Meta shuts down global accounts linked to abortion advice and queer content

2025-12-1111:26368344www.theguardian.com

More than 50 organisations report sites being restricted or removed, with abortion hotlines blocked and posts showing non-explicit nudity triggering warnings

Meta has removed or restricted dozens of accounts belonging to abortion access providers, queer groups and reproductive health organisations in the past weeks in what campaigners call one of the “biggest waves of censorship” on its platforms in years.

The takedowns and restrictions began in October and targeted the Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp accounts of more than 50 organisations worldwide, some serving tens of thousands of people – in what appears to be a growing push by Meta to limit reproductive health and queer content across its platforms. Many of these were from Europe and the UK, however the bans also affected groups serving women in Asia, Latin America and the Middle East.

Repro Uncensored, an NGO tracking digital censorship against movements focused on gender, health and justice, said that it had tracked 210 incidents of account removals and severe restrictions affecting these groups this year, compared with 81 last year.

Meta denied an escalating trend of censorship. “Every organisation and individual on our platforms is subject to the same set of rules, and any claims of enforcement based on group affiliation or advocacy are baseless,” it said in a statement, adding that its policies on abortion-related content had not changed.

A black box that says ‘We suspended your account, The Queer Agenda’ in the middle of squares of social media content
In a recent purge queer and sex-positive accounts were banned. Photograph: Courtesy of Repro Uncensored

Campaigners say the actions indicate that Meta is taking its Trump-era approach to women’s health and LGBTQ+ issues global. Earlier this year, it appeared to “shadow-ban” or remove the accounts of organisations on Instagram or Facebook helping Americans to find abortion pills. Shadow-banning is when a social media platform severely restricts the visibility of a user’s content without telling the user.

In this latest purge, it blocked abortion hotlines in countries where abortion is legal, banned queer and sex-positive accounts in Europe, and removed posts with even non-explicit, cartoon depictions of nudity.

“Within this last year, especially since the new US presidency, we have seen a definite increase in accounts being taken down – not only in the US, but also worldwide as a ripple effect,” said Martha Dimitratou, executive director of Repro Uncensored.

Mark Zuckerberg and Donald Trump sit at a table laughing; Trump has his hand on Zuckerberg’s back.
US president Donald Trump jokes with Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, left, as he hosts tech leaders for a dinner in the state dining room of the White House in Washington DC in September 2025. Photograph: Saul Loeb/AFP/Getty Images

“This has been, to my knowledge, at least one of the biggest waves of censorship we are seeing,” she said.


Campaigners have accused Meta of being condescending and unresponsive, with the company offering only vague reasons why certain accounts were taken down – and appearing unwilling to engage.

In one email shared with the Guardian, a Meta consultant appears to invite a number of reproductive health organisations to a closed-door online briefing about “the challenges that you are facing with Meta’s content moderation policies”.

The email says the meeting “will not be an opportunity to raise critiques of Meta’s practices or to offer recommendations for policy changes”.

Dimitratou said such closed-door meetings had happened before, saying they “reinforce the power imbalance that allows big tech to decide whose voices are amplified and whose are silenced”.

In another instance, a Meta employee counselled an affected organisation in a personal message to simply move away from the platform entirely and start a mailing list, saying that bans were likely to continue. Meta said it did not send this message.

Meta’s recent takedowns are part of a broader pattern of the company purging accounts, and then – at times – appearing to backtrack after public pressure, said Carolina Are, a fellow at Northumbria University’s Centre for Digital Citizens.

“It wouldn’t be as much of a problem if platforms’ appeals actually worked, but they don’t. And appeals are the basis of any democratic justice system,” she added.

Meta said that it aimed to reduce enforcement mistakes against accounts on its platform, but added that the appeals process for banned accounts had become frustratingly slow.

Organisations affected by the bans include Netherlands-registered Women Help Women, a nonprofit offering information about abortion to women worldwide, including in Brazil, the Philippines and Poland. It fields about 150,000 emails from women each year, said its executive director, Kinga Jelinska.

A black box that says ‘We suspended your page’ in the middle of squares of social media content
The feminist group Women Help Women had their page banned by Meta in November, but it has since been reinstated. Photograph: Courtesy of Repro Uncensored

Women Help Women has been on Facebook for 11 years, said Jelinska, and while its account had been suspended before, this was the first time it was banned outright. The ban could be “life-threatening”, she said, pushing some women towards dangerous, less reliable information sources. Little explanation was given for the ban.

A message from Meta to the group dated 13 November said its page “does not follow our Community Standards on prescription drugs”, adding: “We know this is disappointing, but we want to keep Facebook safe and welcoming for everyone.”

“It’s a very laconic explanation, a feeling of opacity,” Jelinska said. “They just removed it. That’s it. We don’t even know which post it was about.”

Meta said more than half of the accounts flagged by Repro Uncensored have been reinstated, including Women Help Women which it said was taken down in error. “The disabled accounts were correctly removed for violating a variety of our policies including our Human Exploitation policy,” it added.

Jacarandas was founded by a group of young feminists when abortion was decriminalised in Colombia in 2022, to advise women and girls on how to get a free, legal abortion. The group’s executive director, Viviana Monsalve, said its WhatsApp helpline had been blocked then reinstated three times since October. The WhatsApp account is currently banned and Monsalve said they had received little information from Meta about whether this would continue.

“We wrote [Meta] an email and said, ‘hey, we are a feminist organisation. We work in abortion. Abortion is allowed in Colombia up to 24 weeks. It’s allowed to give information about it,’” said Monsalve.

Without Meta’s cooperation, Monsalve said it was difficult to plan for the future. “You are not sure if [a ban] will happen tomorrow or after tomorrow, because they didn’t answer anything.”

Meta said: “Our policies and enforcement regarding abortion medication-related content have not changed: we allow posts and ads promoting healthcare services like abortion, as well as discussion and debate around them, as long as they follow our policies.”

While groups such as Jacarandas and Women Help Women had their accounts removed outright, other groups said that they increasingly faced Meta restricting their posts and shadow-banning their content.

Fatma Ibrahim, the director of the Sex Talk Arabic, a UK-based platform which offers Arabic-language content on sexual and reproductive health, said that the organisation had received a message almost every week from Meta over the past year saying that its page “didn’t follow the rules” and would not be suggested to other people, based on posts related to sexuality and sexual health.

An illustration of a naked man and woman walking along a path with an arm around each others’ wait while pink hearts float around, one covering their bottoms.
An Instagram post from The Sex Talk Arabic that triggered a nudity warning and was removed by Meta. Photograph: Courtesy of Thesextalkarabic

Two weeks ago, these messages escalated to a warning, in which Meta noted its new policies on nudity and removed a post from the Sex Talk Arabic’s page. The offending post was an artistic depiction of a naked couple, obscured by hearts.

Ibrahim said the warning was “condescending”, and that Meta’s moderation was US-centric and lacked context.

“Despite the profits they make from our region, they don’t invest enough to understand the social issues women fight against and why we use social media platforms for such fights,” she said.


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Comments

  • By lta 2025-12-1113:1313 reply

    The memory of Zuckerberg blabbering about Facebook positive social impact and mission of "Making the world more open and connected" triggers strong cognitive dissonance when reading this article.

    Same as when remembering the "Don't be evil" moto from Google.

    I'm wondering if at some level we always knew it would end up like this. What kind of moral shield can we claim from this mess ? I'm afraid it's actually very little

    • By gary_0 2025-12-1113:403 reply

      And AFAIK Brin & Page and Zuckerberg still maintain majority voting control over their companies. They could enforce any policy they wanted from on high, and the worst that would happen is the number next to their name would go down a bit. Brin & Page could give the order to make Search work again or you're all fired, and Zuck could mandate no censorship of minorities or else, but they don't. There's nobody to shift blame to; this is just what billions of dollars does to "free-spirited hackers".

      • By cmrdporcupine 2025-12-1114:011 reply

        Re-reading the Google IPO founders letter to prospective shareholders every once in a while is a sobering experience.

      • By underlipton 2025-12-1115:322 reply

        The anecdote I love to give is that I didn't know that Brin went to my high school until after I'd graduated. It's a high-performing public school due to its proximity to several research institutions, but it was never exactly loaded, and certainly could have benefited from outside investment (say, to replace the 20ish "temporary" trailers with a new wing). Even just having him show up to give a talk to students would have been amazing. Not a peep from this man, though, let alone the pocket change to help out his alma mater.

        • By disqard 2025-12-1117:18

          This is the flip side of the "self-made man" narrative.

          It allows one to disavow any sense of social reciprocity after becoming obscenely rich.

          I was curious, so I looked through his Wikipedia page -- it says he donated $1m to the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society in 2009 (which helped his family move to USA when he was a child). Even the NYT article notes that "The gift is small, given Mr. Brin’s estimated $16 billion in personal wealth" :D

          (this is like you making $1m annually and donating $62.50)

        • By Jensson 2025-12-122:231 reply

          Why would your school get money from him and not just education in general?

          • By ethbr1 2025-12-1215:051 reply

            If someone becomes successful, it's common to pay it back by helping out the steps that might have led to that success.

            Brin didn't go to every high school: he went to the one he did.

            And maybe he had a terrible experience and thought it contributed nothing to his success... but that's kind of a dick perspective at a certain level of wealth, especially if a school has needs (and they always do).

            • By DerArzt 2025-12-1219:481 reply

              You're describing what a well designed tax system should be doing. Philanthropy is just the rich convincing us that things are fine, and we shouldn't worry that billionaires exist.

              • By ethbr1 2025-12-1220:591 reply

                A tax system takes the amount required to fund society to the equality level desired.

                In anything less than a fully-equalizing society, philanthropy still has a place.

                (Said as someone who thinks higher wealth brackets, including my own, should be taxed more heavily)

                • By yencabulator 2025-12-151:15

                  I guess the Nordic societies have to really equal then, because I can't remember ever even hearing of anyone donating anything to a single school. Like.. there's nothing in the system for a school to even be prepared to even own a donation. A school over there doesn't manage a financial fund, it runs on an annual municipal budget. It's all tax money.

                  The parent commenter put it well, philanthropy is just the rich convincing [America] that things are fine.

      • By usrusr 2025-12-1114:093 reply

        "and the worst that would happen is the number next to their name would go down a bit."

        That's the thing, you can only have that kind of number for so many years before you start really not wanting it to get down.

        And chances are they have been buying quite a bit of lifestyle by borrowing against that number. Because selling would strip them of that voting control you pointed out. Then they can't really afford the number to go down, because the borrowing is effectively a cascade, so in reality they aren't anywhere close to free in their decisions.

        (but I'd imagine that they are quite capable of deluding themselves into believing that the decisions they have to take to keep the number up are what they actually want)

        • By gary_0 2025-12-1114:171 reply

          While I'm sure their finances are a bit more complicated than "they have infinite money", I find it hard to believe that people who can buy and sell small countries and ruin millions of lives with a few keystrokes are as powerless as you might be implying. "If you owe the bank $100, that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem."

          • By Freak_NL 2025-12-1114:301 reply

            These people have all set up financial constructions that will see them and their children safely into old age with the very best of medical care, pocket money to the tune of being able to just buy off the whole evening of their favourite fancy restaurant for the night for just the two of you on a whim, and owning one or two private fucking islands in perpetuity, whatever happens to their megacorps.

            They can indeed do with their toys whatever they want. They just don't want to put up with the bother of other investors trying to get rid of them, or the orange guy not sending them a Christmas card, or having a little less than infinite money.

            • By usrusr 2025-12-1116:21

              What they don't have is financial constructions that would leave them in nominal control when they go down that path. And they absolutely do want to stay in control, or else they would have sold a long time ago.

              Even if that control is only nominal, of it comes at the price of anticipating every wish institutional investors might have and obediently following them to the (unwritten) letter.

        • By eunoia 2025-12-1114:42

          We have extremely old words for this kind of behavior: greed, avarice. Traditionally they have not been considered good things.

        • By crote 2025-12-1115:01

          > That's the thing, you can only have that kind of number for so many years before you start really not wanting it to get down.

          Why shouldn't this be classified as a mental illness? Imagine a monkey hoarding more food than they could possibly eat, to the point that it lies next to them rotting away, while members of their tribe are dying from starvation. We'd immediately say that there is something wrong with that money, but why do we feel it is normal that some humans hoard an insane amount of money?

          Having a billionaire who believes they aren't rich enough and need to make more money is like an anorexia patient believing they aren't skinny enough and need to lose more weight.

    • By the_af 2025-12-1113:422 reply

      The lesson, to me, is remembering company mottos like these are meaningless because corporations are fundamentally amoral. They are made of people, yes, and these people do have moral values, but the corporation as a whole doesn't. Whatever tagline, whatever "inclusivity commitment", whatever "anti-discrimination" policies, whatever "diversity makes us stronger" motto: all of those are shallow, meaningless taglines. The corporation will adopt them when it will help their business, and ditch them just as fast when it doesn't (e.g. when a powerful politician doesn't like it and can harm your business).

      Next time your company makes you sit through one of these trainings, for whatever so-called value, remember: the company doesn't believe in it. It only believes in making money.

      • By underlipton 2025-12-1115:491 reply

        Pushing back for the sake of conversation: corporations are amoral, because they're containers for business activities. Those activities don't necessarily inherit that amorality, though. A business decision is made by a person, and so is a task undertaken or okayed by an employee; those can therefore be subject to measures of morality. Because people involved in a company have the capacity for moral or immoral action, it is in the company's best interest to monitor and correct behavior.

        • By the_af 2025-12-1116:151 reply

          You're right.

          I don't think it's a benefit to society that corporations behave like amoral sociopaths. It should be in their interest to correct that behavior.

          However, my point is this (slightly exaggerated) timeline:

          1. "Diversity makes us stronger! Discrimination is bad! Power to women! Respect gender identities! Stop fake news!".

          2. Go do all these trainings to improve yourself on those topics. We mandate this because we care, it's our inner moral fiber!

          3. (election happens, government changes)

          4. Actually, forget all of the above. The previous administration forced us, we now believe otherwise and we're decommissioning all those programs. Sorry we forced you!

          So in the end, no value a corporation espouses is genuine, unless it's making money. So all those trainings? Fake. All those "values"? Fake. Individuals within the company may care, but the company as a whole doesn't (and let's face it, the CEO and board don't either, and never did).

          If we're feeling charitable, we could argue any given company reflects the current (corporate) consensus about what's good/safe for business and for society, but always dressed in the language of "we genuinely believe this, it's heartfelt, and we're also trend setters because we care!". It's this last part that is 100% fake. At best they do what's safe for the current social/business climate; nothing is "heartfelt". If it was heartfelt, they would stand up to the bullies instead of saying "we never believed it, it was forced on us by the past evil administration!".

          • By ethbr1 2025-12-1215:19

            > So in the end, no value a corporation espouses is genuine, unless it's making money.

            This is the ultimate rub.

            There are constructions that corporations can implement in order to enforce values, but they fundamentally mean giving up control.

            Because at root, control by people prioritizing making money above all else is what causes these decisions to be reevaluated. Aka when following principles has a serious financial cost.

            Public benefit corp, non-profit, independent board, etc. are options.

            Google, Facebook, OpenAI... at this point it shouldn't surprise anyone when 'you were saying something about best intentions' goes awry.

            Hell, OpenAI's wriggling to get out of its charter (and honestly, its difficulty in doing so) and NewsCorp's attempt to forcibly assign control counter to trust planning should point out that 'Yes, you can make it harder to be evil.'

            Google just didn't.

      • By HK-NC 2025-12-1916:23

        The corporation being legally a person sadly enables actual amoral people.

    • By johnnyanmac 2025-12-1121:15

      >I'm wondering if at some level we always knew it would end up like this

      A very deep level. The level that joked about "pride month" being thrown put like Christmas decorations on July 1st.

      The more positive sentiment back then is that bigotry wouldn't ever be profitable again as the world experienced more experiences and built more empathy. Of course, I can only laugh hysterically at poor 2014/2015 me.

    • By bell-cot 2025-12-1114:56

      > I'm wondering if at some level we always knew ...

      Roughly speaking, the folks who truly cared knew.

      Corporations have obvious market/regulatory incentives to say they're good guys.

      Most people want to believe such statements, with the immediate incentive being a happier worldview.

      Incentives for an extremely powerful corporation to actually be good are far weaker.

    • By dfxm12 2025-12-1114:551 reply

      I'm wondering if at some level we always knew it would end up like this.

      Persecuting marginalized people and supporting authoritarian regimes is the logical path for capitalism, yes.

      • By underlipton 2025-12-1115:37

        The parallels between today's techbros and the plantation magnates who pushed us towards the Civil War are unnerving, when you know that history (which is why they don't teach it).

    • By snickerbockers 2025-12-1114:054 reply

      Julian Assange wrote an excellent book on this topic called "when Google met wikileaks" about a decade ago which i found to be eye-opening. The backdrop is the "arab spring" uprisings of the early 10s, which were widely touted by leaders in both silicon Valley and Washington as an example of the positive impacts of social media, a mere five years before this opinion was suddenly reversed when some of these positive effects came home.

      The titular event is an account of when one of Google's executives came to britain to meet him in person (at this point he's fighting extradition to the United States but has not yet sequestered himself inside the Ecuadorian embassy). From the conversation Assange gets the impression that the Google exec is acting as an unofficial envoy of the US state department in hopes of convincing him to "play ball" by publishing more and more information which will advance the arab spring narrative. The rest of the book is his own personal investigation into the incestuous links between US foreign policy, social media corporations and the so-called "arab spring".

      • By cmrdporcupine 2025-12-1115:35

        I didn't even have to go read it to immediately know that it was Eric Schmidt who was the Google executive in question.

        He's a notorious fan of unbridled American imperial power and "realpolitik" and brought Kissinger in multiple times to Google for "fireside chat" sessions.

        Which always went over very... poorly... with the broader set of employees who used to get seriously annoyed at this. The reception was never good.

      • By robocat 2025-12-127:40

        Great summary article from Assange's POV about meeting Schmidt et al :

        https://www.newsweek.com/assange-google-not-what-it-seems-27...

      • By DANmode 2025-12-1114:40

        There are great articles by him on these topics, too, for those without book-level time to commit to the topic.

      • By r721 2025-12-1116:341 reply

        And after that he decided to become an ally of Russian government to help them spread conspiracy theories (about Seth Rich for example):

        >In the end, the most charitable interpretation of Assange’s “dissembling” as Mueller calls it, in the Seth Rich hoax is that he genuinely couldn’t rule out the possibility that Rich was his source. The Mueller report demolished that final moral refuge. Rich had been dead four days when Assange received the DNC files.

        https://archive.is/56RiI

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Seth_Rich#WikiLeaks_...

        • By snickerbockers 2025-12-123:11

          Well I'm sure bob mueller would know a thing or two about disinformation given how he participated in the worst hoax in recent US history.

          >As director Tennant has pointed out, secretary Powell presented evidence last week that Baghdad has failed to disarm its weapons of mass destruction, and willfully attempting to evade and deceive the international community. Our particular concern is that Saddam Hussein may supply terrorists with biological, chemical, or radiological material

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTDO-kuOGTQ

          Anyways I might care more about Seth Rich "conspiracy theories" if anybody had bothered to investigate what happened to him instead of chalking it up as a "robbery gone wrong" (in which nothing of value was stolen) and calling it a day. In about six more months it will have gone unsolved for an entire decade.

    • By YcYc10 2025-12-1114:14

      Same with OpenAI. There's no point in listening to any ethical mission statements coming from any big tech company - it's all corporate BS.

    • By d--b 2025-12-1113:20

      Well the "dumbfucks" comment date back a while. Zuck's always been an asshole.

    • By dogleash 2025-12-1117:00

      >I'm wondering if at some level we always knew it would end up like this.

      Everyone always knew. The criticisms get lumped in with with the unreasonable nay-sayers because it makes them easier to dismiss.

      The honest people I know working for obvious evil will acknowledge it and say they're just doing it for a paycheck. But this gives most people cognitive dissonance and they'll find better rationalization. See also: every cope post on hacker news by someone defending a company they're pretending not to work for.

    • By griffel 2025-12-1113:463 reply

      [flagged]

      • By embedding-shape 2025-12-1113:541 reply

        Rather than trying to find things we disagree on, why don't we try to find things we agree on?

        Do you think people should be allowed to control their own body? Why/why not?

        • By griffel 2025-12-1114:311 reply

          [flagged]

          • By embedding-shape 2025-12-1114:481 reply

            I don't think anyone is "mincing up unborn babies". I think you might misunderstand how abortions work in practice, but anyways.

            > If you want control over your body, exercise that control to not get pregnant in the first place.

            So you are of the opinion that if someone "screwed up" something, essentially made a mistake, they should have no options to correct that mistake?

            What about if someone else made them pregnant without their consent? Would bodily autonomy become more important in your mind then, or same "don't get pregnant in the first place" apply, even if it's outside of their control?

            • By griffel 2025-12-1116:521 reply

              [flagged]

              • By embedding-shape 2025-12-1117:121 reply

                > Start with the infamous account from the practitioner who boasted of her novel technique that begins with cutting the baby's vocal cords to muffle its screams

                You mean the woman who lost their medical license after clearly not understanding how abortions work?

                > It also says that Torres has made “public statements related to the practice of medicine which violate the high standards of honesty, diligence, prudence, and ethical integrity demanded from physicians licensed to practice in Alabama.” - https://cbn.com/news/us/abortionist-who-gloated-about-cuttin...

                > I think we would be better off if people experienced the consequences of their actions

                I think so too, but not everything is under your control, like pregnancy. And sometimes you try to do everything you can in terms of preventing pregnancy, yet it happens anyways, is it really compassionate to punish people who made mistakes? As a Christian (maybe you're atheist), I just cannot comprehend the lack of compassion for people and forcing them to have a unintentional pregnancy.

                • By griffel 2025-12-1118:091 reply

                  [flagged]

                  • By embedding-shape 2025-12-1123:011 reply

                    > Nobody is forcing anyone to have an unintentional pregnancy. What an unusual and manipulative way to frame the consequences of one's actions.

                    I'm not sure where you live, but most places on earth have a really shit situation wherever humans live, which is called involuntary sexual intercourse, if you haven't heard about it before, I guess consider yourself lucky. For the rest of the people who do experience that though, I feel a lot of compassion, and whatever they need and want to do to heal from that sort of trauma, should be OK, as long as they're not hurting other humans.

                    > Humanity was just fine for millennia

                    You also don't seem to grasp the long history of abortion, probably longer than even written history which is just 5000 years.

                    > By making abortions accessible, you make abortions necessary

                    Accessible or not, abortions are sometimes necessary, and sometimes the most compassionate route. If you were Christian, you might have understood, so I hope whatever degeneracy your chosen religion seems to have forced upon you, eventually lets up so you too can start to see compassion against your fellow human beings.

                    • By griffel 2025-12-1123:531 reply

                      [flagged]

                      • By embedding-shape 2025-12-1212:361 reply

                        I hope one day you get rescued from all these deviant thoughts that seem stuck in your head, and you too find Christ in you so you can feel compassion for the other humans on the wonderful planet God created for us. Until then I'll pray for you.

                        • By griffel 2025-12-131:20

                          Wait... You're Christian!? And you support this?

                          Oh dear. Your jewish overlords must be so proud of your sociopathic evangelism of whoredom and baby murder.

      • By jfindper 2025-12-1114:011 reply

        >grooming children into "queer" lifestyles

        This isn't how being queer works!

        • By Empact 2025-12-1114:127 reply

          [flagged]

          • By input_sh 2025-12-1114:32

            Or, and this is gonna sound crazy, I know, it's not because it used to be novel and cool but because young people feel less safe to come out now that the trans panic has done its thing and the current administration has spent an inconceivable amount of money, time and attention painting this marginalised community in a bad light at every perceivable opportunity to do so?

          • By ceejayoz 2025-12-1114:271 reply

            Now do left handedness.

            https://www.datawrapper.de/blog/history-of-left-handedness

            Did it become trendy? Or did we just stop beating it out of people?

          • By II2II 2025-12-1114:40

            If another kid tells you that they're going to beat the daylights out of you to gain the acceptance of their peers, other kids get the message pretty fast and that message is to conform and to isolate the kid that is going to be the subject of the beating. It has nothing to do with adopting what's cool and rejecting what's cringe, unless you consider the current shift against human rights to be cool and supporting human rights to be cringe.

          • By exasperaited 2025-12-1114:391 reply

            Trends and beliefs based on culture, real or otherwise, are one thing.

            The allegation is grooming: that one group of people is actively persuading another.

            • By hackinthebochs 2025-12-1114:501 reply

              [flagged]

              • By exasperaited 2025-12-1116:372 reply

                OK, this means that MAGA is grooming people to be racist?

                If you're going to broaden the definition of grooming so absurdly to include normal things in culture you just don't like then it seems like you should allow people to conclude your intent is to diminish the seriousness of things that actually are grooming.

                • By dragonwriter 2025-12-1117:25

                  > OK, this means that MAGA is grooming people to be racist?

                  Irrespective of the upthread discussion, MAGA is absolutely both being racist and quite actively grooming people, particularly children, to be racist. That's fairly overt.

                • By hackinthebochs 2025-12-1116:541 reply

                  [flagged]

                  • By exasperaited 2025-12-1117:211 reply

                    You are broadening this out to the point that is absurd and would excuse cracking down on almost any liberalisation, in a way that is kind of prurient.

                    Honestly it's rather creepy and I hope you one day consider what you are saying.

                    • By hackinthebochs 2025-12-1117:331 reply

                      [flagged]

                      • By exasperaited 2025-12-1121:521 reply

                        Grooming of a person in a non-abuse setting involves deliberately changing the environment around an individual who does not yet feel they could be someone's successor or confidently exhibit the qualities or experience needed.

                        Again: it is an active, targeted process aimed at someone who does not necessarily know they are being changed.

                        Grooming has never been as broad a concept as you are talking about such that it just means changes in the moral or social landscape that some find undesirable.

                        It has always meant a form of targeted attention (even in the literal sense of care and attention to a specific animal). Social liberalisation you do not care for is not grooming.

                        I won't keep you any longer.

                        • By hackinthebochs 2025-12-1123:321 reply

                          Yes, an active targeted process. No, it doesn't have to be aimed at "someone". It can be aimed at creating an environment conducive to one's interested in some class of people.

                          Yes, intentionally targeting kids with an ideology is grooming. It is preparing them to be amenable to your ideology to increase acceptance of it in the broader culture. At least that's the most innocuous reading of it.

                          • By ceejayoz 2025-12-1215:323 reply

                            > Yes, intentionally targeting kids with an ideology is grooming.

                            Boy Scouts? Religious youth camps? Are we banning these, too?

                            • By hackinthebochs 2025-12-1218:311 reply

                              Not saying they should be banned. Not all grooming is bad actually. But that is the purpose of ideological organizations to a large degree.

                              • By ceejayoz 2025-12-1220:431 reply

                                > Not saying they should be banned. Not all grooming is bad actually.

                                Then you're just making pointless noise.

                                • By hackinthebochs 2025-12-1222:34

                                  The point is that the word grooming doesn't say enough to determine whether something is harmful. You just have to do the work to defend your claim to harm. But the grooming dynamic will always be inherently suspect when it involves other people's kids.

                            • By kappaking 2025-12-1215:34

                              Woah now, you can’t talk negatively on beloved pedophile infested organizations.

          • By tallanvor 2025-12-1114:341 reply

            I can say that the data you're sharing suggests it's just as likely that the drop in numbers that your site claims started sometime between 2023 and 2024 are due to people becoming more afraid to identify as such due to Republican attempts to restrict LGBT rights and make life miserable for anyone who doesn't identify as straight

            • By lostmsu 2025-12-1115:531 reply

              Republicans in 2023?

              • By pseudalopex 2025-12-1121:26

                The Republican party existed since 1854. Was your point the president in 2023 was not a Republican? Most anti trans measures were state legislation.

          • By jfindper 2025-12-1114:291 reply

            >Doesn’t the very rise and fall of trans youth identification contradict your claim?

            It does not, no. You cannot be "groomed" into being attracted to a different sex.

            • By Empact 2025-12-128:38

              This is about trans identification, so not to do with attraction to a particular sex.

          • By floooop 2025-12-1210:471 reply

            [flagged]

      • By exasperaited 2025-12-1113:504 reply

        > grooming children into "queer" lifestyles

        … is a deliberate bad faith characterisation.

        Isn't bad faith argument immoral?

        • By hackinthebochs 2025-12-1116:561 reply

          [flagged]

          • By exasperaited 2025-12-1122:001 reply

            I would not, as a broad matter of policy, talk about "good faith" in any sentence involving a claim made by Matt Walsh, who is both a bad faith actor and a fucking liar.

            • By hackinthebochs 2025-12-1123:26

              Unless you think he fabricated the pictures, I'm not sure what relevance the trustworthiness of the messenger has in this instance.

        • By PunchyHamster 2025-12-1114:112 reply

          [flagged]

          • By ceejayoz 2025-12-1120:06

            Do atheist parents get to ban other peoples’ youth church activities for the same reason?

          • By Forgeties79 2025-12-1114:251 reply

            Being exposed to the reality that gay people exist?

        • By hackinthebochs 2025-12-1114:36

          [flagged]

        • By griffel 2025-12-1114:192 reply

          [flagged]

          • By tallanvor 2025-12-1114:401 reply

            You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts. And there's no reputable research to back up your claims. Your religious beliefs are not enough to make something true.

          • By blitz_skull 2025-12-1114:33

            [flagged]

    • By cluckindan 2025-12-1113:212 reply

      As a state tends toward either communism or capitalism, it starts dictating the economy more and more, until it hits the ceiling and becomes a totally dictated war economy, where a fundamentally fascist ideology replaces previous values. At that point, war is inevitable, because a war economy requires active warfare, and war provides ample opportunies for pilfering at multiple levels, both home and abroad.

      Fascism is not to blame, it is a means to an end for the economy at large. Ultimately, the issue is uneven distribution of wealth and power.

      • By embedding-shape 2025-12-1113:561 reply

        You're saying this like it's some absolute truth, that any state naturally gravitates towards either communism or capitalism, but based on the amount of states in the world that haven't automatically turned into either communistic or capitalistic hell-holes, it seems like this only happens to a small fraction of the states in the world.

      • By kuerbel 2025-12-1113:481 reply

        You are downvoted, but correct. Fascism is one possible failure mode of capitalism. It is capitalism stripped of brakes, guardrails, and ethics. A kind of panic-driven hyper-authoritarian capitalism that pretends unity can solve material contradictions.

        • By exasperaited 2025-12-1113:583 reply

          > Fascism is one possible failure mode of capitalism. It is capitalism stripped of brakes, guardrails, and ethics.

          This is not a useful definition of fascism, if that is what you mean. Fascism can exist entirely independently of capitalism, and has done.

          Is it possible for fascism to thrive in a regulation-free capitalist world? Apparently yes. But they are not necessarily coupled.

          It's a common misperception that fascism necessarily involves a merger of state and corporate power. Rather in a fascist regime, companies have no more choice in whether they further the state's aims and align with its goals than individual citizens have; they just have more devastating impacts.

          As to whether Meta is aligning with the administration's goals, I don't know whether it is happening, consciously or unconsciously, in this case, but we know for certain there has been deliberate and conscious alignment elsewhere, because Zuckerberg made a big deal out of it.

          • By cycomanic 2025-12-1118:002 reply

            > > Fascism is one possible failure mode of capitalism. It is capitalism stripped of brakes, guardrails, and ethics.

            > This is not a useful definition of fascism, if that is what you mean. Fascism can exist entirely independently of capitalism, and has done.

            I think you should look up the definition and history of fascism. You're correct about totalitarism, but fascism is by definition capitalist.

            • By dragonwriter 2025-12-1118:081 reply

              Fascism is a reaction against capitalism-the-system in much the same way (but a different direction) than communism (it is "capitalist" in that, like most systems, including pre-capitalist ones, and including most claiming to be "Communist", it has a narrow self-perpetuating class controlling society by means including control of the means of production, but it does not feature the particular structure and features that defines capitalism as a system rather than a feature of other systems; fascist corporatism looks a lot, in practice, like the state capitalism that vanguardist "Communist" regimes tend to get stuck in.)

              • By cycomanic 2025-12-1119:141 reply

                > but it does not feature the particular structure and features that defines capitalism as a system rather than a feature of other systems;

                What do you mean? The defining feature of capitalism is private/corporate ownership of the means of production which is a core part of fascism as well.

                • By dragonwriter 2025-12-1119:191 reply

                  No, the defining feature of capitalism-as-a-system (as opposed to capitalism-as-a-feature of systems including those which predate capitalism-as-system) is the set and preeminence of property rights, which are very different under fascism, because fascist corporatism subordinates all interests (not least of all property interest) to central authority.

                  Fascist corporatism is as radically opposed to capitalism as Leninist “democratic centralism” is (and, arguably, despite the opposing rhetorical stance, in very much the same substantive direction in practice.)

                  • By cycomanic 2025-12-124:19

                    So where are your definition of capitalism and fascism from? Because seems to me you just made up your own definitions. To me your definition of fascism resembles much more a difinition of general authoritarianism or totalitarianism.

            • By exasperaited 2025-12-1123:101 reply

              > but fascism is by definition capitalist.

              I think it is you who should look up the definition and history of fascism.

              Fascism usually exists in a capitalist context — but "by definition"? No.

              • By panarchy 2025-12-1123:211 reply

                Maybe we should take the definition from the mouth of an expert on fascism, Mussolini, "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."

                • By exasperaited 2025-12-121:32

                  Maybe you should do some research on that quote.

                  Because there is literally no evidence he ever said it. It's a widespread but false attribution, as I outlined in another comment.

                  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46239664

                  This attribution leads to a truly fundamentally broken reduction of what Mussolini actually thought fascism was (though his own definition of it was largely pseudointellectual drivel).

                  But even then, "corporatism" doesn't mean "capitalism" at all.

          • By eunoia 2025-12-1114:33

            Companies are not helpless dames in a fascist takeover. History has proven that the people on top of the capitalist hierarchy generally actively welcome fascist elements in government.

            It’s a lot easier to juice the profits of your megacorp when the power of government is vested in a single, friendly individual. Of course ten seconds of thinking exposes the fragility of such a system (they may turn on you, they may be replaced, they may destroy the entire country, etc). But Capitalism itself encourages short term, winner-takes-all all thinking. If you don’t cozy up to the wanna be autocrat and help them attain more power, you will be outcompeted by someone who does.

            The path of a greedy corporate executive is practically pre-ordained in such a situation. The only question is whether the wanna be autocrat succeeds to become the real deal.

          • By throwaway-11-1 2025-12-1118:311 reply

            are you saying IBM was FORCED to help the reich? like c'mon, what did Mussolini say about Corporatism again?

            • By exasperaited 2025-12-121:04

              OK... drum roll please!

              I suppose you mean this famous quote:

              "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power"

              I have news: this is bullshit.

              This quote is literally falsely attributed to Mussolini. There is no evidence whatsoever that he said it. It's also somewhat at odds with things he did say (though most of that was pseudointellectual gibberish) and the way he ruled.

              https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Benito_Mussolini

              It's simply wrong. It is one of the great falsely-attributed quotations that will not die.

              https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/02/07/fake-quote-...

              It's central to the 21st century misunderstanding of Fascism and it is the convenient misattribution that will not die. (Also what I was referring to up thread)

              And what "corporatism" means, in a Fascist context, is not what western readers think it might mean. It is a term talking about collective organisation, not capitalism.

              It's part of why the word "fascist" is so completely blunted to the point of uselessness in US debate.

    • By newsclues 2025-12-1114:34

      It’s funny that some people think “positive social impact” should (only) reflect their views and morals.

  • By andsoitis 2025-12-1113:298 reply

    Repro Uncensored, an NGO tracking digital censorship against movements focused on gender, health and justice, said that it had tracked 210 incidents of account removals and severe restrictions affecting these groups this year, compared with 81 last year.

    Meta denied an escalating trend of censorship. “Every organisation and individual on our platforms is subject to the same set of rules, and any claims of enforcement based on group affiliation or advocacy are baseless,” it said in a statement, adding that its policies on abortion-related content had not changed.

    Has The Guardian confirmed the facts either way? Or are they just reporting what people say without digging deeper?

    I think reporting ought to try to get to some level of truth through rigor.

    • By makeitdouble 2025-12-1113:424 reply

      Wouldn't the same rule applying to everyone be consistent with the censorship, if every org is subject to the same strict censorship on reproductive themes and sexual orientation ?

      "we're consistent" doesn't mean "we're fair"

      • By johnnyanmac 2025-12-1121:12

        >“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”

        ― Anatole France

      • By rurp 2025-12-1117:59

        Reminds me of the anti gay marriage folks who claim they aren't discriminating because any man can marry any woman of their choice and vice versa.

      • By y-curious 2025-12-1113:451 reply

        Good point, it’s I ind of like how NSO, the spyware company, “complies with all applicable laws” of the countries they sell their spyware to.

        • By embedding-shape 2025-12-1113:53

          NSO also claimed that their Pegasus software couldn't target US or Israeli phone numbers, but we now know that isn't true, so excuse me if it's hard to take their word for anything they say publicly. Not to mention that time they claimed they weren't involved in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, and then later we found Pegasus on the phones of his fiancée, wife, and other relatives.

          Same goes for Meta, at one point it becomes blatantly obvious that you cannot trust any of their statements, because they turn out again and again to not be true.

      • By andsoitis 2025-12-1113:434 reply

        Is that in fact the case here?

        Are all accounts linked to abortion or queer content now gone from Facebook? I don’t believe that’s the case, right?

        • By makeitdouble 2025-12-1114:17

          _all_ accounts are surely not gone, that's so much moderating effort it never happened for any specific rule.

          Do all the reported accounts and content get nuked ? Potentially yes ?

        • By DANmode 2025-12-1114:351 reply

          That’s not what the person you’re replying to said.

          • By andsoitis 2025-12-1114:38

            Then help me understand what they mean.

        • By Forgeties79 2025-12-1114:16

          > Are all accounts linked to abortion or queer content now gone from Facebook?

          Is that what the guardian claimed?

        • By ImPostingOnHN 2025-12-1114:121 reply

          The question would be, are any such accounts limited, blocked, or removed? It seems the answer there is "yes".

          That would mean Facebook's response is either blatantly false, or deceptively using weasel wording.

    • By exasperaited 2025-12-1113:47

      They have been reporting on this trend for a considerable time. Confirmation bias is obviously a risk but I don't see any particular reason to doubt their reporting because they are reporting on organisations who do long-term tracking and saying so. Reporting what concerned and informed people say is still one of the jobs of journalism after all.

      They do some data-oriented investigations with partners but their budget is very finite as an organisation.

    • By malfist 2025-12-1113:443 reply

      This is not a new behavior for Facebook. Back when I was on Facebook (left in 2016) the LGBT groups I was part of kept constantly getting banned or suspended, but they never once acted on a report I sent them from people posting blatantly racists content or inciting violence.

      Someone could post that all black people are stupid and were better off enslaved and Facebook would respond to a report saying it doesn't violate any policies, but someone posting a shirtless photo of themselves to an lgbt group gets it shutdown for a week.

      • By bgbntty2 2025-12-1114:181 reply

        Facebook has never had a consistent policy with what's allowed and what isn't. They haven't banned several obvious scams I've reported, but have banned a post that contains a picture of dog medicine (a blister of pills). The vague reason given was that it (could've been?) related to recreational drugs or something like this.

        • By LexiMax 2025-12-1117:411 reply

          Nearly all of the LGBT groups that I am aware of are primarily on Discord and other, similar services for this very reason. All of the other socials exist only as on ramps to the real community. The weirdos can shout into the void all they like, but nobody's listening to or engaging with them.

          This is also why I keep saying that the Discord model is the future of social media, not Facebook or Twitter. Turns out that when you can allow users to exert meaningful control over their social spaces, instead of relying on the judgment of some of the most sociopathic, self-interested and immoral people in tech, you can create actual communities.

          • By lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2025-12-1119:191 reply

            > the Discord model is the future of social media

            Curious what it is about Discord you think is different enough from other social media to warrant this claim. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other, just curious.

            • By LexiMax 2025-12-1122:22

              Discord lacks the "capriciously moderated town square" that most other social media has, and this is a feature, not a bug.

              Instead, it harkens back to the older era of web forums and IRC channels where communities were siloed and moderated by actual humans using moderation tools, permission abstractions, and even bot API's that are actually fit for purpose.

              The key advantage that Discord has over the pre-social-media status quo is that Discord gives the ability for users to moderate their social spaces without the overhead of having to run their own forum software or intuit the arcane NickServ/ChanServ deep majick. The friction for creating a new social space is quite low, and joining one of those spaces is as simple as obtaining an invite - which can either be publicly posted or only handed out to specific users on a case by case basis.

              Sites like Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter are antithetical to this - they want you to throw you in the deep end and get hooked by engagement-bait. Reddit was probably the closest prior art, but Reddit still gamified engagement using voting, kept the walls between subreddits very thin, and refused to give moderators adequate tools to properly moderate their subreddits. As time has gone on, further changes to Reddit's structure and userbase have turned moderators from being community curators to doing free janitorial work for a tech company.

      • By Ancapistani 2025-12-1121:21

        FWIW, this seems to be consistent across political lines.

        I've been part of several gun rights groups on Facebook, both for political advocacy and plan information sharing, that have been banned without warning. Meanwhile there are groups where nothing is ever posted that isn't for sale - I haven't seen one of those taken down for several years now, and many of them are scoped to an entire state and have tens of thousands of users.

      • By op7 2025-12-1115:192 reply

        [flagged]

        • By andsoitis 2025-12-1115:22

          > LGBT is sexually explicit topic.

          No it is not. When I say “my husband and I”, I am asserting a fact and who I am as a gay guy and I’m not stating anything sexual.

          > being US companies retain a puritanical attitude

          I do not know that to be true. The US is an also a playground of very explicit pornographic online services. But everything has its place.

          There is a real practical problem that is not easily solvable, and that is how to draw a reasonable line at scale across different cultures and legal frameworks. Anyone saying it is easy or clear is not a serious thinker.

    • By classified 2025-12-127:31

      So you just take Meta at their word? How naive can you be?

    • By SecretDreams 2025-12-1114:281 reply

      > I think reporting ought to try to get to some level of truth through rigor.

      Information literally moves faster on socials than it does from need sources and those things come with far less "truth through rigor".

      I agree news sources should do leg work.. but in a world where nobody cares about the facts when spreading a story, is there still a point?

      • By andsoitis 2025-12-1114:361 reply

        > but in a world where nobody cares about the facts when spreading a story, is there still a point?

        I might be an illogical optimist, but I undoubtedly believe that’s the job of journalists and newspaper editors in such a world. To FIGHT false narratives and misinformation.

        • By SecretDreams 2025-12-1115:011 reply

          I'm an optimist, myself. But, I think the system can't be fixed until the ability for individuals/influencers to spread false narratives is heavily modified. The news literally cannot keep pace with the fake news. The latter takes a fraction of the time to generate and spreads using more guerilla like techniques.. and nobody is punished at all for enabling it.

          We're asking credible news sources to fit a gun fit with sticks.

          • By SecretDreams 2025-12-131:24

            Noting I spelled fight incorrectly.. twice lol.

    • By Forgeties79 2025-12-1114:071 reply

      > Has The Guardian confirmed the facts either way? Or are they just reporting what people say without digging deeper?

      This reads like what you’re accusing them of doing. The way you’re asking the questions communicates skepticism in favor of facebook’s official statement. Facebook’s track record on policing content is not exactly one that inspires confidence in their narrative.

      • By andsoitis 2025-12-1114:322 reply

        The Guardian has a duty and responsibility to not create false narratives or misinformation.

        I am entitled to a dose of healthy skepticism.

        If I believed that Meta is suspending accounts for the mere fact that they link to abortion information or non-pornographic queer content, rather some other policy reason, then I WOULD dig deeper because apparently The Gaurdian can’t be bothered to.

        However, I don’t believe that to be the case by the mere fact that there are millions of accounts active that DO link to queer content or abortion information.

        Heck, Planned Parenthood has an active Facebook account: https://www.facebook.com/plannedparenthood/

        • By ottah 2025-12-1114:591 reply

          I would assume some good faith on their part. Verification would be valuable, but so would timely release of information. If the reports are true, an active harm to those organizations are being done, and it would be valuable for the public to know sooner than later. If you attempt to verify the information, but it's taking more time and resources than you have to do the job quickly, releasing the information with attribution to a reputable source is the least harmful option.

          • By andsoitis 2025-12-1115:371 reply

            > but so would timely release of information. If the reports are true, an active harm to those organizations are being done, and it would be valuable for the public to know sooner than later.

            I do not believe that that is The Guardian’s goal with this reporting. If it were, wouldn’t it make more sense to list the organizations (provide actionable information), rather than spending time telling a story?

            I also have a hard time seeing the harm or the size thereof without knowing more context about any of the organizations, what they do, and how much they rely or depend on Facebook to be effective.

            If I were an organization that had my Facebook account suspended unfairly or unjustly, I would simply find a different way to stay in touch with others. Meta does not owe me anything

        • By crote 2025-12-1114:561 reply

          Nobody is claiming that Facebook is shutting down all accounts posting abortion info and queer content. The fact that some high-profile accounts are still online doesn't in any way invalidate the possibility that it is shutting down smaller accounts at an increased rate.

          The Guardian article interviews several people whose accounts have been shut down. Are you proposing that all those people are lying, or is there perhaps the possibility of Facebook not telling the whole truth? Should you not be skeptical of Facebook's "we didn't do anything" claim as well?

          • By andsoitis 2025-12-1115:092 reply

            What matters is the reason for them being shuttered.

            I totally believe that those accounts have been shut down (without checking even one), but I do not buy that it is for the mere fact that they link to abortion info or queer content which is the framing in the article and a lot of the assumption in this discussion thread, because the counter evidence is clear and voluminous.

            I get that people are passionate about topics that are important to them, but I will also say that one ought to keep a level head, even if only for one’s one emotional resilience.

            I also accept that people need to vent (against corporations, rich people, government, etc.) and I try to give people the space to do so even when I think they’re wrong. At the same time, I think what is more helpful is to lean in with curiosity and not to assume you’re right.

            • By r721 2025-12-1116:201 reply

              Imagine you are a media outlet. How exactly would you verify the claim if everything you have is a link to suspended account and testimony of account owner (and Meta doesn't want to comment on details)?

              • By LexiMax 2025-12-120:00

                To steelman the opposing view, sources from inside the company might hold a little more water.

                But that's just a steelman. If I were to guess as to what is actually going on, I would suspect that it's due some sort of automated reporting system that has been successfully gamified in the case of smaller content creators, and there's simply no human oversight of these features.

                That said, IMHO trying to tease out if Meta is banning these accounts out of maliciousness or depraved indifference is a distinction without a difference. At the end of the day, the buck still stops with Meta.

            • By Forgeties79 2025-12-1122:25

              >What matters is the reason for them being shuttered.

              So they should explain the situation rather than dropping a generic “our policies are great and this is fine.” We’ve seen them be inconsistent in their enforcement time and time again and with Zuckerberg openly kissing the Trump admin’s ring as he once again shifts course with the political winds, some of us (rightfully) think it is likely Facebook, not The Guardian, that is wrong here. Yes we need more clarification from both parties but my money is on TG.

              Your skepticism is warranted but it is misdirected IMO.

    • By joemazerino 2025-12-1113:532 reply

      [flagged]

      • By lingrush4 2025-12-1114:08

        Yes, I do. Though in fairness, they were the ones pushing for censorship.

      • By aa_is_op 2025-12-1114:01

        [flagged]

    • By reaperducer 2025-12-1116:25

      Has The Guardian confirmed the facts either way? Or are they just reporting what people say without digging deeper?

      I think reporting ought to try to get to some level of truth through rigor.

      I think I'm getting bored with all the deflection bots and puppets on HN saying, "Don't discuss the issue in the OP's article! Look over here, instead!"

  • By spicyusername 2025-12-1112:2219 reply

    I always wonder, when it's so clear some corporate decision will cause social harm, what the story the perpetrators tell themselves is to avoid feeling guilt or responsibility.

    Nobody believes themselves to be the bad guy, but many people frequently make decisions that cause harm.

    • By afavour 2025-12-1112:541 reply

      It’s all about separation.

      One person makes a “decision making framework” but doesn’t make any individual decision themselves.

      Then another person makes the individual decision, but based on the decision making framework, so they feel no personal responsibility for the choice.

      • By baq 2025-12-1113:33

        This is also, not incidentally, how police and military work, with dire consequences if decision makers are not aligned with non-enforcement non-military citizen ethics.

    • By perihelions 2025-12-1112:563 reply

      Pretty sure many of Meta's tech workers are furious about these actions, as they were in the previous story where 404media published a number of employee comments:

      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42651178 ("[flagged] Total Chaos at Meta: Employees Protest Zuckerberg's Anti LGBTQ Changes (404media.co)")

      https://www.404media.co/its-total-chaos-internally-at-meta-r... ( https://archive.is/R1c7S )

      • By timcobb 2025-12-1113:28

        Pretty sure they'll keep collective paychecks and watching Netflix

      • By pavel_lishin 2025-12-1112:593 reply

        And what did they end up doing about it?

        • By seethedeaduu 2025-12-1113:021 reply

          The wages are too big. If they had ethics would they work there at all?

          • By ericmay 2025-12-1113:224 reply

            It’s even easier to delete your WhatsApp, Instagram, and Facebook accounts. Yet so many are happy to criticize and keep ingesting ads.

            • By veeti 2025-12-1114:101 reply

              WhatsApp is a fact of life in locales like Europe, India and Indonesia. There is literally no avoiding it if you want to have a job or function in society.

              • By ericmay 2025-12-1114:59

                Ok sure, Americans can delete them then, no?

                I can attest that you don't need them to have a job or function in society.

            • By deaux 2025-12-1113:322 reply

              Nope, the things you named aren't easier. Out of the two, it's much easier to not work at Meta than do any of those things.

              • By baggachipz 2025-12-1114:111 reply

                What's so hard about not using Meta products? I manage to not use them every single day. There are dozens of us!

                • By danaris 2025-12-1119:48

                  That's not what ericmay said.

                  I don't use Meta products, and haven't for many years. But I still have a Facebook account, because a) deleting it would be a fairly rigorous process, and b) as long as I maintain the account, I have some control over the information about me that Meta maintains; if I deleted the account, they would maintain a "shadow profile" for me that I had no control over, and (for instance) any photos tagged as containing me, I would not be able to go in and untag.

              • By ericmay 2025-12-1113:53

                Is that what Meta’s ads tell you?

            • By mschuster91 2025-12-1114:101 reply

              > It’s even easier to delete your WhatsApp, Instagram, and Facebook accounts.

              Unfortunately, it's not, at least for Whatsapp.

              That's a part of the issue - as there is no open access federation requirement, there are messenger islands. Whatsapp for the non-tech folks, Telegram for those who either are wary of Meta, want gambling, or a service decidedly not affiliated with the American judicial sphere, Signal and Threema for the utter nerds/journalists/activists, iMessage for the Apple crowd, or the now-defunct rich bro network of Blackberry. SMS, MMS or its replacement RCS that the carriers are trying (and failing) to push, I don't even count these given how faded to irrelevance they all are. Oh, and then there are (particularly in the Asian market) all the country specific "everything in one"-apps that Musk tried and failed to convert X to.

              And particularly among the non-tech folks, no way to get them to use anything but Whatsapp. Network effects are a thing, hence the EU's push to break up the walled gardens at least a tiny tiny bit, but it will take years until it's implemented.

              • By ericmay 2025-12-1114:59

                Ok sure, delete Instagram and Facebook then. That seems easier to start, no?

                But you're assuming these messaging apps are something we need and have to have and then solving backward from there.

                While I certainly recognize that a society may have made the mistake of going all-in on a proprietary app in order to participate in society (whoops!), I can tell you for a fact that it's not required for any given society to function because I don't have any of these apps and just use SMS and e-mail and I am able to work, coordinate events with friends, make dinner reservations, and send funny videos. I can also vouch for the United States, specifically that such apps aren't required.

                So we can clearly separate out that we don't need these apps to function as a society - we can go back to the question of morality. In the US if you are "against" Meta or Mark Zuckerberg or whatever, you can just delete the apps because you don't need them.

            • By seethedeaduu 2025-12-1119:17

              It doesn't let me delete it. Trust me, I tried.

        • By gonzo41 2025-12-1113:21

          Nothing, the answer is nothing. The harm of Meta continues.

        • By veeti 2025-12-1114:07

          Rename the master branch and add a BLM banner to the React docs

      • By emsign 2025-12-1113:25

        So they're like Marshall Ney then.

    • By duskdozer 2025-12-1112:512 reply

      Your assumption is that they need a story. They just don't feel the guilt or responsibility in the first place.

      • By energy123 2025-12-1113:231 reply

        The world has serial killers. Some people just neurologically can't feel guilt, and their entire life has been a training ground in how to appear as if they don't have this characteristic.

        • By deaux 2025-12-1113:34

          Exactly, like the Meta CEO and likely most of his exec circle, as is well known.

      • By ProllyInfamous 2025-12-1114:051 reply

        [flagged]

        • By mikkupikku 2025-12-1114:371 reply

          I share your distaste of lawyers, but please consider this: How do you feel about prison doctors who provide medical services to child murderers? Does everybody deserve medical care, as your lawyer friend thinks everybody deserves legal representation? Should the prison doctor feel any guilt for helping such horrible people?

          • By ProllyInfamous 2025-12-1114:431 reply

            You've specifically mentioned the topic I intentionally avoided discussing, because of the sensitive nature, but:

            My genuine hope would be the other prisoners would be more successful in avoiding the need for any professional services rendered [read this as a survivor, which I am].

            You cannot cure these abusers here on Earth — you have to send them somewhere else.

            • By mikkupikku 2025-12-1116:201 reply

              Fair enough, I appreciate your consistency.

              • By ProllyInfamous 2025-12-1119:51

                To bring it back to lawyer representation of evil corporations:

                Yes, I do believe Luigi to be the Patron Saint of Denials...

                This is the future we've created for all persons, corporate and not.

                #FAFO #FreeLuigi

    • By s1mplicissimus 2025-12-1112:33

      It's called "aligning with company culture" or "not being difficult" among others

    • By coldtea 2025-12-1113:31

      Aside from prizing their salary more than the guilt, if it was "so clear" it wouldn't be a controversial issue. For some in Meta they could very well think that the opposite caused social harm, either in absolute terms ("abortion is a sin/murder") or in relative terms ("has its uses, but we go too far and make it too easy"). Why the assumption those working in tech would be liberal? Thiel isn't.

    • By MadcapJake 2025-12-1113:26

      The Corporate religion demands unwavering profit orientation. "Ethics" is just barely maintained right above the limits of market research. All for the betterment of man, amirite?

    • By CyberMacGyver 2025-12-1112:36

      After reading ‘Careless People’ it was clear that they don’t have any moral compass.

      Remember how Mark was caught on hot mic saying ‘I wasn’t sure what number you wanted, Mr. President’ after lying about it on camera[0]

      [0]https://www.businesstoday.in/world/us/story/i-wasnt-sure-wha...

    • By dfxm12 2025-12-1115:13

      These people only think in terms of money. Their bank accounts will tell them if it was the right decision or not.

      Someone like Zuck actively isolates themselves: from buying huge tracts of land to literally isolate themselves, building underground shelters, hiring security to keep riff-raff away, etc. They have no concept of society. They just don't see themselves living in the same world as we do.

    • By makeitdouble 2025-12-1114:26

      To complete sister comments: people who go work for Meta already have their priorities in place or won't have these kind of conundrums.

      A few elite people are poached, some are acquihired, but most applied to get the job. I believe if you can make it to Meta you can make it to equivalent mega companies, it's a choice.

    • By rsynnott 2025-12-1113:20

      I mean, you've got to imagine that Facebook tends to drive people who would be worried about such things away; if you had any sense of responsibility and could get another job, why would you stay? It's not like this is the first problem Facebook has had...

    • By kouteiheika 2025-12-1112:292 reply

      There's no story. You need to remember - big corporations are not your friend. They're your enemy. They don't care about you. They don't care about doing good. They care about money. They care about control. They care about their stock price. That's it.

      You might ask - but what about the people who work at those corporations? And that's also pretty simply explained by this classic quote: it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

      • By rtp4me 2025-12-1112:4710 reply

        They are not your enemy either. They are… businesses. Whose purpose is to survive and thrive. Just because you don’t like them or what they do doesn’t make them your enemy. And, lots of very talented and smart people work there every day for their own personal reasons. No need to bash or show hatred to them.

        • By duskdozer 2025-12-1113:021 reply

          People who cause harm in the course of performing their role in a business should be criticized and opposed, actually.

        • By TheOtherHobbes 2025-12-1113:04

          Less of the "not liking" and more of an "are an existential threat to."

          This isn't high school. This is about real people having real experiences of fear, stress, violence, and horror facilitated by deliberate cultural engineering.

          If the very talented and smart people don't get that, that's a them problem.

        • By Meneth 2025-12-1112:531 reply

          "Just because you don’t like them or what they do doesn’t make them your enemy."

          Yes it does. That is the only thing that makes enemies.

          • By rtp4me 2025-12-1113:022 reply

            What a sad, sad take. Do you even know what the word “enemy” means? Just because I don’t like my neighbor doesn’t make them my enemy. We are not going to war with each other, we just don’t like each other’s company. Just because I don’t like your comments on HN doesn’t mean I hate you. Good grief.

            Note: I do like my neighbor!

            • By drcongo 2025-12-1113:271 reply

              You've entered into a logical fallacy there - the parent was saying that not liking someone or what they do is a prerequisite for them becoming an enemy. They did NOT say that everyone you don't like is your enemy, which is the straw man you chose to respond to.

              • By n4r9 2025-12-1113:461 reply

                I disagree. If you take statement X to be "you don't like them" and Y to be "they're your enemy". Then OP said "Just because X is true, it doesn't mean Y is true". In other words, "X does not imply Y". Meneth said "yes it does". In other words, "X implies Y".

                • By drcongo 2025-12-1114:101 reply

                  All enemies are people you dislike and / or people who do things you don't like. This does not make the opposite true, not all people you dislike or who do things you don't like are your enemy. The statement "all cats are black" does not also mean "all black things are cats".

                  • By n4r9 2025-12-1115:47

                    I roughly agree with you on that (with the caveat that e.g. opposing army generals can be enemies but admire and respect each other). I disagree that Meneth was saying what you said.

            • By afavour 2025-12-1113:042 reply

              But if your neighbour actively and deliberately makes your life worse then they certainly could be your enemy.

              If I’m queer and Facebook is actively censoring queer content then that’s more significant to me than just being a difference of opinion. The company is actively suppressing my way of life.

              Maybe the word “enemy” is too much but if so I think describing the idea as “sad” is equally as so. Giving a corporation a pass on behaviour you consider abhorrent simply because it’s a company and not a person seems pretty sad to me.

              • By high_na_euv 2025-12-1113:342 reply

                >If I’m queer and Facebook is actively censoring queer content then that’s more significant to me than just being a difference of opinion. The company is actively suppressing my way of life.

                Why queer community will not find an alternative app?

                • By afavour 2025-12-1114:23

                  This is the incredibly profitable contradiction Facebook lives in.

                  They do everything they can to become the central place for online communication and profit enormously from that. But they reject any of the responsibility that ought to come along with that, the refrain being what you're saying here: "well, you can always just go somewhere else"

                  Except that when online communication is as deeply siloed as it is it's extremely difficult to set up an alternative. How will people even find out about it when their entire online lives are lived on Facebook? This capture is exactly what Meta wants. Remember internet.org?

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet.org

                  Picking and choosing which services people can use is Zuckerberg's explicit goal.

                • By ModernMech 2025-12-1113:371 reply

                  Why should they have to?

                  • By high_na_euv 2025-12-1113:411 reply

                    If they believe that current app is censoring them, then moving to queer friendly solution seems to solve this issue, right?

                    Like not every social media is good for everything

                    Top software engineering content is also not on facebook

                    • By ModernMech 2025-12-1113:462 reply

                      No, because then what happens when the place they move to starts censoring them as well? Then all the places start censoring them? You're basically arguing for "separate but equal", and we know how that works out. The correct move is to fight for your rights, not to assuage bigotry.

                      But answer the question, why should they have to?

                      • By rtp4me 2025-12-1114:121 reply

                        And you are arguing every business must support your agenda, and if not, they are your "enemy"? What an odd take. Again, you are free to use other means of social media to spread your message but no one is obligated to read or support it. And, that does not make them the enemy.

                        • By ModernMech 2025-12-1116:56

                          You're confused, I didn't actually make that argument.

                      • By high_na_euv 2025-12-1114:051 reply

                        Why would they be obligated to host/serve you?

                        Just like restaurant owner can kick you, they also can.

                        If you dont agree with it, then vote for social media being treated as infrastructure like roads

                        • By ModernMech 2025-12-1116:581 reply

                          They are not obligated, I'm not saying they're obligated. Although restaurant owners can't discriminate, we have laws against that.

                          What I'm asking you is: why should they have to find a new place?

                          • By high_na_euv 2025-12-128:591 reply

                            If they believe that current app is censoring them, then moving to queer friendly solution seems to solve this issue, right?

                            • By ModernMech 2025-12-1215:541 reply

                              You already said that. It does not answer the question. Moving to another app doesn't solve anything, because we still haven't answered the question of why they should have had to move in the first place! It's the same situation if they move to a new app, nothing has changed.

                              At this point we have gone in a circle, I must assume I won't get a genuine answer to the only thing I have asked despite trying to engage genuinely in conversation. Have a good day.

                              • By high_na_euv 2025-12-1518:091 reply

                                But I already answered it, twice!

                                If they believe that someone is harming them, then they should stay with them?

              • By rtp4me 2025-12-1113:161 reply

                And by your own logic, how does censoring content actively suppress your way of life? Did someone from Meta go to your place of residence and actively threaten to harm you? Sure, maybe you don’t like the censorship, but how does that make them your enemy? Have you openly declared war on them? If you don’t like their content, simply move along.

                • By ToucanLoucan 2025-12-1113:311 reply

                  > And by your own logic, how does censoring content actively suppress your way of life?

                  Because it erases our existence, which is what a substantial slice of straight society wants. Queer content and spaces are important for queer adults, because it gives us places to comfortably be ourselves without feeling subject to leering or judgement from bigots, and safety in numbers in case someone starts something. It gives us people to be among who we can talk to, form community with, and support one another. And for people just coming up, it's literally lifesaving. Numerous studies have shown that queer-leaning teens and kids are MUCH safer when they have access to safe places to explore who they are, even if they don't "turn out" that way, prevents awful, irreversible things. [1,2,3] Not to mention it can be lifesaving also when their parents are bigots themselves and they need a way out.

                  > Sure, maybe you don’t like the censorship, but how does that make them your enemy?

                  The bridge between "they suppress expressions of who I am" and "they participate in my extermination" has been proven to be quite short and easily traversed for queers many times, and for racial groups, and for religious groups too. [4]

                  By your definition they may not be my enemy today, but they may be in a short period of time.

                  > If you don’t like their content, simply move along.

                  This is actually great advice for people who keep trying to take down queer content.

                  Edit: And this is exactly what figures like Breitbart have been openly trying to do for over a decade. And it isn't just him either, you have the Family Research Council, Fox News hosts, Daily Wire personalities like Matt Walsh, and Libs of TikTok have all made careers out of normalizing queer erasure. For them, "winning the culture war" is not only their stated, in-text goal, it's a means of pushing us out of public life: sometimes just running us out of town, other times things too ugly to say aloud.

                  1. AFSP – LGBTQ youth face higher suicide risk, but affirming spaces cut that risk significantly. https://afsp.org/preventing-suicide-in-lgbtq-communities/ 2. Springer (2025) – Queer teens are 5–8× more likely to attempt suicide; supportive spaces reduce risk. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12310-025-09797-4 3. Trevor Project (2020) – Having even one affirming space lowers suicide attempts by 35%. https://www.thetrevorproject.org/research-briefs/lgbtq-gende... 4. Oxford Research Encyclopedia (2019) – History shows censorship of queer spaces often escalates into violence and erasure. https://oxfordre.com/politics/politics/view/10.1093/acrefore...

                  • By rtp4me 2025-12-1113:472 reply

                    Erases your existence? Would your existence be threatened if Meta was not a company? What about the countless number of other companies who are not pushing your content? Do you feel threatened by them? Now I see why you chose the word "hate"...

                    • By ToucanLoucan 2025-12-1113:57

                      No, my existence isn’t contingent on Meta existing. But when a platform with billions of users decides queer content is unwelcome, it erases us from one of the largest public squares in the world, at a time when public squares are at a premium. That’s not the same as "some random company doesn’t carry my stuff."

                      There's also a difference between not amplifying something and actively suppressing it. Neutral omission is one thing; deliberate censorship is another. When queer content is singled out for removal, it sends a message: you don’t belong here. That's erasure.

                      History shows us that erasure is rarely neutral. It's part of a continuum: silence leads to exclusion leads to violence. Pretending censorship is harmless ignores the fact that queer people have lived through this cycle many times before, and we're far from alone.

                    • By afavour 2025-12-1114:24

                      > not pushing your content

                      Why are you conflating "not pushing" with "actively censoring"?

        • By deaux 2025-12-1113:471 reply

          > And, lots of very talented and smart people work there every day for their own personal reasons. No need to bash or show hatred to them.

          Lots of very talented and smart people work for big tobacco, Aramco, Stake (crypto gambling), Kick (streaming of crypto gambling), Purdue (made billions on manufacturing an opioid epidemic), DuPont, Shein, Nestlé, NSO group, the GEO group (private prison industry), Clearview (facial recognition at scale including for ICE) and indeed Meta.

        • By mulr00ney 2025-12-1113:211 reply

          What would be a resaonable cause to bash them, in your view, if not disliking what they do?

          I don't think we should hate them or show them hatred. I don't think that if you're working at a company that's suppressing someone's way of life you're somehow above criticism or contempt.

          • By rtp4me 2025-12-1113:281 reply

            The question is, why do you feel the need to bash them? Do you feel the need to bash the coders of YouTube because they have ads or censor content? Do you feel the need to say ugly things to your grocery store because they don’t actively have the goods you want? Are they your enemy because they hire a certain type of person?

            • By mulr00ney 2025-12-1114:001 reply

              > The question is

              I don't mean to be a dick, but no, the question was what is a reasonable cause to bash someone if it's not disliking what they do. I don't know if these weird Socratic replies are meant to be thoughtful but they read as dismissive and condescending.

              But hey, I can also play stupid games!

              > The question is, why do you feel the need to bash them?

              Why do you feel the need to defend them? (I answer this question less flippantly below.)

              > Do you feel the need to say ugly things to your grocery store because they don’t actively have the goods you want?

              Is not stocking garbanzo beans censorship? Why do you think this is equivalent?

              > Do you feel the need to bash the coders of YouTube because they have ads or censor content?

              Depends what Youtube is advertising. Depends what they're censoring.

              > Are they your enemy because they hire a certain type of person?

              Who'd they hire?

              ...

              There is a difference between my grocery store stocking or not stocking something and having problems with a multi-national trillion dollar company that has wedged itself itself into most people's daily lives and has a history of censoring content to curry favour with authoritarians.

              I sympathize with the folks who are working there trying to change things for the better, and I sympathize with the people who are legitimately stuck for whatever reason (don't know a lot about visas to the US, but those are probably a good reason). I also think they're tough enough to take it when they dunked on, and have the reading comprehension to realize that when people are critical of Facebook employees, there's context where it absolutely makes sense. Being a Facebook employee is not an identity, it's just a job. Facebook has pivoted to censoring queer content at a time when queer people are being marginalized after years of gains. Most of my ire is directed at the executives and management, but yeah, if you work at Facebook knowing what they do, you're not getting a pass.

              • By rtp4me 2025-12-1114:20

                My replies are not meant to be dismissive and condescending - they are just frank/honest questions. No need to try to decipher a hidden message.

                BTW - Meta wedged itself into most people's lives because the people let it happen. It started off well enough, but just like many companies, they adjusted their content based on the people consuming the platform. Its (Meta's) survival is based on getting views and posting ads. That's the business model. If they started showing content that appealed to a small percentage of their viewership, they would probably go out of business.

        • By prmoustache 2025-12-1113:41

          While privately owned business can put ethics before outright profit, large public companies are always bound to become assholes so yes they become de facto our enemies while also being our best friends because our pension depends on them.

        • By gherkinnn 2025-12-1114:33

          Some businesses go out of their way to be awful and they deserve every ounce of scorn. Some even know they are causing harm, bury the evidence and continue.

          Also, simping for these companies is such a bad look.

        • By panta 2025-12-1113:031 reply

          It is actively working to make the world a worse place and to degrade the fabric of society that makes them an enemy.

          • By rtp4me 2025-12-1113:192 reply

            I dunno. I used Market Place yesterday to get a new dry erase board (new to me). And, many people use FB to communicate with friends and family. How is that working to make the world a worse place?

            • By sumeno 2025-12-1113:341 reply

              Things can be good for you personally and still make the world a worse place.

            • By immibis 2025-12-1120:11

              No idea. There was once this German guy who planted flowers in front of factories. His name was Adolf Hitler and I'm not sure why everyone hates him so much. (This is sarcastic and do you see the problem with your comment now?)

        • By otikik 2025-12-1113:28

          > No need to bash or show hatred to them

          Not only bash but zsh, fish and sh them as well.

        • By mikkupikku 2025-12-1114:41

          Corporations aren't your enemy in the same way bears aren't your enemy. They are... bears.

          Its not personal, and they operate outside of human morality so it doesn't even make sense to call them evil. But they'll still eat you.

      • By ancillary 2025-12-1113:141 reply

        > And that's also pretty simply explained by this classic quote: it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

        I've come to strongly dislike this quote, because it's so often used on HN to decide that whoever's disagreeing with you is doing it for simple, stupid and greedy reasons, thus absolving you of the duty to think a bit about whether there might be nuance you're missing.

        • By psychoslave 2025-12-1113:23

          We all have limited cognitive budget. Keep nuance investment were there is relevancy for it makes more sense than spending it on things where it’s not going to bring any value to anyone.

    • By xdkyx 2025-12-1112:29

      "this will allow me to get more money"

    • By GuB-42 2025-12-1115:551 reply

      You have the point of view that having publicly available queer content and abortion information is a good thing, something I generally agree with.

      But not everyone think that way, some think that by limiting access to abortion information, they are actually saving (unborn) lives. Some people think that "sex positive" movements are morally questionable and help spread infection. For them, they are the good guys and they think that Meta is finally doing the right thing.

      These are divisive political subjects and political parties with these ideas get elected for a reason. In a democracy, parties will not promote ideas that no one agree with, they need the votes, so if they are promoting them, it means that for a large part of the population, it is the right thing to do. HN is a bubble with mostly liberal ideas, we have to understand it for what it is.

      That's in addition to the idea that "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it". But it applies more to activities that are almost universally recognized as bad rather than partisan ideas, things like scamming.

      • By duskdozer 2025-12-1213:27

        >HN is a bubble with mostly liberal ideas

        I'm not sure I agree with this, though I suppose it depends on what one defines as "liberal."

        >In a democracy, parties will not promote ideas that no one agree with, they need the votes, so if they are promoting them, it means that for a large part of the population, it is the right thing to do.

        I would say instead that it means that for a large part of the voting population, the ideas are not objectionable enough for them to vote differently or abstain. People are already voting in spite of the disconnect between the policies they support and the policies that actually get implemented [0]

        [0] https://archive.org/details/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_th...

    • By jfindper 2025-12-1114:08

      Positions higher up the corporate ladder are optimized for people who feel little/no guilt or empathy.

      I forget the exact statistic, but CEOs are disproportionately sociopaths (compared to the whole population).

      So, no story required because there's no guilt felt.

    • By drcongo 2025-12-1113:231 reply

      You'd need to be a psychopath to work there in the first place, so I doubt any of them have any feelings about this at all.

      • By bell-cot 2025-12-1113:28

        Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

        "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair

    • By greekrich92 2025-12-1113:21

      Sociopathy is often comorbid with being an executive

    • By alistairSH 2025-12-1112:351 reply

      Corporations aren’t people, despite what US law sometimes claims.

      And Meta in particular - just look at the founder/leader. The “CEOs are all sociopaths” trope exists because of people like Zuck.

      • By jjcob 2025-12-1112:551 reply

        Corporations aren't people, but in the end it's still people that are responsible for this crackdown on liberal content. It's someone at Facebook making these decisions, someone who is a person, we just don't know who the responsible person is.

        • By netsharc 2025-12-1113:11

          Zuck has shown he's more interested in money/power than the well-being of other humans (the "dumb fucks"), he's cozied up to Xi Jinping and Donald Trump.

          Donald Trump's co-opted the religious nuts that are anti-abortion and anti-LGBT, and Zuck is more than happy to please him rather than risk prosecution and losing his money or freedom. What a model of cowardice.

    • By ModernMech 2025-12-1113:29

      Welcome to the world of antisocial personality disorders. The rationale goes:

      That didn't happen.

      And if it did, it wasn't that bad.

      And if it was, that's not a big deal.

      And if it is, that's not my fault.

      And if it was, I didn't mean it.

      And if I did, you deserved it.

      It's called the "narcissist's prayer", it's what narcissists and sociopaths tell themselves to absolve themselves of accountability. Whatever the situation, they have an excuse as to how it's not their fault. It's like the stages of grief but for people trying to avoid consequences or guilt for their actions.

    • By watwut 2025-12-1113:03

      They feel good about it and proud about themselves

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