Why I don't discuss politics with friends

2025-04-0218:145271039shwin.co

March 2025

March 2025

For as much as I enjoy analyzing politics[1], I'm even more against discussing it with friends. This policy arose from three patterns observed over the years:

  1. Most people don't have political views, they have political tribes
  2. Developing the political reasoning skills to graduate from tribes to views is incredibly difficult

and the kicker:

  1. Most people don't want to graduate from tribes to views

Often when someone asks "who did you vote for", what they're actually doing is verifying your adherence to group culture, like a congregation member asking "you believe in god, right?" loudly in church.

The insidious nature of this question comes from the false representation as earnest, intellectual discourse. Many who ask it may truly believe they’re engaging earnestly, but their responses quickly reveal an angle more akin to religious police.

Most vulnerable to this behavior are the intellectually honest + socially clueless, who engage in good faith, unaware of the pending social ambush.

Why does this happen?

I think there are two main reasons, the first being the sheer intellectual difficulty of crafting an informed political view leads people to tribalism out of convenience.

To have an informed view on any given issue, one needs to:

  1. understand economics, game theory, philosophy, sales, business, military strategy, geopolitics, sociology, history, and more
  2. be able to understand and empathize with the various (and often opposing) groups involved in a topic
  3. detect and ignore their own bias

How can you prioritize limited resources with deadly consequences without understanding utilitarianism vs deontology (i.e. the trolly problem)?

Understand China-US relations without understanding communism vs capitalism, the fear of tyranny vs the threat of invasion, or how and where computer chips are made?

How military power dictates realities, economies affect happiness, or how frivolous lawsuits can protect consumers? How companies are built, how elections are won, or the role nuclear families and 30-year fixed mortgages play in America?

And even with all this knowledge, can you empathize with both sides of common issues -- the poor renter vs struggling landlord? The tired worker vs underwater business owner? Rich vs poor, immigrant vs legacy, parent vs child -- the list goes on

Each side has both villains and victims. Both landlords and renters can be perpetrators and innocent. Both workers and business owners can be exploited and stolen from.

Yet most people can only identify with one narrative, usually one they've experienced or have a connection to. To acquire, then properly apply this knowledge while honestly detecting your own bias is such an undertaking it's no wonder I only know one or two people capable of it[2].

So it's no surprise humans resort to what’s worked for thousands of years: find our tribe and rep their beliefs, hard.[3]

[1] I only consider myself moderately into politics, and slightly more into reasoning, if more from a practical sense than a formal one

[2] While it's usually people with significant life experience through business or intense study, I've been pleasantly surprised by friends who've seemed to develop this ability without either of those things

[3] A reader might fairly ask what my tribe is. I'm not sure. A friend and I theorized one reason I might be more tribalism-allergic than others is due to a lack of tribe. Being quite culturally American while ethnically Indian, there isn't really a place in the world I can go where I fit in. In India I'm seen as American, in America I'm seen as Indian -- and it's perhaps this lack of tribe that's contributed to this viewpoint.

[4] One theory I have for this is reduced practice in critical thinking. As we get older, unless your job requires it in particular or you regularly switch industries, many roles are just pattern-based rinse and repeat. The other explanation is the community/identity that I cover later

[5] Note, there are other reasons people stick with tribalism, such as playing status games -- but this seems derivative of the community/identity angle

[6] Interestingly, I've noticed people who demonstrate this sort of political tribalism also tend to be big sports fans -- which could make sense if you view it as a form of regularly practiced tribalism.

[7] Worth noting, however, that knowingly choosing a false belief essentially makes ignorance a value, something I understand but personally can’t accept

[8] Few things give me greater joy than a discovery-ridden conversation with smart friends, and this is only enhanced if I learn something I previously believed to be true is actually wrong. Seriously, come prove some core belief I have as wrong and you will quite literally make my week.

[9] Fully understanding I can be the one in the wrong -- however, when this is the case, the person explaining is usually able to:

  1. understand my argument
  2. convey their disagreement in good faith without circular reasoning or rhetorical tricks

[10] In general, I find writing is a much more intellectually honest medium than verbal discussion. Unless both debaters are skilled and intentionally trying for honest debate; the lack of record, tonality, and audience quickly devolve a conversation into the he-said-she-said, gaslighting, fallacy-ridden spectacle we see in presidential debates. But writing offers a reprieve: an idea can be articulated fully, without interruption, can be referenced and re-read. Indeed, writing seems to be the bane of gaslighters and ideologues and the bastion of the intellectually curious.

[11] I do think some small percentage people genuinely want to be truth-seeking but just lack the ability to detect their own bias. It’s these I hope this essay inspires to put the effort into learning, but spotting these among the tribalists I find hard.

[12] At 23 I quit my job, fed up with the bay, and bought a one-way ticket to Australia. After meeting my wife there and moving back, I did it yet again by explicitly taking a job in San Diego.

[13] Not a reference to the book, which I haven’t read — this is just a phrase I use

[14] I encourage everyone to learn poker to a level where they're assigning probabilities to see this system in direct action. Tribalists will often deal in absolutes: "he's 100% gonna fail", "she's doing it because she's evil", "housing always goes up". But you'll notice they rarely put their money where their mouth is.

[15] Many people will make the post-modernist argument "there is no objective truth". I strongly disagree. If you're reading this post, that means you're using technology built on objective truth. You're only alive because your ancestors sought out objective truth to find food and survive. Yes, there are many instances where the only accounts of an incident are heavily biased, but that does not mean objective truth doesn't exist. Some actions were taken, with some combination of intentions at the time -- even if we can't realistically discover them, acknowledging their existence, and pursuing them with probabilistic guesses, is much more honest than just throwing our hands up and saying "everyone is correct" or just picking the one we like best.

[16] This is based on my favorite method for fixing mistakes in sports, over-correcting. if I'm hitting too far left, I try and make the "opposite" mistake by hitting too far right. Then it's just a matter of honing in, or "oscillating" until I'm dialed in. In my experience the same works for reasoning.

[17] Another favorite line from Paul Graham’s “Two Kinds of Moderate”


Read the original article

Comments

  • By rebeccaskinner 2025-04-0316:5926 reply

    For all of the author's bloviating and self-congratulating navel gazing, the article manages to largely overlook values, the only mention of them being to dismissively reduce them to irrational tribalism.

    In truth, values and ethics are fundamental to effectively discussing politics. After all, all political decisions are ultimately about how we want to shape the world that we as humans live in. There can be no agreement about economic policy without a shared understanding of the ultimate goal of an economy. No agreement about foreign relations without a shared understanding of the role of nations as representatives for groups of humans, and how we believe one group of humans should interact with another group of humans through the lens of nations.

    For the last 20 years at least, the leadership of the two main political parties in the US have largely invested in messaging around the values that they represent. The policies are different too, but over time we've gone from a world where there were at least some cases where the two parties had different policies for how to reach the same goals, and into a world where the parties policies are aiming to realize fundamentally different visions of the world, based on fundamentally different values.

    In this world, asking "who did you vote for" isn't a matter of tribalism, but it is a (good) proxy for asking someone "what are your values". If you discover that someone has completely different values from you, then discussing policy isn't going to be useful anyway, because there's no way you'll agree on a single policy when you have different fundamental values.

    • By ryanackley 2025-04-0317:404 reply

      I consider this type of thinking to be a form of tribalism because you're essentially saying there are two tribes. Each tribe has specific values.

      A person's values are not a dichotomy (i.e. republican or democrat). You simply cannot put people into two buckets that define their overarching moral compass.

      A person can be transphobic but support abortion so they have always voted Democrat...or hate everything about Republican values except they got burned by Obamacare so they vote Republican. There is virtually an infinite level of nuance that can be a deciding factor in why someone votes for someone.

      • By JumpCrisscross 2025-04-0318:432 reply

        > person can be transphobic but support abortion so they have always voted Democrat

        The term you're looking for is political coherence, i.e. the degree to which you can predict a person's views based on knowing their view on one issue. Political elites tend to be highly coherent. If you know a Congressperson's views on guns, you probably know them on abortion and corporate taxes.

        In the real world, however, votes tend not to be politically coherent. Instead, what we see in a hyperpartisan polity, is that a diverse set of views collapses after an issue achieves partisan identity status. Talking about a thing through a partisan lens is what causes the partisan collapse. Hence the effects of mass and then social media on the quality of our discussions.

        (And I agree with OP that the author's "I'm above politics" stance is naively immature.)

        • By archon1410 2025-04-0319:222 reply

          > Political elites tend to be highly coherent

          Coherence might not the word you're looking for. The policies of political parties and groups are born out of historical circumstances and the diverse coalitions they represent. Political elites are "coherent" in the sense that you can expect them to consistently follow the party line, and thus infer all of their views just by knowing one of their views.

          The party line, i.e. platform of the Democratic and Republican parties, or any other large political party in the world, is, by itself, nothing coherent though. Many of their policies and claims do not make any more sense besides each other than they would make against each other. Realignments on issues are pretty common across the world. What is left-wing in one part of the world at one point of time might be rightist across space and time.

          • By JumpCrisscross 2025-04-040:22

            > Coherence might not the word you're looking for

            Ideological and political coherence are the terms of art [1].

            [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8827732/

          • By s1artibartfast 2025-04-0319:58

            This is a difference in the subject of coherence.

            Logical coherence refers to the variation and predictive power of the reasoning.

            Coherence can also be used to describe the variability and predictability of positions or states themselves.

            If you measure the characteristics of some photons in a coherent laser, you know what the other photons are doing. They are predictable using a model.

            Logic is a poor predictive model for politics. Tribe identification is a strong predictive model for politics

        • By shw1n 2025-04-0619:40

          > In the real world, however, votes tend not to be politically coherent. Instead, what we see in a hyperpartisan polity, is that a diverse set of views collapses after an issue achieves partisan identity status. Talking about a thing through a partisan lens is what causes the partisan collapse. Hence the effects of mass and then social media on the quality of our discussions.

          nailed it imo

          not above politics, just think productive discussion can't happen if people don't know why they support things beyond "the tribe supports it"

          or acknowledge when a belief is tribal vs reason-based

      • By Spivak 2025-04-0318:304 reply

        > transphobic but support abortion so they have always voted Democrat

        This is the NYT if you want a high-profile example of this existing in the real world.

        I worked with a guy who was a goldmine of odd but sincerely held political opinions that subverted the usual narratives. He was (I guess still is) gay but believed that trans people shouldn't serve in the military because he saw that they didn't get the treatment they needed. He wanted everyone to have guns as a protection against crooked cops-- he was from a small town. He was against single-payer healthcare because he thought the government would use it as a political weapon. He was was in theory anti-union because he thought union benefits should just be turned into labor protections for everyone instead of just being for union jobs and supported them only as a stopgap. He was pro-solar/wind and had an electric car not for any environmental reason but because he didn't want to be reliant on the greedy power company.

        • By roarcher 2025-04-0319:401 reply

          To me that just sounds like someone who arrives at his political views by thinking rather than blindly adopting whatever his peers believe. It's only odd because it's (sadly) rare these days.

          • By codyb 2025-04-0416:081 reply

            Yea, holy hell... someone with _nuance_ in their views? Blasphemy!

            • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-04-0514:54

              I will admit that this is not only accurate, but also a sad commentary on the current state of things. I know I am now actively avoiding any political discussions ( I mean, realistically, I should have before, but I do hold some opinions I wish to inflict upon others ) for very pragmatic reasons. We are semi-officially in soviet state regime, where your speech can mean your family is excluded from society. It didn't start with Trump or even with Covid, but it is absolutely enraging to see this become not only a default, but encouraged aspect of this society.

        • By trentlott 2025-04-046:371 reply

          > He was was in theory anti-union because he thought union benefits should just be turned into labor protections for everyone

          Uh, hmm. So weaker unions result in labor protections for everyone? I gotta say, doesn't seem like that's really how the U.S. is playing out. If weekends off and an 8-hour workday didn't exist they certainly wouldn't be argued for now.

          • By Jensson 2025-04-047:04

            US has very strong unions, you don't have anything close to SAG-AFTRA in Europe since such strong unions are illegal. European unions are just big, but their are reigned in by laws much more.

            So yeah I think weakening the protections unions from workers in USA enjoys would lead to more people joining them, since there is less risk in doing so. Most people don't wanna work in an industry dominated by something like the screen actors guild.

        • By GuinansEyebrows 2025-04-0318:59

          i mean, his views don't sound too odd. he sounds like a communist who's got a dim view of reform or socialism as a means to communism.

      • By ryan_lane 2025-04-041:092 reply

        You're acting as if people are saying "democrat good, republican bad" as the meaning for associating values with who someone voted for, but missing the part that you can easily associate that someone has poor values if they voted for Trump.

        Sure, you need to go a bit deeper if someone didn't vote for Trump to know their values, but voting for someone who ran on a platform of mass deportations, retaliation against his enemies, obvious idiotic economic policy, homophobia and transphobia, and racism, makes you a kind of shit person, and it's not really necessary to go any deeper to know their values don't match yours.

        • By ryanackley 2025-04-042:503 reply

          So you're saying >50% of the USA population are objectively shit people? If you're a member of the other 50%, you aren't automatically shit but you still could be?

          Seems bleak dude. Also, consider that conservative media has indoctrinated people to think like you do...except in the opposite direction. i.e. if you voted for Kamala or Biden, you're the enemy.

          • By 1659447091 2025-04-043:44

            Where are you getting >50% of the population from?

            He did not even get 50% of the votes cast for president. More people in the USA opted out of voting for him than to vote for him.

          • By ryan_lane 2025-04-044:211 reply

            MAGA isn't 50% of the population. Voter turnout was 63.7% for 2024, so I'm saying that ~32% of the USA population are objectively shit people, in the same way that Germans who supported Hitler were objectively shit people.

            If you can't see that disappearing people without due process is wrong, you don't have good values. If you can't see that pardoning conmen, and insurrectionists is wrong, you don't have good values. If you can't see the use of Venezuelan prisons and Guantanamo Bay as extralegal black sites as wrong, you don't have good values. If you can't see that a president illegally ignoring the courts and congress is wrong, you don't have good values.

            You could say that some of the other stuff that's happening is just an extension of the culture war, and that it's a matter of interpretation of whether it's wrong or not (DEI hate, transgender issues, abortion rights, etc). I don't agree, but those topics are harder to give a black and white answer on whether it's wrong or right.

            Clear violations of the constitution, ignoring basic human rights, and doing straight up crime are black and white issues, and in general, most Trump voters support these things, and these are things he campaigned on, so even if they disagree with them now, they voted to allow it to happen.

            • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-04-0514:561 reply

              Even if true, the point OP was making that you are dismissing their political stance for no other reason than your disagreement with it. It does not make for a useful, productive.. or any kind of conversation that results in some sort of mutually agreeable state.

              • By ryan_lane 2025-04-060:361 reply

                Yeah, it's OK to disagree with people who agree with a political stance that involves depriving people of their rights, to the point of sending people to violent work camps and refusing to bring people back even when it's found that they're innocent. This isn't the kind of situation we "meet in the middle".

                I'm not tolerant of intolerance, I'm not OK with hate, and you shouldn't be either.

                • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-04-0611:022 reply

                  I truly do wish we could move a little past bumper sticker conversations, because it is HN. The guidelines of the site do expect more from all of us when we post. Still, allow me to address what you wrote.

                  << This isn't the kind of situation we "meet in the middle".

                  Then we are out of words and are unable to communicate further. What does that accomplish? What do you think happens when people stop talking? I would like you to think this through before reflexively answering. On this forum, I semi-consistently argue for at least trying to reach out to the other party before talking stops.

                  << I'm not tolerant of intolerance,

                  In very simple terms, you are just intolerant. You just gave yourself a permission to hate ( because your hate is so totally different from their kind of hate ). On the off-chance sarcasm was not obvious, it is not some sort of neat trick or get out of jail card, because there is some level of social permission for this.

                  << it's OK to disagree with people who agree with a political stance that involves depriving people of their rights, to the point of sending people to violent work camps and refusing to bring people back even when it's found that they're innocent.

                  Friend, it is always ok to disagree. There is no need to qualify it. Unless I am not reading your post right, let me ask you a simple question:

                  'When is it not ok to disagree?'

                  • By ryan_lane 2025-04-070:191 reply

                    > In very simple terms, you are just intolerant. You just gave yourself a permission to hate ( because your hate is so totally different from their kind of hate ). On the off-chance sarcasm was not obvious, it is not some sort of neat trick or get out of jail card, because there is some level of social permission for this.

                    Yeah, I'm OK hating people who want to imprison/kill people for being born a particular way. You can change the way you think, they can't change the way they were born.

                    > Friend,

                    You're not my friend.

                    > Then we are out of words and are unable to communicate further. What does that accomplish?

                    We don't need to debate concepts like "should we send people to labor camps, without due process". Engaging people who think this way simply helps spread their ideas, and their ideas are a cancer.

                    Saying this community is debating these things because we believe in curiosity is just an excuse to allow fascists in our midsts without feeling guilt about it. If you have a bar and let nazis hang out, you're a nazi bar.

                    > 'When is it not ok to disagree?'

                    If your disagreement is about whether someone should be allowed to exist because of the way they were born, then it's not OK to disagree.

                    I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't exist. I'm suggesting that we, as a community, shouldn't allow you to participate in debate, because it simply helps spread your hate, and it makes the community as a whole worse to allow you to participate.

                    • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-04-071:31

                      << You're not my friend.

                      Shame, I personally have no ill-will towards you.

                      << I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't exist. I'm suggesting that we, as a community, shouldn't allow you to participate in debate, because it simply helps spread your hate, and it makes the community as a whole worse to allow you to participate.

                      I suppose it is helpful that you are so open about it, but, ngl, you are making a solid argument to not bother. Not exactly a recipe for kumbaya future, I must say.

                      << If you have a bar and let nazis hang out, you're a nazi bar.

                      I will ask the question in good faith, because I saw this phrase pop up before followed by rather complete lack of understanding of what some words actually mean. Can you define what a nazi is?

                      << If your disagreement is about whether someone should be allowed to exist because of the way they were born, then it's not OK to disagree.

                      Mkay. Lets test that definition a little. Must aborted fetuses be allowed to exist? Yes, I am setting you up a little bit, but I am now genuinely curious if you are gonna go for born part or attempt to dismantle the argument in a different way.

                  • By samtheDamned 2025-04-0620:411 reply

                    > because your hate is so totally different from their kind of hate

                    I just want to suggest that there may be a difference between hating a person for something they were born with, or for an uncontrollable feature of a person, compared to hating someone for explicit choices they have made.

                    Not saying that hating people for any reason is necessarily okay, but I think an argument can be made that there is a difference between those two cases of hatred.

                    • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-04-0622:421 reply

                      And what if the person if mentally on the severely disabled end of the spectrum? They still made a choice based on your distinction and it is hardly a given that they were born with it. As always, the drawing lines makes the difference ( and naturally adds a focus on people drawing the lines ).

                      FWIW, I do get what you are trying to say, but I am not sure you considered the other side of the equation.

                      • By ryan_lane 2025-04-070:21

                        Autism isn't an excuse for hate, and folks on the spectrum don't like this argument, because it portrays them as being unable to have any control over their thought.

          • By watwut 2025-04-047:00

            > Also, consider that conservative media has indoctrinated people to think like you do...except in the opposite direction.

            I came to similar conclusion by reading conservative media. NOT by reading mainstream media that forever excuse, rationalize and sanitize what is going on among conservatives.

            Also, note that he did not just said "they are enemy". He listed actual positions these people demonstrably have. All you have to do is to ... listen to what they say. Oh, and I also tell you some stuff they want for gender relations: they want women completely dependent on men economically, spousal abuse to be an accepted price for keeping families together.

            The person you are responded to described really existing value differences. Musks "empathy is weakness" is not some kind of outlier claim, it is something conservatives were pushing on for years already. Especially in its far right circles. Likewise the Trumps "truth does not matter" philosophy.

        • By kernal 2025-04-0417:56

          You could also say that someone who voted for the illegal importation of millions of criminals and murderers, targeted conservatives, used law fare to try and imprison a former president, committed astronomical financial fraud and persons responsible for the deaths caused by these criminal aliens is a shit person who needs to serve the remainder of his pathetic life in prison.

      • By calf 2025-04-0318:36

        Tribalism is just bad sociology, that's where the nuance is missing.

    • By MetaWhirledPeas 2025-04-0319:518 reply

      > the parties policies are aiming to realize fundamentally different visions of the world, based on fundamentally different values

      This is an incorrect and cynical statement. I understand why you feel this way (for one thing, it's the exact type of language coming out of many of each party's idealists) but it's simply false.

      One party supports gun rights while the other supports gun control. Those aren't values. Democrats want to pursue safety from guns. Republicans want to pursue safety from tyranny. Both sides care about personal safety.

      Abortion rights is about personal liberty. Gun rights are also about personal liberty. Both sides care about personal liberty.

      The competing talking points aren't always conveniently about the same issue though. For Democrats their border policies are about compassion and human rights. For Republicans their border policies are about domestic prosperity.

      Do Republicans care about human rights? Yes. Do Democrats care about domestic prosperity? Yes. To pretend otherwise is to willfully push apart the tribes in your own mind, and to trivialize the perspective of the opposition.

      The real problem is the one you are contributing to: the unwillingness to empathize. Empathy is the only way to come to a compromise. With a little empathy you might even find that you have to compromise less because you might actually convince someone of your argument, for once.

      • By daanlo 2025-04-0320:192 reply

        Imho opinion, what you are describing are republicans of the past. As parent says, there used to be shared values. Two of the shared valued were peaceful transition of power and respect for the rule of law / division of power between executive, legislative and judiciary.

        Imho the values of MAGA republicans are clearly distinct from GWB republicans (even if it may be precisely the same voters). Specifically the two values described above are no longer shared values.

        I believe there are more, but for the two values above we have irrevocable proof.

        • By MetaWhirledPeas 2025-04-0321:301 reply

          > what you are describing are republicans of the past

          I know it seems that way but it has always seemed that way. Republicans talk about Democrats of the past (southern Democrats). Democrats talk about Republicans of the past (Lincoln). This feeling isn't new.

          > Two of the shared valued were peaceful transition of power and respect for the rule of law / division of power between executive, legislative and judiciary.

          Re: peaceful transition of power the Republicans insist (whether true or not) that January 6th was peaceful. The value is still there. Re: the rule of law, Republicans claim they are abiding by the law. (Are they not?) The value is still there. Division of power is certainly coming under question with the actions of DOGE, but I don't think the mere existence of DOGE is evidence that Republicans don't value the division of power. Some of these things aren't immediately obvious to everyone, especially if they are determined to be legal (whether we like the law or not).

          We must resist the urge to demonize and dehumanize the opposition. That is exactly what is happening: even with our comments and upvotes we are collectively deciding that the opposition is out of their minds and are increasingly a foe to be vanquished. That is, frankly, stupidity of the masses.

          • By telchior 2025-04-0322:34

            If someone changes and begins to continually insists that something plainly untrue is true, does that mean that they possibly still have the values they used to? How long do you continue defending the "well, maybe..." case?

            Throw out the Jan 6th example, it's now ancient history. As a party, Republicans are, at this very instant, claiming that judges are acting illegally for... using their constitutionally mandated legal powers. Simultaneously, but separately, the party apparatus is repeating on a daily basis a new conspiracy theory that the judges they don't like are being controlled by some nefarious power.

            And it's a very, very well established playbook. We have many examples of countries that dismantled their systems of transition of power and division of power starting with the courts. It's a move that could pretty much make it into a "For Dummies" book.

            "The value is still there." I can't see it. But maybe I'm too focused on judging on the entire scope of action and speech, rather than a very narrow bit of speech that isn't at all reflected in actions.

        • By wesapien 2025-04-0323:33

          I think the outcomes achieved for domestic vs foreign is another interesting angle. The degradation of purchasing power of working and middle class is have been consistently getting worse.

      • By popalchemist 2025-04-0321:33

        While you broadly make a great point, there are psychological dimensions to take into consideration. Some people's personalities are more inclined toward tribalistic thinking and will extend their capacity for empathy only toward their own in-group, while others are capable of expanding the "in-group" to include all of humanity. So while it may be true to say that Republicans care about human rights, it is more accurate to say they care about their OWN human rights, and not the rights of people outside their in-group.

        If you want to remove the political labeling from this statement, about 30% of the population "thinks" (or, rather, does not think, but acts) this way, and it is important to realize that the motivating factor differs between them and the other type of human, who cares about people in the abstract.

      • By vendiddy 2025-04-0411:541 reply

        I think this is spot on.

        I feel like folks on both sides would stop talking past each other if they were willing to understand the other POV rather than dismissing it as crazy.

        • By hyeonwho4 2025-04-0522:35

          Compromising and using empathy to understand the opposition's views so that you can negotiate for what you need does not satisfy the base, and does not satisfy social media. The (naive) game theory of negotiation says that it is better to stake out an extreme position so that you get more of what you want when you negotiate it away. And the dynamic of primary elections also allows traitors or traders to be punished if they defy the desires of the party too much.

      • By watwut 2025-04-047:061 reply

        > Republicans want to pursue safety from tyranny.

        Not true. This is simply not what they want.

        > Democrats want to pursue safety from guns. Republicans want to pursue safety from tyranny. Both sides care about personal safety.

        Republicans wants to ensure their opponents are sufficiently tyrannized. They care much less about safety, systematically. They even openly look down on those who care about safety, not seeing them sufficiently manly.

        > Do Republicans care about human rights?

        Not much. Openly not much so, Musk called empathy the biggest weakness of western civilization. Trumps and Musks moves clearly do not care about human rights, republicans stand by them.

        > Do Democrats care about domestic prosperity? Yes.

        Yup, they do. I am not really sure about republicans anymore, given last moves.

        > The real problem is the one you are contributing to: the unwillingness to empathize. Empathy is the only way to come to a compromise. With a little empathy you might even find that you have to compromise less because you might actually convince someone of your argument, for once.

        These people vote for Trump and Vance and see empathy as a weakness. That is not compromise, that is capitulation to a lie. You want one side to dominate and have everything they do excused. The other one should be nice, submissive and empathetic. But this is based on lies - lies about what republicans actually do and lies about their motivation. Lies to make them sound better. And lies about what democrats actually do - lies to make them sound worst.

        • By kulahan 2025-04-065:02

          Of course there are a myriad of reasons why people are republicans, and republicans represent a myriad of peoples. What benefit do you think you gain by putting on blinders like that?

      • By Miraste 2025-04-0320:101 reply

        Abortion rights is about religion-as clear a difference in values as one can have.

        • By kulahan 2025-04-065:05

          I think if you believe this is simply a religious issue, you’ve majorly missed the point.

          Many religions do stand against abortion, but the philosophical argument can be summarized in part as “when is something a human”. There really no need for religion to argue that point, and it can settle a huge number of disagreements.

      • By cambaceres 2025-04-0916:16

        Hi, just want to tell you that this comment was one of the best I have read in a long time.

      • By dbingham 2025-04-0320:141 reply

        This was true a decade ago. It is no longer true.

        The modern Trump controlled Republican party is not a party that cares about personal liberties. It is a fascist, authoritarian project that is toying with straight up Nazism. They are explicitly pulling from the Nazi playbook in their language and strategy of attack on the rule of law. Someone who supports that party is supporting a completely different set of values from someone who opposes it.

        That said, that party is also backed by a powerful and effective propaganda machine that has successfully pulled the wool over many people's eyes such that they don't fully realize what it is they are supporting.

        • By cylinder714 2025-04-0320:432 reply

          The left has called every Republican presidential candidate a Nazi/fascist/authoritarian since Ronald Reagan.

          • By toofy 2025-04-0321:26

            this is far too broad of a generalization. just like it would be too broad of a generalization to declare all conservatives to be maga.

            if we’re to believe trump he declares people to be “extreme leftists” who are clearly not even leftists.

            so i find it highly unlikely that the entirety of “the left” called every republican presidential candidate these things.

          • By goatlover 2025-04-0321:31

            Doesn't matter what the left said previously, what matters is that the Trump Administration is behaving in an autocratic manner. Godwin's law has been abused online since forever, but you can just draw a comparison with Putin's ascent to autocratic rule in Russia.

      • By misiti3780 2025-04-0319:53

        bingo!

    • By rzz3 2025-04-0319:512 reply

      > In this world, asking "who did you vote for" isn't a matter of tribalism, but it is a (good) proxy for asking someone "what are your values".

      I strongly disagree. In this duopoly of a political system, most people on both sides are just picking the lesser of two evils. Meanwhile, we are creating an alarmingly decisive political society by choosing not to associate with those who vote differently than us. Perhaps most importantly, we lose the opportunity to actually shift the political positions of others (and ourselves) by not engaging in healthy and non-judgmental political discussions with our friends and neighbors, ultimately increasing polarization even further.

      Not everyone is voting based on their values—some are simply voting their wallets or the special interests they align with. Someone who is pro-choice, pro-LGBT, and pro-immigration may very well vote Republican because they work in the US Automotive industry, and so do their friends and families and people who they care most about. It doesn’t necessarily mean their core values are different than yours, but instead maybe simply just their priorities.

      • By rebeccaskinner 2025-04-0320:412 reply

        > pro-choice, pro-LGBT, and pro-immigration may very well vote Republican because they work in the US Automotive industry, and so do their friends and families and people who they care most about.

        What you care most about is a statement of values.

        • By rzz3 2025-04-040:54

          I’d say priorities and values are pretty different, but there can be some overlap. But the problem is, folks don’t give it the required amount of nuance, and simply loop in all the horrible things the other party does and stands for with the values of that person, and it’s usually not accurate.

        • By greycol 2025-04-0322:23

          Sure but if you're so reductionist then you'd also be arguing that slaves were making a statement about their values and how they viewed slavery because the majority didn't immediately escape or die trying. It would be disingenuous to say or even imply from that statement that their value system was pro slavery though.

      • By m463 2025-04-0323:211 reply

        Also some people don't vote for someone, they vote against someone else.

        • By fulladder 2025-04-0323:431 reply

          I don't have any statistical data on this, but my impression is that it's more than "some people." It may be half or even most.

          You have one contingent that is anti-Trump and will vote for any alternative to Trump, even a senile old man with dementia. You have another contingent that is against Progressivism/leftism and will vote for anything that opposes this, up to and including voting for Trump despite strongly disliking him.

          The root problem is that social media amplifies extreme voices, so you get very extreme rhetoric coming out of both sides. This scares people and makes them feel like their primary goal must be to vote against the scary thing.

          • By kulahan 2025-04-065:09

            I think you can lend credence to this theory in your first sentence by considering election strategy. Usually the focus is on the moderates, because those super motivated voters are pretty easy to guarantee.

            The moderates end up being a very small portion of voters, I believe?

    • By dwallin 2025-04-0317:321 reply

      I would say that the partial counterpoint to that is, for most people their values are also largely tribe based, in that their values are not purely fixed, but rather tend to adapt to loosely track the tribal consensus. Very few are the ones willing to stick to their convictions under pressure.

      There are clearly some (many?) shared average axiomatic values that seem to be common between very different cultures/religions (although individuals vary much more significantly), but it's much easier to obsess on the places we differ.

      Where I strongly disagree is the idea that groups with different fundamental values can't necessarily find common policy ground. A good example is Basic Income, where you can find agreement between groups on opposite sides that both embrace the idea, but for very different value-driven reasons. In many cases, you can also agree to disagree, and just keep your collective hands out of it (eg. separation of religion and state).

    • By shw1n 2025-04-0317:092 reply

      I reject this idea, someone voting for the "least worst candidate" does not wholly endorse everything they stand for

      As someone said in this thread, in the US two-party system, coalitions are formed before the vote vs after in other countries

      The whole purpose of this piece is to precisely encourage pointed discussion about values directly and skip the proxying

      • By rfgmendoza 2025-04-0317:132 reply

        "someone voting for the "least worst candidate" does not wholly endorse everything they stand for"

        yes but somebody voting for the "most worst candidate" is not somebody who's values should be trusted

        • By shw1n 2025-04-0317:291 reply

          and if someone opposite the aisle from you believes the same thing about you, there's zero chance to flip them

          with direct discussion about values, it's possible

          basically all comes down to "are you open to the chance you're wrong"

          you could view that chance as low as 0.001%, but it shouldn't be 0

          • By sn9 2025-04-0317:40

            People frequently have a gap between their values and their politics, and talking about both can reveal the cognitive dissonance.

            If they engage with politics as tribalism, and you talk to them about a policy their tribe implemented that conflicts with their values, this is useful.

        • By darth_avocado 2025-04-0317:20

          The very idea of “least worst” is very subjective. In their eyes, if they disagree with you, it is who’s values should not be trusted.

      • By rebeccaskinner 2025-04-0318:581 reply

        > I reject this idea, someone voting for the "least worst candidate" does not wholly endorse everything they stand for

        The thing about values is that they don't just capture the notion of what we thing is right or wrong, but also which things we value over other things. In an extreme case, two people can agree on 10 out of 10 different ideals or ethical stances and still have different values and support different parties because of how they rank those things.

        In that case who you think is the "least worst" is also a reflection of values, as is declaring both sides to be the same, or opting out altogether. They all represent both what things you value and how much you value them.

        • By shw1n 2025-04-0319:17

          > In that case who you think is the "least worst" is also a reflection of values

          perceived values -- if someone has the same values and rankings as you, but was exposed to different information, then with this logic you'll never be able to find out or flip them

          as I said to the other commenter, basically all comes down to "are you open to the chance you're wrong"

          you could view that chance as low as 0.001%, but it shouldn't be 0

    • By zkid18 2025-04-0319:40

      I think the assumption that political parties represent two completely distinct sets of values is overly simplistic. In reality, there's a significant amount of overlap between them—what often differs is the style of messaging and the framing of ideas.

      Personally, I find it hard to fully identify with either the left or the right. I share beliefs and values from both sides, depending on the issue. This makes it difficult to adopt a clear-cut political label, and I think that's true for many people.

      Politics today often feels more like a battle of narratives than a clash of core principles / values.

      p.s. my perspective is non-US one.

    • By benlivengood 2025-04-0319:491 reply

      > For the last 20 years at least, the leadership of the two main political parties in the US have largely invested in messaging around the values that they represent.

      The largest two U.S. parties have been heavily minmaxing the propaganda they release to divide districts on the most effective issues they can convert into election wins. Their values are "get elected to office" but the propaganda can't be so straightforward because there aren't a lot of voters who are easily converted by that directness.

      Voters have values; political parties and candidates have propaganda. Game theoretically the winning move is to compete on comparative advantage of an issue within a voting district; because (for example) Democratic voters are split on the death penalty it's a very useless propaganda point for the party as a whole [0]; sticking to one side or the other would lose more elections than it would win. Note that this is very different from ranking the importance of values and focusing on the most impactful to real people; the (implicit) hope is that by focusing on effective propaganda issues then some values may be preserved through the election process. In practice politicians also horse-trade for future party political capital in preference to espoused values.

      One fundamental problem is that without a parliamentary style of government where coalitions are required to form a functioning legislature the usefulness of values in elections is greatly diminished. If I may say, the Republican party has done the best at shedding the illusion and explicitly transferring power to the party itself to enforce the values held by one man, which is the ultimate game-theoretically strong position for a political party. Disconnecting the ultimate value-judged outcomes of elections from the political machinations that win them has been incredibly damaging to democracy.

      [0] https://www.salon.com/2024/08/31/the-end-of-the-abolition-er...

      • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-04-0515:07

        << One fundamental problem is that without a parliamentary style of government where coalitions are required to form a functioning legislature the usefulness of values in elections is greatly diminished. If I may say,

        This is may be where I personally have a problem. It used to be, in the olden days, that each congressman/senator was responsible to his/her constituents. That no longer appears to be the case. They are responsible to their own tribe ( party ). This is a major issue that would need to be corrected before anything substantial could be even considered. In other words, we used to 535 parties, but those have consolidated heavily to the detriment of the actual people they are supposed to represent.

        I hate to say it like this, but the coming recession ( depression if we are not as lucky ) may actually piss people off just enough to point their pitchforks at the political class. It will not be pretty, because average American already holds their representative in very high regard ( that is, if they know their name, which is another conversation.. but when things go south, I am sure they will learn their name real fast ).

        I had a longer rant, but I decided to trim it down.

    • By jjtheblunt 2025-04-0318:22

      > leadership of the two main political parties in the US have largely invested in messaging around the values that they represent

      I'd say they invest in messaging around the values they want voters to believe they represent.

      i.e., marketing and ensuing reality diverge regularly with politicians, regardless of affiliation.

    • By brightlancer 2025-04-0318:271 reply

      > For the last 20 years at least, the leadership of the two main political parties in the US have largely invested in messaging around the values that they represent.

      Except that the "values" each promotes are often inconsistent with other "values" they promote, sometimes to the point of absurd irrationality, e.g. marijuana vs tobacco or alcohol.

      And other "values" are completely independent, but correlate so highly that "tribalism" is a much better explainer, e.g. abortion and guns.

      > and into a world where the parties policies are aiming to realize fundamentally different visions of the world, based on fundamentally different values.

      That's not new.

      On a very high level, the two major parties do want everyone to be healthy, wealthy and wise -- the issue is that they disagree on what those words mean, and what should be sacrificed (and by whom) to achieve it, which means the two major parties have always had very different visions of the future.

      > If you discover that someone has completely different values from you, then discussing policy isn't going to be useful anyway, because there's no way you'll agree on a single policy when you have different fundamental values.

      And that right there is a call to tribalism: Don't bother with Those People, They Have Different Values, They Aren't Like Us.

      • By rebeccaskinner 2025-04-0318:531 reply

        > Don't bother with Those People, They Have Different Values, They Aren't Like Us

        I didn't say that you shouldn't bother with people. I said that discussing _policy_ is not useful if you don't agree on _values_. It's the wrong level of abstraction. To put it in a plain analogy: discussing the best route to get to your destination isn't useful if you don't agree on where you are going.

        If you want to engage with someone with different values, then the values are where you need to start. If you want to engage with someone on the best way to get somewhere, you need to start by making sure you both agree on where you want to go.

        • By brightlancer 2025-04-052:021 reply

          "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" is a value statement; in the US, some folks agree with it, some do not.

          Under your argument, folks who disagreed about that value statement shouldn't bother discussing criminal justice policy; I think that's erroneous and part-and-parcel of Don't Bother With Those People.

          Yes, _some_ policy conversations might be futile if folks have completely opposed values, but I don't think we should apply that generally.

          We MUST work with people who hold different values than us, without trying to change their values so that they become part of Us.

          • By rebeccaskinner 2025-04-0515:51

            I think there are parts of the policy that people wouldn’t be able to agree on because of differences in values.

            To look at another example, some people view the purpose of prisons as being primarily for causing suffering and to punish people. Other people don’t care much either way about suffering and see prisons as a way to remove people from society. Some people think the purpose of prisons should be rehabilitation, and see suffering as practically counterproductive. Some people don’t believe that if the state is taking someone’s freedom they have an ethical obligation to minimize that persons suffering. Some people don’t believe in the concept of prison at all.

            There are a lot of views there, and while you might be able to get some of the people with differing views to agree on policy some of the time, the goals are significantly different and that’s going to be a significant obstacle in shaping a meaningful policy in all but perhaps a few isolated cases.

    • By wand3r 2025-04-0318:36

      This makes 0 sense. Democrat and Republican "values", to the extent they are even real, no way represent the full spectrum of values one can have.

      Further, the Democratic party has a 27% approval rating and the Republican party had like 47% and I bet its falling. So even within your narrow framework this is a bad proxy because both are clearly unpopular.

    • By cj 2025-04-0318:154 reply

      > "who did you vote for" isn't a matter of tribalism, but it is a (good) proxy for asking someone "what are your values"

      You should test this hypothesis by talking to someone for 10 minutes, then guessing who they voted for.

      My hypothesis is you wouldn't do better than 50/50.

      • By MajimasEyepatch 2025-04-0318:412 reply

        "If p then q" does not imply "If q then p."

        Besides, there's a ton of easy ways to beat 50/50 odds without explicitly asking who they voted for. You can ask whether they graduated from college, and that will get you to something like 55/45 or 60/40. If they're white and they did not graduate from college, or if they're not white and they did graduate from college, your odds of guessing right are something like 2:1.

        Studies have also found (somewhat weak) correlations between some of the Big Five personality traits and political identification: people who score highly on conscientiousness are more likely to be right-leaning, while people who score highly on openness to experience are more likely to be left-leaning.

        • By cj 2025-04-0319:401 reply

          > "If p then q" does not imply "If q then p."

          My original comment is challenging whether "p then q" is valid in the first place by asking if the inverse would be true as a thought experiment. (Neither is true IMO)

          Just because someone has certain values doesn't mean they vote a certain way.

          Just because they vote a certain way doesn't mean they have certain values.

          "p" (who you voted for) and "q" (your values) are largely independent for a large percentage of voters.

          • By MajimasEyepatch 2025-04-0322:511 reply

            My point is that the validity and soundness of the inverse proposition has no bearing on the validity and soundness of the original proposition, so you’ve proposed a meaningless experiment.

            I also think that your hypothesis that voting and values are not connected is false, but that’s a separate issue.

            • By cj 2025-04-0322:58

              I understand your point and I agree with it. I didn't respond to it directly because it wasn't contributing to the discussion at hand. But I agree with your point that an inverse proposition doesn't always hold!

        • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-04-0515:111 reply

          Eh, if you get to 1k people, probably, but you would be surprised ( maybe dismayed ), how messy the process would get as you try to shoehorn various flags into excel tracking spreadsheet for future analysis. Not to search very far, based on the factors presented, I should be in one camp, but just by virtue of not having been born here and not imbued with early childhood propaganda, I am, at best, not what you would expect politically.

          edit: exceptions test the rule and so on

          • By MajimasEyepatch 2025-04-0516:52

            It’s not like I said it was 100%. 55/45 or even 67/33 is pretty noisy and will fail a lot. Still beats 50/50.

      • By crackrook 2025-04-0319:23

        The hypothesis is that knowing a person's voting activity helps one to predict that individual's values. I don't think the parent is claiming that the values that might be revealed by a 10 minute conversation are a predictor for voting activity. I think there's a distinction, since people can - and, in my perspective, often do - misrepresent or misidentify their true values in their conversations with strangers. I am assuming that people act on their true values, not necessarily those that they advertise, when they fill out ballots.

      • By bandofthehawk 2025-04-0319:10

        The is a really good, IMO, Saturday Night Live skit about this where the contestants try to guess Republican or not of various people. Some of the bits do a great job of pointing out how some of the values people claim to believe in are only applied selectivity when it benefits their side.

      • By J5892 2025-04-0318:36

        I was talking to a very drunk Republican girl the other day. We were having a small argument about why we would send medical support to Africa for AIDS. Her argument was something about fixing America first (I was also drunk).

        I asked if she regretted her vote for Trump after several people she knew lost their government contracting jobs, and she said "No, fuck that guy, I didn't vote for him."

    • By mindslight 2025-04-0317:38

      > In this world, asking "who did you vote for" isn't a matter of tribalism, but it is a (good) proxy for asking someone "what are your values".

      Only if you ascertain the (inverse of the) mapping of values -> vote correctly, and it's definitively not what the parties or the tribes themselves profess.

      For myself [0], I sympathize with many of the issues Trump ran on while finding most of the Democratic platform cloying and hollow. But I value effective policy, being accountable to intellectual criticism, and a generally open society far far more. (And at this point in my life, a healthy dose of straight up actual conservatism, too!)

      [0] and while it might seem needlessly inflammatory to include this here, I think it's unavoidable that people are going to be trying to read partisan implications from abstract comments regardless.

    • By nitwit005 2025-04-0318:091 reply

      > In truth, values and ethics are fundamental to effectively discussing politics.

      People generally haven't formed strong opinions on most issues, and defer to party or a leader they like for the remaining. They'll still happily argue about it for the post part, unfortunately.

      You can see this effect after some elections where people "fall in line" with their party's new presidential candidate on some issue.

      • By DrillShopper 2025-04-0318:18

        > People generally haven't formed strong opinions on most issues, and defer to party or a leader they like for the remaining.

        I call this "politics as religion".

        Remember you cannot reason someone out of a position they never reasoned themselves into. Route around the damage and make them irrelevant.

    • By bentt 2025-04-042:12

      Values alone leads to supporting solutions that sound good but don’t work. “Free money for everyone” speaks to values of equity, fairness, and empathy… while creating all kinds of side effects like inflation.

      If you are going to focus on values, apply them to a rigorous analysis of what works.

    • By n4r9 2025-04-0713:42

      You make a great point about values. It's potentially the biggest issue with the linked article. You got a weirdly large number of dissenting replies, so I just wanted to say that. I think it's irrelevant whether or not there are "two mutually exclusive" sets of values. What's relevant is that one's values can point you more in one direction than the other.

    • By BeFlatXIII 2025-04-0320:54

      That's why I love claiming to be a third-party voter so much. It breaks their brains and their response informs whether or not they are worthy of my respect.

    • By bad_haircut72 2025-04-0319:40

      The two sides dont actually have different values, they have small wedge issues that unscrupulous individuals/groups over-exaggerate for their own gain. Im center left but still see myself in Trump supporters, were basically the same people who basically want to live our lives

    • By dumbledoren 2025-04-0319:48

      > The policies are different too, but over time we've gone from a world where there were at least some cases where the two parties had different policies for how to reach the same goals, and into a world where the parties policies are aiming to realize fundamentally different visions of the world, based on fundamentally different values.

      What difference do the parties have? They are both the 'corporate party' maximizing shareholder profit at all costs including killing brown people overseas or murdering Americans at home if they cant pay for healthcare.

    • By nickff 2025-04-0317:561 reply

      Even the language that the different parties use is targeted at certain sets of values; Arnold Kling wrote this short book on the subject ("The Three Languages of Politics"): https://cdn.cato.org/libertarianismdotorg/books/ThreeLanguag...

      "The Righteous Mind" by Jonathan Haidt is another, more nuanced (and complicated), but extremely interesting take on the subject of how values drive political affiliation.

      • By brightlancer 2025-04-0318:401 reply

        Framing has always been used in political debate just to target certain values; what may have changed (or not) is as a deliberate tactic to keep people divided: folks who do not speak the same language cannot communicate.

        On a lot of issues, I think 80% of folks are in 80% of agreement, but the partisans (whether politicians or activists) are framing the issue to prevent that consensus, because the partisans want something in the 20% that 80% of folks don't agree with.

        • By nickff 2025-04-0318:521 reply

          Kling and Haidt would agree with your respective paragraphs, though they do add a lot of color, and their books are worth reading.

          • By brightlancer 2025-04-0321:13

            I've listened to Haidt speak about it and his book is in my tall stack to read; I don't think I'd heard of King but I grabbed the PDF. Thank you.

    • By TwoNineFive 2025-04-0321:19

      Your need to insult the author proved his point.

    • By andrewclunn 2025-04-0319:041 reply

      Values are largely posturing. Push comes to shove most people don't really care about what they say they care about. Tribal heuristics of trust are way more important.

      • By rebeccaskinner 2025-04-0516:02

        I think most people care about some things. Most people don’t have the capacity to feel strongly about every issue, but there are some overarching ones that tend to hold along political lines, and people will tend to have pet issues as well.

    • By andrewmcwatters 2025-04-0323:34

      You're just describing tribalism.

    • By erlich 2025-04-0320:25

      > to realize fundamentally different visions of the world, based on fundamentally different values

      I think your use of the word "world" is telling.

      Trump, the Republicans, and the global right are focused on their citizens.

      The Democrats and the global left are more focused on the world and their role in it.

      It's no longer just two approaches on how we can have the strongest economy. Each party has a weighting for how much to consider every issue across the world.

      For example, there are people who would be happy with less growth, lower income, but more action on climate change.

    • By jcz_nz 2025-04-042:17

      I went through the top responses to you, and indeed, nearly 100% of the pearl-clutching "you're so wrong" have comment history that strongly suggests right wing / libertarian / neocon beliefs. In related news, no one admits to voting for Nixon either.

    • By eastbound 2025-04-0318:092 reply

      [flagged]

      • By goatlover 2025-04-0320:02

        I'm not a leftist. Your leader and his allies are a danger to democracy. I don't get this from the Democratic Party, or ANTIFA, or Bernie Sanders. I get it from paying attention to what Trump and his administration have been doing.

      • By nadir_ishiguro 2025-04-0318:45

        [flagged]

  • By rdegges 2025-04-0218:3817 reply

    I'll provide an opposing viewpoint. In the last 10 years, I've lost friendships and family because people in my life have voted for candidates that stripped rights away from women, minorities, etc.

    Having a vast difference between opinions is fine, but some of their decisions are fundamentally against my core beliefs and have done literal harm to many people I know.

    For that reason, terminating family and friendships has been absolutely worth it for me.

    Until we can live in a world where fundamental rights are protected and respected, we have no common ground, and it's pointless to tiptoe around these insanely harmful beliefs while maintaining a facade of friendship.

    • By daft_pink 2025-04-0218:4617 reply

      I think essentially tolerating other peoples opinions and trying to understand where they are coming from is more useful than applying purity tests to your friends and family.

      I’m pretty sure that they weren’t voting for those candidates for the express purpose of stripping away those rights and there were other policies and values that they were voting for.

      I’ll be honest that I’m Jewish and certain posts about Palestine where friends or non Jewish family have specifically expressed values that I find anti-myself I have completely cut out of my life. (not all beliefs about pro Palestine are anti-semetic, but most are) But I believe that most views at the party level are just different priorities or different view points and tolerance is necessary, because they are not directly in conflict.

      • By TimorousBestie 2025-04-033:42

        > I’m pretty sure that they weren’t voting for those candidates for the express purpose of stripping away those rights and there were other policies and values that they were voting for.

        I thought the GOP was pretty clear throughout the election cycle, from President to local office, that their desired world can only come to be through a drastic restructuring of the Constitutional status quo ante.

        I don’t know that “I only voted for (e.g.) tax cuts, everything else is collateral damage and I’m not culpable for it,” is a defensible moral stance.

      • By atmavatar 2025-04-030:023 reply

        > I’m pretty sure that they weren’t voting for those candidates for the express purpose of stripping away those rights and there were other policies and values that they were voting for.

        Voting for a party explicitly demonstrates at least acceptance of if not outright support for its platform. You don't get to absolve yourself of support for kicking puppies because the FooBar party also includes a modest tax cut in its policy agenda that you really want.

        It doesn't matter if the opposing party advocates for raising taxes or even eating kittens.

        That's true even if realistically, there are no other parties capable of winning. You can support a third party, abstain out of protest, or even begin a grass-roots campaign to start yet another party. You can even try changing the FooBar party from within, so long as you don't vote for them until sufficient change has occurred.

        • By btilly 2025-04-034:131 reply

          Voting for a party explicitly demonstrates at least acceptance of if not outright support for its platform. You don't get to absolve yourself of support for kicking puppies because the FooBar party also includes a modest tax cut in its policy agenda that you really want.

          Virtually no independent thinker is going to support either major party's platform, for the simple reason that both parties have a collection of inconsistent policies that are an incoherent ideological mishmash. Therefore you do not so much vote FOR a party as you instead hold your nose and vote AGAINST the other one.

          • By MrJohz 2025-04-035:184 reply

            Sure, but in the US, the choices right now are between a party that you might not fully agree with, and a party whose explicit platform is to strip fundamental rights away from women, LGBTQ people, and other minorities, all while dismantling the basic structures of democracy in order to guarantee their hold on power for as long as possible.

            When you vote for a party, you may not fully agree with all their policies, but you are stating that the drawbacks are acceptable compromises. When you vote for FooBar, you might not want puppies to be kicked, but you consider it a tradeoff worth making if it gets you that tax cut.

            If you are looking at the political landscape of the US as an independent thinker, and are questioning whether abandoning the principles of human rights and liberal democracy are a tradeoff worth making, then I really question whether your thoughts are really as independent as you would like to believe.

            • By bigstrat2003 2025-04-037:203 reply

              > and a party whose explicit platform is to strip fundamental rights away from women, LGBTQ people, and other minorities, all while dismantling the basic structures of democracy in order to guarantee their hold on power for as long as possible.

              This certainly might be what you believe their platform amounts to. But it is most certainly not their explicit platform. Accuse people of what they actually have done, not what you believe their actions to be logically equivalent to. Otherwise there can't actually be a reasonable discussion, because you're giving off heat rather than light.

              • By MrJohz 2025-04-039:431 reply

                This is their explicit platform. Trump's presidential campaign officially ran on the basis of "Agenda 47", which clearly sets out their goals and aims. It includes dismantling the basic structures of democracy (in the form of heavy expansion of executive powers), and reducing access to healthcare for women and LGBTQ people. We have already seen evidence of the above, as well as events like the new administration arresting protestors without due process.

                I think your point is that Project 2025 is not Trump's explicit platform, which is correct (although this doesn't affect my statement which was about his explicit platform). However, if it looks, walks, and talks like a duck, we also need to be willing to call it a duck. Project 2025 goes significantly above and beyond Agenda 47, the group behind it explicitly endorse Trump, and many of Project 2025's authors are involved in the Trump administration. Being an "independent thinker" does not mean accepting what both sides say at face value, it means looking at people's behaviour and drawing judgements based on that.

              • By yibg 2025-04-037:32

                Actions speaker louder than words. It might not be their platform, but it's what they're doing. If you see your party taking action to strip away rights from LGBTQ groups, immigrants, women and you still support them, then I don't know what else to say.

              • By const_cast 2025-04-0315:22

                No, this is explicitly what the Republican Party platform is.

                If you have any doubts, please read Project 2025. Most of this is extremely explicit and impossible to ignore. Of course, most conservatives will still try to ignore it because nobody wants to admit they might have made a mistake.

            • By FeepingCreature 2025-04-036:581 reply

              This is the problem with a two-party system. It makes every citizen either complicit in the worst party or the second-worst party.

              You can't hold who they voted for against people in a two-party system. There just isn't enough choice.

              • By drusenko 2025-04-0419:271 reply

                In a two party system, wouldn't any party, no matter how good, always be the second-worst party? Ranking parties in a two party system doesn't really give you much insight into their absolute "goodness level".

                • By FeepingCreature 2025-04-0420:25

                  Yes that's sort of what I'm saying. There'll always be plenty of reasons to blame people for voting either party, because two parties is just not enough to expect any facsimile of moral flawlessness. It's too few samples, especially with median-voter.

            • By btilly 2025-04-0318:52

              You are giving a fully partisan version from one side, while ignoring the partisan view from the other. Not entirely your fault correctly stating what the other side thinks, in terms that the other side will agree with, is an extremely hard task. It sounds like it should be simple. But getting it right requires getting past our cognitive biases that the other side is wrong, which make it hard to actually see what they are seeing.

              Here is a Republican take that is about as biased as your take on Republicans. "Democrats are fully infected by the woke mind virus, destroying merit in favor of DEI, promoting antisemitism in support of Hamas terrorism, and suppressing free speech in favor of totalitarian control."

              Both partisan perspective have some truth, and a lot that is false. For example, while it is true that Trump represents a threat to democracy, threatening democracy is not part of the Republican party's explicit platform. Conversely, while it is true that there has been a sharp rise in antisemitism on the left, most of that really is antizionism. (That said, if you try to make Palestine free from sea to sea, where will over 7 million Jewish refugees go? You're unlikely to be more lucky than Hitler was in the 1930s in finding a country who is willing to accept them. What happens then?)

            • By ThrowawayR2 2025-04-0318:34

              > "...women, ... and other minorities..."

              According to polls, slightly more women voted for Trump in 2024 than in 2020 and significantly more minorities voted for Trump in 2024 than in 2020 (https://www.nbcwashington.com/decision-2024/2024-voter-turno...). One party energetically claims to be on the side of the oppressed but the oppressed don't exactly seem to be flocking to be on the side of that party. Makes you think, doesn't it?

              The Democrats cannot win as long as there's a substantial faction inside it unwilling to face the reality of what voters actually think instead of what they want to tell the voters to think.

        • By lazyasciiart 2025-04-033:39

          I disagree, but I think moral purity is a less ethical way of living than practical action - best exemplified by the story of the Good Samaritan.

          Similarly to “silence is complicity.” Refusing to oppose a party by choosing the other is indicating acceptance of what they will do.

        • By hackinthebochs 2025-04-034:362 reply

          This is a fundamental difference with how people on the (American) left and people on the right view politics. Those on the right frequently vote based on a single or a few issues, ignoring the rest of the platform that may be unpalatable. While those on the left frequently view voting as an endorsement of the whole person. Any unwanted policy tends to be a turn off. It's why you say "you don't get to absolve yourself of support for kicking puppies" while the right does just that. You would be better served understanding the values and motivations of your opposition rather than projecting your values onto them and judging them based on a strawman.

          • By crote 2025-04-035:461 reply

            I would've probably agreed with this point 10 or 15 years ago. Someone saying "I would've liked universal healthcare, but lower taxes are more important to me" has an understandable position. I might not agree with their choice, but I can respect their decision.

            However, these days the American political landscape looks a lot different. I understand having priorities, but if someone believes that a magical make-eggs-be-cheaper plan should have a higher priority than their friend (i.e., me) having basic human rights, why would I want to be friends with them? It doesn't matter if they personally agree with the politician's strip-their-friend-of-basic-rights plans or not, the fact that it isn't a priority to them at all says enough.

            • By genewitch 2025-04-036:562 reply

              What basic rights do I have that you don't, and where are these codified?

              • By UncleMeat 2025-04-0316:222 reply

                In the US there are no federal antidiscrimination protections for LGBT people except in employment through Bostock (and conveniently, Trump's EEOC has stopped pursuing these cases). You can be evicted from your home for being gay but not for being black or Christian.

                Access to gender affirming care for trans minors is banned in more than half of US states. The very same medicines are allowed to be given to cis minors.

                In 13 US states bathroom bills prevent trans people from comfortably existing outside of their homes for more than a few hours at a time.

                It has only been 22 years since sodomy laws were found unconstitutional. It has only been 10 years since gay marriage was legalized nationwide. Thomas wrote in his Dobbs concurrence that Lawrence should be revisited. Several state legislatures have passed resolutions calling for Obergefell to be overturned.

                While less of a "basic right", the Trump administration has banned trans people from serving in the military. Visibility of gay or trans characters in media available for minors is also regularly threatened. Products for trans people sold at stores like Target have led to bomb threats.

                • By genewitch 2025-04-0319:412 reply

                  > Access to gender affirming care for trans minors is banned in more than half of US states. The very same medicines are allowed to be given to cis minors.

                  The Cass report conclusions and recommendations should be listened to, it was a way better and more thorough study than the Netherlands study that begat all of the "gender clinics" in the US and elsewhere. https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20250310143...

                  > In 13 US states bathroom bills prevent trans people from comfortably existing outside of their homes for more than a few hours at a time.

                  As far as bathrooms, i feel uncomfortable in public restrooms. I don't know what the rate of people that feel uncomfortable in public restrooms, but those of us that do find family or single occupant restrooms, and know what places have those. No one wants to piss in a literal trough, i could be wrong.

                  I don't consider sodomy a basic human right, but i could be argued with, i guess.

                  I don't see what "bomb threats" have to do with human rights, in this context. Is there a human right to have products available at Target? If everyone boycotted Target (like they did with Bud Light), is that a violation of human rights, too?

                  I am unsure why people keep deleting their replies. It is possible to have a reasoned discussion about inflammatory topics.

                  • By UncleMeat 2025-04-0319:571 reply

                    This is how things often goes. "Oh those aren't actually rights."

                    You can think this, I suppose. But let me tell you that a very large number of LGBT people do consider these things to be questions of their basic rights.

                    • By genewitch 2025-04-0320:081 reply

                      i'm willing to listen to arguments about why any of those are basic rights. I am unsure about the housing, so i didn't mention it. Upon a quick check, Bostock prevents renters from being evicted or otherwise un-housed merely for being LGBT. Unless i see actual writing that shows there is a literal directive to ignore complaints, i cannot just accept your words. top results for eviction of LGBT sort of news is about people "behind on rent." If i don't pay rent for 2 months, i'll also get an eviction notice (sometimes called a pay or quit.)

                      there's groups of people that think all kinds of things are "basic rights" but it doesn't mean they are. I could say nothing is a "basic right" since any example you can give is violated globally. Maybe some stuff should be globally truly basic rights. But i am willing to listen to arguments that any of these things are a basic right as it stands.

                      just a for instance: Sodomy. saying it's a human right implies that sexual intercourse is a basic human right. I am unsure if you really want to make this argument.

                      • By UncleMeat 2025-04-0320:421 reply

                        Bostock applies to Title 7. The reasoning is that discrimination based on sexuality or gender identity is sex discrimination, which can be applied to other laws like the FHA but this is not established federally and the Trump administration is currently in legal fights explicitly in opposition to this position. So I do not think that it is fair to say that Bostock prevents renters from being evicted based on their gender identity or sexuality.

                        [Here](https://www.eeoc.gov/newsroom/removing-gender-ideology-and-r...) is an EEOC's "literal directive" pulling back on relevant cases. If you want specific cases then [this article](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/eeoc-transgender-discrimination...) references specific ongoing cases that have been dropped by the EEOC.

                        And I do think the ability to have consenting and private intercourse without being imprisoned is a human right. I did not expect that this would be controversial.

                        • By genewitch 2025-04-0320:521 reply

                          the eeoc link doesn't mention housing or "rent." https://www.findlaw.com/lgbtq-law/housing-discrimination-pro... this says that HUD and DoJ handle those cases.

                          If you're talking about employment (which the EEOC appears to cover) - i've been fired for not cutting my hair short enough. I've been fired for refusing to wear a tie for a cubicle job. In the US, employment is at-will, generally. If that's what you have an issue with, then let's talk about that. Even if the issue is with hiring discrimination of any kind, i can get behind that, too.

                          And there's a subtle, yet perceivable difference between what you said, "sodomy laws" and your statement now about "consenting and private intercourse." i also notice you didn't mention "between adults."

                          I don't really want to have a side-channel discussion, here. The employment vs housing statements, you either had a typo, or it was a red herring, i am unsure. I feel like this is devolving, perhaps of my own fault, into a god of the gaps argument.

                          • By UncleMeat 2025-04-0321:101 reply

                            My original comment regarding the EEOC was about the impotence of Bostock in modern federal courts because the EEOC is dropping cases of Title 7 workplace discrimination brought by LGBT people. Although the US generally has at-will employment, there are certain reasons for firing people that are prohibited by law.

                            The discussion of housing is separate from that and is instead a point about the fact that LGBT people do not have federal protections in this domain. I thought that my post was very clear. LGBT people do not have any federal protections in many domains (housing for example). They have protections in some domains (employment, via Bostock) and even that is backsliding because of the EEOC's changing behavior.

                            Only adults can consent. The sodomy laws struck down in Lawrence were about consenting and private intercourse, both in general and in the very specific case of Mr. Lawrence.

                            I am extremely uninterested in any discussion that smacks of painting gay people and their relationships as in any way related to child rape.

                            • By genewitch 2025-04-041:401 reply

                              > I thought that my post was very clear. LGBT people do not have any federal protections in many domains (housing for example).

                              https://www.findlaw.com/lgbtq-law/housing-discrimination-pro...

                              > At the federal level, you can find protections for renters in the following:

                                  Federal Fair Housing Act
                                  Bostock ruling
                                  The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) Equal Access Rule

                              • By UncleMeat 2025-04-042:03

                                Like I said, depending on an agency's interpretation of how Bostock's reasoning could be applied to a different law is not protection in the modern Trump administration. This is like you saying that Bostock protects trans people via Title 9 because of the Biden admin's interpretation of Title 9.... which was undone by the Trump administration.

                                Federal legislation, or at least clear jurisprudence, is needed for this protection to meaningfully stick.

                  • By lazyasciiart 2025-04-0423:53

                    > I don't consider sodomy a basic human right, but i could be argued with, i guess.

                    ...

                    > I am unsure why people keep deleting their replies. It is possible to have a reasoned discussion about inflammatory topics.

                    I also think it is possible, but I don't think your first quoted statement here is compatible with that discussion.

              • By JohnKemeny 2025-04-037:16

                > What basic rights do I have that you don't, and where are these codified?

                I'm cheering for you!

          • By SecretDreams 2025-04-034:49

            Does it matter what drives someone to vote for a candidate if the outcome is all the same? It feels like we're discussing manslaughter vs. first degree murder. I don't want to be friends with someone who takes the life of someone else and doesn't feel remorse for it.

            Maybe it's a good theoretical exercise, but life is too short for me to appreciate the various reasons that might drive someone to become an asshole.

      • By rdegges 2025-04-0219:311 reply

        I totally get where you're coming from. But regardless of their reason for voting for a candidate, if the net effect is that 150m+ women lost rights and other horrible outcomes, it's the same as endorsing it.

        • By gmoot 2025-04-033:442 reply

          It's not though.

          Looking at exit pool demographics might help if you're struggling to have any empathy for a Trump voter. They are largely working class and undereducated and astonishingly diverse for a republican candidate in recent memory.

          • By hooverd 2025-04-034:44

            There's an amazing ability for people to not believe Trump is going to do the things he says. See Venezuelan immigrants getting screwed over or the recent tariffs.

          • By Arainach 2025-04-044:44

            Empathy is for people who did something for understandable reasons.

            Trump hurt the poor the last time he was in office. Republicans literally WROTE DOWN ALL THEIR PLANS to hurt the poor and destroy the country well before the elections. Anyone who saw that and still voted for them gets no empathy.

      • By arp242 2025-04-039:581 reply

        First you try to argue tolerance and understanding, and then you say that "most pro-Palestine views are antisemitic" and that you cut off all contact with people who hold those views. Your hypocrisy is astounding and you should be embarrassed.

        • By daft_pink 2025-04-0319:131 reply

          What I was suggesting was to be tolerant of more general views like choosing a political party or candidate and large complicated things, and reserve intolerance for actual directed hatred.

          • By zepolen 2025-04-0319:36

            Yes that's why he called you a hypocrite.

      • By 0dayz 2025-04-033:361 reply

        But.. You're going against your own principles here, you can't say that purity test bad and then have a purity test yourself.

        • By lovich 2025-04-034:521 reply

          Your purity tests are bad. Their purity tests are righteous.

          • By 0dayz 2025-04-038:151 reply

            Aha, thank you so much, I understand now.

            I really should read the philosophical school of "me good, you bad" it sounds so convenient.

            • By lazyasciiart 2025-04-0423:58

              I think you've covered the whole philosophy, the rest is just implementation details.

      • By gopher_space 2025-04-034:16

        > than applying purity tests to your friends and family

        It's more about watching people pivot towards unquestionable evil. "Empathy is a sin" is such a deep, dark line in the sand. I'm not going to just stand there and watch you cross it.

      • By yibg 2025-04-037:47

        I think there is value in trying to understand the other "tribe". If for nothing else, then for practical reasons in figuring out how to defeat the other tribe at the next encounter.

        I also think especially in today's political environment, political beliefs at least partially reflect an individual's core values. In some cases I may not want to associate with people that have fundamentally opposing core values to my own. For example this guy's interviews with his parents: https://www.tiktok.com/@thenecessaryconversation

      • By moolcool 2025-04-0314:25

        > I’m pretty sure that they weren’t voting for those candidates for the express purpose of stripping away those rights and there were other policies and values that they were voting for

        I don't know, man. If they're really your friends, those should be non-negotiable.

      • By thrwaway438 2025-04-0311:40

        Didn't these friends and family essentially apply purity tests to us?

        I've cut off my aunt who still claims the 2020 election was stolen. The data I worked with to support fragile communities was removed/altered in the transition (CDC Social Vulnerability Index). I've already lost my job in the federal purge. I have a [former] coworker who was born intersexed that cannot be legally recognized by the government. I'll likely lose my right to marry due to my aunt's beliefs. My boyfriend will likely lose access to lifesaving medication with cuts to funding. My grandma is paying for hospice care with social security and claiming Trump is fixing the country. I'm renewing my passport; several friends have already left the country.

      • By goatlover 2025-04-035:101 reply

        > I’m pretty sure that they weren’t voting for those candidates for the express purpose of stripping away those rights and there were other policies and values that they were voting for.

        Well, Alabama outlawed abortion except for life of the mother. A federal judge had to rule that the state can't prosecute doctors and reproductive health organizations for helping patients travel out of the state to obtain abortions. The Project 2025 plan is for the Republican controlled Congress to at some point pass the most restrictive federal abortion law they can get away with.

        That is stripping away the rights of women to choose. There are many religious conservatives who support this.

        • By bigstrat2003 2025-04-037:271 reply

          That's one possible framing. But from their perspective, they are defending the lives of innocents from those who wish to do them harm. If one accepts their framing of the issue, that's a righteous cause indeed. Why is your framing accurate, and theirs inaccurate?

          You're doing what so many people do in the abortion debate, and begging the question. You can't simply sidestep deep differences of opinion on moral issues by declaring your position to be right and theirs wrong. It's wilful ignorance of a whole lot of nuance that exists on this topic, nuance that must be engaged with if one wishes to be effective in having a discussion.

          • By goatlover 2025-04-038:44

            Their framing needs to acknowledge that the fetus is part of the mother's body, not an independent life, and that child birth has risks. Thus the autonomy of the mother over her own body has to be part of the discussion. Their framing can't depend on a soul entering at conception, or God/their sacred scripture telling them abortion is murder. That's not a rational or legal basis for compelling other people who don't believe that way.

            If they want to enter a scientific discussion on viability and neural development for when to start placing limits on abortion, and how making victims of rape or incest carry to term is ethical, then we can have a meaningful discussion.

            Otherwise, they can feel free to go have their own theocratic community in the wilderness where they don't choose to have abortion. Also known as Alabama these days, unfortunately for those stuck wandering the wilderness with them.

      • By jccalhoun 2025-04-0314:14

        > I’m pretty sure that they weren’t voting for those candidates for the express purpose of stripping away those rights and there were other policies and values that they were voting for.

        I'm sure there were people who voted for the Republican party in the last USA election for purely economic reasons. However, "anti-woke" policies were absolutely the most important issue for a lot of people. Just this week the attorney general in my state posted an "April Fool's Day Joke" where the "joke" was him standing next to a LGBT flag.

      • By lazyasciiart 2025-04-033:30

        Most views on Palestine are just different priorities or different viewpoints too. You can equally say that not all support for Trump is rooted in misogyny and xenophobia, but most is. Perhaps you should not recommend that other people engage in such tolerance when you won’t.

      • By watwut 2025-04-038:54

        > I think essentially tolerating other peoples opinions and trying to understand where they are coming from is more useful than applying purity tests to your friends and family.

        Most of the time this is just being an enabler, who excuses, makes up rationales and blames "the other side" for not being nice enough to extremists. Especially when we talk with about fascist close groups. People who say this achieve only limitations on the opposition to extremists. They rarely or never manage to move extremist into the center.

        > I’m pretty sure that they weren’t voting for those candidates for the express purpose of stripping away those rights and there were other policies and values that they were voting for.

        Why are you so sure? There are plenty of conservatives who openly talk about it. It is not being tolerant when you decide that no one is allowed to do that observation. You are not being neutral here, you are biasing the discussion toward the extremism when you do it.

      • By tombert 2025-04-0316:441 reply

        > I’m pretty sure that they weren’t voting for those candidates for the express purpose of stripping away those rights and there were other policies and values that they were voting for.

        In some markets, about one third of the entire Trump campaign advertising was fear-mongering about how dangerous LGBTQ people are. They wouldn't have spent so much on this if they didn't think it was a uniquely important to their constituents.

        I think you're unequivocally wrong if you don't think that Conservatives in the US are above voting for a single issue.

        I don't know enough about the Palestine/Israel conflict to be able to make an informed opinion on it, so I won't comment on that.

        • By ignoramous 2025-04-0319:531 reply

          > I don't know enough about the Palestine/Israel conflict to be able to make an informed opinion on it, so I won't comment on that.

          Wise, given the guilt & political climate. But, see also:

            Progressive except Palestine (also known as PEP) is a phrase that refers to organizations or individuals who describe themselves politically as progressive, liberal, or left-wing but who do not express pro-Palestinian sentiment or do not comment on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.
          
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_except_Palestine

          • By tombert 2025-04-0320:09

            The issue is that I feel like there's an awful lot of opinions on this, and it's difficult for me to find objective information on this stuff.

            I tend to be pretty progressive, so it's probable I would be more on the Palestine side, but I try not to express strong opinions on things that I haven't done at least a cursory amount of research on, and I also don't really want to be labeled an antisemite or racist or anything like that.

      • By alkonaut 2025-04-039:291 reply

        > I’m pretty sure that they weren’t voting for those candidates for the express purpose of stripping away those rights and there were other policies and values that they were voting for.

        Sure. But this is that age-old meme: You know those people (most people?) in 1930s Germany who supported the Nazi party but they perhaps weren't really for annexations and genocide. You know what they call those people? Nazis.

        People who voted for Trump are responsible for the fate of Ukraine, the demise of Nato, the fallout with Canada and Mexico, the inevitable inflation and economic turmoil of tariffs etc. And that's of course even if they only voted for Trump because they hold "traditional republican values", or because of single issues like gun rights, migration or taxes.

        > tolerance is necessary

        Tolerance stops at intolerance. You can never tolerate intolerance. Apart from that, politics also relies on a few fundamental things like the reliance on facts and experts, and respect for the rule of law. Obviously you can't ever tolerate "politics" which starts to tamper with either of these. Luckily I can keep a tribe which consists of people who agree with this, which can vote for any party in my parliament, and is 98% of the population. I'd hate to be in the US though where the tribes cut down the middle of the population.

      • By UncleMeat 2025-04-0316:15

        [dead]

      • By curiousgal 2025-04-035:45

        [flagged]

    • By shw1n 2025-04-0221:352 reply

      I actually agree, I don't think people should merely dismiss differences on issues that strike at core values -- I think it's okay to cut friends/family off on huge differences in values. I have actually done this to both left and right-leaning friends.

      But what I'm arguing is that most people do not actually come to these values by way of thinking, but rather by blindly adopting them en masse from their chosen tribe.

      And when they choose not to be open to the possibility they might be wrong, then they have a religion, not a intellectually-driven view.

      This is okay if acknowledged imo, as per this sentence in the piece:

      "If someone is self-aware enough to consciously acknowledge their choice to remain in the bubble, that’s totally fair. I respect it like I’d respect anyone who chooses to participate in a more traditional religion. My issue is when this view is falsely passed off as an intellectually-driven one."

      • By nerptastic 2025-04-0311:25

        I can appreciate comparing these immovable political stances to a "religion".

        One thing I've noticed, as people get more entrenched in their viewpoint, is that they stop accepting the possibility that they're wrong, and this flawed thinking starts to extend to the wildest corners of their position.

        "Well, if I'm right about the person, the person is right about everything too. And anyone who disagrees with me is therefore wrong about EVERYTHING."

        It's a very shallow viewpoint, and some people just refuse to accept that they're wrong sometimes.

      • By KyleJune 2025-04-034:454 reply

        One way people keep themselves in bubbles is by dismissing counter opinions as being tribal or trendy. Some opinions may appear that way because the people that have them seem similar. But it could also be due to them having similar backgrounds that led them to those opinions. For example, most doctors believe in vaccines, but that's not group think, it's based in evidence that they have studied. From the outside, it might seem like group think.

        • By shw1n 2025-04-036:30

          correct, but then those individuals could explain those views

          popularity is not the same as tribal, tribal implies a blind following -- when individuals cannot explain why they believe something

        • By BeFlatXIII 2025-04-0320:59

          My method to discern between beliefs with intellectual backing and those from the community is by presenting them with some bizarro counterargument. If they copy/paste specific phrases and keywords, it's from the community. If they engage with the argument and refute it, then they have given them proper thought.

        • By sfink 2025-04-0314:57

          > For example, most doctors believe in vaccines, but that's not group think, it's based in evidence that they have studied. From the outside, it might seem like group think.

          I'm willing to bet that in most cases, that is groupthink. It's hard to tell, because the conclusion is identical to one based on evidence, so you can't infer from the opinion whether it's groupthink or not.

          Sometimes you can tell by how someone holds a belief. Defensiveness, unwillingness to consider ways in which their chosen belief is not 100% wholly good, or shouting someone down are evidence of groupthink. For example: if someone brings up that in the past some inactive virus vaccines contained live viruses and a doctor claims that it never happened and could never happen, that's either groupthink or just a doctor sick of arguing with uninformed patients who has given up bothering with explaining the intellectual basis of his beliefs.

          My personal suspicion is that the 1% don't exist, that everyone's opinions and beliefs are a mishmash of tribalism and intellectual conclusions, it's just that the balance is very different in different people. I try very hard to make my stances intellectually based and evidence-driven, yet I continually discover that more and more of my deeply held policy positions aren't as clear cut and the real world is more nuanced than I thought.

          It's not like nuance is a binary thing (by definition!)

        • By memonkey 2025-04-035:23

          Ah, for some reason, this is the comment that reminded me specifically of Nietzche's Master-Slave Morality[1].

          1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_morality

    • By pcblues 2025-04-0218:473 reply

      If you remove yourself from a group, how will they change their minds without a dissenting opinion? I had to do it myself eventually, for my own sanity, but I believe this is still a real problem I am no longer addressing among my loved ones.

      • By rdegges 2025-04-0219:272 reply

        In my case, my goal isn't to change anyone's mind. It's to preserve sanity -- I can't in good faith "pretend" to get along and have normal conversations when people are actively engaging in behavior that directly harms myself and others.

        • By fastball 2025-04-034:442 reply

          Could you give an example of behavior that "directly" harmed yourself or others which caused you to sever ties?

          Politics is almost always indirect, usually with multiple levels of indirection.

          • By Philpax 2025-04-035:112 reply

            People proudly voting for parties and policies that demonise trans people, of which I know many. I cannot be your friend in good conscience if you're willing to destroy the lives of my other friends.

            • By bigstrat2003 2025-04-037:291 reply

              That is, by definition, indirect. So that doesn't qualify as "directly harming" anyone, even if your analysis of those policies is otherwise accurate.

              • By HDThoreaun 2025-04-0320:351 reply

                No it isn’t. When people see the anti trans party winning elections they see that as permission to bully trans people. The vote directly leads to abuse.

                • By fastball 2025-04-043:001 reply

                  Yes, it very much is indirect. Direct would be the "anti trans party" passing a law saying that you must bully trans people.

                  • By HDThoreaun 2025-04-0415:581 reply

                    Your definition of direct is terrible

                    • By fastball 2025-04-062:461 reply

                      I'd be happy to hear your definition of direct, which somehow includes a bunch of indirect things happening.

                      • By HDThoreaun 2025-04-064:111 reply

                        voting for trump tells everyone in the country that you dont mind if trans people are abused. This creates a culture that is uninviting even if no one acts poorly beyond the voting. You dont have to physically abuse someone for your actions to have direct consequences

                        • By fastball 2025-04-087:59

                          > voting for trump tells everyone in the country that you dont mind if trans people are abused

                          It literally does not. You can vote for Trump without ever having thought of trans people a day in your life, much less thought of "abusing" them.

                          Additionally and AFAIK, Trump himself has never expressed a desire to abuse trans people, according to a normal and accepted definition of "abuse".

            • By duckfan 2025-04-037:102 reply

              How are their lives being destroyed?

              Being told that you have to follow the same rules as everyone else for e.g. spaces designated to be used solely by the opposite sex, doesn't seem so bad.

              • By Philpax 2025-04-037:161 reply

                I don't believe you're asking this question in good faith, but there are many, many attempts at erasing them from public existence: https://translegislation.com/

                • By bakugo 2025-04-037:281 reply

                  Please define "erasing them from public existence". Provide concrete actions that are actively being taken, not vague concepts of "bad things".

                  • By Philpax 2025-04-037:464 reply

                    I would recommend clicking on the link and scrolling down.

                    • By StefanBatory 2025-04-0317:15

                      I don't think they're arguing in a good faith with you.

                      "“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

                    • By bakugo 2025-04-037:512 reply

                      I did. It's almost nothing but intentionally obtuse terms that mask the actual issues being discussed.

                      For example, what exactly is "gender-affirming care"? Because I suspect that includes giving life-altering drugs to young children.

                      • By rimbo789 2025-04-039:261 reply

                        Gender-affirming care is good and needed to protect kids.

                        • By duckfan 2025-04-0319:07

                          A lot of people strongly believe this to be true. However, the evidence does not support this.

                      • By banqjls 2025-04-039:29

                        [flagged]

                    • By tekla 2025-04-0313:03

                      Not answering question.

                    • By duckfan 2025-04-038:041 reply

                      [dead]

                      • By akimbostrawman 2025-04-038:411 reply

                        "destroying and erasing" trans people = not overtly pushing for there spread and acceptance

                        • By reef_sh 2025-04-0312:381 reply

                          Assuming you're actually arguing in good faith, the "erasing" bit has been quite obvious and blatant.

                          https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/13/us/stonewall-inn-national...

                          Removing people from information about a historical event doesn't look good under any lens.

                          • By duckfan 2025-04-0312:581 reply

                            Doesn't this change make it more historically accurate? In 1969, the year of the Stonewall uprising, the "TQ+" hadn't been invented yet as a cultural concept. The Stonewall Inn was a gay bar and was being targeted for that reason.

                            • By reef_sh 2025-04-0313:201 reply

                              Not really, no, especially considering the involvement of trans people in the event itself.

                              For example, see the section regarding "Zazu Nova" on the current page

                              https://www.nps.gov/ston/learn/photosmultimedia/virtual-fenc...

                              and before the erasure

                              https://web.archive.org/web/20250202042345/https://www.nps.g...

                              • By duckfan 2025-04-0314:061 reply

                                Interesting to see the difference and I agree that's an inaccurate edit. For historical accuracy it should describe Zazu Nova as a gay man who was also a transvestite or drag queen.

                                • By reef_sh 2025-04-0314:431 reply

                                  You do realize that "gay man", "transvestite", "drag queen", and "trans woman" are all different things right?

                                  None of them implies the others. And using any term besides trans woman would be disingenuous, as trans people existed before before 1969, with that exact nomenclature already existing. Just because the letters might not have been attached to an "LGBT" title, neither T or Q are new. Only their increased acceptance and knowledge is.

                                  And deleting references to those is, as you can see, seen as an obvious attempt to walk back on that public perception and acceptance.

                                  While ( as often is ) a very summarized version of the history can be found on the wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history , the sources should lead you to more detailed info, if you do care about learning about the historical accuracy.

                                  • By duckfan 2025-04-0316:38

                                    The Stonewall Inn was a gay bar so we know that Zazu Nova must have been there due to being a gay man. As the previous iteration of the website describes Nova as "queen", "she" and "transgender woman", this means that in 1960s terminology Nova would almost certainly have been understood to be a transvestite, possibly a drag queen.

                                    Sources on the web refer to Nova having involvement with the Street Transvestites Action Revolutionaries group, which fits with that description also.

              • By jccalhoun 2025-04-0314:191 reply

                This is an oversimplified strawman argument. Biological sex is a complex subject. The cultural understanding of sex is complex. If I has a man take my 2 year old daughter to the men's room is that a bad thing? (For the record I don't have any children)

                • By duckfan 2025-04-0316:311 reply

                  I don't think anyone is arguing that you should be barred from taking your hypothetical two-year-old daughter into the men's bathroom if the need arises. That's really not the issue.

                  • By jccalhoun 2025-04-0317:531 reply

                    but I thought "Being told that you have to follow the same rules as everyone else for e.g. spaces designated to be used solely by the opposite sex, doesn't seem so bad."?

                    • By duckfan 2025-04-0318:30

                      Perhaps think on that a bit more then. Consider for example that female-only spaces don't exclude women who are pregnant with male babies.

          • By StefanBatory 2025-04-0314:511 reply

            I am bi, my "friends" would hate LGBT people, constantly talk how we're pedophiles and so on, and kept voting for parties against equal rights.

            • By fastball 2025-04-043:10

              If your "friends" were calling you or your other friends pedophiles (and you are not) then yes, absolutely, you should not be friends with them.

        • By bakugo 2025-04-037:261 reply

          So, basically, you believe that everyone who doesn't strictly adhere to your own ideologies is insane.

          You're pretty much the exact kind of person that the article talks about.

          • By pseudalopex 2025-04-042:00

            They said nothing remotely similar.

      • By lazyasciiart 2025-04-033:41

        [flagged]

      • By manfre 2025-04-033:33

        [flagged]

    • By fatbird 2025-04-0218:45

      Elsewhere in this thread I've said that you can have non-judgemental, solicitous conversations with anyone, just to learn how they feel or think about something.

      But I agree with parent that it's perfectly justifiable to draw lines that limit potential relationships. You're not obligated to welcome everyone or tolerate views in others that have unbearable consequences for yourself. Vote with your feet.

    • By hackeraccount 2025-04-0314:571 reply

      I'm jealous of you. I've got a limited number of family members and friends and find it difficult to get more of either. I don't think I'm in a position to burn them on politics so I'll just have to take them as they are.

      • By sporkit150 2025-04-0320:18

        Wow. This is well put. Thanks. I wonder how those so quick to write others off will reflect on it at the end of life.

    • By HamsterDan 2025-04-0314:511 reply

      +1. I had to cut a lot of people out of my life after seeing the Democrats' response to October 7th. I cannot be friends with anybody who votes for candidates that support exterminating Jews.

      • By qwerpy 2025-04-0318:491 reply

        +1. I'm cutting people out of my life who think it's justified to harass families on the street or write Nazi symbols on their property because they happen to be riding in a particular brand of car. Fascism/Nazism should not be tolerated.

        • By rimbo789 2025-04-0322:13

          I agree that’s why Musk should driven out of society

    • By gedy 2025-04-033:251 reply

      Maybe try understanding that expecting everyone to hold their nose and vote for the dog shit alternative "opposition" candidates provided is not a good litmus test for friendship either.

      • By gedy 2025-04-0316:081 reply

        And I say this with all sincerity: I'm also disappointed in my friends continually voting for Democratic candidates after Obama, as it's clear the DNC will do nothing as long as they can rely on these votes. They put up losing and awful candidates while supposedly our democracy depends on it.

        If I were to cut them off as friends for being part of the problem, that sounds unreasonable right?

        • By themacguffinman 2025-04-0320:131 reply

          Why does it sound unreasonable? If it's problem that affects you deeply enough, if you sincerely believe that they're a core part of that problem, then I don't see why the person you replied to would be opposed to it.

          • By gedy 2025-04-040:11

            Possibly, but I've seen a lot of passionate types also very often have double standards. E.g. "That's different!", etc.

    • By thinkingemote 2025-04-037:52

      The question then becomes how to convert a member of a tribe to ones own correct tribe. It's a very tough question to answer.

      It's like spycraft during the cold war. A double agent must pass as being in both tribes for the good of their country. They literally isolate themselves from their homelands tribe to embed themselves in another. They are forever changed. They can't go back. In other words: to change another changes oneself too. It weakens ones own group identity.

      Almost all people would never want to risk their identity to change another person for the good of their group. It's very risky and very painful.

      Another way that the article suggests is to let people change themselves.

    • By yhavr 2025-04-0310:492 reply

      Lol. "Liberal" people create an echo chamber by eliminate opposing opinions and then are surprised that people elect far-right candidates.

      > Until we can live in a world where fundamental rights are protected and respected

      It wasn't hiding from uncomfortable things, opinions and people, that created the world where you can even think about women or minority rights, or even know how to write to express your opnions. So this approach will not create the world you described.

      • By Dansvidania 2025-04-0311:17

        indeed. This kind of attitude is contrary to what is needed to produce the sort of world desired.

        The conceptualization of what fundamental even means is very much subjective, so posing such a condition to dialogue is, in principle, the negation of possibility of improvement on either side.

        this is the core kernel of what a tribe even is in my opinion: pose a subjective condition, divide people based on it.

      • By havblue 2025-04-0316:15

        The subtle art of not giving a f** had a great chapter on the importance of deciding your values, that is, what's important to you. The parent advice clearly stated what's important: living in a world where fundamental rights are protected and respected.

        Clearly defined values are fine until we get more specific though. What values? Whose responsibility? And what's holding is back from achieving what we want even if our party is in charge? Is it a matter of excluding people who disagree with us? More money? Or is the utopian vision we're attempting not presently achievable?

        So is an agreement on fundamental rights for everyone what you want to live your life on? Or do you have other priorities in the meantime where you can agree with people on more immediate matters?

    • By hattmall 2025-04-034:015 reply

      How does having less friends actually benefit you though? It just seems dumb, because presumably you were friends for some reason.

      I don't see how cutting them out creates a positive. It's like "Javy thinks men can become women", now I have one less person to play disc golf with.

      What's the point of that? People can have different opinions, it's not their only character trait.

      • By petersellers 2025-04-034:41

        I don't have friends for the sake of "having friends". I choose the people I want to hang out with because I enjoy their company and like/respect them. Being around them makes me happy.

        Similarly, people I dislike (rude or mean people, for example) make me unhappy when I'm around them. Cutting them out of my life is a net benefit there too, because I'm happier without them.

      • By kerkeslager 2025-04-034:44

        It seems to me that when some of your friends want to imprison, institutionalize, or straight-up murder some of your other friends, not taking a side and standing up for the latter group of friends is being a shitty friend.

        And maybe "How does this benefit me?" isn't the right question to be asking in this situation.

        "Moderates" always like to speak in vague terms as if it's not literal murder being proposed by one side. I literally know a guy who is accumulating firearms, has bumper stickers that say "kill your local pedophile", and thinks all trans people are pedophiles. This is not a person I am going to be friends with just because we play the same kind of guitar music.

      • By theshackleford 2025-04-035:13

        > how does having less friends benefit you?

        Quality over quantity for a start.

        > people can have different opinions

        Not every opinion deserves the same level of tolerance, respect or acceptance. If someone I know starts goose-stepping I’m not going to write it off a “just a difference in opinion.”

      • By kerkeslager 2025-04-0316:50

        The other comment I made here was flagged, though it very clearly doesn't have anything in violation of the rules. It's clear that people here are using flagging to try to censor opinions they don't like.

    • By tombert 2025-04-0316:37

      I haven't talked to my grandmother since Trump won the first time in 2016.

      It wasn't just that she voted for him, but the fact that she actively supported all of his policies around immigration, including mass deportations that would have included my wife (who was on DACA at the time). She has also said some extremely disturbing stuff about what should happen to gay people that I don't even know that I can post without breaking some form of TOS, which would be horrible already, but slightly worse to me because my sister is gay.

      It's easy to say "just be neutral and don't talk about politics around her", but there are some issues with that.

      First, you don't know my grandmother; no matter how much I try and avoid any political subject she will keep bringing it up. She will divert a conversation about my job as a software engineer to somehow a rant about how Mexicans are stealing American jobs (this actually happened). I could just roll my eyes and bite my tongue, but this brings me to my next point:

      Second, neutrality isn't neutral. I don't really know who started this myth that somehow avoiding the subject is "not taking a side", it's just a lazy way to endorse the status quo. If I keep trying to be amicable with people who actively want my wife to be deported, then that's sort of signaling to my wife that I don't give a shit about what happens to her. I don't want to signal that, because it's not true. At that point, my only option is to either stop talking to my grandmother or talk to her and constantly push back she says something racist or horrible, which isn't productive.

      Before you give me shit over this, all of you do this. You all draw the line somewhere. You probably all draw it at different points than I do, but you absolutely do draw the line. If your best friend suddenly joined the Klan and became the Grand Wizard, you probably wouldn't continue being friends with them, even if you could avoid talking politics, because that would signal that you're ok with their racism. You also probably wouldn't be friends with Jeffrey Dahmer even if you could avoid the whole "killing and eating people" topic.

      As it stands, I don't really feel bad for cutting her off. I absolutely do not make a concession for age on this. If you're going to live as a grownup in 2025 then it's not wrong to judge someone by 2025 standards. I don't give a fuck what the world was like when you grew up, you have to live in the world as it is now.

    • By bayarearefugee 2025-04-0218:572 reply

      [flagged]

      • By thinkingemote 2025-04-039:19

        Whataboutism is outsider tribe X also does thing B therefore B is not to be argued about.

        Instead maybe consider that it's thinking in tribes that's the issue at root.

        Personally I think it's impossible to stop being in a tribe. One should, if free, only be able to choose the tribe to join. We can't choose not to join a tribe. Most people either are not free to choose or not willing to consider that they can choose. Freedom to choose a tribe is very scary.

        Looking at how other countries do politics might help. For example did you know that conspiracy and paranoia is a characteristic strategy used in American politics? It's not used as much in other parts of the world.

        It's incredibly difficult for a person to see themselves as being paranoid or to believe in a conspiracy theory. But paranoid people who believe in conspiracy theories make great tribe members. It is literally a way to make people think of things as "us vs them"

      • By vixen99 2025-04-036:34

        Priceless! Maybe you should move to the UK. Might be a job opening on the Guardian newspaper where you'd be welcomed with open arms. They think much the same about the British Conservatives and as for the new Reform Party - I guess they are beyond contempt.

    • By skellington 2025-04-033:39

      [flagged]

    • By horns4lyfe 2025-04-050:53

      [flagged]

    • By curiousgal 2025-04-0218:452 reply

      [flagged]

      • By bigstrat2003 2025-04-037:401 reply

        > The only people I have seen preaching moderation and apolitical discussion are those who voted for a particular candidate and either regret it and are too proud to admit it or are in peak cognitive dissonance.

        Hello. I preach moderation and apolitical discussion. You were vague about what "particular candidate" you meant, but if you meant Trump I didn't vote for him. In fact I did not cast a vote for any presidential candidate this year because none of them was someone I wanted in office. So, you now have seen at least one person who does not match your description.

        I preach moderation and apolitical discussion because the toxicity of political discussion is tearing our country in two. It is the single biggest threat our society faces today. If we cannot learn to resolve our differences (which starts with genuine attempts to reach each other even when others' actions seem reprehensible to us), this country will die. People do not, as a rule, choose evil. They are often mistaken about what is good, or disagree with each other on the best way to achieve good ends. But to round that off as "they are evil" is intellectually lazy and toxic to a civilized society.

        > You cannot not discuss politics when the political scene that dictates your daily life is governed by objectively evil people and subjectively less evil people on the other side of the aisle.

        If people were objectively evil, they would be considered evil by all. The fact that this has not happened is by itself proof that these people are not objectively evil, and that their evil is a matter of subjective views. If you wish to change others' views, the first step must be to recognize this so that you can formulate a plan of persuasion. Blasting people as "objectively evil" feels good, but accomplishes nothing.

        • By goatlover 2025-04-039:33

          > I preach moderation and apolitical discussion because the toxicity of political discussion is tearing our country in two. It is the single biggest threat our society faces today. If we cannot learn to resolve our differences

          No, MAGA led by Trump, assisted by the Heritage Foundation and the tech billionaire Yarvin disciples are the biggest threat, because they have power and are in the process of implementing an autocratic takeover. It's crazy to me how many moderate, apolitical people don't see this. But I was that way a few months ago and started paying attention.

          > They are often mistaken about what is good, or disagree with each other on the best way to achieve good ends.

          I don't think there is any agreement to be had anymore. They don't care about the Constitution, they just want a king/CEO to force things through. What can you say about a president talking about a third term, making Canada a 51st state, claiming Greenland will 100% join the US, saying allies have been ripping us off, deporting people without due process because they had suspicious looking tattoos, calling for impeachment of judges because they ruled against Trump. Refusing to pay agencies what Congress already approved. Forcing big law agencies into making deals.

          Rand Paul gave a speech tonight about how the president doesn't have the power to tax the American people, which is what tariffs are. MAGA is out to win the culture and political war. Permanently. Wake up.

      • By shw1n 2025-04-0221:36

        agreed actually, I'm not preaching moderation or apolitical-ness, I'm arguing for merely acknowledging when a view is reason-based vs tribal in nature

        see my reply to rdegges

    • By wileydragonfly 2025-04-033:19

      Have they eaten two plates of food and enjoyed two drinks and then announced, “I’m a proud republican and support Trump 1000%?” Because that’s what we’re getting and we’re banning neighbors and friends we’ve had for 25 years over it.

  • By talkingtab 2025-04-0313:0819 reply

    The crucial question is what is "politics"? Are personalities politics? No. Are parties? No. Are inflammatory issues about race, sex or gender or political correctness or immigration? No!

    Here is politics:

    Are common American citizens able to afford and obtain reasonable health care?

    Are common Americans paid a living wage? Can one person earn enough to have a family?

    Do our children have a reasonable opportunity to grow, have a productive life and have a family if they want one?

    Is the financial situation getting better for Americans or is the difference between earnings and expenditures growing larger. (Hint do we use code words like 'inflation' instead of calling it like it is).

    A functioning democracy requires that the common people are enable to formulate and enact laws that they believe are in their best interests. Do the majority of the laws enacted in all the states meet this requirement?

    A functioning democracy requires that the common people are able to use the law and courts to right wrongs. Are the common people able to use/afford access to the courts when wrongs are committed.

    Do the common news media act as a forum for the common concerns and issues of the People. (Here's looking at you NYT).

    Cuo Bono? If the laws passed are not in the interests of the People, and the courts are not accessible by People, who benefits? If the news media are not a forum for the interests of the People, whose interests do they represent. (Here's looking at you Jeff Bezos).

    If advertising funds our primary sources of news, whose interests are represented.

    Those are simply things you should discuss with your friends. They are questions not answers. This is not rocket science.

    • By cle 2025-04-0313:336 reply

      These are real problems. But they are also loaded questions, if someone asked me these at a party I would view them as looking for confirmation, and not seeking truth. There's nothing wrong with that, but the author's goal is curiosity and truth seeking, and I'm skeptical that most of these questions align with that goal.

      • By hn_throwaway_99 2025-04-0317:122 reply

        The ironic thing to me is that the author essentially makes this the main point right from the get go:

        > The insidious nature of this question comes from the false representation as earnest, intellectual discourse. Many who ask it may truly believe they’re engaging earnestly, but their responses quickly reveal an angle more akin to religious police.

        As you point out, nearly all of talkingtab's questions are loaded. At the very least, talkingtab essentially says outright what they expect the "correct" answer to be, e.g I'm baffled why talkingtab seems to think "inflation" is a "code word". I speak English, and inflation is "telling it like it is" based on the simple definition of the word.

        As another example, for this question:

        > Are common Americans paid a living wage? Can one person earn enough to have a family?

        What happens if a response is "No, I don't believe that cashiers at McDonald's deserve to be paid a 'living wage', because I don't believe that job is intended to support a family on its own"? To emphasize, I'm not saying what the "right" answer is, but I do believe reasonable people can disagree over what constitutes a living wage and which jobs deserve to be paid it.

        If anything, talkingtab's post just highlights to me the author's specific point about political "tribes" vs political views, and if anything has convinced me more that the author's view is spot on here.

        • By JumpCrisscross 2025-04-0318:441 reply

          > the author essentially makes this the main point right from the get go

          Then find better friends. The author is essentially complaining about the quality of his friends.

          • By hn_throwaway_99 2025-04-0321:021 reply

            Ah, yes, those pesky humans and their cognitive biases...

            • By JumpCrisscross 2025-04-047:09

              > Ah, yes, those pesky humans and their cognitive biases...

              This is sort of meaningless without citation of the bias you claim.

              In case you're being serious: yes; you can find friends who won't shit on you for your views.

        • By keybored 2025-04-0318:40

          My read is that talkingtab’s agenda here is to focus the conversation on what politics is. Rather than being this thing you discuss with people (or not) it’s about injustice against the majority. So why does that get brought up? Because with the OP it’s easy to end up concluding that politics to the average person is something you choose to idly or deliberately or max-brainpower chatter with other people about. Then it can be easily thought that it’s just about differing policy positions. But talkingtab is saying that it’s more confrontational than that.

          So why are the questions “loaded”? Because as you can see with your own eyes, they have their own political agenda. Part of politics is defining what the the agenda should be—and what should be considered political.

          As you can imagine, people who think they are arguing or fighting on behalf of people making a living wage etc. want to put that message out there. They are not discussing abstract concepts or competing in some open-mindedness competition or some rationality contest. It matters to them.

          > If anything, talkingtab's post just highlights to me the author's specific point about political "tribes" vs political views, and if anything has convinced me more that the author's view is spot on here.

          You are even more convinced. Yet there is nothing here that suggests that talkingtab is tribal in the sense of what the OP is talking about. None. Is this received opinion or opinion born from studying like a monk for 10 years? You don’t know.

          You also say that talkingtab is presenting what the “correct” answer is. Yes, according to them. Again, is it really tribalism? Or is it conviction as well as the polemic tone of the whole comment? And having conviction doesn’t mean that you cannot conceive of people having other opinions, or being intellectually unable to present counter-arguments to their own position. Again, no proof of tribalism is presented.

          And this focus on tribalism presupposes that the end goal is to find your tone. Alternatively you can look at their arguments. Maybe they want to change the flaws they perceive in the world.

      • By InDubioProRubio 2025-04-0314:016 reply

        I always wondered, what those Pinkerton man thought, when they attacked union members with machine guns for their masters in the guilded age.

        • By rpd9803 2025-04-0314:04

          They thought "Well, I guess this makes me one of those people for whom "Not talking about politics with Friends" becomes a core tenent to my personal philosophy."

        • By analog31 2025-04-0314:341 reply

          They thought that the union members were criminals.

          • By pixl97 2025-04-0315:24

            Without the ability to realize that it's politics that defines what a criminal is.

        • By exoverito 2025-04-0315:26

          The original argument put forth by capitalists was that unionized workers were effectively engaging in economic sabotage by striking and blockading factories.

          That said the Pinkertons were basically mercenaries akin to organized crime, so probably viewed things in terms of might makes right.

        • By cle 2025-04-0515:04

          This is about having political conversations with friends, not with people shooting at you with machine guns.

        • By int_19h 2025-04-0423:51

          They thought, "if I do a good job, I'm going to get a bonus"

        • By sylos 2025-04-0318:19

          Unfortunately they're thinking the same thing today.

      • By keybored 2025-04-0318:08

        They are both real problems and loaded questions. Okay. Ostensibly the point of politics is to solve problems that people have. That will lead to people putting forth what they think the problems are. We simply don’t have time to theorize every concievable potential problem and then, one by one, painstakingly (with our minds wide open like an open brain surgery) consider whether they are in fact problems that people have.

        All of these pointed questions can also be disputed.

      • By Workaccount2 2025-04-0315:053 reply

        The strawmanning of arguments from both sides is so intense that most people lay in a bed composed entirely of strawman arguments. I firmly blame the media above all for this, but individuals carry a burden to for not trying to remake their bed.

        It took me 15 years to to remake my bed into somewhat rational arguments, and still I find lots of hay in there. Generally both sides, or all sides really, want the same things and disagree on how to get there. And the truth is there is almost never an obvious or clear way to get there. It's fractal pros and cons all the way down.

        • By matwood 2025-04-0315:122 reply

          > but individuals carry a burden to for not trying to remake their bed

          In what way? I turn on Fox sometimes and it's not that it's slanted, but it's just a stream of lies and BS. I've watched a bunch of Trump's speeches and in addition to being incoherent, he says the same lies and BS all the way down. Yesterday's tariff speech was a great example.

          I don't consider myself progressive (though the MAGA right would think me so), but where do I go to try and 'remake [my] bed'?

          • By ablob 2025-04-0315:361 reply

            I think what's meant is that you need to be open to changing your opinion and manner of approach to things. To stay with the analogy: when you "remake" your bed and it ends up the same, chances are that you didn't try to improve on its design.

            By turning on Fox sometimes (provided it's not your main source) you might already not fall into the category of people not trying to remake their bed.

            • By freejazz 2025-04-0316:50

              Wait, we're designing bedding now? Not just remaking our beds? What a strained analogy that when you 'remake' your bed and it's the 'same' (why would it be different?) then you didn't improve the design?? Even more shocking is that you ran with this as opposed to realizing that these were warning signs that either your fundamental argument is ridiculous, or your analogy is.

          • By nomdep 2025-04-0315:541 reply

            Well, the first thing is to realize CNN is also just a stream of lies and BS. Every media news organization in the world has become (they always were?) pure garbage.

            Listening to first-hand sources is the way, I guess, but also remembering they can be lying as well, so be vigilant.

            • By MrMcCall 2025-04-0316:131 reply

              It's true, because all the upper levels of ALL large media organizations have been infiltrated by big-moneyed conservatives.

              CNN and NBC weren't always as bad as they are now, but their descent has been obvious and dramatic.

              Some of them still employ democrats to some minimal extent, such as Jamelle Bouie at the NYT, but that's merely subterfuge, lest their bent be glaringly obvious.

              If someone can name a large organization that is an exception to my first paragraph, I would be happy to learn of them.

        • By goatlover 2025-04-0315:171 reply

          > Generally both sides, or all sides really, want the same things and disagree on how to get there.

          No, that is just not true. For example, do you think Putin and his supporters wanted a functioning democracy in Russia and independent Ukraine? No, they wanted someone functioning as a dictator to restore Russia's cold war territory and influence, and they wanted to undermine western democracies that stood in their way.

          History does not support your claim that everyone wants the same things. Some people want power and strong man to take over the government. We see that with the Trump administration. The religious conservatives want to use that to make America a Christian nation. The billionaire libertarians want to use it to deregulate their industries and run the government like a corporation. And Trump wants to act unilaterally to bring about his vision of being seen as some great figure. They have illiberal aims.

          • By Workaccount2 2025-04-0315:311 reply

            I'm speaking about the collectives, not the individuals. There are always deranged individuals and some of them, many of them, manage to get in power. But the ideological collectives all have pretty much the same core goals. Needs met, population happy.

            • By dfxm12 2025-04-0315:591 reply

              What's your threshold where an "individual" becomes a "collective"? Certainly billionaire libertarians, religious conservatives, Putin and his supporters and the Trump administration (along with the judges he's appointed, the people in congress and state governments who ran on his platform and the 10s of millions of Americans who voted for them) are not individuals...

              They also very obviously want different things compared to others.

              • By Workaccount2 2025-04-0317:311 reply

                Shy of a few fringe groups, I am not aware of any large suffering & death collectives. Every large collective is trying to achieve a better life for it's adherents, and is always welcoming to those who want to join. Christains might see living is the light of Jesus as the ideal life, and while not for everyone, you should at least be able to understand why they feel that way (as opposed to a religion of self inflicted torture).

                Remember the goal here is not to become sympathetic to Trump, or Putin, or Sanders, or Netanyahu, or Islam. The goal is to have an accurate understanding of them, so that when you form arguments against them, you are actually attacking bedrock and not just straw.

                • By goatlover 2025-04-0318:35

                  > Christains might see living is the light of Jesus as the ideal life, and while not for everyone, you should at least be able to understand why they feel that way (as opposed to a religion of self inflicted torture).

                  Yes, but also we've seen how they've behaved in the past when they had vast political power in Europe. And we see what the goals of the Heritage Foundation is with Project 2025. There have always been a decent number of conservative Christians who want prayer, the bible and ten commandments in school. Who don't want legal abortion or gay marriage. And the more power they have, the more they would restrict. They also tend to believe in a lot of conspiracy theories, like the Democratic Party being controlled by satanists and communists, who have also infiltrated the "Deep State".

                  So you can imagine how those beliefs play out with enough political power.

        • By slt2021 2025-04-0316:033 reply

          politics, especially international geopolitics is a zero-sum game. The game of competition for limited resources and markets. Because resources are limited, the pie is fixed, and this makes it zero sum game.

          Although there is a way to frame political alliances as a win-win when two parties increase their share at a cost of some other third party losing theirs.

          Because of that, the arguments will always be straw-man, because people want to win resources, not to argue in good faith.

          Any political issue can be framed in terms of zero sum game, if you look at the whole picture

          • By Vegenoid 2025-04-0316:261 reply

            This is incorrect. There are few physical resources that we have reached the limit of, such that one entity’s gain is necessarily another’s loss. There are also a great many things of value that aren’t simply raw resources, for which the pie will never be fixed, because the pie is made by humans and can be made bigger or smaller.

            This zero-sum narrative is only true in a world of no growth, where all resources are being fully utilized to maximum effect. That is very far from the world we live in, where there is enormous room for additional extraction, creation, and efficient utilization of resources.

            • By slt2021 2025-04-0317:272 reply

              the zero sum will always be true because of the fundamental law of physics: Law of preservation of energy.

              Everything in the economy thats worth producing/consuming costs energy and labor. Energy and labor is not free.

              You may be conflating win-win with debt-based growth, where economy can grow at the cost of running fiscal deficit and accumulating debt. Sure the economy and market can grow, but the debt will also grow and the inflation will cancel out the nominal growth

              • By hnaccount_rng 2025-04-0317:571 reply

                We use about 1 part in 10000 of the sun's energy deposit on earth... No, we are _really_ far away from preservation of energy being a limiting problem

                • By slt2021 2025-04-0317:59

                  yes, the only way to increase economy without stealing from someone else is technological advancement and efficiency improvements (which amounts to R&D spend = $$$$)

              • By Vegenoid 2025-04-045:53

                Again, the law of preservation of energy only makes things zero sum between entities if all the energy is already being used at maximum efficiency, which it isn't.

                For a simple example, consider farming, where plants are used to harness the energy of the sun and capture it in a form useful to humans. Yes, there are inputs that go into it, but the output is more valuable (economically and otherwise) than the material input, because the plant also captured a bunch of solar energy that would have otherwise done nothing useful for anyone's economy. My economy has now grown, without having to take or go into debt from some other economy.

                Even in a scenario where I do take on debt to get the materials/water/whatever, the value that is created is greater than the debt taken on. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't do it.

                Humans create value by harnessing more energy and using it more efficiently for things that humans (and therefore economies) value. This is an ongoing process, with a long way to go.

          • By alwa 2025-04-0317:201 reply

            I guess I can interpret the strongest form of your argument to suggest that resources and markets have a specific level of economically relevant supply at any specific time, which I suppose is an empirical claim that’s true. I feel like recent days’ trade policy earthquakes might operate along a similar line of reasoning: there’s only so much, “they’ve” been getting better off, which means they’ve been “taking” from the US, so the US is taking back.

            In the same sense it’s true that there are only so many bushels of seed corn left after the winter. At the moment, we can squabble over how to divide the fixed supply. I could take all the corn, eat half, keep the rest for myself to plant this season. Or, if I’ve already got enough to plant all my land, and you’ve got more land and nothing else to do, I could invest some of my leftover corn with you and we can all have double the harvest in a few months… when the supply will have dramatically expanded, assuming I don’t treat it as a zero-sum game right now. Or I could focus on “winning” right now, and we’ll both be poorer after the harvest than we would have been otherwise.

            While I agree that you could frame most any political issue in zero-sum terms, I feel like the blind spot is the same: it tallies the score based on assumptions fixed in time, and it takes a pessimistic view of cooperative potential, of humans’ power to influence the constraints themselves.

            • By slt2021 2025-04-0317:321 reply

              the zero sum will always be true because of the fundamental law of physics: Law of preservation of energy / Law of preservation of matter.

              Everything in the economy thats worth producing/consuming costs energy and labor. Energy and labor is not free.

              Any free lunch one can have in the economy is only possible in nominal terms, when your economy/market grows, but your sovereign debt and fiscal deficit also grows and in real terms, after inflation there is no real growth.

              if you look at the core, the bottom of the economics it is just pure physics: The flow and exchange of energy and materials, labor and capital. The fight is over a distribution of the flows between various factions

              • By alwa 2025-04-041:10

                Aren’t we so, so, so far from physical limits though? To the point that we speak of likely energy reserves in terms of centuries of consumption at current levels, even if we only get around to proving the next couple decades’ worth at a time?

                If Musk et al get their wishes, and we become “spacefaring civilization” or whatever—aren’t the conceivable physical limits of known reality so far away as to be irrelevant?

                And isn’t the story of the industrial era one of compounding productivity per unit of labor?

          • By goatlover 2025-04-0316:181 reply

            That's not how economics works. The pie is not fixed, it tends to grow over time as there's more trade between countries and their economies get bigger. The global economic pie has increased a massive amount over the past century.

            • By slt2021 2025-04-0317:261 reply

              the trade has increased because jobs have been offshored, corporations have been running labor cost arbitrage and making a profit from a difference in labor cost in US vs elsewhere

              • By freeone3000 2025-04-0318:43

                And as with most arbitrages, costs have lowered as a result. It means a piece of technology with thousands of individual parts can be in your hand for $200. Labor efficiency differences have resulted in an explosion of value-for-dollar for the American consumer.

      • By paulsutter 2025-04-0315:181 reply

        Actually they make great conversion. Preface with, “Why is neither party talking about…” and you’ll find that most people agree.

        • By immibis 2025-04-0315:541 reply

          Then lead them to the understanding that both parties are right-wing? (support the current economic system, support mass-murdering brown people overseas, support embezzling for personal gain as long as they don't get caught, etc)

          • By aerostable_slug 2025-04-0316:071 reply

            > support embezzling for personal gain as long as they don't get caught

            If you think this is a strictly right-wing characteristic you are hopelessly partisan.

            • By immibis 2025-04-0319:51

              Notice that I said both parties do it.

      • By moolcool 2025-04-0314:194 reply

        [flagged]

        • By throw10920 2025-04-0314:397 reply

          > fascism and fascist ideologies

          This is political dog-whistling. As Orwell pointed out almost eight decades ago: "The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’."[1] and is now obviously only a dog-whistle for fellow ideologues. This does not belong on HN.

          [1] https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

          • By wholinator2 2025-04-0315:064 reply

            I agree the term is vague. But what then would you have us call it? The whole, constitutional crisis, outright flouting of the rule of law, suspension of due process/disappearing of political enemies in the streets type thing that is verifiably happening right now. Are you requesting that the word fascism be banned from HN? Have you seen the videos of legal college students being shoved into unmarked vans by unmarked and masked officers of the law? What do you call that? The talk of a third term?

            I'd love to say, "he's just blustering", it's what my father said but he's enacted just about every thing he said. Should he begin speaking about a third term i don't think we have the luxury to ignore that anymore. To annex our nearby "allies" who've now become a united front opposing any economic relationship. What is that called? What would you have us say?

            • By NoMoreNicksLeft 2025-04-0315:462 reply

              >But what then would you have us call it?

              Most people say "fascist" when at most they mean "authoritarian". But maybe the latter's not scary enough for the boogeyman you want to evoke. Sometimes they say it when they should say demagoguery (which is, in my opinion, more than alarming enough of a word in ways that I can forgive people for feeling "populist" isn't). Quite often though, people merely mean "distasteful", but since tastes vary quite a bit, this might not alarm anyone at all.

              >suspension of due process/disappearing of political enemies

              You mean that when they send people back to their home countries because they're no longer welcome here?

              >The talk of a third term?

              From a man so old and in such ill health it seems quite likely he won't survive his second term? Mostly he's just trying to get a rise out of you. I don't like bullies, but when they do the "made you flinch" thing, part of me wants to smirk. Couldn't you just this once not flinch?

              >To annex our nearby "allies"

              He did it in the most asshole way possible, but offering them a proportionate number of votes in our Senate is hardly the insult they make it out to be. Especially when they're all dragged along by our policy already and just have no say in it whatsoever. "We want you to join the richest and most powerful nation on Earth and the benefits are truly too long to list" shouldn't send them running away screaming in terror.

              • By alxjrvs 2025-04-0316:161 reply

                >You mean that when they send people back to their home countries because they're no longer welcome here?

                > I don't like bullies, but when they do the "made you flinch" thing, part of me wants to smirk.

                You like bullies, actually - you just don't like thinking you like bullies.

                • By NoMoreNicksLeft 2025-04-0320:081 reply

                  Then why does part of me always wish you were clever enough to not flinch, just once, and show them up?

                  I keep waiting for it to happen. Hoping. And yet you always disappoint.

                  • By moolcool 2025-04-041:34

                    When he actually hits you, it makes sense to flinch when he flails his limbs. He did cause the stock market to tank literally yesterday.

              • By goatlover 2025-04-0316:261 reply

                > You mean that when they send people back to their home countries because they're no longer welcome here?

                Illegally, without due process. That's why a federal judge has been ruling against them on this. They also lied that everyone deported was part of a Venezuelan gang (or at least that they had proper grounds for thinking so, thus the importance of due process), and they lied that it was some kind of invasion.

                • By NoMoreNicksLeft 2025-04-0320:15

                  >Illegally, without due process.

                  And what process, exactly, is due? Why is it due? My understanding of the term is that due process is mostly that because everyone gets the same... if some are getting different treatment, this raises due process concerns. If there was never any process designed, or if it has been abandoned. The bureaucracy can change the rules to some extent, they are not written in stone.

                  >That's why a federal judge has been ruling against them on this.

                  No one believes that, not even the left. They're happy that it's occurring of course, and they're clever enough to pretend that they've got real arguments... but in the back of their minds they know that the federal judge would rule against this no matter what, because the Trump administration is doing it. After all, for a full 2 months afterward they had people who were claiming the election was rigged and hoping that somehow that it would be invalidated. Their imaginations ran wild with ever-more-fanciful schemes. Now that's not happening, they've moved on and believe their in some sort of counter-coup.

                  >and they lied that it was some kind of invasion.

                  What's the definition of "invasion"? If an enemy were to invade with tanks and guns, they'd be wiped out. A clever enemy might just encourage its people to "migrate". To foment a sort of economic war. Or the word invasion can even have more metaphorical or casual usage. If someone says that mice have invaded their home do you complain that the word "invade" is wrong because the mice aren't wearing military uniforms and trying to accomplish some general's strategy?

            • By throw10920 2025-04-0623:50

              > I agree the term is vague. But what then would you have us call it?

              That right there is an admission that you're just using the term as a generic "person bad" term, which is bad in itself. It's evil to intentionally conflate and manipulate language to serve political goals. You would object to taking a person that's known to be a Nazi and calling them autistic, or vice-versa. That you are not objecting here is malicious.

            • By oeitho 2025-04-0316:03

              You can't call Trump a fascist, he has yet to have the trains run on time.

            • By ablob 2025-04-0315:41

              Why not give it a new name? We could do so with Marxism, Leninism, Maoism, etc. There is no reason we have to stop giving these phenomena a new name. You can always talk about the similarities, but if you mix it carelessly you'll lose the differences.

          • By Aeolun 2025-04-0314:561 reply

            Even if you think it’s a dog whistle, Facism does mean something and it’s rather more accurate to use it now than say, 30 years ago.

            • By throw10920 2025-04-0315:016 reply

              No, it does not mean anything. Different people from the same side of the political spectrum define it differently, let alone different parts of the spectrum. If you don't define it before using it, it's a dog-whistle, full stop.

              • By soupfordummies 2025-04-0316:111 reply

                I've heard this dismissal a good bit often ("that's just a nothing word that means 'bad thing I don't like' ") but that's really just not true.

                It has been consistently defined through the decades, especially during the 20th century. Here's one common example you can find from the 1983 American Heritage Dictionary and it sounds pretty familiar:

                "A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."

                • By Aeolun 2025-04-040:16

                  I kinda feel like that would work just as well with ‘right’ replaced by ‘left’.

                  If anything, this definition is a better argument for the parents’s point.

                  Dictatorship, belligerent (North Korea style) and nationalism seem much more important features than left or right.

              • By inejge 2025-04-0316:05

                One could do worse than using Eco's Ur-Fascism[1] as the starting point. The man had personal experience and he could write (oh how he could write.) However, I'd expect that some would dismiss him as an inveterate lefty (he wasn't), so we're back on square one.

                [1] https://archive.org/details/umberto-eco-ur-fascism/umberto-e...

              • By wholinator2 2025-04-0315:07

                Dog whistle for what? Please define what it is a dog whistle for. Maybe in that context you'll find the common definition understood by people using it

              • By anamexis 2025-04-0315:07

                Speaking of words having meanings, what exactly do you mean by dog-whistle here? I understand dog-whistle to mean coded language for a different concept.

              • By ryandrake 2025-04-0315:501 reply

                The word is starting to be used by the left in the same way the right uses "woke": It's become watered down and an over-used way to simply say "anything my side doesn't like".

                - Climate change is real: "woke"

                - Firing people in government: "fascist"

                - Compassion and fairness: "woke"

                - Cruelty toward political enemies: "fascist"

                - Expertise-driven and reason-driven policies: "woke"

                - Stacking government positions with loyal cronies: "fascist"

                - Rights for women, minorities, gay people, and so on: "woke"

                - Handouts to corporations: "fascist"

                They've become vague words that mean the same thing: "Politics I don't like"

                • By moolcool 2025-04-0316:03

                  This reminds me of the joke about how republicans will defend criminal conspiracy by saying "Wow so it's illegal to make plans with friends now".

          • By treyd 2025-04-0315:16

            In the academic community the term still has a useful meaning and is often used appropriately in those circles.

            But you could substitute neoreactionary in GP and it would still be referring to real bloggers that are treated as if they're making legitimate and justifiable arguments.

            It's a serious concern, I think it's good to criticize this tendency.

          • By laidoffamazon 2025-04-0316:01

            This is the opposite of a dog whistle it's entirely explicit. There are people being thrown into vans for speech right now. There are law firms that are negotiating to lift bills of attainder for their prior political litigation. They are _literally_ throwing people in El Salvadorean prisons without due process, including people that were in this country legally.

          • By moolcool 2025-04-0315:582 reply

            You do not have to look very far to find prominent voices on the right who are apologetically anti-democracy.

            • By dragonwriter 2025-04-0316:00

              Or even unapologetically.

            • By slt2021 2025-04-0316:071 reply

              if what you mean by anti-democracy, is government oppression, then the left and right both use this equally.

              there is only one continuum: liberty from government oppression, or lack thereof.

              I hope you don't seriously consider the oligopoly of two parties and small circle of connected elites, dependent on financial backing from ultra high net worth oligarchs, corporations, special lobbying groups - a democracy. This is not democracy, it is plutocracy (the power of capital/rich)

              • By MrMcCall 2025-04-0316:151 reply

                There is bad, and there is worse, far worse.

                And, it's a kleptocracy, more and more, for a very long time now.

                • By slt2021 2025-04-0317:42

                  US is not a democracy. Trump got like ~77 mln votes, which roughly compares to 23% of the population of 340 mln people. so Trump doesn't even represent the a quarter of US population.

                  other countries are more democratic, in a sense that winning candidate represents larger share of people living there

          • By pixl97 2025-04-0315:221 reply

            Eh, I really do call BS on that.

            Umberto Eco's 14 tenants of fascism still stands strong and is highly visible in modern discourse.

        • By analog31 2025-04-0314:232 reply

          Every rationalist movement eventually ends up at odds with rational people.

          • By TeMPOraL 2025-04-0314:423 reply

            But then, whom are you dissing? Whom is GP dissing? Because it's really unclear. On the one hand, "rational people" keep their views even as they drift apart from a wider "rationalist movement". On the other hand, it's the rationalist communities - the movement - that's much more likely to actually know something "about the foundations of economics or political science". On the grasping hand, such communities can and do get stuck missing forest for the trees.

            But then on the slapping hand, approximately all criticism of rationalism (particularly LessWrong-associated) I've seen on HN and elsewhere, involves either heresay and lies, or just a legion of strawmen like "zomg Roko's basilisk" or GP's own "arguments" like:

            > Nobody likes a technocrat, because a technocrat would let a kid who fell down a well die there, since the cost of rescuing them could technically save the lives of 3 others someplace else

            It's hard to even address something that's just plain bullshit, so in the end, I'm still leaning towards giving rationalists the benefit of doubt. Strange as some conclusions of some people may sometimes be, they at least try to argue it with reason, and not strawmen and ideological rally cries.

            EDIT: and then there's:

            > They often re-hash arguments which have been had and settled like 200 years ago

            Well, somebody has to. It's important for the same reason reproducibility in science is important.

            I'd be wary of assuming any complex argument has been "settled like 200 years ago". When people say this, they just mean "shut up and accept the uninformed, simplistic opinion". In a sense, this is even worse than blindly following religious dogma, as with organized religions, the core dogmas are actually designed by smart people to achieve some purpose (ill-minded or not); cutting people off with "settled like 200 years ago" is just telling them to accept whatever's the cheapest, worst-quality belief currently on sale on the "marketplace of ideas".

            • By vinceguidry 2025-04-0315:173 reply

              Rationalism, and the people who believe in it and promote it, has the problem that the human mind unavoidably decides to act as the arbiter of what is rational or not. This limits your vision to only that which the mind internally 'agrees with' or not, entrenching hidden biases.

              Fundamentally, it's the mind only engaging with the cognitive, and ignoring the limbic. Engaging with the limbic, with the deep, primal parts of the brain, challenges cognitively-held truths and demands you to support these truths from a broader context.

              This is why rationalists are more prone to engage with fascist viewpoints, they seek more power for their held beliefs and fascism offers that in spades. You're not thinking about the history of fascist movements and how horrible they all turned out. You're thinking: How can we do it better this time?

              Just like in math, the rational is a subset of the real, and you need both the rational and the irrational to make reality. Focusing exclusively on rationality is intentionally blinding yourself to messy reality.

              • By moolcool 2025-04-0315:451 reply

                > Just like in math, the rational is a subset of the real

                I just want to highlight this, since it's the cleanest way I've seen this expressed. This is a fantastic hackernews comment.

                • By TeMPOraL 2025-04-0315:531 reply

                  I too want to highlight this, since it's one of the cleanest case of blatant equivocation sneaking past people.

                  >> Just like in math, the rational is a subset of the real

                  That only works if you think Rationality ⊂ Reality the same way ℚ ⊂ ℝ — which is like saying Space-time ⊂ Archery because time flies like an arrow.

                  Wordplay is not an argument.

                  • By moolcool 2025-04-0316:101 reply

                    And I'd like to highlight this, since it's one of the cleanest cases of everyone in a situation knowing what's being said, and then a rationalist coming along and thinking everyone is misunderstanding it except for him.

                    Rationalists read poetry like "Compare thee to a summer's day? Pfft, impossible!"

                    • By vinceguidry 2025-04-0411:26

                      Rationalist Jesus preaches the gospel of Effective Altruism and pure consequentialism. Rob and beat your neighbors in service of them, that's real love.

              • By TeMPOraL 2025-04-0315:461 reply

                That's an interesting take, but I can't see how you can dismiss rationality/rationalism as insufficient to process reality on the basis of "ignoring the limbic", without dismissing all of science and mathematics in the process.

                I do agree there's more to human experience than just the cognitive / "system 2" view, but the important aspect of our cognitive facility - aspects that put humans on top of the global food chain - is that we can model and reason about the "limbic", and even though we can merely approximate it in the cognitive space, we've also learned how to work with approximations and uncertainty.

                This is to say, if reason seems to justify viewpoints generally known, viscerally and cognitively, to be abhorrent, it typically means one's reasoning about perfectly spherical cows in a vacuum instead of actual human beings, and fails to include the "deep, primal parts of the brain" in their model. That, fortunately, is a correctable mistake.

                Just like in math, if you construct a seemingly solid edifice of theorems and proofs, but forget and subsequently violate a critical assumption, all kind of wild conclusions will come out the other end.

                • By vinceguidry 2025-04-0316:40

                  > I can't see how you can dismiss rationality/rationalism as insufficient to process reality on the basis of "ignoring the limbic", without dismissing all of science and mathematics in the process.

                  Only a rationalist could make such a statement. I tell you rationalism is only a part of reality, not the whole, and you take that as a dismissal of all of the rational. I have no problems with science and maths, I just don't elevate them to the level of prime importance that rationalists do. I watched the Veritasium video on Cantor and the Axiom of Choice before I saw it on HN, and I follow Dr. Angela Collier on YouTube.

                  I'm an intuitionist, not a rationalist. I believe in a broad and rich informational diet, and that intuitive understanding is better than reductionist, which is the only kind of understanding rationalists seem to value.

                  > is that we can model and reason about the "limbic",

                  We can, and the academic domain that produces is generally called the humanities, and the humanities seem to be almost universally dismissed, even despised, by rationalists. So color me unimpressed when rationalists do this acceptance / dismissal dance regarding them. You don't really care about the humanities, just that we can model and reason about them. You want your rational bent to encompass the irrational, when fundamentally it cannot do that. Yes we can study the humanities. Just not with science or math or any other positivistic approach that would satisfy a rationalist.

                  And I fundamentally disagree with the notion that it's the cognitive that allowed us to dominate. In fact it's the cooperation between the cognitive and the limbic that produces the language that allows us to communicate with each other that gave us the advantage. Without the limbic there's no reason or room to cooperate.

                  All your viewpoint seeks to do is reduce the real into the rational.

                  > Just like in math, if you construct a seemingly solid edifice of theorems and proofs, but forget and subsequently violate a critical assumption, all kind of wild conclusions will come out the other end.

                  Hence Elon Musk's Nazi-esque government takeover.

              • By exoverito 2025-04-0315:411 reply

                Everyone likes to use fascist to smear their political opponents, yet I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that the "anti-fascists" are any different. They support mass censorship, state propaganda, political violence, forever war, discrimination, debanking, lawfare, lockdowns, and ironically even infringement of bodily autonomy through unconstitutional vaccine mandates.

                • By vinceguidry 2025-04-0316:441 reply

                  I hope this "I know you are but what am I" approach to politics falls out of fashion soon. Like listening to children playing cops and robbers.

                  • By exoverito 2025-04-0415:391 reply

                    It's childish to still not see the Democrats are corrupt corporatists, and that we need real third parties and candidates strong enough to resist the myriad of dirty tactics thrown at them. Say what you will about Trump, but he's about the only person who has the strength and resources to take on an entrenched deep state and corrupt intelligence agencies. They tried to impeach him with a fake Russian collusion hoax, throw him in prison on trumped up non-criminal felonies, and oh yeah multiple assassination attempts which were memory holed a couple weeks later.

                    The Iron Law of Wokeism is projection of the same crimes they commit upon others. We already have massive evidence the Democrats are corrupt and authoritarian, colluding with media, persecuting and assassinating whistleblowers (Assange, Snowden, Seth Rich). They engage in grotesque amounts of graft and inefficiency, as seen with California's High Speed Rail project, Biden's rural broadband and EV charging stations, which have delivered nothing. The Democrats don't even respect their voters choices in primaries, as evident by super delegates, Hillary conspiring against Bernie Sanders, the forced abdication of the obviously senile Biden, appointment of the obviously inept puppet that was Kamala Harris, etc. etc.

                    I hope real civil libertarians become in fashion. The self-described anti-fascists are basically communists who would create an authoritarian nightmare state, per usual. Funnily enough, the Berlin Wall was officially the the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart, and Putin is engaging in a "special police action" against Ukraine in order to "de-nazify" the regime.

                    • By vinceguidry 2025-04-0417:401 reply

                      Look at all those words! You sound like a really good bootlicker, I hope you're actually getting something from the people you're stanning so hard for.

                      • By exoverito 2025-04-055:501 reply

                        Likewise friend, I extend the same reciprocity and hope you're being rewarded for your internet posts.

                        Interesting that you don't engage with the words at all, and lazily use insults. I'm actually somewhat curious what kind of person you really are, since you've accrued quite a few internet points here on HN. I hope you're independently wealthy by now, otherwise god help you.

                        • By vinceguidry 2025-04-0513:42

                          > Interesting that you don't engage with the words at all, and lazily use insults.

                          Why should I? Your incoherence requires nothing more. There's nothing to say about the "Iron Law of Wokism". That's just mollycoddle you picked up from some trumptwaddle on YouTube somewhere.

                          You want to talk real politics, you're gonna have to smarten up, my dude.

                          > what kind of person you really are, since you've accrued quite a few internet points here on HN

                          Someone who gave his last fuck 20 years ago. Folks around here like that.

            • By satvikpendem 2025-04-0316:141 reply

              > whom are you dissing? Whom is GP dissing?

              Just a nit, it's "who" in this case, not "whom," because it is a subject not an object. "Whom" is more often used as "to/with/for whom."

              • By TeMPOraL 2025-04-0319:001 reply

                Thanks! English is not my first language, and I still have problem with this particular thing.

                (IIRC use of "whom" was never covered in my English classes; I only learned about it from StarGate: SG-1, a show in which one of the main characters had a habit of mocking enemies by correcting their grammar.)

                • By satvikpendem 2025-04-057:11

                  No worries, Temporal, I have seen your comments for a long time so no worries in me correcting you, as I am glad to do so.

            • By freejazz 2025-04-0317:34

              Your entire post is premised on rational people only being rationalists

          • By moolcool 2025-04-0314:361 reply

            It always falls down because the end-goal of ones "rationalism" always has to be determined by a set of values.

            If you want to form a political ideology based on rationality, your very first step will stick you right in the middle of the sticky-icky world of the humanities. 'Hello deontology, my old friend.'

            • By bumby 2025-04-0315:191 reply

              Isn’t rationalism (as discussed above) more closely related to utilitarianism? Thus rationalism is more of a consequentialist framework than a deontological one?

              • By moolcool 2025-04-0315:401 reply

                Even definitions there are extremely hazy. "The most good for the most people".

                Define "good". Happiness? Economic prosperity? Community? And over what time span?

                Define "most". Percentage of people served? Number of people served?

                Define "people". Are you counting citizens? Immigrants? Foreigners? Prisoners? People in the future?

                You know the joke in the sciences about how everything distills down to mathematics? I would argue that we just as often distill down to philosophy. You have to reckon with a lot of questions which a stats degree can't help you much with.

                • By bumby 2025-04-0315:51

                  To steal a quote from The Good Place, “This is why everyone hates moral philosophy professors”

        • By Henchman21 2025-04-0315:08

          Its almost like you’ve discovered content manufactured whose only purpose is propaganda

        • By UncleMeat 2025-04-0315:451 reply

          What's also remarkable is that these people often have incredible disdain for communities of experts who study these topics for their careers. The number of times that I've seen one of these blogs discuss a topic that they believe they have invented while ignoring the mountains of literature already produced on the topic is... concerning.

          This is what no humanities education does to a motherfucker.

          • By moolcool 2025-04-0315:49

            My favourite genre of this is when the crypto community rediscovers centuries of economic lessons from first-principles.

    • By tonyarkles 2025-04-0314:493 reply

      Those are good questions for sure and could lead to some interesting discussions, but (and maybe my generally left-leaning bias is showing by saying this) they're questions that are in many ways self-evident. For example, it's hard to argue that health care should only be affordable for the rich and that everyone else should just die in the streets.

      There's other issues that are much less clear and, in my experience, more likely to shift from discussions and debates into strife and arguments:

      - Should private citizens be allowed to own firearms? Should they be allowed to carry them on the streets?

      - What do we do about meth and opiates on our streets? What do we do about the associated property and violent interpersonal crime?

      - Should we start building more nuclear power plants to cut down on our greenhouse gas emissions?

      And locally:

      - The city is expanding to the west. What should this neighbourhood look like?

      These, I believe, are squarely in the realm of "politics" and unless you're having the discussion in an ideological bubble are likely to be much hotter-button issues.

      • By nradov 2025-04-0316:46

        There's a lot of nuance in the healthcare access and affordability issue. In developed countries at least there's a pretty broad consensus that if someone is having a medical emergency then they should receive treatment regardless of ability to pay. But beyond that it gets sticky and there are hard choices that no one likes to discuss. Resources are finite but demand is effectively infinite, so one way or another there has to be some form of rationing. Like if a poor patient is dying of cancer and a drug could extend their life by 3 months at a cost of $100K then should society be obligated to pay? This is inherently a political question with no obvious correct answer.

      • By gosub100 2025-04-0315:571 reply

        - should private citizens be able to own their own property? Or should the government jump in an take what they think is "fair" so they can redistribute it to others?

        • By lostlogin 2025-04-0317:101 reply

          Is this a trick question about tax or an ‘are you a communist?’ question?

          Outside the extremes edge cases (billionaires), I’d be surprised if any significant portion of the population thought owning stuff a problem.

          • By tonyarkles 2025-04-0318:05

            > I’d be surprised if any significant portion of the population thought owning stuff a problem.

            Except for Real Estate...there's a not-insignificant group of people who thing that the idea of owning multiple homes and renting them out should not be allowed.

      • By nixonaddiction 2025-04-0317:301 reply

        "healthcare should be for everyone" is a great claim to make. but then the question is implementation. how will you get rid of the current system and replace it with a more equitable one? people are generally hesitant to make changes unless things are really bad. i like to think of this in terms of chemical bonds - people are bonded to their current systems, and wont break those bonds unless they are under enough stress that bond breakage is favorable. and once you start arguing for destruction of the current system, the morality gets fuzzy. do you support accelerationism, or a more gradual change? and then once you are in the weeds of implementing a fairer healthcare system, things are just genuinely terrible. i am very uninvolved in the healthcare system, but you need organizational structures, supply chain, etc. someone somewhere will probably try and be selfish about things which will make everything harder. structures will have to be built to deal with legal minutia. and meanwhile there are all these other preexisting systems used to the former system that struggle to make the switch instantaneously? every question is complicated and awful once you think about implementation. nothing is ever self evident. imo!

        • By brightlancer 2025-04-0318:59

          > "healthcare should be for everyone" is a great claim to make. but then the question is implementation. how will you get rid of the current system and replace it with a more equitable one?

          And as importantly, what does "more equitable" or "fairer" mean? More broadly, how do people define "better"?

          In the US, a major issue is that The D and The R have radically different ideas of what those words mean, even though they agree on the high level objectives like "healthcare should be for everyone".

    • By mock-possum 2025-04-0314:431 reply

      > The crucial question is what is "politics"? … Are inflammatory issues about race, sex or gender or political correctness or immigration? No!

      When people talk about privilege, this is it - being able to dictate which issues are ‘politics,’ and being able to dismiss my rights as ‘not politics.’

      Do I have a right to work? To live? To own property? To marry the one I love? To have sex with the people I’m attracted to? To raise a child with my partner? To choose my own identity and to live my own life?

      A white cishet man takes all those rights for granted - why shouldn’t I? Why should my struggle to obtain those same rights be dismissed as ‘inflammatory issues about sex or gender or political correctness’ and therefore ‘not politics?’

      Are you married? Would you like to be? Do you ever worry about how you’ll be treated when you go to work, or make a purchase at the store? What’s it like to go grocery shopping, or car shopping, or touring places to live? What’s it like apply to and interview for jobs? Does you boss look like you? How do your parents feel about you? How do your neighbors greet you when they see you? What’s your relationship like with your landlord?

      You’re really telling me that none of that is worth ‘politicking’ over?

      that attitude is exactly why things are not going well right now - because we are pretending that of we look away, equality and justice will take care of itself.

    • By nottorp 2025-04-0313:592 reply

      > Are common American citizens able to afford and obtain reasonable health care?

      "Should common American citizens" ... is a question.

      This already implies a country's citizens having access to health care without financial barriers is a good idea already :)

      [Note that I'm in the EU, I have access to affordable health care by default and I like it that way. But I don't think everyone in the US thinks like that. Or even understands what it means.]

      • By geodel 2025-04-0318:161 reply

        Agree.

        It is same thing with higher ed. Everyone should have college degree . Now even without everyone having it but just 3-4 times then before means there are tons of graduates without jobs, low paying jobs commensurate to years in education and heavy load of debt.

        The question from start had to be Should everyone get a college degree?

        Define all kinds of privilege/benefits as rights. And then move on to ask innocent questions as Is even asking for our rights politics?

        • By nottorp 2025-04-0318:42

          Uh oh. Last paragraph is leading :)

      • By dagw 2025-04-0315:00

        "Should common American citizens" ... is a question

        "How should..." is the really important and interesting question. Even when everybody answers yes, which most people do, to the "should" question they will often completely disagree on the "how should" question.

    • By klank 2025-04-0319:38

      > The crucial question is what is "politics"? Are personalities politics? No. Are parties? No. Are inflammatory issues about race, sex or gender or political correctness or immigration? No!

      I don't personally agree with how quick you are able to write those things off as not being political. Would you mind providing a bit more explanation of how you are able to arrive at such confident No's?

      Perhaps you consider political to be an intrinsic quality of a thing rather than a descriptor of how a thing is used/intended? I fall into the latter camp, and thus am very open to consider almost anything and everything political. Much like art.

    • By iteria 2025-04-0314:321 reply

      > The crucial question is what is "politics"? Are personalities politics? No. Are parties? No. Are inflammatory issues about race, sex or gender or political correctness or immigration? No!

      What an easy answer when you not part of the disadvantaged demographic. Some problems apply almost exclusively to a single demographic. Not asking the cultural questions is like thinking that segregation was perfectly okay because everyone had access to everything you'd need. Just not in the small space.

      Urban problems are not rural problems even when they look like the same problem. Why there is a food desert in Nowhere, SomeState is not going to be anything like the reason there is a good desert in Urbanville, Somestate. So while everyone definitely deserves the ability to acquire food pretending that subgroups don't exist means you can't actually solve their struggle. If you apply a blanket solution it doesn't help everyone.

      It is beyond disingenuous to pretend that different kinds of people don't feel the impact of culture and regulation differently and in ways they either can't themselves or can't at all change. To take that stance, shows that one is on the default demographic that is always considered before anyone else.

      • By Jensson 2025-04-0316:151 reply

        > It is beyond disingenuous to pretend that different kinds of people don't feel the impact of culture and regulation differently

        But that is why you shouldn't talk about it at parties, because people experience it so differently it is likely to lead to conflict and bad times.

        Saying you need to talk about it since it is important is like teaching math at parties because it is important, it will just irritate people since they are there to enjoy themselves not get lectured.

        • By klank 2025-04-0319:41

          Unlike your math example, if serious harm or death is at stake, I don't mind if it leads to conflict and bad times. Avoidance because "it might be a bad time", to me, feels like a lack of appreciation for what is at stake in these conversations.

    • By CooCooCaCha 2025-04-0315:44

      Politics is decision making in groups.

      Every group of people is a political unit and anything that affects decision making is political. Your office is a political unit, your family is a political unit, etc.

      So if a racial issue is affecting the decisions we make then yes it’s political.

    • By bad_haircut72 2025-04-0319:44

      Literally none of this is politics, its governance. Politics is the human word for the chimplike "who gets to be the boss" games we play. No matter how well your society is running there will always be politics, put 20 people on a tropical island with no problems and 4 weeks later half of em will want to kill the other half - thats politics

    • By atoav 2025-04-0316:24

      On top of that if you strictly want avoid political topics, be aware that there are forces who profit from making topics "political" that probably shouldn't be.

      So when someone else decides which topics are politicized and you want to avoid political discussions — congrats you just let others decide about which topics you are willing to discuss.

      My opinion is that most topics have a political dimension anyways, also because most topics have a economic dimension. Or phrased differently: Everything is political.

      When discussing politics with friends the "how" is probably much more important than the "if". Most people do not have a vetted political opinion, they just have a strong vibe that they can't really reason about. They aligned with some sources and read/watch news they like to hear and that forms their image of the world. They never really tried to form a logically coherent worldview that is backed by facts instead of pre-filtered annecdotes that may or may not have happened in that way.

      With this as the starting point a healthy political discourse isn't possible. You can't argue against someones vibes.

      But that doesn't mean good/interesting political discourse isn't possible. It just means that if someone lets the politicians turn them into a vibe-based party-before-issue follower that uncritically believes most of what politicians say, they can no longer think or discuss the topics that impact them with others on a reasonable level. And this is why topics get politicized in the first way.

      And no-one is immune to this, especially not you guys over there with that two-party system. But we all need to remember that towing the line of a political party means they no longer represent us, but we represent them. Mental flexibility translates to voter agency and our democracies hinge on voters being well informed and not throwing their agency away.

      TL;DR: Not discussing politics and blindly towing the party line is like throwing your own agency away.

    • By zepolen 2025-04-0320:26

      Great post, I agree with all your points regarding what is politics except that a functioning democracy should rely on common people, I think it should rely on the valuable people.

      Common man democracy just lowers the decision making process to majority of idiots of the country that are easily manipulated. Worse yet, in its current form, it essentially causes the flip flopping mess because of the lack of long term vision and focus, something the common man doesn't want to deal with.

      One man one vote in general makes no sense either. Why should a homeless or fresh immigrant's vote have the same impact as someone that has lived and paid taxes in a country for decades? How about...you get a vote weight equal to the amount of investment/taxes you have made in that country over the course of your life. Provide more for the community, have more to lose, get more say on policy.

      Give incentive to the society value providers to remain and society detractors to leave.

      Add to this that the current Democracy system is fundamentally flawed, most of those systems are exploitable anyway, it makes zero sense to change things up when a great leader is doing well. Having an arbitrary rule that they must step down because they can only serve for x time makes no sense. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Same goes the other way, where bad leaders can remain in power using war mechanisms.

      The core problems today with society is not the left right or whatever, it's that people are lazy, selfish, manipulative, different, it's hard to find a system that works that can make everyone happy.

      Are you willing to risk personal death or decrease your value for the greater good of the nation as a leader or citizen? That's the standard that all citizens and especially politicians should be held to. There are examples of this in the past, usually when a revolution happens. One might say it's happening in the US right now.

      For certain one solution would be to remove people as much as possible from the equation, remove all incentive to abuse the system. The dictatorship and laws of a country should provide negative motivation for someone to cheat and should reward people providing value to society.

      It's not easy, no matter how well a system is designed, people will find a way to cheat it, Bitcoin is a great example of this, not accounting for the banking industry buying the ecosystem and shitcoins diluting the entire system.

      AI is not there yet, I don't think it ever could be, it's been trained on existing flawed ideas which have been further gimped in the interest of 'security'. It has no original thought, can't even draw a full glass of wine.

    • By citizenpaul 2025-04-0316:47

      >A functioning democracy requires that the common people are able to use the law and courts to right wrongs. Are the common people able to use/afford access to the courts when wrongs are committed.

      Having recently been completely railroaded and betrayed by the court system I can tell you. No. I literally had all my evidence thrown out with no explanation from the Judge other than "I don't think this is relevant" in regards to several different topics that I had made an organized report on. Meanwhile the corporate defense provided unorganized meaningless piles of documentation that would takes months to go over and it was left as "evidence" I do mean meaningless, several hundred pages were literally blank white pages submitted as evidence. I guess the crappy software they use to do discovery generated lots of white space in between snippits of info.

      The court had decided before the trial that by default a person is wrong and a corporation is right.

    • By wat10000 2025-04-0315:441 reply

      “What is politics” is entirely contextual.

      I start talking about my wife’s work. That’s just personal family stuff, right? Not if there’s someone there who’s a hardcore women-should-stay-home sort.

      Or maybe everyone is ok with women having jobs, but my wife’s work has been substantially impacted by the recent DOGE nonsense. Something as simple as “she has to go to the office on Monday” becomes political if there’s a Trump supporter present.

      Let’s just talk shit about our cars. Oops, what brand of car you own is now political.

      “My parents are going to come visit” sorry, turns out that the ability of foreigners to enter the country without fear of being detained for weeks for no good reason is political.

    • By 0xBDB 2025-04-0320:41

      There are a lot of questions that are upstream of yours. Or at least, that illustrate why your questions are aggressively framed in a specific ideological directions and it's possible to frame them in the other direction.

      If common American citizens can't afford health care, do other American citizens have an obligation to provide it? There is a word for a system where people are obligated to provide their labor to others. Does that word apply to a system where everyone gets free healthcare?

      Do common Americans provide enough value to earn the wages they make now, especially the ones making a legislatively mandated minimum wage? How many fewer can actually earn an arbitrary increased number? Do people deserve things they didn't earn? What's the non-mystical explanation for that, if so?

      Why aren't we having children? They can't have a productive life without having a life.

      Is the difference between earnings and expenditures growing larger because Americans are unwilling to pay one another? If we are, why is that? (Actually I'll cheat a little on this one and provide a correct answer: the entire increased gap here is explained by housing. So the questions becomes: why aren't Americans willing to let strangers live closer to them? Might there be some risk or self-interest there? Are people obligated to act against their interests? Why, how, and by whom are they obligated?)

      Which is better, democracy or a stable and prosperous society? Might they be mutually exclusive? What's holy about the popular vote, especially for morons? Even if we keep democracy, does a functional democracy require some form of IQ tests as a condition of the franchise?

      Is the purpose of courts to write wrongs or interpret the law? Does separation of powers require courts to refrain from writing wrongs if the legislature has passed laws that are wrong? If not, does the lack of separation of powers place any limit at all on the courts' ability to right wrongs? How about when the courts are controlled by people whose concept of wrong is different than yours? Doesn't a functioning democracy require the concept of right and wrong to be decided by what are literally called the political branches, the legislative and executive?

      Are the news media obligated to produce content in the interests of the people? Are you then obligated to produce content in the interests of the people? What's the difference between you writing in a public forum and a journalist? If there is a difference, should you therefore not enjoy freedom of the press? What if you, say, advocate for the courts to ignore separation of powers to do what is right? What if we the people decide that is not in our interests? How will you be punished for this transgression?

      In actuality, I would probably give the same answers to many of these questions that you would. But the point is that there is no "just asking questions, man". Questions have premises and assumptions. If you, like me, don't like the ones in this question set, don't assume people will be comfortable if you're just askin' yours. I wouldn't be. And if people are all comfortable with you just askin' yours, ask yourself whether you have friends or conformation bias with echo chamber.

    • By anon6362 2025-04-0320:12

      The problem is the property political class, which includes both parties a-la Gore Vidal, seeks to dismiss, gaslight, and distract from these problems and instead make them pseudo-wedge issues or political footballs. One side is stuck on remaking reality as a shared, fantastical mirage, and the other complains about the delusion with stern words but agrees to it anyhow. Neither is concerned with addressing the core problem: big money buying all 3 branches of govt, and John McCain found that out the hard way that ethics don't win votes because enough Americans' manufactured consent to condone lawlessness, authoritarianism, radical deregulation, and privatization.

      Either a Constitutional Convention 2.0 needs to happen to undo the damage like the repeal of the Tillman Act and the disastrous Citizens' United, or Americans needs to voluntarily do away with popularity contests by instead picking public administrators with limited power by sortition from amongst professional societies for a limited term of say 4 years once.

    • By ajsicnckckxnx 2025-04-0314:44

      Politics is simply figuring out who’s on your team. It’s why our current billionaires are so big on immigration and divisive rhetoric. Small groups have used this tactic for thousands of years to rule over larger groups.

      In a good society you would know and have a favorable view of our wealthiest (kings in all but name) people. They wouldn’t be afraid and hide their wealth (Bezos, musk, etc are not the top) because there wouldn’t be an immoral wealth gap.

    • By grandempire 2025-04-0314:54

      “Hello friend, thanks so much for coming over. I just wanted to start by asking you what do you think are the preconditions for having a functioning democracy”

    • By agnishom 2025-04-059:54

      'I don't discuss politics with friends' is another way to say 'there is no war in Ba-Sing-Sei'

    • By Slava_Propanei 2025-04-0317:20

      [dead]

    • By moate 2025-04-0316:12

      [flagged]

HackerNews