Low-Level Optimization with Zig

2025-06-077:26307200alloc.dev

"Beware of the Turing tar-pit in which everything is possibile, but nothing of interest is easy." - Alan Perlis 1982 What is of interest to you? Many things, I am certain. One such topic that I am…

"Beware of the Turing tar-pit in which everything is possibile, but nothing of interest is easy." - Alan Perlis 1982

What is of interest to you? Many things, I am certain. One such topic that I am constantly intrigued by is program optimization. Whether you are looking to compute the largest fibonacci number in one second, or creating the fastest financial transaction database ever written, or even just rewriting something in rust, you likely know how rewarding optimization can be.

Optimization separates the weak from the fast. Optimization isn't a thing of the past. Advances in technology shape the form of our programs, but don't negate the need to optimize. Well optimized programs save money, enable higher-tier scaling opportunities, and preserve system simplicity. Would you rather spend thousands to run shoddy code on autoscaling cloud infrastructure, or write better code, letting you use a handful of mid-tier servers at reduced latency and cost?

In this article I aim to explain the concept of low-level optimization, and why Zig is particularly well suited for it. If you enjoy what you read, please consider supporting me :)

Some people would say "trust the compiler, it knows best." It sure does, for most low-level situations! Optimizing compilers have come a long ways. Increased system resources and advances in IR transformations have enabled compiler backends like LLVM to deliver impressive results.

Compilers are complicated beasts. The best optimizing backends will still generate sub-par code in some cases. In fact, even state-of-art compilers will break language specifications (Clang assumes that all loops without side effects will terminate). It is up to us to give our compilers as much information as possible, and verify that the compiler is functioning correctly. In the case of most low-level languages, you can generally massage your code until the compiler realizes it can apply a certain transform. In other situations, it's not so easy.

Why are low-level languages generally more performant? You might think the reason is that high level languages are doing a lot of extra work, such as garbage collection, string interning, interpreting code, etc. While you are right, this isn't *entirely* complete. High level languages lack something that low level languages have in great adundance - intent.

The verbosity of low level programming languages enable us to produce code that the compiler can reason about very well. As an example, consider the following JavaScript code:

function maxArray(x, y) {
    for (let i = 0; i < 65536; i++) {
        x[i] = y[i] > x[i] ? y[i] : x[i];
    }
}

As humans, we can interpret this code as setting the values in x as the maximum of x and y. The generated bytecode for this JavaScript (under V8) is pretty bloated. As a comparison, here is what the function might look like if it were written in Zig:

fn maxArray(
    noalias x: *align(64) [65536]f64,
    y: *align(64) const [65536]f64,
) void {
    for (x, y, 0..) |a, b, i| {
        x[i] = if (b > a) b else a;
    }
}

In this more verbose language, we can tell the compiler additional information about our code. For example, the optimizer now knows about alignment, aliasing requirements, array sizes, and array element types - all at compile-time. Using this information, the compiler generates far superior, even vectorized code. If you were wondering, equivalent Rust code generates near identical assembly.

So can we *really* trust our compilers? It depends. Are you looking to uncover transformations to triple the throughput of your program's performance bottleneck? You should probably look at what the compiler is doing, and figure out if there are better ways to express *your intent* to the compiler. You may need to tweak the code to get the transforms you want. In the worst cases, you may discover that the compiler isn't applying optimal transforms to your code. In these cases, you may need to write inline assembly to squeeze out that last drop.

But what about high level code? Except for niche cases, the most we can do is reason about loops. In other words, compilers cannot change our algorithms and optimize our paradigms. Their scope is relatively narrow.

I love Zig for it's verbosity. Due to this verbosity, it's easier to write more performant programs than with most other languages. With Zig's builtin functions, non-optional pointers, unreachable keyword, well chosen illegal behavior, Zig's excellent comptime... LLVM is practically spoon-fed information about our code.

It isn't all rainbows though, there are tradeoffs. For example, Rust's memory model allows the compiler to always assume that function arguments never alias. You must manually specify this in Zig. If the compiler can't tell that your Zig function is always called with non-aliasing arguments, Rust functions will outperform the non-annotated Zig functions.

If we take in well-annotated LLVM IR as the *only* metric of a language's optimization capability, then Zig does well. This is not all that Zig has up it's sleeves. Zig's true optimization superpower lies in compile-time execution.

speedily (poorly) drawn lizard with a space helmet

Zig's comptime is all about code generation. Do you want to use a constant in your code? You can generate it at compile-time and the value will be embedded in the produced binary. Do you want to avoid writing the same hashmap structure for each type of data it can store? comptime has your back. Do you have data which is known at compile-time, and want the optimizer to elide code using this data? Yes, you can do this with comptime. Zig's comptime is an example of metaprogramming.

So how is this different from macros? It's pretty nuanced. The purpose of comptime is essentially the same as macros. Some macros will modify the raw text of your code, and others can modify your program's AST directly. This allows macros to inline code specific to the types and values of data in your program. In Zig, comptime code is just regular code running at compile-time. This code cannot have side-effects - such as network IO - and the emulated machine will match the compilation target.

The reason that Zig's comptime can match up so well to macros is twofold. Firstly, almost all Zig code can be run at compile-time, using comptime. Secondly, at compile-time, all types can be inspected, reflected, and generated. This is how generics are implemented in Zig.

The flexibility of Zig's comptime has resulted in some rather nice improvements in other programming languages. For example, Rust has the "crabtime" crate, which provides more flexibility and power than standard Rust macros. I believe a benefit of comptime over current alternatives lies in how seamlessly comptime fits into the Zig language. Unlike C++'s constexpr, you can use comptime without needing to learn a new "language" of sorts. C++ is improving, but it has a long ways to go if it hopes to compete with Zig in this domain.

So can Zig's comptime do *everything* macros can? Nope. Token-pasting macros don't have a mirror in Zig's comptime. Zig is designed to be easy to read, and macros which modify or create variables in a unrelated scopes just don't cut it. Macros can define other macros, macros can alter the AST, and macros can implement mini-languages, or DSLs. Zig's comptime can't directly alter the AST. If you really want to, you can implement a DSL in Zig. For example, Zig's print function relies on comptime to parse the format string. The print function's format string is a DSL of sorts. Based on the format string, Zig's comptime will construct a graph of functions to serialize your data. Here are some other examples of comptime DSLs in the wild: the TigerBeetle account testing DSL, comath: comptime math, and zilliam, a Geometric Algebra library.

Here are more resources for learning about Zig's comptime:

How do you compare two strings? Here's an approach that works in any language:

function stringsAreEqual(a, b) {
    if (a.length !== b.length) return false;
    for (let i = 0; i < a.length; i++)
        if (a[i] !== b[i]) return false;
    return true;
}

We know that two strings aren't equal if their lengths aren't equal. We also know that if one byte isn't equal, then the strings as a whole aren't equal. Pretty simple, right? Yes, and the generated assembly for this function reflects that. There's a slight issue though. We need to load individual bytes from both strings, comparing them individually. It would be nice if there was some way to optimize this. We could use SIMD here, chunking the input strings and comparing them block by block, but we would still be loading from two separate strings. In most cases, we already know one of the strings at compile-time. Can we do better? Yes:

fn staticEql(comptime a: []const u8, b: []const u8) bool {
    if (a.len != b.len) return false;
    for (0..a.len) |idx| {
        if (a[idx] != b[idx]) return false;
    }
    return true;
}

The difference here is that one of the strings is required to be known at compile-time. The compiler can use this new information to produce improved assembly code:

isHello:
        cmp     rsi, 7
        jne     .LBB0_8
        cmp     byte ptr [rdi], 72
        jne     .LBB0_8
        cmp     byte ptr [rdi + 1], 101
        jne     .LBB0_8
        cmp     byte ptr [rdi + 2], 108
        jne     .LBB0_8
        cmp     byte ptr [rdi + 3], 108
        jne     .LBB0_8
        cmp     byte ptr [rdi + 4], 111
        jne     .LBB0_8
        cmp     byte ptr [rdi + 5], 33
        jne     .LBB0_8
        cmp     byte ptr [rdi + 6], 10
        sete    al
        ret
.LBB0_8:
        xor     eax, eax
        ret

Is this not amazing? We just used comptime to make a function which compares a string against "Hello!\n", and the assembly will run much faster than the naive comparison function. It's unfortunately still not perfect. Because we know the length of the expected string at compile-time, we can compare much larger sections of text at a time, instead of just byte-by-byte:

const std = @import("std");

fn staticEql(comptime a: []const u8, b: []const u8) bool {
    const block_len = std.simd.suggestVectorLength(u8) orelse @sizeOf(usize);

    // Exit early if the string lengths don't match up
    if (a.len != b.len) return false;

    // Find out how many large "blocks" we can compare at a time
    const block_count = a.len / block_len;
    // Find out how many extra bytes we need to compare
    const rem_count = a.len % block_len;

    // Compare "block_len" bytes of text at a time
    for (0..block_count) |idx| {
        const Chunk = std.meta.Int(.unsigned, block_len * 8);
        const a_chunk: Chunk = @bitCast(a[idx * block_len ..][0..block_len].*);
        const b_chunk: Chunk = @bitCast(b[idx * block_len ..][0..block_len].*);
        if (a_chunk != b_chunk) return false;
    }

    // Compare the remainder of bytes in both strings
    const Rem = std.meta.Int(.unsigned, rem_count * 8);
    const a_rem: Rem = @bitCast(a[block_count * block_len ..][0..rem_count].*);
    const b_rem: Rem = @bitCast(b[block_count * block_len ..][0..rem_count].*);
    return a_rem == b_rem;
}

Ok, so it's a bit more complex than the first example. Is it worth it though? Yep. The generated assembly is much more optimal. Comparing larger chunks utilizes larger registers, and reduces the number of conditional branches in our code:

isHelloWorld:
        cmp     rsi, 14 ; The length of "Hello, World!\n"
        jne     .LBB0_1
        movzx   ecx, word ptr [rdi + 12]
        mov     eax, dword ptr [rdi + 8]
        movabs  rdx, 11138535027311
        shl     rcx, 32 ; Don't compare out-of-bounds data
        or      rcx, rax
        movabs  rax, 6278066737626506568
        xor     rax, qword ptr [rdi]
        xor     rdx, rcx
        or      rdx, rax ; Both chunks must match
        sete    al
        ret
.LBB0_1:
        xor     eax, eax
        ret

If you try to compare much larger strings, you'll notice that this more advanced function will generate assembly which uses the larger SIMD registers. Just testing against "Hello, World!\n" though, you can tell that we significantly improved the runtime performance of this function. (a was the runtime-only function, b was the same function where one argument was known at compile-time, and c was the more advanced function).

basic comptime was 45% faster while advanced comptime was 70% faster

Zig's comptime powers aren't limited to compile-time. You can generate some number of procedures at compile-time for simple cases, and dynamically dispatch to the right procedure, falling-back to a fully runtime implementation if you don't want to bloat your binary:

fn dispatchFn(runtime_val: u32) void {
    switch (runtime_val) {
        inline 0...100 => |comptime_val| {
            staticFn(comptime_val);
        },
        else => runtimeFn(runtime_val),
    }
}

fn staticFn(comptime val: u32) void {
    _ = val; // ...
}

fn runtimeFn(runtime_val: u32) void {
    _ = runtime_val; // ...
}

Is comptime useful? I would say so. I use it every time I write Zig code. It fits into the language really well, and removes the need for templates, macros, generics, and manual code generation. Yes, you can do all of this with other languages, but it isn't nearly as clean. Whenever I use Zig, I feel it's easier to write performant code for *actually useful* scenarios. In other words, Zig is not the "Turing tar-pit".

The possibilities are only limited to your imagination. If you are required to use a language without good generics, code generation, templates, macros, or comptime at your workplace, I feel sorry for you.

Hopefully you enjoyed this article. If you did, please consider supporting me. On a final note, I think it's time for the language wars to end. Turing completeness is all that we need, and the details fade away when we look for the bigger picture. Does this mean we can't have favorite languages? No, it does not. People will still mistakenly say "C is faster than Python", when the language isn't what they are benchmarking. On that note, enjoy this Zig propaganda:

© 2025 Eric Petersen. All rights reserved.


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Comments

  • By dustbunny 2025-06-0716:576 reply

    What interests me most by zig is the ease of the build system, cross compilation, and the goal of high iteration speed. I'm a gamedev, so I have performance requirements but I think most languages have sufficient performance for most of my requirements so it's not the #1 consideration for language choice for me.

    I feel like I can write powerful code in any language, but the goal is to write code for a framework that is most future proof, so that you can maintain modular stuff for decades.

    C/C++ has been the default answer for its omnipresent support. It feels like zig will be able to match that.

    • By haberman 2025-06-0719:3819 reply

      > I feel like I can write powerful code in any language, but the goal is to write code for a framework that is most future proof, so that you can maintain modular stuff for decades.

      I like Zig a lot, but long-term maintainability and modularity is one of its weakest points IMHO.

      Zig is hostile to encapsulation. You cannot make struct members private: https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/9909#issuecomment-9426...

      Key quote:

      > The idea of private fields and getter/setter methods was popularized by Java, but it is an anti-pattern. Fields are there; they exist. They are the data that underpins any abstraction. My recommendation is to name fields carefully and leave them as part of the public API, carefully documenting what they do.

      You cannot reasonably form API contracts (which are the foundation of software modularity) unless you can hide the internal representation. You need to be able to change the internal representation without breaking users.

      Zig's position is that there should be no such thing as internal representation; you should publicly expose, document, and guarantee the behavior of your representation to all users.

      I hope Zig reverses this decision someday and supports private fields.

      • By unclad5968 2025-06-0722:234 reply

        I disagree with plenty of Andrew's takes as well but I'm with him on private fields. I've never once in 10 years had an issue with a public field that should have been private, however I have had to hack/reimplement entire data structures because some library author thought that no user should touch some private field.

        > You cannot reasonably form API contracts (which are the foundation of software modularity) unless you can hide the internal representation. You need to be able to change the internal representation without breaking users.

        You never need to hide internal representations to form an "API contract". That doesn't even make sense. If you need to be able to change the internal representation without breaking user code, you're looking for opaque pointers, which have been the solution to this problem since at least C89, I assume earlier.

        If you change your data structures or the procedures that operate on them, you're almost certain to break someone's code somewhere, regardless of whether or not you hide the implementation.

        • By haberman 2025-06-084:221 reply

          Most data structures have invariants that must hold for the data structure to behave correctly. If users can directly read and write members, there's no way for the public APIs to guarantee that they will uphold their documented API behaviors.

          Take something as simple as a vector (eg. std::vector in C++). If a user directly sets the size or capacity, the calls to methods like push_back() will behave incorrectly, or may even crash.

          Opaque pointers are one way of hiding representation, but they also eliminate the possibility of inlining, unless LTO is in use. If you have members that need to be accessible in inline functions, it's impossible to use opaque pointers.

          There is certainly a risk of "implicit interfaces" (Hyrum's Law), where users break even when you're changing the internals, but we can lessen the risk by encapsulating data structures as much as possible. There are other strategies for lessening this risk, like randomizing unspecified behaviors, so that people cannot take dependencies on behaviors that are not guaranteed.

          • By xboxnolifes 2025-06-086:512 reply

            > Most data structures have invariants that must hold for the data structure to behave correctly. If users can directly read and write members, there's no way for the public APIs to guarantee that they will uphold their documented API behaviors.

            You can, just not in the "strictly technical" sense. You add a "warranty void if these fields are touched" documentation string.

            • By Ygg2 2025-06-0816:182 reply

              That's honestly horrible. It's like finding your job is guaranteed by a pinkie promise, or the equivalent.

              • By xboxnolifes 2025-06-090:341 reply

                Most of the world runs on a handshake.

                • By Ygg2 2025-06-0912:22

                  That's not a valid argument. For most of human existence there was cannibalism and/or human sacrifices. This doesn't mean we should go back to it.

              • By jcelerier 2025-06-0912:09

                isn't that the norm in many places on earth?

            • By pjmlp 2025-06-0819:551 reply

              I prefer liability when devs misuse software with consequences for society infrastructure.

              • By xboxnolifes 2025-06-090:351 reply

                A language adding private fields does not add liability.

                • By pjmlp 2025-06-097:58

                  Indeed, misusing the library and causing software faults does, so every stone in the way preventing misuse helps.

        • By dgb23 2025-06-0723:05

          > I've never once in 10 years had an issue with a public field that should have been private, however I have had to hack/reimplement entire data structures because some library author thought that no user should touch some private field.

          Very similar experience here. Also just recently I really _had_ to use and extend the "internal" part of a legacy library. So potentially days or more than a week of work turned into a couple of hours.

        • By the__alchemist 2025-06-0813:521 reply

          Like unclad, I disagree that not having private fields is a problem. I think this comes down to programming style. For an OOP style (Just one example), I can see how that would be irritating. Here's my anecdote:

          I write a lot of rust. By default, fields are private. It's rare to see a field in my code that omits the `pub` prefix. I sometimes start with private because I forget `pub`, but inevitably I need to make it public!

          I like in principle they're there, but in practice, `pub` feels like syntactic clutter, because it's on all my fields! I think this is because I use structs as abstract bags of data, vice patterns with getters/setters.

          When using libraries that rely on private fields, I sometimes have to fork them so I can get at the data. If they do provide a way, it makes the (auto-generated) docs less usable than if the fields were public.

          I suspect this might come down to the perspective of application/firmware development vice lib development. The few times I do use private fields have been in libs. E.g. if you have matrix you generate from pub fields and similar.

          • By pjmlp 2025-06-0819:57

            One the key principles for modular software is encapsulation, it predates OOP by decades, and at least even C got that correct.

        • By Majora320 2025-06-092:07

          This is only a problem if you can't modify the library you're using for whatever reason (usually a bad one). If you have the source of all your dependencies, you can just fork and add methods as needed in the rare cases where you need to do this.

      • By dgb23 2025-06-0722:561 reply

        Some years ago I started to just not care about setting things to "private" (in any language). And I care _a lot_ about long term maintainability and breakage. I haven't regretted it since.

        > You cannot reasonably form API contracts (...) unless you can hide the internal representation.

        Yes you can, by communicating the intended use can be made with comments/docstrings, examples etc.

        One thing I learned from the Clojure world, is to have a separate namespace/package or just section of code, that represents an API that is well documented, nice to use and more importantly stable. That's really all that is needed.

        (Also, there are cases where you actually need to use a thing in a way that was not intended. That obviously comes with risk, but when you need it, you're _extremely_ glad that you can.)

        • By haberman 2025-06-083:467 reply

          I have the opposite experience. Several years ago I didn't worry too much about people using private variables.

          Then I noticed people were using them, preventing me from making important changes. So I created a pseudo-"private" facility using macros, where people had to write FOOLIB_PRIVATE(var) to get at the internal var.

          Then I noticed (I kid you not) people started writing FOOLIB_PRIVATE(var) in their own code. Completely circumventing my attempt to hide these internal members. And I can't entirely blame them, they were trying to get something done, and they felt it was the fastest way to do it.

          After this experience, I consider it an absolute requirement to have a real "private" struct member facility in a language.

          I respect Andrew and I think he's done a hell of a job with Zig. I also understand the concern with the Java precedent and lots of wordy getters/setters around trivial variables. But I feel like Rust (and even C++) is a great counterexample that private struct variables can be done in a reasonable way. Most of the time there's no need to have getters/setters for every individual struct member.

          • By geysersam 2025-06-087:011 reply

            It's about the contract with the users. I don't think you should worry about breaking someone using the private fields of your classes. Making a field private, for example by prefixing an underscore in Python, tells the users "for future maintainability of the software I allow myself the right to change this field without warning, use at your own peril".

            If you hesitate changing it because you worry about users using it anyway you are hurting the fraction of your users who are not using it.

            • By haberman 2025-06-0813:222 reply

              This is company code in a monorepo. If a change breaks users, it will simply be rolled back.

              Everyone is brainstorming ways to work around Zig's lack of "private". But nobody has a good answer for why Zig can't just add "private" to the language. If we agree that users shouldn't touch the private variables, why not just have the language enforce it?

              • By geysersam 2025-06-093:01

                > If we agree that users shouldn't touch the private variables, why not just have the language enforce it?

                Thing is, I don't have an opinion about what users should do. That's entirely up to them and the trade offs they make in their contexts. There are scenarios where you might want to access a private field.

                But it's also a question about simplicity, adding private to the language makes it bigger without imo contributing anything of practical value that can't be achieved with convention.

              • By SpaghettiCthulu 2025-06-0816:263 reply

                Because sometimes the user really wants to access those fields, and if the language enforces them being private, the user will either copy-paste your code into their project, or fork your project and make the fields public there. And now they have a lot of extra work to stay up-to-date when compared to just making the necessary changes if those fields ever change had they been public.

                • By haberman 2025-06-0817:53

                  I would be satisfied if the language supported this use case by offering a “void my warranty” annotation that let a given source file access the privates of a given import.

                  Companies with monorepos could easily just ban the annotation. OSS projects could easily close any user complaint if the repro requires the annotation.

                  This seems like a great compromise to me. It would let you unambiguously mark which parts of the api are private, in a machine checkable way, which is undoubtedly better than putting it into comments. But it would offer an escape hatch for people who don’t mind voiding their warranty.

                • By the8472 2025-06-0823:00

                  > or fork your project

                  If they want to ignore the API contract then that's the right response. The maintainer chose one thing to preserve their ability to provide non-breaking updates. The user doesn't care about that, now it's on them to maintain that code which they're sinking their probes into.

                • By pjmlp 2025-06-0820:00

                  That is the beauty of binary libraries, they enforce encapsulation.

          • By magicalhippo 2025-06-089:17

            I started using Boost's approach, that is keep those things public but in their own clearly-named internal namespace (be it an actual namespace or otherwise).

            This way users can get to them if they really need to, say for a crucial bug fix, but they're also clearly an implementation detail so you're free to change it without users getting surprised when things break etc.

          • By raincole 2025-06-086:40

            > And I can't entirely blame them

            You can't blame them, but they can't blame you if you break their code.

          • By josephg 2025-06-0820:42

            > Then I noticed (I kid you not) people started writing FOOLIB_PRIVATE(var) in their own code.

            If it’s in an internal monorepo, this should be super easy to fix using grep.

            Honestly it sounds like a great opportunity to improve your API. If people are going out of their way to access something that you consider private, it’s probably because your public APIs aren’t covering some use case that people care about. That or you need better documentation. Sometimes even a comment helps:

                int _foo; // private. See getFoo() to read.
            
            I get that it’s annoying, but finding and fixing internal code like this should be a 15 minute job.

          • By tayo42 2025-06-086:48

            That's pretty much why I never bother with the underscore prefix convention when using python. If someone wants to use it they'll do it anyway.

          • By pjmlp 2025-06-0819:59

            C++ precedent though, getters and setters were widely adopted in C++ frameworks before Java was even an idea.

          • By jcelerier 2025-06-0912:13

            > After this experience, I consider it an absolute requirement to have a real "private" struct member facility in a language.

            I think that's the wrong take to have. Life is much easier when you accept the reality of a world where people will do whatever they want with what you give them.

            C++ has private, and so what? I've seen #define private public or even -Dprivate=public, I've seen classes with private implementation detail reimplemented with another name and all fields public & then casted, I've seen accessing types as char arrays and binary operations to circumvent this, I've seen accessing the process raw memory pages. If someone other than you can call the code, it's not yours anymore to decide what can be done with it.

            What you don't owe anyone is the guarantee of things working if people stray from the happy path you outline - they want help after going astray, give them your hourly rate on fixing their mistakes.

      • By pdpi 2025-06-0810:081 reply

        > The idea of private fields and getter/setter methods was popularized by Java, but it is an anti-pattern.

        I agree with this part with no reservations. The idea that getters/setters provide any sort of abstraction or encapsulation at all is sheer nonsense, and is at the root of many of the absurdities you see in Java.

        The issue, of course, is that Zig throws out the baby with the bath water. If I want, say, my linked list to have an O(1) length operation, i need to maintain a length field, but the invariant that list.length actually lines up with the length of the list is something that all of the other operations need to maintain. Having that field be writable from the outside is just begging for mistakes. All it takes is list.length = 0 instead of list.length == 0 to screw things up badly.

        • By ArtixFox 2025-06-0811:36

          You can have a debug time check.

      • By eddd-ddde 2025-06-0720:582 reply

        Just prefix internal fields with underscore and be a big boy and don't access them from the outside.

        If you really need to you can always use opaque pointers for the REALLY critical public APIs.

        • By haberman 2025-06-0721:332 reply

          I am not the only user of my API, and I cannot control what users do.

          My experience is that users who are trying to get work done will bypass every speed bump you put in the way and just access your internals directly.

          If you "just" rely on them not to do that, then your internals will effectively be frozen forever.

          • By lll-o-lll 2025-06-0723:101 reply

            Or you change it and respond with “You were warned”.

            I seriously do not get this take. People use reflection and all kinds of hacks to get at internals, this should not stop you from changing said internals.

            There will always be users who do the wrong thing.

            • By jjmarr 2025-06-080:141 reply

              Let's say I'm in a large company. Someone on some other team decided to rely on my implementation internals for a key revenue driver, and snuck it through code review.

              I can't break their app without them complaining to my boss's boss's boss who will take their side because their app creates money for the company.

              Having actual private fields doesn't 100% prevent this scenario, but it makes it less likely to sneak through code review before it becomes business-critical.

              • By lll-o-lll 2025-06-082:47

                You can still create modules in zig, just use the standard handle pattern as you might in c/c++. I think that many of us have worked in “large company”, and the issue you describe is not resolved with the “private” keyword. You need to make your “component/module” with a well defined boundary (normally dll/library), a “public interface” and the internals not visible as symbols.

                That doesn’t save you in languages that support reflection, but it will with zig. Inside a module, all private does is declare intent.

                In languages with code inheritance, I think inheritance across module boundaries is now widely viewed as the anti-pattern that it is.

          • By nicoburns 2025-06-0721:48

            > If you "just" rely on them not to do that, then your internals will effectively be frozen forever.

            Or they will be broken when you change them and they upgrade. The JavaScript ecosystem uses this convention and generally if a field is prefixed by an underscore and/or documented as being non-public then you can expect to break in future versions (and this happens frequently in practice).

            Not necessarily saying that's better, but it is another choice that's available.

        • By 9d 2025-06-0721:521 reply

          [flagged]

          • By lll-o-lll 2025-06-0723:011 reply

            Not everyone has to follow the MS approach of not breaking clients that rely on “undocumented” behavior. Document what will not be broken in future, change the rest and ignore the wailing.

            It’s antithetical to what Zig is all about to hide the implementation. The whole idea is you can read the entire program without having to jump through abstractions 10 layers deep.

      • By Galanwe 2025-06-0816:18

        > You cannot reasonably form API contracts (which are the foundation of software modularity) unless you can hide the internal representation

        Python is a good counter example IMHO, the simple convention of having private fields prefixed with _/__ is enough of a deterrent, you don't need language support.

      • By mwkaufma 2025-06-0722:522 reply

        > You need to be able to change the internal representation without breaking users.

        Unless the user only links an opaque pointer, then just changing the sizeof() is breaking, even if the fields in question are hidden. A simple doc comment indicating that "fields starting with _ are not guaranteed to be minor-version-stable" or somesuch is a perfectly "reasonable" API.

        • By nevi-me 2025-06-085:56

          I'd imagine semantic versioning to be more subjective with a language that relies on a social contract, because if a user chooses to use those private fields, a minor update or patch could break their code.

          It does feel regressive to me. I've seen people easily reach for underscored fields in Python. We can discourage them if the code is reviewed, but then again there's also people who write everything without underscores.

        • By Dylan16807 2025-06-082:48

          The chance of someone relying on the size at an API level is extremely small. That's far less risky than exposing every field.

      • By flohofwoe 2025-06-088:554 reply

        > Zig is hostile to encapsulation. You cannot make struct members private

        In Zig (and plenty of other non-OOP languages) modules are the mechanism for encapsulation, not structs. E.g. don't make the public/private boundary inside a struct, that's a silly thing anyway if you think about it - why would one ever hand out data to a module user which is not public - just to tunnel it back into that same module later?

        Instead keep your private data and code inside a module by not declaring it public, or alternatively: don't try to carry over bad ideas from C++/Java, sometimes it's better to unlearn things ;)

        • By cobbal 2025-06-0817:02

          Why would you hand out data that gets tunneled back in?

          There are lots of use cases for this exact pattern. An acceleration structure to speed up searching complex geometry. The internal state of a streaming parser. A lazy cache of an expensive property that has a convenient accessor. An unsafe pointer that the struct provides consistent, threadsafe access patterns for. I've used this pattern for all these things, and there are many more uses for encapsulation. It's not just an OO concern.

        • By jandrewrogers 2025-06-0814:441 reply

          I think the bigger issue with "public" and "private" is that is insufficiently granular, being essentially all or nothing. The use of those APIs in various parts of the code base is not self-documenting. Hyrum's Law is undefeated.

          C++ has the PassKey idiom that allows you to whitelist what objects are allowed to access each part of the public API at compile-time. This is a significant improvement but a pain to manage for complex whitelists because the language wasn't designed with this in mind. C++26 has added language features specifically to make this idiom scale more naturally.

          I'd love to see more explicit ACLs on APIs as a general programming language feature.

          • By flohofwoe 2025-06-0819:07

            > I'd love to see more explicit ACLs on APIs as a general programming language feature.

            In that I agree, but per-member public/private/protected is a dead end.

            I'd like a high level language which explores organizing all application data in a single, globally accessible nested struct and filesystem-like access rights into 'paths' of this global struct (read-only, read-write or opaque) for specific parts of the code.

            Probably a bit too radical to ever become mainstream (because there's still this "global state == bad" meme - it doesn't have to be evil with proper access control - and it would radically simplify a lot of programs because you don't need to control access by passing 'secret pointers' around).

        • By the__alchemist 2025-06-0813:56

          Concur. Or, the in-between: Set the structs to be private if you need. I make heavy use of private structs and modules, but rarely private fields.

      • By LAC-Tech 2025-06-082:28

        The solution to this is to simply put an underscore before the variables you don't think others should rely on, then move on with your life.

      • By sramsay64 2025-06-0810:391 reply

        I think I mostly agree, but I do have one war story of using a C++ library (Apache Avro) that parsed data and exposed a "get next std::string" method. When parsing a file, all the data was set to the last string in the file. I could see each string being returned correctly in a debugger, but once the next call to that method was made, all previous local variables were now set to the new string. Never looked too far into it but it seemed pretty clear that there was a bug in that library that was messing with the internals of std::string, (which if I understand is just a pointer to data). It was likely re-using the same data buffer to store the data for different std::string objects which shouldn't be possible (under the std::string "API contract"). It was a pain to debug because of how "private" std::string's internals are.

        In other words, we can at best form API contracts in C++ that work 99% of the time.

        • By jandrewrogers 2025-06-0814:26

          FWIW, the std::string buffer is directly accessible for (re-)writing via the public API. You don't need to use any private access to do this.

      • By gf000 2025-06-096:59

        I believe private fields are a feature that actually increases the expressivity of a language, as per the formal definition. This one can't be replaced by some trivial, local syntactic sugar.

        Of course increasing expressivity is not the end goal in itself for a PL, but I do agree with you that this (and some other, like no unused variable - that one drives me up a wall) design choice makes me less excited about the language as I would otherwise be.

      • By ants_everywhere 2025-06-081:591 reply

        You're getting a lot of responses with very strong opinions from people who talk as if they've never had to care about customers relying on their APIs.

        • By josephg 2025-06-0820:36

          It’s a trust thing.

          If you can trust that downstream users of your api won’t misuse private-by-convention fields (or won’t punish you for doing so), it’s not a problem. That works a lot of the time: You can trust yourself. You can usually your team. In the opensource world, you can just break compatibility with no repercussions.

          But yes, sometimes that trust isn’t there. Sometimes you have customers who will misuse your code and blame you for it. But that isn’t the case for all code. Or even most code.

      • By 9d 2025-06-0721:393 reply

        Andrew has so many wrong takes. Unused variables is another.

        Such a smart guy though, so I'm hesitant to say he's wrong. And maybe in the embedded space he's not, and if that's all Zig is for then fine. But internal code is a necessity of abstraction. I'm not saying it has to be C++ levels of abstraction. But there is a line between interface and implementation that ought to be kept. C headers are nearly perfect for this, letting you hide and rename and recast stuff differently than your .c file has, allowing you to change how stuff works internally.

        Imagine if the Lua team wasn't free to make it significantly faster in recent 5.4 releases because they were tied to every internal field. We all benefited from their freedom to change how stuff works inside. Sorry Andrew but you're wrong here. Or at least you were 4 years ago. Hopefully you've changed your mind since.

        • By philwelch 2025-06-0722:401 reply

          > I'm not saying it has to be C++ levels of abstraction. But there is a line between interface and implementation that ought to be kept. C headers are nearly perfect for this, letting you hide and rename and recast stuff differently than your .c file has, allowing you to change how stuff works internally.

          Can’t you do this in Zig with modules? I thought that’s what the ‘pub’ keyword was for.

          You can’t have private fields in a struct that’s publicly available but the same is sort of true in C too. OO style encapsulation isn’t the only way to skin a cat, or to send the cat a message to skin itself as the case may be.

          • By 9d 2025-06-0722:51

            I don't know Zig so I dunno maybe

        • By haberman 2025-06-0721:561 reply

          I agree with almost all of this, including the point about c header files, except that code has to be in headers to be inlined (unless you use LTO), which in practice forces code into headers even if you’d prefer to keep it private.

          • By keldaris 2025-06-0723:52

            There's nothing wrong with using LTO, but I prefer simply compiling everything as a single translation unit ("unity builds"), which gets you all of the LTO benefits for free (in the sense that you still get fast compile times too).

        • By girvo 2025-06-0810:21

          > But internal code is a necessity of abstraction

          I just fundamentally disagree with this. Not having "proper" private methods/members has not once become a problem for me, but overuse of them absolutely has.

      • By jenadine 2025-06-086:46

        From my understanding, making stable API is impossible in Zig anyway, since Zig itself is still making breaking changes at the language level

      • By voidfunc 2025-06-0814:59

        How is this any different than Python or Ruby? You can access internals easily and people don't have a problem writing maintainable modular software in those languages.

        Not to mention just about every language offers runtime reflection that let's you do bad stuff.

        IMO, the Python adage of "We are all consenting adults here" applies.

      • By dustbunny 2025-06-0721:23

        I don't care about public/private.

      • By stuart_real 2025-06-0810:37

        [dead]

      • By pif 2025-06-0810:56

        You are right. Don't listen to the idiots!

    • By FlyingSnake 2025-06-0717:24

      I recently, for fun, tried running zig on an ancient kindle device running stripped down Linux 4.1.15.

      It was an interesting experience and I was pleasantly surprised by the maturity of Zig. Many things worked out of the box and I could even debug a strange bug using ancient GDB. Like you, I’m sold on Zig too.

      I wrote about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44211041

    • By osigurdson 2025-06-0717:493 reply

      I've dabbled in Rust, liked it, heard it was bad so kind of paused. Now trying it again and still like it. I don't really get why people hate it so much. Ugly generics - same thing in C# and Typescript. Borrow checker - makes sense if you have done low level stuff before.

      • By int_19h 2025-06-0721:347 reply

        If you don't happen to come across some task that implies a data model that Rust is actively hostile towards (e.g. trees with backlinks, or more generally any kind of graph with cycles in it), borrow checker is not much of a hassle. But the moment you hit something like that, it becomes a massive pain, and requires either "unsafe" (which is strictly more dangerous than even C, never mind Zig) or patterns like using indices instead of pointers which are counter to high performance and effectively only serve to work around the borrow checker to shut it up.

        • By creata 2025-06-0810:281 reply

          > patterns like using indices instead of pointers which are counter to high performance

          Using indices isn't bad for performance. At the very least, it can massively cut down on memory usage (which is in turn good for performance) if you can use 16-bit or 32-bit indices instead of full 64-bit pointers.

          > "unsafe" (which is strictly more dangerous than even C, never mind Zig)

          Unsafe Rust is much safer than C.

          The only way I can imagine unsafe Rust being more dangerous than C is that you need to keep exception safety in mind in Rust, but not in C.

          • By whytevuhuni 2025-06-0815:461 reply

            Not quite, you also need to keep pointer non-nullness, alignment and aliasing safety in Rust, which is very pervasive in Rust (all shared/mutable references) but very rare in C (the 'restricted' keyword).

            In Rust, it's not just using an invalid reference that causes UB, but their very creation, even if temporary. For example, since references have to always be aligned, the compiler can assume the pointer they were created from was also aligned, and so suddenly some ending bits from the pointer are ignored (since they must've been zero).

            And usually the point of unsafe is to make safe wrappers, so unafe Rust makes or interacts with safe shared/mutable references pretty often.

            • By creata 2025-06-0816:05

              It's just hard for me to imagine someone accidentally messing up nonnullness or aliasing, because it's really in-your-face that you need to be careful when constructing a reference unsafely. There are even idiomatic methods like ptr::as_ref to avoid accidentally creating null references.

        • By dwattttt 2025-06-0722:08

          > the moment you hit something like that, it becomes a massive pain, and requires either "unsafe" (which is strictly more dangerous than even C, never mind Zig) or patterns like using indices instead of pointers

          If you need to make everything in-house this is the experience. For the majority though, the moment you require those things you reach for a crate that solves those problems.

        • By jplusequalt 2025-06-0813:201 reply

          >which is strictly more dangerous than even C, never mind Zig

          No it's not? The Rust burrow checker, the backbone of Rust's memory safety model, doesn't stop working when you drop into an unsafe block. From the Rust Book:

          >To switch to unsafe Rust, use the unsafe keyword and then start a new block that holds the unsafe code. You can take five actions in unsafe Rust that you can’t in safe Rust, which we call unsafe superpowers. Those superpowers include the ability to:

              Dereference a raw pointer
              Call an unsafe function or method
              Access or modify a mutable static variable
              Implement an unsafe trait
              Access fields of a union
          
          It’s important to understand that unsafe doesn’t turn off the borrow checker or disable any of Rust’s other safety checks: if you use a reference in unsafe code, it will still be checked. The unsafe keyword only gives you access to these five features that are then not checked by the compiler for memory safety. You’ll still get some degree of safety inside of an unsafe block.

          • By int_19h 2025-06-0914:36

            The reason why it's more unsafe than C is because Rust makes a lot more assumptions about e.g. lack of aliasing that C does not, which are incredibly easy to violate once you have raw pointers.

            Obviously if you can keep using references then it's not less safe, but if what you're doing can be done with references, why would you even be using `unsafe`?

        • By cornstalks 2025-06-0813:302 reply

          (This is a reply to multiple sibling comments, not the parent)

          For those saying unsafe Rust is strictly safer than C, you're overlooking Rust's extremely strict invariants that users must uphold. These are much stricter than C, and they're extremely easy to accidentally break in unsafe Rust. Breaking them in unsafe Rust is instant UB, even before leaving the unsafe context.

          This article has a decent summary in this particular section: https://zackoverflow.dev/writing/unsafe-rust-vs-zig/#unsafe-...

          • By creata 2025-06-0813:49

            The author seems to mostly be talking about the aliasing rules, but if you don't want to deal with those, can't you use UnsafeCell?

            Imo, the more annoying part is dealing with exception safety. You need to ensure that your data structures are all in a valid state if any of your code (especially code in an unsafe block) panics, and it's easy to forget to ensure that.

          • By Ygg2 2025-06-0914:03

            For those thinking unsafe Rust is harder than C. C standard defined just 216 unsafe rules, that you need to keep in mind at all times.

        • By carlmr 2025-06-0722:04

          >requires either "unsafe" (which is strictly more dangerous than even C, never mind Zig)

          Um, what? Unsafe Rust code still has a lot more safety checks applied than C.

          >It’s important to understand that unsafe doesn’t turn off the borrow checker or disable any of Rust’s other safety checks: if you use a reference in unsafe code, it will still be checked. The unsafe keyword only gives you access to these five features that are then not checked by the compiler for memory safety. You’ll still get some degree of safety inside of an unsafe block.

          https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch20-01-unsafe-rust.html

        • By jplusequalt 2025-06-0813:231 reply

          >using indices instead of pointers which are counter to high performance

          Laughs in graphics programmer. You end up using indices to track data in buffers all the time when working with graphics APIs.

          • By int_19h 2025-06-0914:38

            I'm not disputing that there are circumstances in which indices are as good or even better.

            At the same time, if using indices was universally better, then we'd just use indices everywhere, and low-level PLs like Rust would be designed around that from the get go. We don't do that for good reasons.

        • By Ar-Curunir 2025-06-087:48

          I’m sorry, but your comment is a whole lot of horseshit.

          Unsafe rust still has a bunch of checks C doesn’t have, and using indices into vectors is common code in high performance code (including Zig!)

      • By sapiogram 2025-06-0721:571 reply

        Haters gonna hate. If you're working on a project that needs performance and correctness, nothing can get the job done like Rust.

        • By LAC-Tech 2025-06-082:302 reply

          unless you have to do anything that relies on a C API (such as provided by an OS) with no concept of ownership, then it's a massive task to get that working well with idiomatic rust. You need big glue layers to really make it work.

          Rust is a general purpose language that can do systems programming. Zig is a systems programming language.

          (Safety Coomers please don't downvote)

          • By saghm 2025-06-083:20

            What does it even mean to be able to "do systems programming" but not actually be a "systems programming language"? I would directly disagree with you, but what you're arguing is so vague that I don't even know what you're trying to claim. The only way I can make sense of this is if you literally define a "systems programming language" as C and only other things that are tightly tied to it, which I guess is fine if you like tautologies but kind of makes even having a concept of " systems programming language" pretty useless.

          • By bbkane 2025-06-083:231 reply

            And yet Rust in the one in the Linux and Windows kernels, so people must think it's worth the effort. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1577667445719912450.html is certainly a glowing recommendation

            • By LAC-Tech 2025-06-083:272 reply

              Kernels are big pieces of software. Rust is used for device drivers mainly, right? So in that case you write an idiomatic rust lib and wrap it in a C interface and load it in.

              Actually interfacing with idiomatic C APIs provided by an OS is something else entirely. You can see this is when you compare the Rust ecosystem to Zig; ie Zig has a fantastic io-uring library in the std lib, where as rust has a few scattered crates none of which come close the Zig's ease of use and integration.

              One thing I'd like to see is an OS built with rust that could provide its own rusty interface to kernel stuff.

              • By ArtixFox 2025-06-0811:391 reply

                Hello can you point me to more information about zig's and rust's io-uring implementations

                • By LAC-Tech 2025-06-0820:461 reply

                  Hey Artix!

                  Zig's is in the standard library. From the commits it was started by Joran from Tigerbeetle, and now maintained by mlugg who is a very talented zig programmer.

                  https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/std/#std.os.linux.I...

                  The popular Rust one is tokio's io-uring crate which 1) relies on libc; the zig one just uses their own stdlib which wraps syscalls 2) Requires all sorts of glue between safe and unsafe rust.

                  github.com/tokio-rs/io-uring

              • By WD-42 2025-06-0814:201 reply

                The OS is called Redox.

                • By LAC-Tech 2025-06-0820:47

                  It actually provides rust APIs to dev systems software against that run on it?

                  I know it's written in rust, but I am talking more specifically than that.

      • By dgb23 2025-06-0723:21

        Both are great languages. To me there's a philosophical difference, which can impact one to prefer one over the other:

        Rust makes doing the wrong thing hard, Zig makes doing the right thing easy.

    • By wg0 2025-06-0719:533 reply

      Zig seems to be simpler Rust and better Go.

      Off topic - One tool built on top of Zig that I really really admire is bun.

      I cannot tell how much simpler my life is after using bun.

      Similar things can be said for uv which is built in Rust.

      • By FlyingSnake 2025-06-0720:43

        Zig is nothing like Go. Go uses GC and a runtime while Zig has none. While Zig’s functions aren’t coloured, it lacked the CSP style primitives like goroutines and channels.

      • By 9d 2025-06-0723:442 reply

        Zig is like a highly opinionated modern C

        Rust is like a highly opinionated modern C++

        Go is like a highly opinionated pre-modern C with GC

        • By cgh 2025-06-081:322 reply

          In a previous comment, you remarked you don’t even know Zig.

          • By LexiMax 2025-06-083:141 reply

            I do. I find his osmosis-based summation accurate.

            • By 9d 2025-06-0812:55

              Yay!

          • By 9d 2025-06-081:51

            I don't.

      • By gf000 2025-06-097:14

        Go should be as much in this discussion as JavaScript.

    • By raincole 2025-06-0718:471 reply

      I wonder how zig works on consoles. Usually consoles hate anything that's not C/C++. But since zig can be transpiled to C, perhaps it's not completely ruled out?

      • By jeroenhd 2025-06-0720:19

        Consoles will run anything you compile for them. There are stable compilers for most languages for just about any console I know of, because modern consoles are pretty much either amd64 or aarch64 like phones and computers are.

        Language limitations are more on the SDK side of things. SDKs are available under NDAs and even publicly available APIs are often proprietary. "Real" test hardware (as in developer kits) is expensive and subject to NDAs too.

        If you don't pick the language the native SDK comes with (which is often C(++)), you'll have to write the language wrappers yourself, because practically no free, open, upstream project can maintain those bindings for you. Alternatively, you can pay a company that specializes in the process, like the developers behind Godot will tell you to do: https://docs.godotengine.org/en/stable/tutorials/platform/co...

        I think Zig's easy C interop will make integration for Zig into gamedev quite attractive, but as the compiler still has bugs and the language itself is ever changing, I don't think any big companies will start developing games in Zig until the language stabilizes. Maybe some indie devs will use it, but it's still a risk to take.

    • By 9d 2025-06-0723:411 reply

      > C/C++ has been the default

      You're not really going to make something better than C. If you try, it will most likely become C++ anyway. But do try anyway. Rust and Zig are evidence that we still dream that we can do better than C and C++.

      Anyway I'm gonna go learn C++.

      • By flohofwoe 2025-06-0819:12

        C++ has been piling more new problems on top of C than it inherited from C in the first place (and C++ is now caught in a cycle of trying to fix problems it introduced a couple of versions ago).

        Creating a better C successor than C++ is really not a high bar.

  • By el_pollo_diablo 2025-06-0711:221 reply

    > In fact, even state-of-art compilers will break language specifications (Clang assumes that all loops without side effects will terminate).

    I don't doubt that compilers occasionally break language specs, but in that case Clang is correct, at least for C11 and later. From C11:

    > An iteration statement whose controlling expression is not a constant expression, that performs no input/output operations, does not access volatile objects, and performs no synchronization or atomic operations in its body, controlling expression, or (in the case of a for statement) its expression-3, may be assumed by the implementation to terminate.

    • By tialaramex 2025-06-0712:042 reply

      C++ says (until the future C++ 26 is published) all loops, but as you noted C itself does not do this, only those "whose controlling expression is not a constant expression".

      Thus in C the trivial infinite loop for (;;); is supposed to actually compile to an infinite loop, as it should with Rust's less opaque loop {} -- however LLVM is built by people who don't always remember they're not writing a C++ compiler, so Rust ran into places where they're like "infinite loop please" and LLVM says "Aha, C++ says those never happen, optimising accordingly" but er... that's the wrong language.

      • By kibwen 2025-06-0713:551 reply

        > Rust ran into places where they're like "infinite loop please" and LLVM says "Aha, C++ says those never happen, optimising accordingly" but er... that's the wrong language

        Worth mentioning that LLVM 12 added first-class support for infinite loops without guaranteed forward progress, allowing this to be fixed: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/28728

        • By loeg 2025-06-0717:451 reply

          For some context, 12 was released in April 2021. LLVM is now on 20 -- the versions have really accelerated in recent years.

          • By username223 2025-06-080:411 reply

            At least it's not just clownish version acceleration. They decided they wanted versions to increase faster somewhere around 2017-2018 (4.xx), and the version increase is more or less linear before and after that time, just at different slopes.

            • By 3836293648 2025-06-082:522 reply

              And it's now a yearly major release, is it not?

              Same as with GCC

              • By username223 2025-06-082:56

                I can't say I'm happy with "yearly broken backward compatibility," but at least it's predictable.

              • By loeg 2025-06-085:07

                Looks like two major versions per year for LLVM.

      • By el_pollo_diablo 2025-06-0713:541 reply

        Sure, that sort of language-specific idiosyncrasy must be dealt with in the compiler's front-end. In TFA's C example, consider that their loop

          while (i <= x) {
              // ...
          }
        
        just needs a slight transformation to

          while (1) {
              if (i > x)
                  break;
              // ...
          }
        
        and C11's special permission does not apply any more since the controlling expression has become constant.

        Analyzes and optimizations in compiler backends often normalize those two loops to a common representation (e.g. control-flow graph) at some point, so whatever treatment that sees them differently must happen early on.

        • By pjmlp 2025-06-0714:53

          In theory, in practice it depends on the compiler.

          It is no accident that there is ongoing discussion that clang should get its own IR, just like it happens with the other frontends, instead of spewing LLVM IR directly into the next phase.

  • By uecker 2025-06-079:461 reply

    You don't really need comptime to be able to inline and unroll a string comparison. This also works in C: https://godbolt.org/z/6edWbqnfT (edit: fixed typo)

    • By Retro_Dev 2025-06-079:511 reply

      Yep, you are correct! The first example was a bit too simplistic. A better one would be https://github.com/RetroDev256/comptime_suffix_automaton

      Do note that your linked godbolt code actually demonstrates one of the two sub-par examples though.

      • By uecker 2025-06-0711:091 reply

        I haven't looked at the more complex example, but the second issue is not too difficult to fix: https://godbolt.org/z/48T44PvzK

        For complicated things, I haven't really understood the advantage compared to simply running a program at build time.

        • By Cloudef 2025-06-0711:231 reply

          To be honest your snippet isn't really C anymore by using a compiler builtin. I'm also annoyed by things like `foo(int N, const char x[N])` which compilation vary wildly between compilers (most ignore them, gcc will actually try to check if the invariants if they are compile time known)

          > I haven't really understood the advantage compared to simply running a program at build time.

          Since both comptime and runtime code can be mixed, this gives you a lot of safety and control. The comptime in zig emulates the target architecture, this makes things like cross-compilation simply work. For program that generates code, you have to run that generator on the system that's compiling and the generator program itself has to be aware the target it's generating code for.

          • By uecker 2025-06-0711:512 reply

            It also works with memcpy from the library: https://godbolt.org/z/Mc6M9dK4M I just didn't feel like burdening godbolt with an inlclude.

            I do not understand your criticism of [N]. This gives compiler more information and catches errors. This is a good thing! Who could be annoyed by this: https://godbolt.org/z/EeadKhrE8 (of course, nowadays you could also define a descent span type in C)

            The cross-compilation argument has some merit, but not enough to warrant the additional complexity IMHO. Compile-time computation will also have annoying limitations and makes programs more difficult to understand. I feel sorry for everybody who needs to maintain complex compile time code generation. Zig certainly does it better than C++ but still..

            • By Cloudef 2025-06-0712:131 reply

              > I do not understand your criticism of [N]. This gives compiler more information and catches errors. This is a good thing!

              It only does sane thing in GCC, in other compilers it does nothing and since it's very underspec'd it's rarely used in any C projects. It's shame Dennis's fat pointers / slices proposal was not accepted.

              > warrant the additional complexity IMHO

              In zig case the comptime reduces complexity, because it is simply zig. It's used to implement generics, you can call zig code compile time, create and return types.

              This old talk from andrew really hammers in how zig is evolution of C: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv2I7qTux7g

              • By uecker 2025-06-0712:193 reply

                Then the right thing would be to complain about those other compilers. I agree that Dennis' fat pointer proposal was good.

                Also in Zig it does not reduce complexity but adds to it by creating an distinction between compile time and run-time. It is only lower complexity by comparing to other implementations of generic which are even worse.

                • By pron 2025-06-0716:051 reply

                  C also creates a distinction between compile-time and run-time, which is more arcane and complicated than that of Zig's, and your code uses it, too: macros (and other pre-processor programming). And there are other distinctions that are more subtle, such as whether the source of a target function is available to the caller's compilation unit or not, static or not etc..

                  C only seems cleaner and simpler if you already know it well.

                  • By uecker 2025-06-0716:151 reply

                    My point is not about whether compile-time programming is simpler in C or in Zig, but that is in most cases the wrong solution. My example is also not about compile time programming (and does not use macro: https://godbolt.org/z/Mc6M9dK4M), but about letting the optimizer do its job. The end result is then leaner than attempting to write a complicated compile time solution - I would argue.

                    • By pyrolistical 2025-06-0716:401 reply

                      Right tool for the job. There was no comptime problem shown in the blog.

                      But if there were zig would prob be simpler since it uses one language that seamlessly weaves comptime and runtime together

                      • By uecker 2025-06-0717:241 reply

                        I don't know, to me it seems the blog tries to make the case that comptime is useful for low-level optimization: "Is this not amazing? We just used comptime to make a function which compares a string against "Hello!\n", and the assembly will run much faster than the naive comparison function. It's unfortunately still not perfect." But it turns out that a C compiler will give you the "perfect" code directly while the comptime Zig version is fairly complicated. You can argue that this was just a bad example and that there are other examples where comptime makes more sense. The thing is, about two decades ago I was similarly excited about expression-template libraries for very similar reasons. So I can fully understand how the idea of "seamlessly weaves comptime and runtime together" can appear cool. I just realized at some point that it isn't actually all that useful.

                        • By pron 2025-06-0721:291 reply

                          > But it turns out that a C compiler will give you the "perfect" code directly while the comptime Zig version is fairly complicated.

                          In this case both would (or could) give the "perfect" code without any explicit comptime programming.

                          > I just realized at some point that it isn't actually all that useful.

                          Except, again, C code often uses macros, which is a more cumbersome mechanism than comptime (and possibly less powerful; see, e.g. how Zig implements printf).

                          I agree that comptime isn't necessarily very useful for micro optimisation, but that's not what it's for. Being able to shift computations in time is usedful for more "algorithmic" macro optimisations, e.g. parsing things at compile time or generating de/serialization code.

                          • By uecker 2025-06-0721:59

                            Of course, a compiler could possibly also optimize the Zig code perfectly. The point is that the blogger did not understand it and instead created an overly complex solution which is not actually needed. Most C code I write or review does not use a lot of macros, and where they are used it seems perfectly fine to me.

                • By Cloudef 2025-06-0712:221 reply

                  Sure there's tradeoffs for everything, but if I had to choose between macros, templates, or zig's comptime, I'd take the comptime any time.

                  • By uecker 2025-06-0712:45

                    To each their own, I guess. I still find C to be so much cleaner than all the languages that attempt to replace it, I can not possibly see any of them as a future language for me. And it turns out that it is possible to fix issues in C if one is patient enough. Nowadays I would write this with a span type: https://godbolt.org/z/nvqf6eoK7 which is safe and gives good code.

                    update: clang is even a bit nicer https://godbolt.org/z/b99s1rMzh although both compile it to a constant if the other argument is known at compile time. In light of this, the Zig solution does not impress me much: https://godbolt.org/z/1dacacfzc

                • By pjmlp 2025-06-0714:591 reply

                  Not only it was a good proposal, since 1990 that WG14 has not done anything else into that sense, and doesn't look like it ever will.

                  • By uecker 2025-06-0717:542 reply

                    Let's see. We have a relatively concrete plan to add dependent structure types to C2Y: struct foo { size_t n; char (buf)[.n]; };

                    Once we have this, the wide pointer could just be introduced as syntactic sugar for this. char (buf)[:] = ..

                    Personally, I would want the dependent structure type first as it is more powerful and low-level with no need to decide on a new ABI.

                    • By int_19h 2025-06-0721:371 reply

                      This feels like such a massive overkill complexity-wise for something so basic.

                      • By uecker 2025-06-0722:00

                        Why do you think so? The wide pointers are syntactic sugar on top of it, so from an implementation point of view not really simpler.

                    • By pjmlp 2025-06-084:07

                      Thanks, interesting to see how it will turn out.

            • By quibono 2025-06-0713:181 reply

              Possibly a stupid question... what's a descent span type?

              • By uecker 2025-06-0713:391 reply

                Something like this: https://godbolt.org/z/er9n6ToGP It encapsulates a pointer to an array and a length. It is not perfect because of some language limitation (which I hope we can remove), but also not to bad. One limitation is that you need to pass it a typedef name instead of any type, i.e. you may need a typedef first. But this is not terrible.

                • By quibono 2025-06-0715:121 reply

                  Thanks, this is great! I've been having a look at your noplate repo, I really like what you're doing there (though I need a minute trying to figure out the more arcane macros!)

                  • By uecker 2025-06-0715:49

                    In this case, the generic span type is just #define span(T) struct CONCAT(span_, T) { ssize_t N; T* data; } And the array to span macro would just create such an object form an array by storing the length of the array and the address of the first element. #define array2span(T, x) ({ auto __y = &(x); (span(T)){ array_lengthof(__y), &(__y)[0] }; })

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