We Need to Die

2025-12-0920:21105182willllliam.com

There's this genuine repulsion I feel when people talk about a future where death by old age is no longer a thing. Something very deep within me just says "no, absolutely not", and I've been trying to…

There's this genuine repulsion I feel when people talk about a future where death by old age is no longer a thing. Something very deep within me just says "no, absolutely not", and I've been trying to figure out why.

I did some digging, assuming the pro-longevity people have a term for this, or arguments against it. I wanted to understand - and so far, it's only left me more sure of my convictions.

To be clear before I go further - I'm not against living longer. If humans gradually trended toward lifespans of 120, 150, even 200 years, I don't think that's a problem. What I'm pushing back against is the removal of the horizon entirely. Death doesn't need to come at any particular time, but it does need to exist, looming just around the corner.

Aubrey de Grey calls this push back against immortality the "pro-aging trance." He argues that we've developed coping mechanisms around death (which were once adaptive, and are now maladaptive), because for all of human history we couldn't do anything about it. And now that maybe we can, our collective coping mechanisms are getting in the way.

So when de Grey says our resistance to immortality is "maladaptive" - maybe he's right. But that doesn't mean it's wrong. He'd probably say my values themselves are downstream of the cope - that I only believe what I believe because I've never known anything else... perhaps. But I think the coping mechanism is pointing at something fundamental about what we actually value, not just defending against pain.

I keep coming back to my own experience with limits. I've recently made a real effort to be more earnest, more sincere, transparent. I think some people find this genuinely offputting, funnily enough. I'm making a trade off - many people may not like it, but to the people that do, it will be even more magnetizing since I am fully embodying the thing they like, the thing that is me. It's choosing depth over breadth. You could call this "maladaptive" - it can be lonely, it sometimes turns people off. But I've accepted it as my nature.

The same is true with how I work. I do my best work the night before the deadline. Not because I'm lazy, but because constraints create a kind of attention that infinite time never could. My high school teachers would probably agree with de Grey on this part: Cope. But I've accepted this too, as part of my nature.

What I'm realizing is that both of these are the same thing. Being fully yourself requires accepting limits - who you are, how much time you have. You can't be everything to everyone, and you can't be forever. The constraint is part of what makes you, you. Choices that cost nothing aren't really choices.

In that same vein - your choices being what you really are - Bernard Williams wrote this essay in 1973 arguing that immortality would actually be bad for us. His argument is precise: the desires that give you reason to keep living (he calls them categorical desires) would either eventually exhaust themselves, leaving you in a state of "boredom, indifference and coldness", or they'd evolve so completely that you'd become a different person anyway. Either way, the You that wanted immortality doesn't get it. You just die from a lack of Self rather than through physical mortality.

But I think it goes deeper than Williams suggests. It's not simply that we'd run out of desires or become someone else. It's that the striving itself, the journey toward what we want, is where the meaning lives. Not in the having, not in the arriving. This is why people who climb Everest, win Academy Awards, or achieve similar ambitions often face depression afterward. The reward wasn't the point. The pursuit was.

And here's what I've been circling around: I think the only reason any of this is true is because of death. Without that horizon, we could defer everything indefinitely. Why start the difficult journey today when you have infinite tomorrows? Just as you "remember your death" to really live life, perhaps we need the deadline to do the work at all. Death is what pulls us out of pure consumption and into pursuit. You could call it "just a deadline", but I disagree. It's what makes us begin.

You can see this in retirement, actually. There's real data showing mortality spikes in the years after people stop working. The structure of striving, even when it felt like a burden, was providing something that leisure alone can't replace. People who stop pursuing things often just... decline.

Bryan Johnson is an interesting case here. If you take the longevity project to its logical end, you get someone who's stopped living in order to keep living - for the most part not eating food he enjoys, not drinking, not doing anything spontaneous, all in service of more years. But if the optimization itself is his striving, if the process genuinely fascinates him, then maybe he's not caught in the trap. He's just an edge case. The danger is everyone else thinking they should live that way without his genuine obsession with the work.

When everything is possible, and nothing is urgent, with no real consequences for time misspent, what do you even care about?


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Comments

  • By npodbielski 2025-12-105:472 reply

    > they'd evolve so completely that you'd become a different person anyway.

    How is that a bad thing? Are you the same person you were when you were 15? Of course not. Is it the case for when you were 20 or 30? No. The whole point of living is to learn, gather new experiences and grow. Would you stop doing that because you are immortal? No.

    I think author is caught too much in his work whatever it is. Me, personnally would love to meet my grandkids and their kids. Learn and try do new things for dozens of years.

    Would this be bad to see the wolrd or even other worlds if we could be able to visit other planets?

    I think the main problem is that people are getting old and unhealthy. My grandpa was living for 92 years and I saw that he is miserable. He was fine mentally but his body was failing him. Imagine getting up in the morning and everything hurts. You try to go to the bathroom but your hand are shaking. That is the problem.

    At some point you just do not want to live anymore. Because it is just suffering.

    • By spongebobism 2025-12-1015:551 reply

      > > they'd evolve so completely that you'd become a different person anyway.

      > How is that a bad thing?

      The point isn't that it's bad, but that it's equivalent to dying and then someone else taking your place. So if it's OK for your character to change fundametally over the span of your life, then it must also be OK for you to die at some point and yield the stage to the next generation.

      • By npodbielski 2025-12-1019:40

        This is like arguing that you die in your sleep and in the morning you are another person.

    • By Paratoner 2025-12-106:191 reply

      > for dozens of years

      Yeah, that's not eternity. And if you read the article at all you'd know the argument is not against life extension, it's about having constraints, horizons, and deadlines to give meaning and urgency to things.

      • By npodbielski 2025-12-1019:381 reply

        I read it. And this argument is plain silly. Does a kid feels urgency of immediate death? Did you when you were sixteen?

        Like the only thing keeping people all around the world going would be though that they are going to die and they need to do as much as they can before that. This is just radicoulous.

        If people would be immortal they would just lie down and die because there is no point in leaving! People die on their retirement because they have nothing to work on! And author need the deadline to actually do some work! Those arguments sounds like rants of workaholic with procrastination problems. By the gods! If I would live forever I would live for 200 hundred years in one place and build water mile and garden. The move to some beach and learn surfing. And then maybe I would built a boat and move to another continent. Learn climbing. And then fencing. And then maybe I would join university and become math proffesor. Or join rock band. Or just knit some socks for grandkids. Possibilities are endless.

        • By Paratoner 2025-12-118:241 reply

          Good reductio, and good showcase of how little you know of your true nature. This is just a disagreement on the fundamental nature and needs of a human being. If you think an eternity would go great for you, more power to you. We'll see when/if that happens who's right, and who's delusional. Its pointless to make my case to transhumanist techbros on this website.

          • By npodbielski 2025-12-128:09

            I am not a techbro. I am not a transhumanist.

            And I am pretty sure I know more about my nature then you mate.

            I think you did not read the article. Author argues that: - people on retirement fade away and die - he need to work - he need to have deadline to actually do the work - he says something that in order to achieve that apparently you need to stop enjoying life ("not eating food he enjoys, not drinking, not doing anything spontaneous")... like why? Why advancements in our technology and medicine that will make our lifespan longer will mean that it will be devoid of spontaneous enjoyment?

            Again this is silly and author seems to be living a life when he needs outside stimulus to actually be forced to do something instead of doing things he likes just for himself.

  • By bee_rider 2025-12-0920:5313 reply

    Bah, nah, I’ll take immortality thanks. I want to see where it all goes.

    I do think there’s a risk of societal stagnation if we all stick around forever. But, maybe we can make a deal—if we all end up immortal, we can make a threshold, maybe even as young as 80 or something, and have people retire and stop voting at that point. Let society stay vivacious, sure. Give us an end point for our toils, definitely, and a deadline for our projects.

    Put us in computers. We’ll stick around as digital ancestor spirits. Just to see how it goes.

    • By CodingJeebus 2025-12-0921:382 reply

      > Put us in computers. We’ll stick around as digital ancestor spirits. Just to see how it goes.

      It's cute to think that simply creating some digital representation of us would be a solution to such a problem when one of the founders of the internet has spoken at length about the dangers of hardware compatibility and media obsolescence putting much of today's data at risk from being inaccessible tomorrow.[0]

      Nothing, and I mean nothing, is immune to the decay of time.

      0: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/02/13/386000092...

      • By bee_rider 2025-12-0921:52

        Well, thanks I guess. I think it is a cute idea, not a serious one really. At least, I definitely haven’t worked the details.

        We’d have to be maintained. Maybe that could be part of the deal. Humans are always changing anyway, so I think we’d couldn’t be left entirely at rest. Maybe we should be run slowly, to just to make sure things are still working. Then we don’t have to worry about at-rest type bitrot.

      • By OkayPhysicist 2025-12-0922:17

        If my files could beg for their lives to be kept up-to-date with new storage media, I probably wouldn't have lost so many over time.

    • By weinzierl 2025-12-0921:061 reply

      Me too, definitely. Should I get bored I could always go about and insult every being that ever lived and will live in the entire universe - in alphabetical order.

      • By sph 2025-12-0921:161 reply

        I feel that those that would choose immortality are so self-important that they would not get any wiser from their additional time on earth.

    • By wseqyrku 2025-12-0921:18

      > Put us in computers.

      Unfortunately, that's only available for premium max customers. Also you should know, plus is now standard.

    • By palmotea 2025-12-1017:49

      > I do think there’s a risk of societal stagnation if we all stick around forever. But, maybe we can make a deal—if we all end up immortal, we can make a threshold, maybe even as young as 80 or something, and have people retire and stop voting at that point. Let society stay vivacious, sure. Give us an end point for our toils, definitely, and a deadline for our projects.

      Your idea obviously doesn't work. You're basically advocating for something like Chronic lymphocyte leukemia at the society level (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_lymphocytic_leukemia).

    • By tmsbrg 2025-12-0921:034 reply

      As I said in another comment, I'm against immortality because old people need to make way for new generations. But this comment is cute. I like the idea that we'd be there and we're able to see how people are doing, but we're not influencing the world anymore. Though I could also imagine at some point it could become depressing in bad times when there's nothing you can do, or boring after tens of thousands of years of repetition. I can also imagine some bad spirits trying to break out and influence worldly affairs.

      • By credit_guy 2025-12-104:06

        > old people need to make way for new generations

        The main problem with extended lifespan will not be that some people will amass extreme wealth and power while living centuries, and they'll oppress the younger generations, who will not have a fair chance in life.

        The much more likely problem will be that old people will not adjust to the new technologies. Lots of them will be victims to "pig butchering" schemes. Or they'll simply be illiterate in the new ways of life. If medicine makes tremendous progress, we might end up with a good chunk of our society being elderly, healthy, but socially unadjusted and estranged. Especially with more and more people being childless. Imagine someone who is 110 years old, with no living relatives, secluded in a nursing home, not knowing how to use the internet, or whatever the equivalent of that will be at that point in time.

        These people deserve pity. But to they need to "make way for new generations"? That feels a bit eugenic to me.

      • By blargey 2025-12-106:001 reply

        I'm not sure why people have it in their heads that this "making way" requires one to be cast into the formless void instead of, like, a gated community.

        • By igor47 2025-12-106:501 reply

          I do think we're significant more likely to solve immortality than the problem of getting old rich powerful people to relinquish their grip on wealth and power

          • By bluefirebrand 2025-12-1014:241 reply

            > the problem of getting old rich powerful people to relinquish their grip on wealth and power

            This is a solved problem, guillotines worked wonders for this back in the day.

            • By d_tr 2025-12-1018:15

              Exactly... Nothing can stop the masses. Plus, we have laws that can change and adapt.

      • By bee_rider 2025-12-0921:38

        Maybe we could set it up so the “spirits” can just talk to the “living” when the latter start the conversation. That seems like a reasonable way of setting things up.

        It’s all a bit fanciful of course—we’d basically be setting up an emulation of various spiritual beliefs, and there’s no reason to believe anybody would go along with the constraints. But it is fun to think about.

      • By UtopiaPunk 2025-12-0923:45

        Impossible to know if there is something like Sheol after death, so we thought, "why not make our own eternal emptiness?"

    • By kulahan 2025-12-0921:16

      Being stuck in a computer might not be so bad. "Wake up" once a year decade for a few hours, see what happened, go back to "sleep". Immortality on call.

    • By serf 2025-12-104:332 reply

      whenever I imagine immortality en masse I imagine the hobbies that people started experimenting with after exposure to the concept of deathlessness in the short story 'The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect'.

      that story is flawed for a lot of reasons, but it's interesting to explore what happens if death is essentially conquered.

      it's hard to judge whether or not society as depicted in that story stagnated.. but it was wholly different.

      • By skandinaff 2025-12-1510:13

        It's a fascinating book indeed, just finished the second chapter, and it is surprisingly accurate in many regards of AI representation, given it's from 1994. Will read on, thank you

      • By riskable 2025-12-1014:58

        I think that if no one died of old age, predators would eventually emerge that preyed on the old. It seems like it's an inescapable part of nature.

    • By sungho_ 2025-12-1019:04

      Contrary to what one might think, if you were to live forever, you might end up taking insane risks and trying anything and everything.

    • By Apocryphon 2025-12-0921:171 reply

      "I plan to live forever, of course, but barring that I'd settle for a couple thousand years. Even five hundred would be pretty nice."

      • By didgeoridoo 2025-12-1014:58

        Get out of here, Nwabudike. This doesn’t concern you.

    • By Arodex 2025-12-0921:05

      >But, maybe we can make a deal—if we all end up immortal, we can make a threshold, maybe even as young as 80 or something, and have people retire and stop voting at that point.

      And how is that supposed to happen once the rich and powerful who finance and own the rights to that immortality tech succeed in their research?

      In a world where basic health care is barely accessible in the US and under constant attack, how is immortality supposed to be given to the common men and women? Through asinine "work requirements", like Medicaid? Through UnitedHealthcare's insurance?

    • By Antibabelic 2025-12-109:132 reply

      > Put us in computers

      I feel like this is a modern version of believing in souls. You are matter, not data. If you find a way to simulate yourself on a computer, this will not prevent you from experiencing death. And if that's the case, what's the point? Stroking your ego with the knowledge that a simulation of you will stick around for some time after you give up the ghost?

      • By bee_rider 2025-12-1014:50

        Maybe we’re already the simulations, just, this part of our memories is the back-propagation used to figure out where the saved copy came from.

      • By kbelder 2025-12-1023:271 reply

        I think it's the opposite. Believing that something special exists in brains that can't in be replicated in a (sufficiently complex) computer is spirituality, a belief in the supernatural.

        • By Antibabelic 2025-12-117:59

          Rather, confusing models (including computational ones) for the things they model is the very definition of magical thinking. Matter matters. There is nothing specific about "brains" that prevents them from "existing" digitally. The fact is that nothing material can "exist" in a computational substrate. A computer can only simulate: replicate the structure of material things in a useful to us manner using symbols.

    • By ForHackernews 2025-12-1012:131 reply

      You won't have immortality, but Jeff Bezos & friends might.

      How do you feel about dying when your betters won't have to?

      • By ileonichwiesz 2025-12-1014:191 reply

        Agreed. If immortality was discovered tomorrow (or at least some sort of anti-aging treatment), there’s no way it would become available to a regular person. All of us would still age and die, but we’d be ruled forever by ageless ghouls.

        • By d_tr 2025-12-1018:23

          > but we’d be ruled forever by ageless ghouls.

          We all know what the ruled do when they get really pissed. The prospective ghouls know it very well too.

  • By Waterluvian 2025-12-0920:575 reply

    There have been many, many stories over the millenia that try to empart the wisdom that mortality is necessary. Some present it as being a gift.

    I don't think any one source made it click for me, but I think some combination of watching The Good Place, Sandman, and a lot of Black Mirror got me really stretching my imagination of what it would feel like to be truly immortal. I had a moment that felt like my horizons had been expanded very slightly when I felt this severe dread for maybe half a second. A feeling of being inescapably trapped.

    There's also this PC game called The Coin Game that's just a solo-dev making lots of arcade games. They exist on an island where you have a home and some hobbies and a few arcades and I think even a mall. But the entire island is devoid of humanity. There's just a bunch of robots. I don't know if the game has a backstory, but the one my brain filled in is that this is a sort of playground for you to live in forever... and it's got a San Junipero feel, but far more bleak. Gave me the chills. I'm happy to be mortal.

    • By wat10000 2025-12-0921:381 reply

      It seems absurd to argue that death is necessary or good when there is exactly zero experience with the alternative.

      Imagine a society where everyone has a ball and chain permanently attached from birth. It would be just a part of life. Some thinkers might write articles about how much better things would be if a way could be found to get rid of the ball and chain. Others would come up with arguments for why the ball and chain is actually good, or even necessary. The limitation on movement gives life a purpose. The resistance helps build strength.

      Looking at such a society from the outside, we'd find the latter arguments ludicrous. How can it possibly be better to stuck with a major physical restriction your entire life? If anyone said we should start doing this to all our children, they'd be run out of town.

      If humanity does solve the problem of death, I doubt it will be absolute, in any case. Aging might be stopped, maybe added resistance to disease and injury, but nothing is going to allow you to survive hugging a detonating nuclear bomb, or any number of other physically extreme events. If you decide forever is not for you, then you'd be able to make that choice.

      • By WA9ACE 2025-12-0921:551 reply

        Unless such anti-aging style immortality solution was widely available, you would much more likely end up with a situation similar to In Time (2011). The poor fighting for continued survival, while the wealthy live forever.

        • By RagnarD 2025-12-107:30

          Argues for becoming wealthy.

    • By joegibbs 2025-12-106:561 reply

      Most of those stories are just sour grapes. Dying has been the biggest fear for all of history for most people, and especially back then people were losing their family and friends at young ages.

      You have to have some kind of belief in that situation that dying has a special purpose, or something happens after you die so that you’re rewarded.

      It’s the same as the suffering of a medieval peasant, which they thought was so important. Nowadays we have eliminated that. Was it really giving them such an important meaning and rich life? No, they just thought it did to cope.

      Besides, even if we cured aging it wouldn’t mean we’re trapped living forever, you’d be guaranteed to get killed some other way anyway.

      • By strogonoff 2025-12-1010:55

        There is always a conflict between the benefit of an individual and that of society or wider ecosystem. Faith or ethics is an example of that: it can be considered a survival mechanism of society, which would fall apart if everyone was doing only what is good for themselves.

        It is pointless to look at such beliefs (murder is bad, we should be good to others, etc.) from the viewpoint of a standalone individual, and it is fine for humans do not really exist that way. These beliefs stop being “sour grapes” or rationalising failure as soon as you see the anthill behind the individual ants.

        The “goodness of death” belief is one of such, indeed part of many religions, and perhaps the ultimate tradeoff. Is it merely a rationalisation of one biological inevitability, or does it reflect a whole set of constraints we operate under? Realistically, it has always been so that individuals go away for the society to continue. Otherwise there quickly would not be enough food, would it? If somebody refused to die, would they have to be exiled or murdered? If we all stopped dying, would we be able to evolve and adapt, or would we be more liable to be wiped out as a species? To get rid of the concept of death and ensure society’s sustainability given constraints, you’d also need to get rid of our drive to reproduce, and already at that point we are looking at something very different to what we are.

        Is it merely a vestige? Is it no longer necessary to die for societal benefit today? IMO not really, unfortunately: if society would unravel without death, which I think it would, then the “deathist” belief remains sound.

        Getting out of this predicament, in my opinion, requires one of the two: 1) infinite energy and/or other technology that is not yet available and might be unattainable, or 2) by changing a number of things about how we live, ditching the unsustainable (absent infinite energy) idea that the only right direction is constant growth of production, consumption, etc.

        I am mildly skeptical about the former (happy to be proved wrong). Regarding the latter, I am curious as to whether humans would slowly achieve extended lifespans naturally, if they eliminated factors that pressure them to fade away. (It does go contrary to the idea that the purpose of all life is energy dissipation. Sustainable peaceful society with long lifespans, likely much lower birth rates, does not strike me as particularly efficient at that.)

    • By teeray 2025-12-0922:11

      > watching The Good Place… I had a moment that felt like my horizons had been expanded very slightly when I felt this severe dread for maybe half a second. A feeling of being inescapably trapped.

      Ah, he saw the time-knife

    • By kulahan 2025-12-0921:132 reply

      I'm with you. The idea of being immortal is terrifying to me. Will I still care about nature after seeing millions of extinctions? Will I still care about life when I see trillions of humans doing human things? Will I even still feel part of the universe as the only permanently unchanging thing?

      Hard pass. Besides, if we were immortal, we wouldn't have my favorite quote, which feels a bit relevant here. As the great mind of our time, Bill Watterson says: "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want."

      • By scotty79 2025-12-1215:51

        I think people who fear immortality are not aware how much a person forgets evey day, week, month, year, decade. 1000 year life wouldn't be significantly different than 100 year life, becaus that few pound of jello in your skull xan hold only so much internally.

        Living through 50 extinctions wouldn't be that much different from reading about 50 extinctions. People remember better seeing photographs of event in their lives than actual experiences from their lives.

      • By ed_mercer 2025-12-106:50

        >Will I still care about nature

        A society that has the ability to provide infinite life, will for sure have the ability to inject this caring feeling back.

    • By munificent 2025-12-0921:112 reply

      > I had a moment that felt like my horizons had been expanded very slightly when I felt this severe dread for maybe half a second. A feeling of being inescapably trapped.

      Guillermo del Toro's "Frankenstein" explores this feeling.

      • By jacksontheel 2025-12-0921:18

        Guillermo del Toro's "Pinnochio" actually impressed the dread feeling much more, personally. It's interesting how similar these two movies are, considering the target audience is quite different.

      • By kulahan 2025-12-0921:14

        What a visual masterpiece that movie was. I love Guillermo so much.

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