does not need to exist (we listen to partisans more than actual economists), and I've found even the most staunch free-market believers (often not actual economists) will have concessions. It's no secret that an unregulated market is not a free market. An unregulated market is a market regulated by the largest entities of the market.

        It is probably no surprise that those who cannot think long term are unable to realize that the rise in popularity of socialism is due to the abuse of capitalism. Most people do not have a strong foundation in economics (why should they! They're spending years learning other skills than years reading textbooks, analyzing, and going to school). But people do know our system isn't working. Is it really more cost effective to build bunkers and buy private islands than it is to make the lives of the people better? I doubt it. But that's the same myopia I've discussed in my entire comment. The problem is how myopic we've become

    • By haritha-j 2025-11-2315:562 reply

      For me, when you start to lobby, when you explicitly pay people to pass laws in your favour, that's when you cross a line. You go from playing within the rules of the system to making up rules that favour you, and it's wild that it's legal much less acceptable for corporations to do that.

      • By cjbgkagh 2025-11-2316:081 reply

        While I agree it is unfair and it would be better if they didn’t, the reality is that there is a meta-game at a higher level and they are playing according to the meta-game rules. Part of the meta-game is to convince others to stay in the regular game sandbox which gives rise to the hypocrisy we are all familiar with. I don’t know what it would take to diminish the meta-gaming let alone eliminate it, it’s very hard to stop things that are very profitable. I also think we’re in the looting phase of corporatocracy. I think the result of this means the meta-gaming rapidly grows like a cancer to take over everything.

      • By judahmeek 2025-11-2316:241 reply

        So who do you think should be allowed to lobby politicians & how would you avoid lobbying from bleeding through unofficial channels?

    • By kmeisthax 2025-11-2316:441 reply

      Imagine for a second that any time you borrowed money to buy something, like a home or a car, you paid that back not by actually paying the loan plus interest, but by a % garnishment of your lifetime wages. That is what equity capital is like.

      Obviously, nobody would take that kind of deal. But what if regular loans were just flat out not made available to you? Like, if tomorrow, banks as a class individually decided they would only accept payment in this sort of lifetime wage equity. Then it's not really a choice anymore. One of the options has been taken away from you. If I take a fair deal and have one of the counterparties flat out remove some of the negotiating options - even if they were not the ones taken - is it still a fair deal?

      In other words, the argument that fair exchange has been violated is based on the idea that market power can be a form of coercion. If you don't agree, then you can argue that every possible counterparty deciding to only offer you a bad deal is perfectly acceptable and non-coercive. "Natural shorts[0] are not coercion", in other words. But why stop there? I mean, even in outright theft, where I'm holding a literal gun to your head and demanding payment, you could still choose to eat lead. We can redefine theft and coercion down to excuse any behavior we want on libertarian terms. The tautology is not with the argument, it's with fair exchange itself.

      [0] As in, "thing you need to exist". You have a natural short position in food, drink, and shelter.

      • By luckylion 2025-11-2317:00

        > Imagine for a second that any time you borrowed money to buy something, like a home or a car, you paid that back not by actually paying the loan plus interest, but by a % garnishment of your lifetime wages. That is what equity capital is like.

        Weird analogy. It's more like "what if you borrowed money to buy something, didn't have to return it, but if you made money with that thing, you give the lender a cut, forever".

        Because the point is: it's not a loan, you don't have to pay it back, and you're not on the hook for it if things go wrong. That's the big upside and why lots of people do that instead of getting a loan. Because loans are available, but people don't want that risk and are willing to give up some of their ownership to avoid it.

    • By cmrdporcupine 2025-11-2314:582 reply

      The article is clearly written from a bit of a Marxian perspective and I think there's a lot assumed ... presuppositions about exploitation and value theory.

      So yeah, even though on first skim I think I agree with the thrust of this article, I think you're right it's poorly defended, assuming it's at all for an audience outside of people who already think this way.

      • By rixed 2025-11-2316:072 reply

        I haven't read Marx since I left college, but in my remembering the only thing that is "theft" in the capital is the initial accumulation. There is no idea that any form of ownership beside that is theft (I don't believe there is any notion of "evil" either.) To be honest, you don't give the impression that you have read anything from the author that you are siting. Marx is like those ancient greek phylosophers and classical scientists who are "quoted" more often than read.

        One could probably say that the privatisation of human communication is a form of "initial accumulation", or maybe just another step toward appropriation of culture, but that's apparently not the angle that the author decided to explore (can't be sure, I couldn't do better than skim that text which looked wrong in too many ways).

        • By Retric 2025-11-2316:44

          I think you misunderstood his viewpoint.

          Marx’s writing predates the US civil war. When you “own” someone and then “own” their labor the fruits of that labor aren’t yours any more than the person. By that reasoning, if you then use the fruits of that labor to buy a house it’s a stolen house.

        • By cmrdporcupine 2025-11-2317:141 reply

          "you don't give the impression that you have read anything from the author that you are siting"

          Oh, ok. Anyways.

          First section of Capital Vol I is all about "surplus value" and exploitation, with a heavy dose of the labour theory of value. It has nothing to do with "initial accumulation" at all, it's about ongoing extraction of surplus value in production, and no, Marx doesn't call it "theft" -- he calls it "exploitation" (which to him is actually somewhat of a value neutral world describing a technical process, actually).

          Whether it's a defensible position in economics or philosophy is a whole other discussion. There's nuance.

          Also I assuming you mean "citing", not "siting"

          • By rixed 2025-11-2320:08

            As the other person who responded to me wrote, I might have misunderstood your comment. I believed that you associated the idea that "property is theft" with Marx, and that's this association that I wanted to warn against.

            But that's indeed not what you were saying.

      • By api 2025-11-2316:384 reply

        Marxism is back in vogue again. I guess people have tried reviving Naziism/fascism so now they’ve got to try reviving the other failed early 20th century totalistic political ideology.

        I get that the status quo has huge issues, but can we have some new ideas maybe instead of continuing to try to revive late 19th century ones that have repeatedly and disastrously failed?

        • By rixed 2025-11-2320:24

          Certainly, to get new ideas it's better to start from a good knowledge of past ideas? If we had thrown an anathema on physics each time a rocket blowed up, nobody would have ever landed on the moon :)

        • By queenkjuul 2025-11-2322:29

          Ask the Chinese how poorly Marxism is treating them

        • By immibis 2025-11-2318:18

          > the other failed early 20th century totalistic political ideology.

          I'm not sure how to square this statement with reality. Which countries were Marxist? The obvious "communist"/"socialist" country was the USSR, but it was Leninist/Stalinist.

        • By cmrdporcupine 2025-11-2317:04

          As a person with Marxian leanings I can tell you it's not "back in vogue" in fact in both academia and general populace actual Marxist theory has probably never been less vibrant or popular?

          Maybe some people get that impression because they've conflated "Marxism" with general socialist urges or even cultural "left" wing identity politics, but that in fact is proof exactly of the opposite. It's never been more heretical to advocate for wealth redistribution or dismantling or restricting parts of the capitalist market, even in the context of a total ecological crisis brought on by industrial production and exponential growth.

          It's not even on the table of discussion in any western country, so I am not sure where you fear comes from. That a claim like this could be made shows me exactly how far to the right we've drifted since e.g. the 60s. That someone like Mamdani could be smeared or red-baited as a "Marxist" for advocating for rent control is hilarious really.

          (But frankly I'm not here to debate the merits or get into a drive-by debate with your half-formed opinions, nor was that the aim or thrust of what my comment above was about.)

  • By gsky 2025-11-2314:502 reply

    Worse thing is they preach like they are saviours

  • By pickledonions49 2025-11-2319:01

    Nothing is ever going to be completely equal in society. Innovation is driven by labor being capital (thus profit), or by influence (state backed stuff loses money in exchange for influence). I have a right to make money with resources at my disposal. Taxes are exchanged for the privileges of citizenship, and hopefully, someday, the ability to not get screwed by insurance.

    Correct me if I am wrong, I am open to ideas. My knowledge of economics is all from social studies class, my brother almost dying because insurance at first denied to pay for his surgery, and making money from yard work and fixing electronics because I am not old enough to get a legit job. I have never paid taxes, but I somewhat understand disdain towards taxation in an age where the cost of living is as high as it is relative to the amount of money one is capable of making.

HackerNews