Taking away iPhone made daughter a better person

2024-06-1320:07178202www.theguardian.com

I set expectations when she saved up and got the phone – little did I know it would undermine them, and her mental health

The byline on this essay is a pseudonym.

My daughter is one of those kids the US surgeon general warned us about. Our nation’s children are “unknowing participants” in a “decades-long experiment”. Social media usage poses mental health risks to youth, who use it “almost constantly”, causing sleep deprivation, depression and anxiety.

Before sixth grade, my daughter saved her dog-walking money for a phone. She found a used iPhone 13 Mini on Craigslist. I set expectations to incentivize getting good grades, keeping her room clean and taking out the trash. Little did I know that the iPhone would systematically undermine her ability to complete these tasks – and so much more.

When my daughter walked into class through an inflatable arch on her first day of middle school, I took comfort in the fact that I could reach her. Like most parents, I associated the phone with safety, not danger. I didn’t know that social media developers were manipulating her next swipe, or that her “human future” was being sold to the highest bidder, enriching the wealthiest corporations in human history.

I learned the hard way – through my daughter’s lies, manipulation, slipping grades. Through the “zebra-stripe” scars sketched across her arms.

Her sixth-grade school picture captures my daughter’s “emo” phase: the feather earring, Pink Floyd T-shirt and crooked smile. The innocence in that image was quickly replaced by the selfie. Peace-signs-over-puckered-lips selfie. Head tilt, half-face, full-body selfie. The selfie in bed. Her camera roll documents my child’s downward spiral. Crying selfies, puffy-eyed selfies, unable-to-leave-the-bedroom selfies.

By spring semester, my daughter was performing poorly in school. I took her for a psychiatric evaluation, assuming she had ADHD. Afternoon sun filtered through faux wood blinds, casting light strips across her ever-present black hoodie. The doctor’s questions started predictably. Trouble focusing in class? Completing homework? Sleeping? Then the interview took a turn for the dreadful. Do you feel your life isn’t worth living? Have you ever harmed yourself? Do you wish you were dead?

I gaped at my child’s profile, each “yes” lacerating my guts.

The doctor diagnosed my daughter with depression and anxiety. Further testing showed that gaining her friends’ approval occupied 80% of her attention. No wonder she was failing math. It was a miracle she was passing any of her classes at all with only 20% of her brain available for school.

The doctor prescribed therapy and Lexapro. While these were helpful, the doctor failed to alert me to the sweeping phone trends among middle school students. I have since learned that my daughter is among the first generation of 10-to-14-year-olds active on social media. For these girls, suicide rates have risen 151%, self-harm 182%. Her treatment assumed her struggles were individual, as opposed to structural. In our country, we prescribe drugs to solve this social crisis.

Ignorant of these dynamics at the time, I allowed my daughter to continue her social media use. One day, I received a text from another mom. I stared at the screen, wondering why this mom had sent me a graphic selfie. Then I recognized the mole on the woman’s chest. My kid’s mole.

My daughter gasped when I showed her the photo. She handed over her phone. I discovered she’d circumvented the screen limits and had been using social media into the wee hours of the morning. She’d sent the image to someone named PJ on Snapchat. He claimed to be a 16-year-old boy, but his response was so graphic I suspected someone older. The phone was a two-way street, I realized with dread, with platforms adults could use to kidnap and traffic our children.

I called a family meeting with my daughter, her dad and her stepmom. My daughter would delete her social media accounts and give up her phone until the start of the school year. As the summer months passed with travels, in-person hangouts and family time, my daughter returned to herself. The dark circles under her eyes faded. The sighs, shrugs and eyerolls stopped. She got up in the morning. She laughed. She even let me hug her, sometimes.

It was hard to give her phone back before seventh grade, but we had a deal. I wanted to reinforce her good behavior. I made new rules: no social media, no devices in bedrooms, phones off at 8pm. We charged our phones on the kitchen counter. I bought alarm clocks and sound machines. We endured digital detox. My daughter started soccer. My insomnia resolved. We joined a gym and worked out together.

But within a few months, my daughter relapsed. Little lies. Big lies. Another text came from a friend’s mom with selfies of our daughters vaping and hanging out with boys I’d never met at the mall. We held another family meeting.

“This may sound crazy,” my daughter’s stepmom said. “But maybe she doesn’t need a phone.”

The words rippled across my mind. How had I never thought of it? The phone was destroying my daughter, but I couldn’t imagine life without it. I’d remained loyal to the idea of it, the ideal of it. I took custody of the phone again.

My daughter threw a tantrum when I told her she’d lost her phone until high school. She didn’t want to be that kid, the only one in class without her phone. But as the tantrum subsided, she began to return to herself. Then, within a few weeks, signs of her addictive behavior began to resurface.

I found iPhone chargers in the outlets by her bed – for charging her AirPods, she said. She threw her body on the ground to stop me from searching beneath her bed. One night, as I lay in bed ruminating, it hit me. I remembered my daughter had two phones. When I’d accidentally broken the Mini in a weight machine during our workout, I bought her a new iPhone 13. I’d seized the 13, but she could still have the Mini.

“I sold it to a friend at school,” my daughter said when I asked her the next morning. She couldn’t say to whom, or for how much.

“I’ll find it,” I said with an I-see-you gesture. I was frantic, but displayed calm confidence, even a little humor, as I searched her backpack and drawers, patted down her pockets, entered her room unannounced, trying to catch her in the act. My daughter remained calm throughout my searches. I began to think I’d gone completely mad. I bought a metal detector.

Then one evening, I came into her room. My daughter bolted upright and shuffled her comforter. I rushed to the bed, ran my hands under the covers. A charging cord! My fingers traced its length to the attached phone.

We stared at the Mini lying in my hands. The Snapchat app glowed beneath the shattered screen. She looked at me. Her eyes went wide, then filled with tears.

That night, my heartbeat tapped wildly against my pillow as I scrolled her social media. Her exchanges were desperate with need. She pleaded with people to reply, especially a boy named Damien. When he didn’t respond, she said she was depressed, sexted, sent a boob pic.

I found answers via my sister in Johann Hari’s book Stolen Focus, which explores how and why our attention is collapsing: “The phones we have, and the programs that run on them, were deliberately designed by the smartest people in the world to maximally grab and maximally hold our attention.” Of course. At such a young age, my daughter was defenseless against this manipulation. She assessed her worth within a system where she was simultaneously attention-addicted and attention-starved. She’d internalized an algorithm where provocative content wins: “If it’s more enraging, it’s more engaging,” Hari writes.

The social experiment in our house is being replicated in homes across the country. As parents, we want to keep our kids safe. We want them to call us if an active shooter comes to campus. But the greatest danger lies within the phone, not outside if it.

One reason our kids are so addicted to their phones is because we’re addicted to ours. My friends complain of insomnia, but can’t imagine leaving their phones outside the bedroom. Addressing my child’s phone use has meant addressing my own. I have to restrain myself from texting while driving. I’ve stopped rushing to the charge station every morning to see if I missed a message.

As seventh grade ends, my daughter is that kid. Without her phone, she’s the kid who dribbles her soccer ball across the living room, rides her skateboard down the street, makes the honor roll, joins the track team. She’s the kid whose hands gesture wildly as she chats with her friends, who plaits her hair and falls asleep reading a book.

These days, we use my phone together to coordinate hangouts, listen to audiobooks, sing along to her songs and mine – Shakira and Sade, Ice Cube and the Fugees. Last weekend, we drove down the Pacific Coast Highway to visit family. June gloom hugged the coastline as my daughter and I bodysurfed a glassy wave that rushed us to the shore. “Again!” she said, leaping to her feet. She’s addicted to the feeling of the water rolling beneath her belly.

My daughter’s not the only kid. I recently met a woman who seized her 11-year-old son’s phone when she discovered he was sexting. Students at the Illing middle school in Connecticut build community and pay attention in class now that the school makes them put their phones in rubber pouches – a trend that’s quickly spreading. British children are largely learning in “a mobile phone-free environment” since a department of education mandate.

We need both individual and systemic changes to check our phone use. I’m curious where these changes will take us by the time my daughter enters high school.

Until then, I’ll hold the phone.


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Comments

  • By Tade0 2024-06-1321:458 reply

    Harmful effects of social media notwithstanding, it's not just about the phones.

    Reaching for your phone is an example of what psychologists refer to as avoidance behaviours. We look at screens so that we don't have to deal with difficult thoughts and emotions.

    Sure, without a phone that person had no other choice but to face whatever they've been avoiding. But more often than not leaving someone to their own devices when they clearly can't cope with the situation by themselves makes them look for a different source of distraction that in turn will make you wish they were "just" addicted to social media.

    A person doing well mentally has no need to avoid anything. The right thing to do is help them get there, not play whack-a-mole with their coping mechanisms.

    • By windexh8er 2024-06-143:46

      > But more often than not leaving someone to their own devices when they clearly can't cope with the situation by themselves makes them look for a different source of distraction that in turn will make you wish they were "just" addicted to social media.

      A thinly veiled pro-social media post. The quote highlighted alone is very dangerous. It's almost as if people have developed a form of Stockholm syndrome to appeal to social media addictions vs the boogie man that is a "different source of distraction".

    • By talldatethrow 2024-06-1323:551 reply

      Very true. My childhood friend and I were major computer nerds from 1991 to 2002. Then I left for college and he didn't somehow. We had such matched similar personalities for those 10 years.

      By 2008 when I saw him he had totally fallen off from computers and couldn't care less.

      I'm engrossed in tech still and I do waste wayyy to much time on HN, blogs, reading, YouTube, Twitter and the like. No doubt I have a problem..

      My friend though died last year of heroin/fentanyl overdose. He had been struggling with it for 5+ years. Same as I have with modern phones. I wish he had gotten addicted to YouTube shorts instead.

      • By shrimp_emoji 2024-06-1414:591 reply

        Yea, verily. Nerddom is the best path. The true tao.

        Divorce, drug addiction? Sorry; addicted to code, I no longer have time for relationships nor the ability to relate to normal people nor the brain cells to spare.

        COVID lockdowns? Ha; I've been living under lockdown for the last ten years; it's my optimal lifestyle.

        YouTube requiring brain scans with which to inject targeted ads directly into your videos? Too bad; I've already downloaded the Warcraft 3 and StarCraft playthroughs I watch over and over locally.

        Microsoft integrating an AI into Windows which will predict the exact moment you're about to be racist and brick your machine? Nice try; I've already moved to Linux years ago.

        It is the gift that keeps on giving.

        • By schnubbidubb 2024-06-159:45

          Wow sounds a bit like me. Didn't realize that that's a trope somehow, because I know no one else like that.

          But that may be because of the low relationship effort count. Probalby hard for two people of that type to ever meet

    • By bradlys 2024-06-140:04

      A phone, a book, a movie, a show, hobbies, exercise… they’re all going to be parts of “avoidance behavior”.

      Often though, some issues in life are not resolvable through some simple analysis and avoiding thinking about the issue might really be the best course of action.

    • By em-bee 2024-06-145:131 reply

      Harmful effects of social media notwithstanding, it's not just about the phones. Reaching for your phone is an example of what psychologists refer to as avoidance behaviours

      avoid what exactly?

      that needs to be qualified. do they avoid talking to their friends in school? do they avoid facing the fact that they have no friends?

      or are they using it because their friends are doing it as well? what are they avoiding then?

      and and let's not brush aside those harmful effects. some kids may use the phone to avoid facing things that feel worse, but as others mentioned, so do people using drugs or alcohol. the problem is that the harmful effects of the phone/social media are much much less obvious, so many more kids are at risk. drugs and alcohol are so much easier to avoid.

      • By Tade0 2024-06-145:43

        > avoid what exactly?

        I said it already: difficult thoughts and emotions. Teenagers naturally have a lot of that and little to no ability to process them on their own.

    • By coolbreezetft24 2024-06-1321:571 reply

      This is me with my dog. Whenever I'm stressed out from life I can always escape to my bichon

      • By iamthemonster 2024-06-1412:44

        A bichon is not a dog, it is a human baby with extra floof.

    • By turboat 2024-06-1322:531 reply

      Do you have any suggestions on how to help people achieve and maintain good mental health?

      It's true that addiction is ultimately a psychological problem. It's true that people engage in addictive behaviors as a coping mechanism to avoid difficult emotions.

      It's also true that the Internet has enabled a lot of deliberately addictive content. Phones keep that content constantly at hand. And it's difficult to avoid having a phone since they also provide utilities.

      I'd like to live in a world where everyone had such great mental wellness that they were impervious to the temptations of their phones. What are some serious tactics to make that happen?

      • By PlunderBunny 2024-06-161:56

        At the risk of it coming across like I’m boasting or virtue signalling (whatever that means), what keeps me going is the thought that I can use my time and money to help other people. Simple stuff like donating to charities and planting trees.

        For parents, this could take the form of doubling a child’s pocket money/allowance on the condition that half of it is donated to charities - encourage the child to research charities and talk about them.

        (The latter isn’t an original idea - I originally read about it in the form of tripling the pocket money with 1/3 to keep, 1/3 for charity, and 1/3 to invest. If your kid has to do some chores to get their pocket money, then this sets them up with a pattern for a good life (work, then give and save).

    • By spoonjim 2024-06-142:12

      It’s empirically false that people would have equal problems without the phones.

    • By addicted 2024-06-140:27

      > A person doing well mentally has no need to avoid anything.

      True. People doing well mentally should start heroin and meth right now since they have no need to avoid anything. Why should they miss out on that experience since they can just quit.

  • By bigyikes 2024-06-1320:3817 reply

    I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone disagree with the premise that phone and social media addiction is bad for kids (and probably adults too), and yet we still find ourselves in this position.

    What are we to do? Banning phone use on an individual basis is a recipe for social suicide. Some kind of collective action is needed.

    Legislation against phone use for minors is one option, but I wouldn’t expect it to receive widespread support. Banning social media for minors might be workable, but it wouldn’t fully resolve the issue.

    • By cjk2 2024-06-1320:473 reply

      As a parent of three I’d suggest that it’s probably the best to teach them to use them as tools not entertainment.

      As I quoted elsewhere, any extremist or reductionist position makes things worse for them.

      • By erulabs 2024-06-1322:224 reply

        Social media is both a tool and entertainment. It's not entertainment that's wrecking kids. It's being in a global and immutable social circle.

        In the 90s, if you were a nerd in high-school, you get a chance to re-invent yourself in college, and another at your first job. Heck, you can re-invent yourself between different groups of friends. Now, we ask kids to define themselves completely, wholly, all at once, finally, in front of everyone. Got broken up with? It was pretty hard to tell someone in the 90s their lives weren't over, but it's impossible now. There is an (apparently) permanent record of all your failures and lack of successes.

        Tons of kids grew up glued to their Nintendos. I played an _insane_ amount of Starcraft. Our generation did not have the same negative effects that the current generation is having with social media.

        What we need is physical community based social media - ie: a facebook with only your high-school, which becomes inaccessible upon graduation.

        • By noahjk 2024-06-1412:59

          > What we need is physical community based social media - ie: a facebook with only your high-school, which becomes inaccessible upon graduation.

          That’s a really interesting suggestion. It reminds me of haolez’s comment yesterday (abridged by me) [0]:

          > I was a CTO and was a member of a group chat for CTOs. We had very insightful and rich discussions about topics that affected our roles, like vendor reputation, frameworks, team management, talent acquisition and so on.

          > The group became popular and the admin […] merged all group chats into a single one of thousands of users. […] What ended up happening was that the discussions plummeted in quality, where a very noisy minority would take up most of the space in the discussions. There were some high profile CTOs that stopped engaging at that point.

          > This left me wondering if there is enough demand for smaller social networks with very limited visibility that can foster rich and insightful discussions (although this sounds like forums from the nineties).

          ———

          Both of you get at the same point - private and manageable (and moderatable) communities are probably a much better option to allow everyone freedom to interact without feeling insignificant (due to size), and with the right moderation, can be a place which allows healthy conflict, discovery and rule-bending, and the other things that we were able to get up to as kids without our parents knowing, while maybe being moderated by a third party who isn’t acting as an authority figure (people won’t get in trouble for reasonable rule-testing), maybe even some sort of private task-specific bot which looks only for egregious bullying, hate, and scheming?

          I really like your suggestion and would love to see it fleshed out.

          The one thing that I feel differentiates from current-day is that I would like to see automatic enrollment (or ability to enroll) for everyone from the target audience, e.g. not student-run and only one clique, but nothing wrong with it also allowing private sub-areas. There shouldn’t be a technological or social barrier to entry, it should be up to each person (child, in this example) to log in and participate. That would probably help a lot of the shy or socially awkward kids bridge the gap.

          0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40673691

        • By squigz 2024-06-1322:461 reply

          > Now, we ask kids to define themselves completely, wholly, all at once, finally, in front of everyone. Got broken up with? It was pretty hard to tell someone in the 90s their lives weren't over, but it's impossible now. There is an (apparently) permanent record of all your failures and lack of successes.

          For what it's worth, none of this has been my experience at all. I'm not even really sure what the first sentence means exactly.

          • By stonekyx 2024-06-143:15

            I think what it meant is that, in the social networks today, you have to behave “consistently” all the time. If you wrote something today and then say the opposite tomorrow, people online would probably attack you for being untrustworthy or something like that, and refuse to accept your points. But in reality, nobody can be consistent all the time. We’re all different from minute to minute, and it’s perfectly natural to change your opinions however often you want.

        • By AbstractH24 2024-06-162:50

          If you were in any sort of closed community (religious, political, niche industry, etc), the fear of not being able to reinvent yourself was always there. Now its everywhere is the difference.

        • By numpad0 2024-06-1322:36

          That's Discord, Messenger groups, iMessage groups, ...

      • By bluSCALE4 2024-06-1320:563 reply

        Nerd dad here. This is hard. You can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink. Meta Quest is the only tech that's being used as a tool in my house. Everything else are used as toys. I've even tried to restrict games heavily and it still was tough. Basically, some kids will not seek out education things even if they are installed. This was not my upbringing. I would eventually bore of games and looked for educational things like Dangerous Creatures, Microsoft Bob, Encarta, etc. But I am not seeing the same in my kids.

        • By lovethevoid 2024-06-1322:321 reply

          It is hard, but don't forget that toys are learning tools too! You can learn a lot without overtly feeling like you're studying. An example is playing a "learn math" game vs playing Slay the Spire which innately includes a lot of math you have to grasp. Or Hue to understand color theory and color grading without it ever feeling like a "lesson". Kerbal Space Program for basic physics, Portal for momentum and logic (Portal 2 can be great for coop sessions where they figure out how to collaborate and communicate through tough problems that seem impossible).

          A lot of the lack of curiosity is because so many kids are taught to view curiosity as boring, rather than fostering that curiosity as just another form of play.

          There are even things like minecraft plugins/servers where text is translated to a language of your choice, and everyone is encouraged to use only that language to collaborate which can be such an exponentially fast way to learn languages without ever feeling like it's a chore.

          So don't be afraid to seek out things that blur the lines between education and play! Foster that creativity and curiosity.

          • By bluSCALE4 2024-06-151:46

            I've done most of those things but they don't take. For some reason, grind games, pointless games take. Some educational games took but not many. Not enough.

        • By jay_kyburz 2024-06-1321:262 reply

          I have two boys 10 and 12. Same upbringing, same household culture, same screen time rules. The young one loves programming in Scratch, building levels in Roblox, creating music, exploring all kinds of creative projects. The older one has tried it all out, but prefers to just play games.

          • By WheatMillington 2024-06-142:59

            I can already see this disparity forming between my two boys, 7 and 4. It's remarkable how different they are for kids brought up in identical conditions.

          • By cjk2 2024-06-1321:58

            Yeah I only played games as well. They teach you how to solve problems. I am grateful for this.

        • By cjk2 2024-06-1321:061 reply

          Crap time is fine. Not everything has to have educational value or they will get burned out. Variety is the problem.

          • By ricardobeat 2024-06-1321:251 reply

            Their comment implies that very little time is spent in educational content (all the time is “crap time”), which is the other extreme.

            What do you mean by variety is the problem?

            • By cjk2 2024-06-1321:46

              Well I should say lack of variety. Games are healthy, communications are healthy, education is healthy. Too much of any of those at the sacrifice of any other is not.

      • By ryandrake 2024-06-1321:082 reply

        I think in order for parents to do this, they must themselves use their phones as tools and not entertainment.

        Kids are great at spotting hypocrisy, and if parents are seen zombie-scrolling through Instagram for hours, and then they tell their kids not to zombie-scroll because it's bad for you, well the kids will know their parents are totally full of shit.

        It's impossible for parents who are themselves addicted to smartphones to tell their kids not to be addicted to smartphones. The parents need to cure their own addiction first.

        • By ricardobeat 2024-06-1321:29

          This is probably true, but doesn’t stop kids developing addiction on their own. It might encourage them to get started, but once hooked the inputs/outputs are the same.

        • By cjk2 2024-06-1321:11

          100% agree with this on all points.

    • By sarchertech 2024-06-1320:435 reply

      I hope that by the time my 2 year old is in middle school, it’s fairly normal for parents to keep their kids off of social media and smart phones.

      • By vundercind 2024-06-1321:292 reply

        From what I’ve seen right now it depends on SES.

        Fussellian middle class in a suburban school: will call your kid poor and bully them if they don’t have a recent phone by 6th grade (often much earlier)

        Fussellian upper-middle in expensive private school: may not have a phone themselves until high school (handy for keeping in touch when at college-application-building extra curriculars), won’t make fun of kids whose parents don’t give them phone.

        • By bitwize 2024-06-1321:33

          I think you unlocked some core memories for me.

          When I was a kid I moved from a rich suburban New England town to one that was considerably more working class. When I lived in the rich town, no one talked about how much money the other kids' parents had, I guess because everybody was rich. When I lived in the working class town, everybody knew who the rich kid was and who the poor kids were, and where you shopped could get you admired or bullied. Wearing clothes from K-mart was a fast track to becoming a pariah.

        • By Vegenoid 2024-06-1323:111 reply

          What does “Fussellian” mean?

          • By vundercind 2024-06-140:05

            Fussell’s definition of the various classes in America in Class.

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class:_A_Guide_Through_the_A...

            His “Middle” is characterized by a lot of class-anxiety and especially the twin characteristics of wanting to appear like the upper-middle or upper classes, while having very wrong ideas about how those two classes “signal”.

            His upper-middle is basically professional-class (doctors, lawyers, professors, bankers, finance) prep school sorts. Same as the main demographic covered in Birnbach’s The Official Preppy Handbook

      • By 31337Logic 2024-06-1321:02

        For everyone's sake, I hope you're right.

      • By jader201 2024-06-1320:471 reply

        To the OP's point, without some collective support, I don't anticipate this happening.

        In fact, you'll likely have to deal with this as early as elementary school.

        • By sarchertech 2024-06-1320:49

          At least among my peer group, there’s clear support for holding off on smart phones for kids until at least high school, so I have hope.

      • By trey-jones 2024-06-1320:481 reply

        Like the other commenter in this thread who says "... not social suicide ..." I would suggest just implementing the rules yourself regardless of what society is doing. The trend (as you can imagine) is definitely still going younger and younger. And unless you have the funds to fight off the marketing teams of Google and Apple, I imagine that will continue.

        My kids are fine. Even with their parents fighting tooth and nail to keep them off devices as much as possible, they will still be on them sometimes (in your home or out of it). Maybe my kids are just weird to not be craving social media - just being able to send text messages to her friends seems to be enough for my 14 year old currently. Is that the same thing? My observations say "definitely not".

        They complain about it sometimes, (and I complain about their usage sometimes) but nobody is really angry and everybody is really reasonable. Your mileage may vary.

        • By inglor_cz 2024-06-1321:02

          "My kids are fine." ... "Your mileage may vary."

          It almost certainly does. People are wildly different in their susceptibility to alcohol, gambling etc. We should expect the same wild variability when it comes to social networks.

      • By dyauspitr 2024-06-143:22

        In the same situation, I really hope so too.

    • By hot_gril 2024-06-1320:428 reply

      It's not social suicide for a kid or teen not to have a smartphone (or to limit usage), so it's solvable individually.

      • By lynndotpy 2024-06-1321:224 reply

        My social life suffered greatly being one of the only kids in my highschool without a cellphone. This was the early 2010s in the United States.

        Imagine being a teenager and trying to include someone lacking a cellphone to your social group. It adds a huge amount of friction.

        Including someone without a cellphone means you give up the ability to be spontaneous (assuming the kid needs to adhere to an agreed-upon schedule to be picked up by a parent), and trivial things become a literal telephone-game ordeal.

        It also means almost invariably that the kid is relying on a friend's phone to communicate parents / a ride, unless that kid is so privileged as to own their own car.

        Could you imagine if every time you hung out with a friend, they asked to borrow your phone, open Facebook Messenger (or whatever sensitive messaging app you use), and to contact a parent?

        It also means the kid isn't included in group chats, which means they just aren't part of conversations other kids are having. You can't have a rich social life with someone you can only talk to in classes you share and for 20 minutes during lunch break.

        The "green bubble" phenomenon is bad enough as it is. I don't like it, but for all practical reasons, owning a cellphone is necessary for a kids social life in the United States.

        • By euroderf 2024-06-1321:491 reply

          > Could you imagine if every time you hung out with a friend, they asked to borrow your phone, open Facebook Messenger (or whatever sensitive messaging app you use), and to contact a parent?

          What if the parent could handle such eventualities - based on trust in the child - with no freaking out ?

          • By lynndotpy 2024-06-140:442 reply

            I'm not sure what you mean.

            The point of this quotation is that a cell phone is a very personal thing. It's anxiety inducing and burdensome to hand over your cellphone to someone.

            And that's not the mention the power dynamic between the kids with the cellphone and the kid without.

            • By euroderf 2024-06-146:011 reply

              Sorry for ambiguity. What I meant is, what if the parent trusts the kid to do the right thing, and so the kid does not have to call in to the parent for an okay to hang out with a friend ?

              This kind of independence might be a social plus for a kid. Something like "I don't need a phone cos I can go where I want until dinnertime". No helicopter parenting.

              • By lynndotpy 2024-06-1415:50

                This only works if the kid lives somewhere with robust public transportation between their and their friends houses, or if they own their own vehicle.

                Assuming neither, they're probably getting picked up and dropped off by a parent or other family member, with dropoff/pickup schedules arranged in advance.

                It's less, "I don't need a phone cos I can go where I want until dinnertime," and more, "My mom will be driving 25 minutes to pick me up at 4PM, and my friends spontaneously decided to go bowling. I can only ask her when she gets here, but that would mean she needs to drive another hour and fifteen minutes."

            • By ruszki 2024-06-146:392 reply

              It sounds bad for me to be anxious, when friends use each other’s phones. Why should I be anxious?

              • By lynndotpy 2024-06-1415:51

                It is common for people including teenagers to use phones for personal and private things, like internet searches and private messages to other friends.

              • By antifa 2024-06-1416:53

                I can imagine someone who doesn't have their own phone being clumsy (or careless) and accidently dropping it and breaking the screen.

        • By olddustytrail 2024-06-1321:562 reply

          What an appalling, broken social life you want to condemn children to.

          I grew up before smartphones and I spoke to people around my own age. I arranged my own travel without parents checking in on me. Bullying assholes didn't need groups to amplify their message which was a good thing.

          How are things better now exactly?

          • By lynndotpy 2024-06-140:43

            Good for you.

            I'm describing how things are, not how I want things to be.

          • By WheatMillington 2024-06-143:12

            OP's comment has nothing to do with what he "wants" for his kids.

        • By hot_gril 2024-06-1321:27

          I agree that a cellphone for call/text only is important. I had one too. If you need blue bubbles nowadays, fine, handmedown iPhone with parental controls will do that.

      • By jader201 2024-06-1320:462 reply

        Curious, do you have teens? Most people saying things like this don't, but if you do, curious if you've tried this and it works/ed out for you?

        • By MisterTea 2024-06-1321:461 reply

          Two years ago a coworker became the parent to a teen overnight after his wife's son moved in with them as the sons father booted him to make room for a new wife and kid. Of course this comes with behavioral problems, nothing serious just being rebellious and doesn't listen and the mother levies punishment as needed. Of course kids think they are slick but unfortunately for him his new stepfather is technologically very literate. So every few weeks I hear a new tale of angsty teen son vs parents.

          Today he told me the son was banned from phone use for two weeks as a punishment for something. Son hands the phone to the mother last night but she doesn't look at the phone. He asks her to check the phone screen and wouldn't you know - it was missing its sim card. Kid sim swapped to an old phone a friend gave him. Didn't work, mother confiscated his sim card. WiFi? Well the Unifi system he has setup in his house has a separate ssid for the stepson and his gadgets that gets shut off after 10PM on school nights and if he is punished, remains off until the sanctions are lifted. Kid is blacked out on personal devices but is still allowed to - watch TV if he is done with homework or go out with friends in meat space with strict curfew.

          The son deals with it because he has no other choice. And I have heard no complaints that he is dying a social death. Just stick to your guns and show them who is in charge - you, the parent.

          • By caddemon 2024-06-1321:59

            Taking away the phone for 2 weeks is different than never having a phone for the entirety of high school though.

        • By hot_gril 2024-06-1320:461 reply

          It worked when I was a teen (not very long ago) and nearly everyone else had smartphones. I think the people who consider it social suicide are unconvinced that smartphones are a problem to begin with, which like I said is fine if they want that.

          • By bluSCALE4 2024-06-1320:492 reply

            Were you popular? I feel like social dynamics must play a role. I mean I'm pretty sure blue vs green bubbles are a big deal in some circles let alone social media.

            • By hot_gril 2024-06-1320:562 reply

              Moderately, or at least, not socially dead. Only played video games on weekends, including a Minecraft server with friends, which in hindsight still became a bit of an addiction I would've been better without. I was popular in college, and I did have a phone then but barely used it. Having a Facebook account mattered in college purely for class groups, events, and group chats where people coordinated stuff. One thing I don't know is what replaced that (if anything).

              So basically, having a PC at home was more than enough.

              • By jader201 2024-06-1321:331 reply

                Another factor is how long ago we’re talking, too. 2024 is quite a bit different vs., for example, 10 years ago.

                • By hot_gril 2024-06-1321:50

                  HS was 10 years ago, college was after. Since 7th grade, most kids had smartphones and were using them all hours of the day. Most people used Facebook, and by hs Minecraft was huge. What changed, aside from old games/platforms getting replaced?

              • By jprete 2024-06-1321:391 reply

                I've heard Insta has a bunch of stuff that can replace FB's remaining uses (not just photo sharing, events and such) but I've never gotten into it so don't really know.

                • By hot_gril 2024-06-1322:16

                  IG doesn't seem to have the equivalent. Events for instance, https://help.instagram.com/448430800019943 says "This feature is only available to professional accounts on Instagram."

                  Just checked, I'm still in the largest school-wide FB group from college. It ceased posting in 2019 despite technically having over 100K members still. Gonna assume FB groups aren't a thing anymore and it's moved to Discord, but I'm still curious.

            • By stanford_labrat 2024-06-1321:131 reply

              n=1 but i didn't have a smartphone until halfway through senior year of hs (2013-2014) whereas most of my peers had one from 2010 onwards. i wouldn't say socially stunted but popularity wise i would say not a full member of the social groups i was tangentially in, not in any group chats, etc.

              deep 1-1 connections for the most part because yeah i was texting and messaging people but other than that...i think it's probably only worse now. there are group chats/discords for each social group probably and not having a smartphone would mean you can't participate.

              • By simonw 2024-06-1321:161 reply

                I'm willing to bet that social dynamics around phones at high school in 2024 are markedly different from 2014.

                • By stanford_labrat 2024-06-1321:19

                  yeah i agree, if it wasn't clear what i meant to say was that i functionally didn't have a smartphone until high school was over, and as a result i think i was socially excluded from a lot of things - the social groups from hs seem to have survived college (which may be a quirk of my specific hs) whereas i only talk to two people who i was deeply close with.

                  and i think it's even worse now.

      • By nineplay 2024-06-1320:522 reply

        'social suicide' is a vague term but my daughter has been spending a fair amount of this summer break texting groups of friends and/or playing online multi-player games with friends. Nothing good would come of my taking away her phone.

        • By hot_gril 2024-06-1321:153 reply

          Idk how to say this exactly, but one thing I've learned from playing online MP games is that people aren't socializing on them, they're just being antisocial as a group.

          • By nineplay 2024-06-1321:182 reply

            I'm sure it varies. The peals of laughter coming from her room suggest her experience is different.

            • By hot_gril 2024-06-1321:241 reply

              It depends on whether the laughter is about the game itself or some personal experience a friend has shared over VC. Cause the loudest room on our dorm floor was always the League+Melee room, and it wasn't cause they were sharing funny stories, it was because Falcon did a moonwalk short-hop reverse-knee fast-fall L-cancel.

              • By nineplay 2024-06-1321:30

                They are laughing because someone got killed by Glitch. Fortunately I do have conversations with my kid.

            • By randomdata 2024-06-1321:20

              I laugh at the funny HN comments. It is still a solitary activity.

          • By Spivak 2024-06-1321:421 reply

            That's a function of the games you play. Online games are a 3rd space for hanging out with your friends. Like sure if all you're doing is joining public matches on CoD or whatever then yeah it's pretty antisocial but hoping on Discord with your friends and playing Minecraft / Roblox / Fortnite / the current meme game de jour then it's a great time. My friends and I currently have a long-running game of Don't Starve Together going.

            And it's one of the few activities you can do with friends when you're stuck home on a school night.

            • By hot_gril 2024-06-1322:211 reply

              Oh our main thing was Minecraft. Must be the longest running popular video game ever.

              • By hammyhavoc 2024-06-1417:05

                Minecraft isn't even close to World of Warcraft. Several times the billions and been around since 2004.

          • By lovethevoid 2024-06-1321:451 reply

            This really isn't the case anymore. People are socializing in Valorant, they're socializing in Lethal Company, they're socializing in Roblox. Very little of this "antisocial in a group" stuff, which I assume you're mostly referencing to stuff like COD players screaming in mic at others (but mostly themselves), mostly because there are now better tools to detect and ban those participating in such.

            They've really become digital third places, especially when IRL third places have been overly monetized or destroyed.

            • By hot_gril 2024-06-1321:521 reply

              I was the Minecraft server admin of my high school, csgo was big in college, I know how it is. Not referring to public matches like CoD. Just cause we were unaliving mobs and building stuff together doesn't mean we were socializing.

              • By lovethevoid 2024-06-140:30

                It doesn't, but many people do socialize in current games rather than just mindlessly unaliving mobs.

        • By wonderwonder 2024-06-1320:571 reply

          yeah, I limit video game time for my kids but don't take it away as that's how they play with their friends currently. So outside time and sports during the day and I let them have game time with friends after dinner. Seems to be a good balance

          • By nineplay 2024-06-1321:271 reply

            It obviously depends on circumstance - she doesn't have endless phone time but it's summer and this week she has few other plans.

            I don't wish her only social interaction to be on her phone but the fact remains that if I took it away forever it would mostly impact her ability to play with her friends. I don't personally believe that it would be good for her mental health.

            • By wonderwonder 2024-06-1321:57

              Yup, I agree. Kids need to be able to talk with friends. Especially over summer when they cant always see them in person at school. I have zero issues with phones, its just the social media apps I am against.

              My kids have a Facetime video chat they all jump on while they game so they can see each other and talk, pretty great actually.

      • By dyauspitr 2024-06-143:27

        I would spend long hours talking to my friends on the landline growing up. These helped form deep relationships that were pretty much (atleast for me) impossible to make in the limited amount of time you met them at school. I presume something similar happens around cellphones where you miss out on a lot of discussions and have no context for a lot of the conversations that happen the next day. They really need to be collectively banned, it’s not possible to solve this at an individual level.

      • By OJFord 2024-06-1320:542 reply

        That is nonsense, I was at school with mobile phones before the iPhone (before touchscreens, non-Java-applet apps, 3G, etc.) and it absolutely would've been even then. I mean maybe you'd have gotten away with it being active on MSN, but it'd have been a problem for sure (you arrange to meet someone and then just go there and hope they show up at the right time and don't want to change plans?) and I think far more so today without even considering social media like Instagram & TikTok & whatever that 'everyone' is using.

        (They weren't allowed actually at school though, weren't even supposed to be in your locker, so I always think it's a bit weird when it occasionally pops up debate about banning them from schools or that X school has banned them - curious when and why they allowed them, or maybe they were just always allowed to begin with?)

        • By tanseydavid 2024-06-1321:253 reply

          >> then just go there and hope they show up at the right time and don't want to change plans

          Why make plans in the first place then? Changing plans at the last minute is really inconsiderate behavior.

          • By OJFord 2024-06-1321:32

            Because you're 12 or whatever and do have a phone and so-and-so just texted that everyone (omg, right) is actually going to be down by the river instead, are you coming?

            Of course you are, but tanseydavid thinks he's meeting you in town and doesn't have a phone...

          • By hot_gril 2024-06-1321:351 reply

            Teens don't plan things this way. It's more like, a few are together somewhere, someone is coming late, and the group is a moving target.

            • By OJFord 2024-06-1321:42

              I'm only just old enough for it, but before mobile phones (I mean, they existed, but we were schoolchildren not businesspeople, before small relatively cheap Nokias I suppose) we'd 'call on' people to see if they were in and if so did they want to do whatever/go wherever... Thinking about it now, I think mobiles probably had quite a role in changing that: we got phones and then just started texting (hey wuu2 do u wnt 2 go in2 town l8r) instead.

              I imagine now it's just straight to the latter, (albeit with less txt spk and more memes & emoji) because children get phones and start making their own plans at about the same age. (And not by coincidence probably - they're arranging to meet friends and going out alone, so parent wants to be able to contact them, to stay in the loop, etc.)

          • By em-bee 2024-06-1512:38

            its called spontaneity, and that's a healthy thing.

            if you find out about something interesting that you didn't know before, why should you not be able to change your plans to go see or do it?

            hey, i just got some free tickets for that show, so how about we cancel dinner and go there?

        • By hot_gril 2024-06-1321:02

          Regular dumb phones were useful then and are still useful, just for coordinating. Smartphone is a superset of a GameBoy Advance now. Literally kids in my school were emulating GBA on their iPhones. There are in-betweens nowadays like a smartphone with parental controls.

      • By hollow-moe 2024-06-1320:47

        obviously unaware about today's youth

      • By prettyStandard 2024-06-1320:461 reply

        Says the hot gril...

        ...Seriously I have a hard time seeing it your way. Can you elaborate on your rational? Change my mind?

        • By hot_gril 2024-06-1320:52

          No. No I don't think I will.

      • By complaintdept 2024-06-1320:472 reply

        It's practically considered child abuse these days to not give them a smartphone. I'm only slightly exaggerating. I think kids would be better off without them altogether.

        • By shiroiushi 2024-06-146:28

          Having a way to call for help or contact parents is immensely useful, even if it didn't exist when you were young. (Also, when you were young, there were probably pay phones, but those are gone now.)

          Smartphones have many other very useful functions.

          The real problem is social media.

        • By nonrandomstring 2024-06-1320:493 reply

          What? Giving them the phone. Or not giving them the phone?

    • By nashadelic 2024-06-1320:523 reply

      I'm not so sure. I see my 10-year-old daughter use her iPad and its very constructive, she's on screen sharing/video with her friends quite a lot, its healthy socialization. I imagine it becomes a problem when the child can't regulate their usage. But that's where we can use screentime and parental controls.

      • By ricardobeat 2024-06-1321:31

        All it takes is one fateful string of recommended videos, access to Instagram (“everyone from school is on it!”) and things change in a heartbeat.

      • By 31337Logic 2024-06-1321:01

        > ... it becomes a problem when the child can't regulate their usage.

        That's now every child. Also, that was very much an intentionally designed effect -- it's no secret. Let that sink in. Your 10 year old is up against multi billion dollar companies who control the very tools you want to use to curb her addiction? (No, she is... We all are.)

      • By HenryBemis 2024-06-1321:04

        Doing math on Matific is great (or similar activities). It's the exposure to Social Media that is the cesspool of the internet, where the kids are open to receive messages from anyone and everyone, and have the algorithm showing them every garbage under the sun.

        People forget that the purpose of Social Media is to spend more and more time. "User Engagement" is the key.

    • By kyletns 2024-06-1321:20

      Legislation is absolutely happening! Check it: https://www.compactmag.com/article/ending-big-techs-child-ex...

    • By wonderwonder 2024-06-1320:471 reply

      social media ban for kids goes into effect in Florida in 2025.

      I already forbid my kids from using any social network.

      They can use youtube with supervision.

      Social media is poison for young minds. Older minds too but thats another issue.

    • By jay_kyburz 2024-06-1321:19

      Here in my local state we banned all phones at school!

      Everybody I've spoken to thinks its a great idea. Even the kids. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-06/mobile-phone-ban-canb...

    • By dyauspitr 2024-06-143:17

      Yes, I really wish the law made it so that anyone under at least 16 (but ideally 18) is banned from using a smartphone. There’s no reason parents should have to be the “bad guy” in millions of homes across the US, we should just be able to say it’s against the law.

    • By acchow 2024-06-1321:12

      The parents that actually care need to get together and decide collectively on timeframes for phone use so the kids can text/social with time limits. Then enforce it with on-device parental controls.

      Maybe 45 minutes before school each morning and 1 hour the evening or something.

    • By slothtrop 2024-06-1321:06

      Consider what those who aren't glued to the phone are actually missing out on. More than ever, kids are choosing not to go out and spend time with friends, instead doomscrolling, binge-watch tv and chat on instagram or whatever. That's not a bristling social life, but it does behave as a surrogate for one.

      When kids hang outside of school, as was always the case, they usually live nearby. Notwithstanding that dumbphones and managed social media use are options, unless you think teens are all monsters (which would not be solved by phones anyway), it's not a lord of the flies situation of shunning people without phones.

      I think there's a culture of inactive shut ins and we're acting like this should be cause for FOMO. I expect kids would be happier if they actually physically see some friends more regularly anyway.

    • By turtlebits 2024-06-1323:09

      What do we do? Treat it as any potentially dangerous tool that you let (not give) your child use.

      Learn safety, responsible usage and set limits. Let them demonstrate they can handle it before unattended use.

    • By HelixEndeavor 2024-06-1320:55

      If we're to pass any sort of legislation, it shouldn't be against the kids, they're the victims of exploitation by greedy monopoly/oligopoly algorithms, we should legislate against companies like Meta, Snapchat, etc. the TikTok ban unless they sold off to an American firm that could be subject to US legislation was actually not the worst idea in the world (albeit I highly doubt the current Congress would've actually done anything constructive after the theoretical sale)

    • By brnt 2024-06-144:39

      > Banning phone use on an individual basis is a recipe for social suicide.

      Is it really? Or is this one of those irrational fears?

    • By mentos 2024-06-1320:471 reply

      I asked this question in a thread a few days ago and got downvoted. I’d probably have better luck preaching sobriety in a bar ha but I really think society needs to wake up to the toxicity of technology much like we did cigarettes.

      • By hn_throwaway_99 2024-06-1321:04

        > I really think society needs to wake up to the toxicity of technology much like we did cigarettes.

        That's why I'm pretty wary of some other comments along the lines of "you just need to teach your children to think of phones as tools and regulate their screen time". I feel that's like telling kids "You just need to keep it to 3 or 4 cigarettes a day."

        Sure, some kids may do OK with this (I happen to think they're really in the minority), but social media is fundamentally designed to addict people. That is literally the goal of social media companies. So I'm just a bit dubious that kids, especially young kids e.g. in middle school, have the ability to regulate that.

    • By planestrainsaut 2024-06-1321:05

      [dead]

    • By treflop 2024-06-1321:211 reply

      I think a lack of self-confidence and a lack of a strong group of friends is the actual issue here.

      If you have both, your friends are always there to let you know how much you are loved.

      • By kyletns 2024-06-1321:34

        Soooo you just don't think that phones (with social media apps) are addictive and harmful for kids? The research on this is pretty clear.

  • By yedava 2024-06-1320:474 reply

    If all the kids in the peer group have no cell phones, solving the mental health crisis would be easy. As long as some kids have access, the others will feel like they are being deprived of something fundamental, will resent their parents and will look for any opportunity to get on social media.

    A technological solution is to have complete control over the computing devices we "own". But that goes against the interests of trillion dollar corporations and so we can't have that.

    Like I was figuring out if there is a way to let my kid use Youtube with a select set of channels, but no. Youtube needs to keep showing suggestions on what to watch next. I would gladly pay for the ability to control what content my kid sees, but Youtube stands to make more profit by getting the kid addicted to their app.

    • By armchairhacker 2024-06-1323:27

      It's not just that. Some kids live in unsafe or car-centric areas, with parents who are uncaring or unable to take them to places where they can socialize in-person. Every kid goes to school, but maybe the kids at school bully them, or maybe the school is too focused on coursework and doesn't dedicate enough time for socialization, or maybe the kid is home-schooled. Especially if a ban were enacted today, some kids spent most of their life on social media, so they might have trouble adapting and socializing in-person.

      Personally, I think the most likely and best solution is better social media. Currently, social media is regulated to shield kids from explicit content and predators, but it should also be regulated to shield them from negativity and mindless engagement, and to promote positivity and healthy behaviors (including not spending too much time on it). Recommendation algorithms for kids should be strictly controlled by the government; keep in mind that the government already strictly controls what kids learn in school, and it doesn't have to outright ban "non-explicit harmful" content, just down-weight it enough that kids don't find it without intentionally looking. Plus, a social media with healthier recommendations and discourse may become popular for adults as well, even though they wouldn't be locked into this version like minors (I can imagine a system that requires consent like adult ID but then lets adults stay anonymous, which could be bypassed by dedicated minors, but most wouldn't care enough to do so).

    • By somethingreen 2024-06-1322:23

      I don't know from where came this idea that not having a certain thing will inevitably ruin child's relationship with the parent and cause a collapse of at least some part of their life, but if it was implanted - someone somewhere should have a pure gold Marketer of The Century award on their table.

      Also, install Unhook Youtube - it allows reducing YT to pretty much just subscriptions and watch later.

    • By walterbell 2024-06-1320:56

      Apple iOS 18 Safari is going to allow "AI" customization of any website, that might allow removal of the recommendations panel.

      Another option might be a custom Youtube frontend or browser extension for filtering.

    • By prirai 2024-06-144:44

      You can use Newpipe (it's open source), and there you may simply subscribe to the channels you want the kid to watch and they'll only watch those channels. There's nothing as home screen there but the kid can still search for a video using a query so it might just be the solution you are looking for.

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