Facebook being investigated in Germany for tying Oculus use to Facebook accounts

2020-12-1013:44752237techcrunch.com

Facebook’s bad week just got worse: It’s being investigated in Germany for linking usage of its VR product, Oculus, to having a Facebook account. The tech giant raised the hackles of the VR community…

Facebook’s bad week just got worse: It’s being investigated in Germany for linking usage of its VR product, Oculus, to having a Facebook account.

The tech giant raised the hackles of the VR community this summer when it announced it would be merging users of the latest Oculus kit onto a single Facebook account — and would end support for existing Oculus account users by 2023.

New users were immediately required to have a Facebook account in order to log in and access content for the virtual reality kit.

In August Facebook also announced that it was changing the name of the VR business it acquired back in 2014 for around $2 billion — and had allowed to operate separately — to “Facebook Reality Labs“, signalling the assimilation of Oculus into its wider social empire.

(Related: The last of Oculus’ original co-founders left the company last year.)

In recent years Facebook has been pushing to add a “social layer” to the VR platform — but the heavy-handed requirement for Oculus users to have a Facebook account has not proved popular with gamers.

Now antitrust authorities are taking an interest in the move.

Germany’s Federal Cartel Office (aka, the Bundeskartellamt) said today that it’s instigated abuse proceedings against Facebook to examine the linkage between Oculus VR products and its eponymous social network.

In a statement, its president, Andreas Mundt, said:

In the future, the use of the new Oculus glasses requires the user to also have a Facebook account. Linking virtual reality products and the group’s social network in this way could constitute a prohibited abuse of dominance by Facebook. With its social network Facebook holds a dominant position in Germany and is also already an important player in the emerging but growing VR (virtual reality) market. We intend to examine whether and to what extent this tying arrangement will affect competition in both areas of activity.

The FCO has another “abuse of dominance proceeding” ongoing against Facebook — related to how it combines user data for ad profiling in a privacy-hostile way, which the authority contends is an abuse of Facebook’s market dominance.

That case is seen as highly innovative in how it combines privacy and antitrust concerns so is being closely watched.

The latest FCO proceeding against Facebook comes at an awkward time for the tech giant, which has been hit with a massive antitrust lawsuit from 46 U.S. States — accusing it of suppressing competition through monopolistic business practices.

As antitrust regulators have stepped up their scrutiny of Zuckerberg’s empire in recent years, Facebook has responded aggressively: Announcing a plan to consolidate its messaging products onto a single technical backend, as well as adding Facebook branding to its acquisitions — in an apparent bid to make it harder for competition regulators to order a break up.

Facebook’s PR has also sought to cloak the “single backend” move by claiming it will increase user privacy.

Yet the states’ antitrust case against the company includes filings that show a Facebook executive discussing using moments of perceived increased competition for its business as an opportunity to decrease user privacy.

So, uh, awkward….

Reached for comment on the FCO Oculus proceeding, a Facebook spokesperson sent us this statement: “While Oculus devices are not currently available for sale in Germany, we will cooperate fully with the Bundeskartellamt and are confident we can demonstrate that there is no basis to the investigation.”

The tech giant has used a series of legal tactics to block the FCO’s earlier order against “superprofiling” users.

Last year Facebook successfully applied to block the order banning it from combining user data. However, Germany’s Federal Court of Justice reversed the decision of the Higher Regional Court — confirming the FCO’s order.

Although, the hearing on the main proceeding is still pending at the Düsseldorf Higher Regional Court — currently scheduled for March 26, 2021 (after being postponed from a date in November).

Facebook also responded to the Federal Court of Justice ruling by filing another emergency appeal against the FCO’s order — succeeding for a second time in blocking the order against combining user data.

The FCO says it does not have a route to appeal this preliminary block on points of law — meaning it’s had to lodge a complaint with the Federal Court of Justice, which it did on December 2.

In a statement, Mundt criticized Facebook for resorting to “legal remedies” to block the order, which he said is delaying relief for consumers and competitors vis-à-vis Facebook’s abusive practices.

“The fact that Facebook has resorted to various legal remedies is not surprising in view of the significance which our proceedings have for the group’s business model. Nevertheless, the resulting delay in proceedings is of course regrettable for competition and consumers,” he said.

“This is the second time that the Higher Regional Court has preliminarily granted an emergency appeal filed by Facebook. The deadline imposed on Facebook for implementing our demands has again been suspended. As in our view the reasons for this are not sustainable, we have immediately filed a complaint with the Federal Court of Justice. We want the clock to be ticking again for Facebook.”

Facebook using courts to block attempts to hold its business model accountable for violating regional laws is par for the course in Europe.

The tech giant has recently succeeded in blocking a preliminary order from Ireland’s Data Protection Commission to suspend personal data transfers to the U.S. by applying for a judicial review of the regulator’s process, for example.

It also sought to block Irish courts from referring the Schrems II case, which underpins that decision, to the CJEU in the first place — though it did not succeed.

In public remarks in September, Facebook VP Nick Clegg claimed it’s taking that legal action not to defend its own business model but to “try to send a signal that this is a really big issue for the whole European economy, for all small and large companies that rely on data transfers” — which he suggested would be “absolutely disastrous” for the EU as a whole.


Read the original article

Comments

  • By jimrandomh 2020-12-1014:5211 reply

    The worst part of the Facebook/Oculus integration is that there's no way to log out--you can't even revoke the login remotely via the Facebook settings page which can do that for any other device--so anyone who has access to your headset has access to your Facebook account and your Messenger history, forever.

    With Quest 1, which had a separate account system, I would frequently show off the headset by letting people try it on. With Quest 2, anyone who tries it on would have full access to my Facebook account and Messenger history, so I can't do that. And no, they don't give you any sort of warning about this, you have to figure it out yourself.

    (I reported this to their bug bounty program on October 26. The submission was rejected as a duplicate. I rechecked today and it was still not fixed.)

    • By btown 2020-12-1015:185 reply

      Clearly not being able to log out is a feature, not a bug. Mother Facebook is looking out for you by ensuring you're incentivized not to share your hardware with other people. After all, who knows what nefarious things they might do to it! And you wouldn't even be able to hang out with them in VR! If they wanted a headset, they should just get their own.

      But, you might say, what if they can't afford to get their own Oculus? Facebook, aren't you just limiting your own audience by having this policy? Trust us, we've thought of everything.

      With the new Oculus Direct program, you can just tell your friends they can rent-to-own a headset at $0 down, 0% APR for 12 months. And as a Oculus Direct Ohana Team Member, you can even get a credit to your own Oculus bill for every new user who signs up for Oculus Direct from your referrals, as well as a credit for every new user they sign up, and so on! And if you grow your network wide enough, you can build that network into a business!

      Contact us for more details about the benefits of joining the Oculus Direct Ohana!

      • By mrits 2020-12-1017:383 reply

        I don't see Facebook alone in this. The whole gaming industry is headed this direction. Most of my game purchases are in Steam. PS5 has a digital only version.

        • By TheKarateKid 2020-12-1018:292 reply

          There's a difference between forcing you to use a gaming account for a gaming service, and forcing you to use a social media account entirely irrelevant to gaming with your entire real-life identity (and web history, ad profiling, and in-store purchases) to use a gaming service.

          • By saddlerustle 2020-12-1020:391 reply

            An Xbox now requires a Microsoft account, which also has associated web history, ad profiling and purchase history.

            • By easton 2020-12-1020:501 reply

              But you can make a separate one just for Xbox and they won’t ban you, unlike Facebook. And you don’t have to use your real name.

          • By mrits 2020-12-1019:00

            I don't see too much that Facebook collects about you that Steam doesn't. If you aren't using a Facebook desktop app Steam probably knows quite a bit more about you actually.

            If you are really concerned about your "real-life identity" I'd recommend not publishing it in a service that is made for public consumption

        • By bobthepanda 2020-12-1017:48

          In addition many physical copies, if not most or all, mostly are either straight up a redemption for an online key or are functionally telling your system to go download it.

          Optical drives haven’t been standard issue in PCs for a while now.

        • By solinent 2020-12-1018:001 reply

          We need to allow multiple app stores with DRM per store, it's the only solution to avoid a monopolistic store that I see. It won't happen except through the legal system, I think.

          • By entropicdrifter 2020-12-1019:42

            I mean, on PC we already have that, plus a few DRM-free stores like GoG

      • By KaiserPro 2020-12-1015:402 reply

        You're assuming that there is a coherent driving force here.

        I suspect that its more a case that they literally haven't thought about it.

        • By jjulius 2020-12-1016:272 reply

          Forgive my ignorance, but how could something as simple as logging out most likely be something "that they literally haven't thought about"?

          I, at least, would assume that that would be considered a basic/essential feature.

          • By blululu 2020-12-1017:172 reply

            If you see enough UX flows you would probably less surprised that an essential feature is 1 missing, 2 inaccessible. A professor of architecture used to ask the question at senior presentations: “where is the door?”. People should have heard him ask that question before and yet somehow people forgot to include something as practical and fundamental as door in their elaborate models. It’s not like these people are idiots, they’re just regular people who have other priorities and are trying to get things out the door before the next review cycle.

            • By freehunter 2020-12-1018:521 reply

              Ugh I had a CAD architecture class in engineering school and the final project was to design a restaurant and we did an amazing job building the best restaurant in the world until the teacher asked... where's the kitchen?

              Whoops. We got so excited about the pool table and the bar and the reception area that we forgot the only thing that makes a restaurant actually a restaurant... a place to cook food.

              • By phkahler 2020-12-1019:541 reply

                I hate to say it but that means your design also failed to consider the foot traffic to and from the kitchen which also affects the dining experience :-) designing stuff can be hard...

                • By freehunter 2020-12-1020:04

                  It would have been a fantastic bring-your-own-food social lounge though!

                  There's a reason I work in IT and not architecture these days :)

            • By edgyquant 2020-12-1019:41

              I'm sorry but there is no way that facebook "didn't think about logging out." They thought about it and decided they didn't want to implement it, whatever the reason is may be up for dispute but, they definitely thought about it.

          • By amelius 2020-12-1016:513 reply

            Probably all of the engineers working at Oculus thought about it.

            That doesn't mean the company's "collective mind" thought about it, however.

            • By cool_dude85 2020-12-1017:473 reply

              The lengths some people are willing to go to absolve FB of wrongdoing here are pretty incredible. Concretely, I'm sure the problem has been brought up plenty of times by plenty of people. However, the log out button got clogged up in the phlogiston at FB and they're having a hell of a time looking for it!

              • By phkahler 2020-12-1019:58

                I suspect they were so caught up in the idiotic idea that you have to be logged in to Facebook to use the thing that they figured logging out would just make the thing useless, so why allow that? It still seems like having multiple users should have been thought about.

              • By KaiserPro 2020-12-117:57

                > absolve FB of wrongdoing

                much as it is trendy, you really have to think past the binary $company good/evil argument.

                My argument is as follows:

                1) there is no logout button for your oculus account. Its not a flow that already exists. You need to factory-reset your device to log out.

                2) the team that was put in charge of linking FB accounts to oculus are not the same team that owns the home screen gui.

                3) working between teams is a hard problem

                4) adding a logout flow is a boat load of work, because the rift os was never designed to do logging out, because why would you need to log out of an oculus device, barring cockups?

                Personally I think its a mistake to force linking accounts. I can see why they want it, it makes future multiplayer and AR integrations better.

              • By lovegoblin 2020-12-1017:561 reply

                I think it's not an attempt at absolution so much as Hanlon's Razor.

                • By nitrogen 2020-12-1018:051 reply

                  If anything I think the fact that organizations have an emergent "collective mind" that is semi-independent from any individual suggests that organizations should be held to an even higher standard of behavior than they have been.

                  • By Arelius 2020-12-1019:49

                    To be fair, I think the emergent "collective mind" is likely far stupider more instinctual than the minds of the individuals. (hence why considering incentive structures is important)

                    That aside, I agree that yes, organizations should be held to a higher standard than they have been.

            • By incompleteCode 2020-12-1017:17

              I'm sure they've thought about it, and rejected it.

              If the product heads haven't given thought to this despite being more than aware of the current anti-trust environment, then they're just incompetent.

            • By wanderer2323 2020-12-1017:21

              more likely the company's "collective mind" intentionally deprioritized/removed this feature

        • By emsy 2020-12-1017:07

          That doesn't really matter. Facebook has more than used up its credit of trust. Anyone that is not suspicious when FB messes up yet again hasn't paid attention to what they're up to.

      • By dheera 2020-12-1020:42

        I really don't understand why so many people would finance a headset instead of just setting the cash aside in a stable investment and owning 12 months later.

        For immediate necessities like a car or mobile phone I get it, but a VR headset isn't a necessity. Own later instead of financing. You might even be able to buy used at half price in 12 months.

      • By triceratops 2020-12-1020:38

        > Mother Facebook is looking out for you by ensuring you're incentivized not to share your hardware with other people.

        Fighting its own lonely battle against Covid. /s

      • By saddlerustle 2020-12-1016:003 reply

        That's a very cynical take. From what I hear support for multiple user profiles is shipping soon, it's just not done yet.

        • By hobs 2020-12-1016:17

          A cynical take? Oculus is a locked down ecosystem that fb purposefully sharded off.

          Anything but cynicism regarding this product is w-e-i-r-d.

        • By ARandomerDude 2020-12-1016:08

          And that release will introduce a "bug" where the microphone will always be on. A totally unrelated bug will release advertising metrics from the audio and headset user login history to advertisers. They'll fix the bugs but unwittingly cause...

        • By chaostheory 2020-12-1016:511 reply

          I'm more in agreement with you here. imo This is more a stupidity and not malice situation, but the other side has plenty of valid points, most of which is from Facebook's own history. They're not a good actor historically and the best way to predict the future is to look at history.

          • By 908087 2020-12-1017:21

            Are we seriously still doing the "stupidity not malice" thing for ~$800B advertising corporations with a long and well-docunented history of malicious actions behind them?

    • By chaostheory 2020-12-1016:42

      The best most ironic part of the forced Facebook login is that you still have to manually add your Facebook friends as your Oculus friends. Unlike with IG, it doesn't even suggest your Facebook friends to be friends. If adding Facebook friends who joined Oculus was automatic, at least you can argue there was immediate utility, but as of right now it feels like they're just signalling that FB will watch your every move and spy on you.

    • By JPKab 2020-12-1016:422 reply

      As a person without a facebook account, I feel locked out of many things I shouldn't be.

      Oculus is a small example, but I shouldn't be forced to have one to be notified of my town council meetings, for instance. I realize now that the way the open web died was FB making it super easy to create walled off websites for people, vs real websites.

      • By freehunter 2020-12-1019:07

        Facebook really did and does fill a need that's been open for a very long time: a central communications/notification platform. It's been tried time and time again, with both open standards and closed standards, but Facebook is the one that caught on (very unfortunately).

        For a few years I ran a successful business in my small-but-bustling town of using the Facebook Events API to pull in all the events in the area and putting them on a single calendar, then pushing those events back to my business's Facebook page before the event started. At that point everyone in town can either visit my website or follow my Facebook page, and now they have one central place to get all the town's news. I could never convince business owners to put all their events on my site directly, because "our audience is all on Facebook already" but people would have to follow a couple dozen pages and check them each individually (because Facebook won't show you everything you've followed).

        Facebook eventually shut down that API (with no notice, against their own SLAs) and I kept scraping the data by hand because the residents and the businesses found it so useful. Then the pandemic hit and these small businesses had no money to pay me and they weren't holding events anymore anyway. But even after we're done with the pandemic I doubt I'll be picking it back up because Facebook is an abusive business partner to begin with, and the people you're then forced to interact with on Facebook are some of the worst and most toxic human beings I've ever met. I've had death threats from my own neighbors because an event I advertised was sold out. I've had Facebook followers stop me on the street and complain to me about taxes and zoning because they can't tell the difference between a news outlet and the city government.

        But it really does highlight that Facebook is meeting a demand that nothing else, not email or RSS or SMS or anything has been able to meet. It's just a shame that they're the worst possible company to make a social network that you'd actually want to interact with.

    • By jayd16 2020-12-1016:521 reply

      The Quest OS is Android based and multiple accounts in Android is still kind of buggy and niche.

      Game purchases are per user account not per device, which means you'd need to redownload any games anyway? It not really set up with the same kind of simplicity an Xbox or Playstation has as far as account tracking goes.

      Its not really an excuse but I could see why there are problems to solve with it and they might have just deprioritized it. You can still wipe and re-login and re-download but that's a pain.

      Maybe they'll add a guest mode or something.

      • By gknoy 2020-12-1017:521 reply

        I get the idea that the device can only know about one account at a time, but it's absurd that you can't do a factory reset on the hardware and then revoke the credentials from your FB account. ("I no longer own this hardware...", or "my Oculus was stolen".)

        • By filoleg 2020-12-1020:45

          >it's absurd that you can't do a factory reset on the hardware and then revoke the credentials from your FB account.

          You can do that. I literally did it 2 weeks ago, when I was giving away my Quest 1 headset to someone. Was a pretty smooth and simple process.

    • By marricks 2020-12-1018:22

      I mean, I think the worst part is the implicit loss of privacy baked into tying the accounts and the eventual data goldmine VR/AR will be for FB.

      I think you're complaint is valid and I'm sure you don't mean it this way but... comments like this rub me wrong because that can be fixed with a better system, and likely will when enough people complain. It gets in the way of sharing and spreading VR which I'm sure they want to do.

      Once it's fixed it will be another step on the path to saying "well FB's privacy in VR isn't as bad as it used to be!" and that's the road to acceptance.

    • By crispyporkbites 2020-12-1015:185 reply

      So you can’t sell it either?

      Reminds me of digital games that cost the same as a physical copy, but you can’t resell.

      • By Tactic 2020-12-1016:35

        You can factory reset it.

      • By yladiz 2020-12-1015:332 reply

        I'm not sure about all Oculus products, but I had an Oculus Go and I was able to reset it, so I was able to sell it.

        • By filoleg 2020-12-1020:49

          Can confirm the same from my own experience with Oculus Q1+Q2

      • By filoleg 2020-12-1020:48

        Idk where this comes from, you absolutely can. Hardware factory reset on Oculus Quest devices (both 1 and 2) is a thing. I did it myself last month, as I was giving away my Quest 1 headset, it is pretty simple.

        It would be extremely strange if that wasn't possible.

      • By amelius 2020-12-1016:071 reply

        You can't sell it? Is such a limitation even allowed by law?

        • By jonny_eh 2020-12-1017:22

          You can factory reset it.

      • By whatch 2020-12-1015:59

        Isn't there some sort of hard reset?

    • By joshxyz 2020-12-1015:301 reply

      Jeez talk about being unable to log out in Messenger without having to log in a new user, its annoying AF.

      Those fuckers who thought and approved of that should be kicked in the nuts by steel-toe-shoe-wearing professionally frustrated soccer players.

    • By giancarlostoro 2020-12-1018:182 reply

      > The worst part of the Facebook/Oculus integration is that there's no way to log out--you can't even revoke the login remotely via the Facebook settings page which can do that for any other device--so anyone who has access to your headset has access to your Facebook account and your Messenger history, forever.

      I guess the solution to this is obvious: delete your facebook account if your Oculus is lost or stolen... I might be inclined to just delete my Facebook altogether if I were an Oculus owner.

      • By MrZongle2 2020-12-1018:28

        I'd even go as far as suggesting that everyone delete their Facebook accounts now.

      • By Naracion 2020-12-1116:25

        This makes me wonder, what does happen if you're logged in to Quest 2 with your Facebook account, and then you delete your Facebook profile? Do you lose access to the Quest? Do you get a fresh device? Do you get to keep your purchases, since I assume the purchases are now linked to your Facebook account?

    • By shoulderfake 2020-12-1019:11

      I would never get that thing because of facebook

    • By abrookewood 2020-12-116:16

      Does this effectively mean you can't sell the devices once used? [Edit]: Looks like you can reset it, so you can sell it.

  • By gravypod 2020-12-1014:2713 reply

    If this separates Oculus into it's own company I'd probably buy one of the new headsets. The things Facebook is doing here definitely detracts from the product. I don't have to give Logitech my drivers license to plug in a mouse.

    • By glitcher 2020-12-1015:074 reply

      > I don't have to give Logitech my drivers license to plug in a mouse

      Reminds me of how Nvidia's Geforce Experience application requires you to create an account with them just for the convenience of auto-updating your graphics card driver. This "experience" sure doesn't feel right to me, so I update those drivers manually.

      Companies are really trying everything they can think of to get more of your information, even if it's just an email address.

      • By chaorace 2020-12-1015:363 reply

        This is particularly funny when you consider that Windows Update will automatically update your graphics drivers once they go through WHQL. Manually installing drivers from Nvidia's website is actually a user experience downgrade, since Windows Update won't touch graphics drivers you pull in yourself.

        For the record: I ended up biting the bullet with Geforce Experience regardless, because of the other features they had on offer that were tied to the app. It left a bad taste in my mouth and I ultimately dropped Nvidia cards entirely for AMD. Switching to AMD in turn made dropping Windows easier! (arch user btw)

        • By sippeangelo 2020-12-1015:572 reply

          It's extra hilarious since Geforce Experience is an electron app you can just path out the login window yourself and be on your way :) https://github.com/Moyster/BaiGfe

          • By wvenable 2020-12-1021:14

            What? That's awesome. I don't really care that much about having an account but the Geforce Experience app requires me to re-login every few months and I always have trouble remembering the password. It's just a hassle all the time.

          • By emteycz 2020-12-1017:04

            To be fair, we do that with all software, it's just one bit harder.

        • By eznzt 2020-12-1017:28

          The drivers from Windows Update are absurdly out of date. If you play recent games you'll have serious bugs and performance regressions.

        • By wil421 2020-12-1020:37

          Windows update failed to get the newest Nvidia drivers that were pushed out ahead of Cyberpunk 2077. I had to manually download them to get the game to stop crashing.

      • By mouldysammich 2020-12-1015:57

        I really despise that you need to login for it, especially as it used to be optional. I wanted to try remote play on a psvita[1] but did not want to so someone has made a thing to let you use geforce experience without a login[2] and i found it worked reasonably well.

        [1] https://github.com/xyzz/vita-moonlight [2] https://github.com/Moyster/BaiGfe

      • By nickthegreek 2020-12-1015:171 reply

        and geforce experience never remembers my login.

        • By josefresco 2020-12-1016:48

          THIS - I have 4 computers with NVIDIA graphics cards and am constantly ask to re-authenticate.

      • By TheRealDunkirk 2020-12-1018:58

        In the console-vs-PC debate about gaming, this is a solid point in favor of consoles.

    • By DoofusOfDeath 2020-12-1015:032 reply

      Same for me. I was waffling between getting my family a Valve Index vs. Quest 2 for Christmas. The mandatory Facebook tie-in cinched my decision.

      • By rv-de 2020-12-1015:271 reply

        that's an apple/onion comparison ...

        • By DoofusOfDeath 2020-12-1015:333 reply

          What do you mean?

          • By metalliqaz 2020-12-1015:431 reply

            I think he's referring to the fact that Index must be tied to a PC and Quest is standalone, and probably also that they use different app ecosystems.

            • By Sargos 2020-12-1016:16

              Also $1000 vs $300 heh

          • By doctorfoo 2020-12-1015:44

            Well, they are very different devices. The Quest is currently a one of a kind device when it comes to ease of use and setup. (Which makes it doubly annoying to me the Facebbok tie in. I adored the Quest one but I sent it back for a refund due to Facebook's ridiculous decision not to allow multiple user accounts. A device which I'm not using 95% of my time cannot easily be shared with other family members?! Utter madness. /rant)

          • By rv-de 2020-12-1019:12

            username checks out </reddit>

    • By bla3 2020-12-1014:521 reply

      Same here, but my guess is that oculus as its own company is not profitable. So the choice is likely between this and no oculus.

      • By lubonay 2020-12-1016:331 reply

        Lots of companies are not profitable in the beginning, that's not a problem for many investors.

        • By cududa 2020-12-1019:19

          Tell that to Magic Leap. Private investors don't have 5-10 year horizons for plowing money into R&D to eventually see if it gets somewhere. This is a multi-billion dollar yearly capital commitment

    • By londev 2020-12-1014:331 reply

      Same here. I was tempted to buy one until I read about the guy who’s device is useless as Facebook banned him.

      • By vvG94KbDUtRa 2020-12-1018:252 reply

        I mean try using a smartphone with a banned apple or google account. A PS5 is a brick if sony bans your account. This is standard industry practice

        • By effingwewt 2020-12-1018:41

          All of which need to be illegal years ago. France is streets ahead here.

          Pointing to other shit companies that are known for anti'consumer practices doesn't help your argument.

        • By tripzilch 2020-12-129:02

          First, it is not at all standard industry practice, because only the largest players can get away with it.

          Second, what is "standard industry practice" is exactly how ethical we force corporations to be.

          FB, as a mindless corporation has it built into its very being to be unable to consider ethics and optimize profits on the edge of legality.

          However, what the hell is your excuse, trying to normalise such behaviour as "standard industry practice" ??

    • By Impossible 2020-12-1016:302 reply

      Oculus couldn't survive by itself. It's possible that Microsoft, Samsung, Apple or someone else would purchase them, but I believe that with Oculus the best possible outcome is for them to role back anti-consumer (required FB login and especially all the policies that come with that) and anti-developer (actually blocking apps they believe compete with them) practices

      • By aylmao 2020-12-1019:23

        > Oculus couldn't survive by itself.

        Do we know how expensive it is to maintain and how much it earns? It probably spends more than the PSVR division at Sony or the Vive division at HTC, but the Quest is quite popular and, if reviews are anything to go by, very close to making VR "mainstream". I'm not convinced it couldn't survive off investor money for a while until it becomes profitable. Silicon Valley is no stranger to unprofitable companies living off investments for years and years after all.

      • By Shared404 2020-12-1017:111 reply

        I could see Epic purchasing Oculus, I would be more likely to get that then with Oculus through facebook.

        Plus, if they put some form of VR integration into Fortnite that could seriously drive adoption.

        • By rock_hard 2020-12-1017:352 reply

          Epic and most other companies don’t have the kind of money to fund Oculus

          I think people don’t appreciate that there is about 5000 engineers working on Oculus at FB. Then add all the supporting functions...it’s easily 7-8k

          • By pg_bot 2020-12-1021:111 reply

            The number of engineers working on a product is not the same as the number of engineers needed to build a product.

            • By wil421 2020-12-1022:58

              Exactly. A friend who worked at Oculus said they had the most over the top tricked out work stations and he was just doing testing.

          • By slipheen 2020-12-1018:071 reply

            Epic games had EBITDA of a billion dollars this year. They could afford quite a bit if they wanted to go that direction.

            • By cududa 2020-12-1019:21

              That wouldn't even cover a year of Oculus' operations.

    • By mortehu 2020-12-1017:023 reply

      Oculus is not just a display, but a computer with a GUI and an app store, so it's more like having to log in to Apple to use an iPad. Not sure you really have to log in if you don't use the Oculus app store.

      • By klmadfejno 2020-12-1018:101 reply

        The difference is that Apple, and Microsoft for that matter, don't give a shit about knowing who I am. They may want data here and there (moreso microsoft), but if you want to give them a fake email address and a fake name, you can march ahead with your device just fine.

        Facebook wants to stick it's eyeball tendrils up my butt before they deign to allow me to use hardware I purchased from them.

        • By aylmao 2020-12-1019:29

          This. The only "big tech" company that's ever asked for official identification (out of the blue, wouldn't let me login otherwise) has been Facebook. Going back to the original comment:

          > I don't have to give Logitech my drivers license to plug in a mouse.

          This sounds like hyperbole but it's a very real comparison.

      • By kmonsen 2020-12-1017:25

        You can use an iPad without an Apple ID, it’s just pretty hidden: https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/use-iphone-without-apple-i... at least as of last year.

      • By gravypod 2020-12-1017:15

        This goes over the setup process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVkivmMKikU

        You must have a Facebook account to get past the setup screen. Even if you just want to use the headset as an input device and a display.

    • By SomeHacker44 2020-12-1014:59

      Agree. If Oculus had the best headset for my needs, I would buy a non-Facebook one too.

    • By taneq 2020-12-1015:051 reply

      The separate company could still sell Facebook all your data though, right?

      • By cududa 2020-12-1019:22

        How else are they going to make money? And I'm not sure that there's much valuable data from Oculus usage to be sold and repackaged to advertisers through facebook

    • By SilasX 2020-12-1016:00

      Yeah but couldn’t they just have some information sharing agreement that would obviate the separation?

    • By klmadfejno 2020-12-1014:35

      Same here. As well as for family members.

    • By Shorel 2020-12-1019:53

      Not going to happen.

      Better to get the Valve Index.

    • By tebbers 2020-12-1014:58

      Hate to echo but...same!

    • By amelius 2020-12-1014:39

      Yes!

  • By eightysixfour 2020-12-1014:444 reply

    Quite a few horror stories on the forums/reddit of people having their facebook account banned for "no reason" which then locks them out of their Quest and all of their purchases. It can still be used with the link cable to a computer, but is otherwise basically bricked.

    Buying one if you don't have a facebook account is even worse, you have to create one which they inevitably decide is a bot and then ban it.

    • By dannyw 2020-12-1014:461 reply

      The funny thing is Oculus reps (now deleted) telling people to create a separate Facebook account for Oculus, and those accounts getting permanently banned with no recourse because it's against Facebook's ToS to have multiple accounts.

      • By leppr 2020-12-1014:532 reply

        Creating fresh accounts for devices requiring them should be standard practice, and companies not allowing this boycotted.

        When you buy an Android phone, Google gives you a "free" account if you chose to create one (no phone number verification needed).

        EDIT: Or not, apparently. Might only work with some whitelisted manufacturers. Boycott Google too I guess.

        • By vorpalhex 2020-12-1015:472 reply

          You can skip the Google account entirely on Android and everything still works more or less (more than a few nag screens, probably worth rooting if you go this direction).

          • By sdflhasjd 2020-12-1018:111 reply

            I think that used to be the case, but I recently got an Android TV (I know it's not _exactly_ the same thing) and had no option but to log in.

            Of course, creating a new account for just one device was a pain too, as Google required some verification steps which included an SMS message.

            • By vorpalhex 2020-12-1019:381 reply

              Was this the new official Google TV (which is NOT actually Android TV though likely based off of it) or a 3rd party product?

              • By denimnerd46 2020-12-1019:58

                The Google TV Chromecast is an Android OS just confirm which is why Stadia doesn't work on it yet. Although you can sideload the Stadia mobile app.

          • By parliament32 2020-12-1017:192 reply

            You can't use the Play Store though, right? So no app installs unless you sideload from some other source?

            • By mrguyorama 2020-12-1017:54

              At that point you could probably sideload one of the alternative app stores and be all set, unless FDroid like hooks into google services for things

            • By vorpalhex 2020-12-1019:36

              There are alternative app stores and actually, the ones I've tried have worked pretty well. There is a way to get play store working but you'd be violating ToS technically.

        • By taylorfinley 2020-12-1015:371 reply

          This has not been my experience for either of my last two Android phones, Google would not create an account without verifying a phone number. Their support forum recommended using a land line or borrowing a friend's phone.

          • By leppr 2020-12-1019:19

            That's sad to hear. The situation with smartphones is magnitudes worse than VR headsets. First, VR headsets have competitive consumer-respecting alternatives (Valve Index), second, they are for now purely an entertainment device, while smartphones are semi-required to competitively function in modern society. I'm surprised no government has yet tried to address the harmful smartphone OS duopoly, the only worthwhile initiatives are from unbacked Open-Source hackers.

    • By alpaca128 2020-12-1015:501 reply

      > Buying one if you don't have a facebook account is even worse, you have to create one which they inevitably decide is a bot and then ban it.

      Twitter does a similar thing: they'll lock your account and demand your real phone number before you can get access again. Luckily it really was a throwaway-account in my case that I created for a random mobile game, but it's still a horrible practice - same with Microsoft's email service, which also may lock you out one day until you enter and verify your phone number.

      • By tekstar 2020-12-1016:01

        Both of your examples have recourse, and do not brick expensive hardware. The Oculus/FB example is much worse.

    • By _iyig 2020-12-1014:482 reply

      > It can still be used with the link cable to a computer

      Can it? Doesn’t Oculus Link only work via the Oculus desktop application, which also requires sign-in?

      • By eightysixfour 2020-12-1015:52

        I haven't had it happen to me, just recalled that others mentioned using it that way. I may very well be mistaken though.

        I'm going non-Oculus tethered for my next VR headset, I have no interest in all of this getting attached to Facebook.

      • By GuardianCaveman 2020-12-1015:09

        Yeah I have to have the desktop app running and am initially thrust into it before I can launch steamvR

    • By saddlerustle 2020-12-1015:554 reply

      My past experience with this sort of thing from the other side of the fence makes me fully expect most of the people complaining the loudest about being banned for "no reason" were probably actually banned because they harassed someone or said something super racist.

      • By Grimm1 2020-12-1016:03

        Sure, but they still paid for a physical product. If I actually own something in the truest sense of the word then a company shouldn't get to have any say over my continued use of the device, games etc regardless of what entirely abhorrent positions I might hold. That's the perks of being a private citizen.

        IMO we need strong regulation against this type of interference passed the sphere of the original transaction. Large COs are trying to make us all renters. Fuck that.

        While I'm pretty pro-corporate this is the ticket issue that grinds my gears.

      • By corndoge 2020-12-1017:371 reply

        Actually this is not true, you should familiarize yourself with this particular scenario. Reviewers and game developers have had their devices bricked for creating new accounts to use on them. This was especially bad during the election period as FB was pretty much banning all new accounts then.

        • By jetrink 2020-12-1017:58

          It also included people who had deleted their account previously and created a new account solely in order to use the device.

      • By nomel 2020-12-1021:04

        I've had my Facebook account for > 10 years, but use it sparingly. It was locked for "suspicious activity" the exact moment I linked my Oculus account to my Facebook account. It gave me two options to unlock it: link my Facebook account with a google account, or send in some pictures of a government ID for verification. I don't believe that the act of linking two, required, accounts on the first day the device was publicly available, before my first experience with VR, is somehow racist or objectionable.

      • By erikpukinskis 2020-12-1016:311 reply

        That’s likely. But is it your opinion that, e.g. Toyota is within its rights to brick your car if you post, e.g. Holocaust denial posts on their owners forums?

        That behavior is abhorrent, but this seems like a weird extrajudicial punishment vector.

        I’m all for private corps policing their network, but bricking your devices seems like a whole other thing.

        • By saddlerustle 2020-12-1016:402 reply

          The device isn't blocked, only the facebook account. They can still sell the device.

          • By jedberg 2020-12-1016:56

            No, that's the point. You can't use the Occulus if your Facebook account is banned.

          • By techlaw 2020-12-1017:01

            But any money spent on apps for that device is lost.

            You cannot sell those apps. You cannot use those apps on competitor devices.

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