I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

2025-09-057:57468667www.jeffgeerling.com

I bought a used 2023 Nissan Leaf in 2025, my first 'new' car in 15 years. The above photo was taken by the dealership; apparently their social media team likes to post photos of all purchasers. I test…

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Jeff Geerling with Nissan Leaf SV Plus at Dealership

I bought a used 2023 Nissan Leaf in 2025, my first 'new' car in 15 years. The above photo was taken by the dealership; apparently their social media team likes to post photos of all purchasers.

I test drove a Tesla in 2012, and quickly realized my mistake. No gasoline-powered car (outside of supercars, maybe? Never drove one of those) could match the feel of pressing the throttle on an electric.

I started out with a used minivan, which I drove into the ground. Then I bought a used Olds that I drove into the ground. Then I bought a used Camry that I bought before we had kids, when I had a 16 mile commute.

Fast forward about 15 years, and I found myself with a very short commute, only driving a few miles a day, and a family minivan we use for nearly all the 'driving around the kids' stuff.

So I wanted a smaller car (get back a foot or so of garage space...) that was also more efficient.

Video and GitHub EV Project

If you don't like reading blog posts (why are you here?), I also posted a video going over most of this, with a little more color, on my YouTube channel:

Also, this blog post is also the centerpiece of my new GitHub project geerlingguy/electric-car, where I detail all the steps on my nascent EV journey.

Equipment and Add-ons

Before I go further, I thought I'd mention some of the things I've added to my Leaf to make the EV experience a little nicer (some links are Amazon affiliate links. I earn for qualifying referrals):

Monitoring the Battery

If you're considering a used Leaf, or if you have a Leaf already, it's a good idea to keep tabs on the battery health, especially since the meter on your dash is painfully basic in how much data it provides.

Individual cell charge, 'State of Health' of the overall battery, and much more are available through the car's OBD-II port.

LeLink 2 OBD-II adapter

Soon after I bought my Leaf, I ordered a LeLink 2 ($35) and bought the LeafSpy Pro App for my iPhone ($20).

I plugged the LeLink 2 into the OBD-II diagnostics port under the steering column, and fired up LeafSpy Pro. It gives me some helpful metrics like:

SOH: State of Health

Hx: Conductance

See Issue #8: Document battery health for all my notes monitoring my own Leaf's battery. But bottom line, my battery showed a 93.16% 'SoH' (State of Health), meaning it still has most of its capacity.

I've been reading up on various forums about managing the Leaf's battery, and am trying to do some things to extend the battery's life as long as possible:

Limiting the number of QCs (Quick Charges / DC Fast Charge), as this heats up the uncooled Leaf battery, degrading it slightly each time, especially on hotter days
Keeping the charge between 50-80% when manageable
Charging up to 100% at least once a month, and letting it 'top off' to rebalance the pack for at least a few hours afterwards
Not driving like a maniac, despite having more torque in this car than I've ever had in any of my previous cars

Why buy electric?

I overanalyze most things, so had been researching this purchase for about a decade now.

With EVs there are tradeoffs. Even in my situation, only driving a car a few miles a day, I do take my car on one or two regional road trips every year.

Having the ability to hop in at 6 am and be in Chicago or KC by late morning is nice. Having to plan a long break somewhere halfway to charge is not.

Nissan Leaf interior driver's side

She's got it where it counts, kid.

Gripes about my Leaf

There are a few things that baffle me about the Leaf, some that have been frustrating from the first test drive; others that are more subtle:

There is no 'play/pause' button. Anywhere. At least not on the steering wheel or the display area. You have to go into the music section on the entertainment display, then press the software play/pause button. That's dumb. I've resorted to just turning Audio on/off using the volume knob, which accomplishes the same goal but is not always ideal.
Going into 'Neutral' is an exercise in frustration. I thought you just put your foot on the brake and move the shifter knob to the left. But you have to do it with the right timing, I think.
There's no way to open the tailgate short of pressing the release button. At least as far as I'm aware. There's no button in the cabin or key fob to unlatch it. The manual says the other way to open it is with a screwdriver, from inside the car, pushing on the latch (lol). I'm not alone here. At least there's a button on the remote to open the charge port.

The joy of electric

I don't care about engine noise. I appreciate it, though. My brother had a 1992 Forumula Firebird. And I nearly owned it after he moved away, instead of my Olds! (But I'm a boring-car person, so I think I was happier with the Olds).

The nice things about electric vehicles that swayed me in their favor, in descending order:

One pedal driving Seriously, why doesn't every EV have this mode? It makes driving one feel SO much better than any gas car, in terms of connection between driver and car movement.
Sprightly torque: Outside of exotic tiny gas cars, you're not going to get the same zip even a cheap EV like a Leaf gives you—smash the accelerator in non-Eco mode and any passenger will giggle, every time.
Blissful quiet: Though some cars have annoying noises (Nissan calls this VSP, or "Vehicle Sound for Pedestirians") they play at low speeds.
Lower maintenance requirements: I hate every time I have to jack up my car and change the brakes, or take it in for oil/fluid changes. EVs (usually) require less maintenance, besides maybe tires.
Conveniences: Like running climate control to cool down/heat up the car prior to hopping in, even while it's in the garage! Or plugging it in to charge at home, and not having to stop by a gas station.
Long-term economics: in general, charging with electricity, at least here in St. Louis, is cheaper than filling up with gas, on a dollar-per-mile basis.

The pain of electric

CHAdeMO, CCS-1, and NACS charge port diagrams

All that said, I knew going into this there would be some pain. Maybe in 10 or 20 years these things will get solved, but off the top of my head:

Price: The Leaf (especially used, right now) is the cheapest, but it is by no means cheap. It takes a few years to break even with a similarly-specced gas car. But buying a gas car, you have a lot more options on the low-low end.
Range Anxiety: Yes, it's overblown, but no, it's not non-existent. The day I bought my used EV, the dealership (which doesn't sell many EVs, even new) didn't have a 'Level 3' DC fast charger—and they had only charged it to about 16%. Letting it top off at L2 while I was dealing with finance, we got to 23%. I wasn't quite sure I'd make it home off the lot! Luckily I did, with 12 miles of range remaining. Road tripping or day trips require more planning when driving an EV.
Lack of standards: For 'L3' DC Fast Charging, the Leaf has a CHAdeMO port. Teslas and many newer EVs have NACS. Then there's CCS1 and CCS2. And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze. Even adapters can be complicated and annoying, and many EV charging stations only support one or two standards—and some may only have one CHAdeMO plug, and that plug may have been ripped off the unit to be scrapped by a copper thief!
Lack of standards, part 2: For L1/L2 charging, some cars use J1772, some use NACS... and then wall charging units are all over the board with supporting 6, 12, or 16 Amps for L1 (they shouldn't do 16 on a 15A circuit but it seems like some do!), or various different amperages for L2. Some of these units require apps to configure them, others have dip switches, and yet others are not configurable, and don't list their exact specs in an easy-to-find location. Usually forum posts from users who buy the chargers offer more information than product manufacturers' own websites!
Being an EV: For some reason, most EVs look like... EVs. I honestly was holding out hope Tesla would just make a Corolla, but an EV version. All the cheap EVs like the Bolt, i3, Leaf, etc. just look... sorta ugly. Subjective, sure, but at least my Olds looked kinda sleek. Even if it was an Olds. EVs stand out, and that I don't enjoy. I want an EV that looks like a Camry. Just blend in and don't stand out.
Cables and chargers: The Leaf has slightly less trunk space than my slightly-larger Camry. I didn't realize how big L1/L2 charge cables are. Even L1-only cables (which charge at a very anemic pace, like 10 miles / hour of charge) are fairly thick, bulky affairs. About 1/10 of my trunk is devoted to my charging cable. And on a road trip, I will likely carry my NACS to J1772 and CCS1 to CHAdeMO adapters. And the latter adapter includes its own battery (that has to be charged) and firmware (that might need to be updated)!

Sometimes i wonder how our nation works. Low taxes, effectively no poverty among locals (and a foreigner can only be poor if they are an illegal immigrant, otherwise they lose their rights of residence and kicked out), almost no crime, and a budget surplus! And nothing seems to be a ridiculous overcharge: even healthcare is dirt cheap, funded by a really low tax of 2.4-4% if income.

All issues we have seem to be a product of culture/poor education, rather than economical - such as some trash in the streets or very poor quality of building and car maintenance. Also no Schengen but again, only foreigners care about it.

By tossandthrow 2025-09-067:192 reply

It is called the tax haven premium. Just like Luxemburg or caymen island also works well as nations.

I don't think it is something to be proud of though, as the riches are not earned.

By irjustin 2025-09-068:281 reply

Are you proud of yours? I'm US and I'm not proud of how our taxes are earned and I'm definitely not proud how they're spent.

By tossandthrow 2025-09-069:561 reply

This is a strawman - but we can play.

You should be proud, but you should also lobby for better spend of the tax money.

Regardless, a well functioning nation should target some level of equality. This does not necesarrily happen through taxes, but taxes have just shown to be incredibly effective.

Regardless of your status, you still suffer from high inequality. If you are poor it is self explanatory. But even rich people need to shield them from ceo killers, use incredibly bad infrastructure, etc.

In that view I do understand why you are not a proud US person - but taxes would likely safe you - like it did in the 60s.

By kortilla 2025-09-0613:312 reply

>But even rich people need to shield them from ceo killers, use incredibly bad infrastructure, etc.

CEO killers are not a result of inequality. The only recent example of a CEO killer was a result of being the head of a health insurance company and the motivation was not his comp.

Bad infrastructure is also not a good example. That’s just a result of gov choices on spending.

At least in the US, pulling levers on taxing the middle and upper middle class produces far more revenue than hitting the 0.1%. This is why Democrats nor Republicans will ever provide meaningful cuts for people making $90k-$500k/year.

Inequality causes issues, but infrastructure failures is not one of them.

By anovikov 2025-09-085:57

That's natural, upper class makes money from assets, not from work - it's hard and also probably morally impossible to tax these (do it and they sell and buy assets abroad where assets aren't taxed, and just throw country into shit, leaving generations without pensions and without profits from their consumption). Only something that has no way to run away, can be taxed. Labor is that thing: for all the bad things about America, you have to build walls to keep people out not keep them in.

By tossandthrow 2025-09-0614:211 reply

Infrastructure was an example of a common good that rich and poor people use alike - not something that necessarily is fixed with equality.

Thinking about taxes in terms of producing revenue completely misses the point. Taxes in this context is a tool for increasing equality.

As for the ceo killings, if not the US increases equality, we will likely only see more of that behavior going forward.

By kortilla 2025-09-0821:01

The ceo killing was not a result of inequality. Both the assailant and the CEO were rich and the motivation was entirely the nature of health insurance as an industry.

So given that the only recent CEO killing was not a result of inequality, what evidence do you have to support the notion than increased inequality would increase CEO killings?

By dash2 2025-09-067:362 reply

If you can offer companies a lower tax than other jurisdictions with the same level of service, why isn't it earned?

By tossandthrow 2025-09-068:281 reply

Because paying lower taxes is not a productive activity. It is quite plain a simple. It is an extractive activity.

In particular, the taxes being paid in these jurisdictions are not earned in them - which makes it even worse.

By bn-l 2025-09-068:541 reply

Wait paying lower taxes is extractive?

By tossandthrow 2025-09-069:51

Yep, when it is paper money being transferred from other jurisdictions with the sole purpose of reducing the tax bill.

Thisnis not rocket science? Why all the lobbying?

By anovikov 2025-09-067:471 reply

Exactly my thought. It is not based on 'ability to hide money from taxation' or anything like that. Just in lower corporate tax rate (even then, it's lower still in Bulgaria and Hungary and yet those countries don't have much to show for that). Also we have tax exemption on dividend income for individuals, but again, plenty of countries have that, it's more of a norm than an exception (no country could hope to attract any high middle class or rich immigrants unless it provides that, it's a baseline expectation).

By LunaSea 2025-09-068:20

And selling golden passports to Russian oligarchs until 2020.

By octo888 2025-09-0522:325 reply

> is usually ~€16/h

Holy HELL that is crazy. I thought £5/hr in London was crazy.

By epolanski 2025-09-0610:391 reply

It's more of an incentive to walk, take public transport, and free cities as much as possible of cars.

By j1elo 2025-09-0614:233 reply

Isn't it also a way to keep outsiders out? If 30 mins by car becomes 1h30 by train+bus combinations, lots of people are effectively pushed out of even wanting to go to the city centre for meeting friends or having a family walk around.

By jeromegv 2025-09-0615:411 reply

You say it keeps outsider out. Let’s not forget people living there already, if you build a car dependant city around them they often get pushed out or have to live through car hell. Not a lot of car dependant city have a thriving and livable downtown, in fact I would love to see which city is having a good quality life in their center while making it easy for cars to come in and out to the suburbs.

By j1elo 2025-09-0616:341 reply

Given how things are being consciously designed (via policies and/or lack of political action), the "people living there already" are just those rich enough to not have yet felt pushed out due to the housing crisis (but give them time). That maybe would be just life, but on the other hand you have lots of other policies that also favor centralization of job creation, development, cultural and entertainment opportunities, etc. So what gives? it's all a big contradiction (not economically, but socially)

By majormajor 2025-09-0618:441 reply

If you want to fight the housing crisis decentralization would be a big win. So if the city is hostile, why not set up outside of it? People already in the city can commute to you; people not already in the city can move outside the city and the surrounding areas can grow over time.

If there are professionals willing to pay continually-higher portions of their salary to live in the city regardless of who they displace then why can't we find ways to build new areas they want to live in? In some places there is a huge weather or natural-feature draw that will always prop up demand, but in others there isn't. There's just a lack of imagination and effort.

By j1elo 2025-09-0622:15

> why can't we find ways to build new areas they want to live in?

Because people want to live their lives today, while what you propose takes decades and must be a process worked on by Town Halls, not "the people". And no, it's not the same. The Town Hall of rich people who didn't yet have the need to leave, is dominated by rich people who didn't yet have the need to leave, not the people who is more affected by the excessive centralization.

By andrepd 2025-09-0615:052 reply

There's no way "30 min by car" is a thing unless you bulldoze the entirety of Central London and replace it with freeways and parking lots. It's always a red herring.

Cars are simply not viable past a certain density. It's silly (misleading at worst) to take a distance (say 40km) and a speed (say 80kph) and just claim the journey by car takes 30mins, ignoring everything else!

Trains + metro + bikes are the only way to make the journey you describe viable (and comfortable and fast).

By j1elo 2025-09-0615:311 reply

That's based on real world times in the european capital I live in. Also the original point was for a city like Oslo.

By LadyCailin 2025-09-0622:16

I can confirm. I live on the outskirts of Oslo, and it is substantially faster for me to drive in the city center, Rather than take public transit. Cheaper too! Although parking is paid for by my job, if it wasn’t, public transit would be cheaper, depending on how long I parked.

By epolanski 2025-09-0617:303 reply

Why would 30 minutes by car become 1.30 hours by public transport.

My (European) experience is the opposite: it takes longer to go to work by car, you're sitting in traffic whereas subways and trains take a fraction of the time as they are not impacted at all.

I live in Rome, which isn't known for great public transport. Yet I've seen multiple times people going from Rome suburbs to Naples downtown (a completely different region, 150 miles away) than it took me by car to do 7 miles.

By wink 2025-09-088:16

Even cities with decent public transport have neighborhoods that aren't great for this.

I live in Munich and yet going by car is often the fastest, and only during rush hour it's worse. I generally use my bike though, which is so-so. If was 5min by foot from the subway station (and not 15) it would change drastically.

Also I mean it's not terrible, but 30-45 minutes to get somewhere by public transport is the norm. 5min to the bus stop, bus to the subway, subway then is quick. And by car this is often faster, also more reliable, and no walking in the rain.

By j1elo 2025-09-0618:421 reply

> Why would 30 minutes by car become 1.30 hours by public transport.

My city has "great" public transport. It's been appraised multiple times, which I guess means that average public transport must be worse than what I've grown up with. I take 20 mins by car from home (in an outer neighborhood) to my workplace (in a central area), 55 mins otherwise. When you consider roundtrips, it adds up (and if we add a middle stop coming out from work to somewhere else for some shopping, the time counting goes out the roof).

The 30 mins vs 1h30 comparison was assuming a trip from a nearby dormitory city 25 kms away, which is the minimum (insisting: minimum) distance everyone nowadays is being pushed out in order to being able to buy any home at a reasonable price. For example: where my parents live to my work is further away 30 Km: that's 30 min by car and 1h10 by p.t., but that outer city had reasonable prices 15 years ago, not today, so nowadays you would go live somewhere farther than that.

I find that typically people talk about public transport benefits from the perspective of being able to buy a home within the centre that is well connected. Yeah, the subway is great here if you live in a 10 Km radius, but talking about it is out of scope for most.

By epolanski 2025-09-0621:171 reply

How praised the public transport of your city is irrelevant. What matters is how close/connected you are to it, and it to your workplace.

Trains don't have stop lights nor traffic. They don't care about rush hour. They are always going to be the fastest connection to a city center.

I live 4 minutes by foot from the Colonna Galleria train station, in a village 30 kilometers outside Rome, Italy. The train to Termini (Rome central station) takes 28 minutes, and Termini is the crossway of the 2 main metro lines and the most important city bus lines.

It's 33 minutes at night with empty streets and it's 1:15 at rush hour. Leaving work at 5:30 can easily cost you 2 hours in your car.

But sure, put me 3 miles from the train station, put my office in a place that is just 10/15 more inconvenient from metro/termini and it's drammatically different.

By j1elo 2025-09-0712:54

> Leaving work at 5:30 can easily cost you 2 hours in your car.

Woah yeah that changes the calculations, I had a similar situation before, andof course I preferred the subway by far. But you know, it depends. I work late into the evening and when getting out of the office, the streets are empty. So it's a hard sell for me to use a transport option that will cost me 1 hour of my already short free time before bed. But everyone's situation is different, that's why I am in favor of keeping all options open.

By h2zizzle 2025-09-0618:142 reply

Unfortunately, America exported our car-privileging planning and policies, so those places that accepted our "expertise" buffed car travel as much as possible - traffic catches up, of course, but that's when the nerfs to public transit come in. It can be a number of strategies come to bear, including poor access to transit nodes, long wait times between service, and disruptions (American trains often have to wait for commercial traffic on rails). I can't speak for London, but if you're unfortunate enough to not live close to certain Washington, DC Metro stops, you're limited to driving to and parking at them, or to commuter options. Both are not ideal, timewise, but save you parking costs and sitting in traffic behind the wheel.

By WalterBright 2025-09-0619:11

It took me 10 minutes to get from Liverpool Station to Paddington via the Elizabeth Line. Last year, I took a taxi, as the Line was on strike. That took maybe 30 minutes, or maybe the driver was just driving aimlessly around to push up the bill.

The London subway system is just wonderful.

By majormajor 2025-09-0618:45

So cars and their use are entirely American inventions now? That's some new levels of American Exceptionalism...

By Reason077 2025-09-068:19

£5/hr sounds pretty cheap for London. You can pay an awful lot more than that for parking in some areas!

By maccard 2025-09-068:521 reply

Where are you parking for £5/hr in London? It’s more than that in Edinburgh these days

By octo888 2025-09-0610:11

Ah yeah it's been a few years. Seems more like £9/HR in Mayfair etc

Out of zone 1 it can be done though I believe

By ChrisMarshallNY 2025-09-069:361 reply

Try downtown Manhattan.

As to the GP, it’s refreshing to hear about a reliable VW. Most folks I know, that own VWs, complain about reliability.

But they still love their cars. I’ve never driven a VW, but, apparently, they handle quite well.

By Thlom 2025-09-0610:301 reply

I had the VW e-golf a while, and it was a super car. Never had any problems with it. Sold it to buy a VW Multivan (I think it's marketed as California in the US?) which also was a great car, but it was over 10 years old so obviously had a few relatively minor issues, but all in all happy with it.

By merb 2025-09-0613:52

California is basically the Camping variant of the earlier t3 and nowadays multivan (t7). It has a big history and used different frames (t4-t5) in the past. But it’s not a us thing. The first version was really close to a us only Model tough.

By ww520 2025-09-060:133 reply

I paid over $50 USD for parking a bit over two hours in Cambridge Massachusetts when visiting MIT. Parking in the Boston area is atrocious.

By throwaway2037 2025-09-065:131 reply

Why should parking be easy or cheap in urban Cambridge? (For those unaware, MIT is just a short bridge across a river from Boston.) You should take the subway (metro) or bus. There are many non-driving options for the able-bodied.

By ww520 2025-09-0610:381 reply

I was driving from outside of Boston. Parking near subway was atrocious as well.

By inciampati 2025-09-0612:38

Alewife parking and the T in?

By motorest 2025-09-065:252 reply

> I paid over $50 USD for parking a bit over two hours in Cambridge Massachusetts when visiting MIT. Parking in the Boston area is atrocious.

The two are related. The whole point of charging for parking is to leverage scarcity to convince people to not make the problem worse and just find alternatives to driving to the doorstop that work well for them.

By crote 2025-09-068:212 reply

Don't forget the opportunity cost. Urban land is extremely valuable, so if you're using it for car parking instead of shop, restaurants, homes, or offices you're missing out on a lot of potential income.

This goes doubly so for all the additional roads you need to get the cars to their parking spots.

By motorest 2025-09-0615:251 reply

> Don't forget the opportunity cost. Urban land is extremely valuable, so if you're using it for car parking instead of shop, restaurants, homes, or offices you're missing out on a lot of potential income.

Indeed, and to build upon your comment, how entitled can some people be to expect they can just take over random ~10m² spots in a property you do not own and expect that to be ok? It isn't. Those spots ain't yours, and I would love to not have to come across your car.

By octo888 2025-09-0615:281 reply

Take over as in rent for a fee? Nobody mentioned free.

Are you against renting homes, hotel rooms etc too? Do you object to the vast spaces that hotels occupy?

And if it's public property, well, we all pay taxes and could argue it's collectively owned. Why would it be entitlement?

I could say public transport advocates are entitled expecting taxes to pay for vastly expensive public transport infrastructure projects

By jeromegv 2025-09-0615:43

They are against free or very cheap parking in an urban environment.

If you talk of taxes, then yes, you can argue against tax payers subsiding free parking for people living outside that city

By WalterBright 2025-09-0619:20

In Tokyo there are parking garages that are a multistory cylinder. The car is driven onto a platform in the center, which is an elevator that goes up, and turns like a railroad turntable so the car lines up with a parking spot arranged like spokes on a wheel.

It's one way to put a lot of cars in a small space. Much of the space in a conventional parking garage is lost to the driveways.

By bbarnett 2025-09-067:372 reply

No, the pojnt of charging for parking, is for a company somewhere to make a fat, juicy profit. The company would prefer more people drive, and therefore, need to park.

By kelnos 2025-09-0619:59

It can be both, though. People who own land and build parking lots and structures on it will charge however much they can, based on what people will actually pay. If parking is more scarce, and the demand is there (as in, it's a popular place to visit), they'll be able to charge more.

And sometimes city councils restrict the amount of parking that can be built because they want to create that scarcity to encourage people to take transit instead of driving, because they know that the owners of the (fewer) parking areas will charge more, making it less desirable to drive and park.

By bbarnett 2025-09-0610:504 reply

Wow. Look at the downvotes. Yet almost every parking lot is privately owned, and many cities have even sold management of street parking to private companies.

Do people seriously think that these companies want to charge more, for environmental reasons? Of course not. They care only for profit.

https://news.wttw.com/2025/05/21/final-tally-chicago-taxpaye...

The parent says that the reason the price is high, is because someone is trying to up the price for environmental reasons. What proof have they for this? I'd really like a citation, because instead I see almost all parking being profit based.

If someone is saying it's for environmental reasons, likely they're lying to make more profit.

By arccy 2025-09-0612:311 reply

the city decides things like street parking, minimum parking space requirements, or if you can put up a parking lot, thus deciding the total amount of available space. actual operation of the parking spaces can be offloaded to private entities.

if less space is allocated, it becomes more expensive (scarcity), driving down car use. this is an easy case of pricing in environment and external impacts.

By bbarnett 2025-09-0614:18

Yes, that can happen. Then another city council gets in, and wants more parking.

The post I replied to said "The whole point of charging for parking" was to force people to, essentially, drive less. This is saying it's the only reason people charge for parking. Clearly not so.

And there is artificial scarcity too. I've seen cities where one company owned almost all the parking lots. In that situation, they controlled pricing entirely.

I've seen a lot more of "doing it for profit", including the city doing it for profit, than for environmental reasons.

That's doesn't mean I support this position or not. Describing reality as it stands is important, one cannot effect change one way or the other, without understanding what is.

By WalterBright 2025-09-0619:231 reply

> If someone is saying it's for environmental reasons, likely they're lying to make more profit.

And they lie because they get vilified otherwise by people who can't stand the idea that they make a profit.

BTW, whenever someone gives you a reason why they do something, odds are pretty good that you're given the palatable plausible reason, not the actual unflattering one.

By bookofjoe 2025-09-0620:441 reply

"The answer is always 'It's the money.'" — Tony Kornheiser

By WalterBright 2025-09-0621:19

Most of the time, sure. But sometimes it's to save face.

By octo888 2025-09-0615:51

They probably use the profits to pay PR firms to tell us all that high parking charges are saving the planet

By unyttigfjelltol 2025-09-0611:45

It’s expensive to provide parking and in a place like Cambridge. They’ve already stuffed cars in every available nook and cranny.

Did you think they should just let you park in Cambridge Common, Harvard Yard or the Charles River park? Why park at all— just stop your car in the middle of the street.

The T is atrocious. Parking is simply expensive.

By Zambyte 2025-09-064:41

Luckily the Boston area is relatively (very, by US standards) easy to get around without a car :)

By boredpudding 2025-09-0520:433 reply

What range are you getting in winter at 85km/h?

Currently trying to get rid of our petrol car but knowing realistic range up front is rough. I'm fine with driving slower.

By rsolva 2025-09-0521:351 reply

It really depends on just how cold it is outside and how much (or little) heat you are comfortable with inside. For mild winter weather (+5 to -5°C) and 18°C in the cabin, the range drops to around 80km or so. On a sunny summer day, I can easily get about 130km on Norwegian country roads, probably more.

When driving to the Netherlands in the months between March and October, the consumption has been around 8.3kW/100km. The car is light and has little tech that consumes power.

Since the car has no heat pump, heating the cabin has a noticable impact on range during cold winter days.

That said, it is a really good car to drive in the winter as the cabin gets warm in no-time and the windows in the front and back are heated and melts away thick ice in about a minute, even in really cold weahter! When doing normal commutes, the shorter range does not matter at all. But I would probably not drive to the Netherlands in -10°C during the winter!

By jopsen 2025-09-060:272 reply

Most EV buyers would probably stay far away from cars with 80-130km range.

Going 900km with that is pretty bold. I wouldn't want to..

But driving around town, this is perfect.

By rsolva 2025-09-066:12

Yeah, me included, until we where going to NL and suddenly was left with no other option becuase our diesel car broke down.

I expected a nerve wreaking trip with the eUP, but got slightly more confident after some planning. Using abetterrouteplanner.com and a charging card from elli.eco, I could drop by almost any charging station and avoid apps or paying with a credit card.

Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands is flush with chargers, so a range of ~130 is actually more than enough.

After the first trip was a success, we have repeated the trip up and down several times, and will take the same trip this October. And by success, I mean a very respectable Wife Approval Factor and a pleasant trip all-around.

The only real downside I have found is that after the 7th or 8th charge, the battery start to get hot, and since there is no cooling the charging time drops from ~10 minutes to more like 18 minutes. But that usually only happens at the last one or two stops.

I know this is far outside the norm and I plan to get another used electric car with some more range at some point, but I'm in no hurry. Having tried what I thought to be almost impossible, I was surprised to find how painfree it actually was.

By philjohn 2025-09-067:36

The e-UP is most definitely a "city" car - which for most european commuters is more than enough range-wise.

By pornel 2025-09-0616:24

The absolutely worst efficiency I've experienced was 2.7km/kWh at 120km/h in DS3 e-tense. That was a v1 Stellantis drivetrain, without a heat pump. Peugeot e208, Corsa-e, etc. are the same thing. Stellantis sucks at EVs, especially their first gen, so that's probably really the worst case scenario (apart from EV's nemesis: towing non-aerodynamic trailers at high speeds).

So if you take an EV's battery size in kWh and multiply it by 2.7, that's the worst range you will get in km.

In normal weather EVs get 5-7km per kWh.

By watersb 2025-09-067:59

We get 190 miles of range in winter at highway speeds if we are careful. 2019 Chevy Bolt EV with a factory-new battery from 2021.

It was $20k used.

We also have a 2014 BMW i3 with a worn-out battery. This was designed for ~50 miles between charging, or you could get the one with a little petrol engine as a "range extender". Mine can only do about 40 miles in winter. Later models doubled that, and most i3 cars on the road do 1.5x what I'm getting. But I got it used for $5000...

By aacid 2025-09-079:25

Currently in the process of obtaining vw eup, I'm little bit nervous if I'm not doing a mistake but this thread gave me some comfidence. Thanks

By 01100011 2025-09-060:571 reply

I miss my 2019 Chevy Bolt. Zippy and nimble. Didn't feel heavy like the Tesla I rented. Plenty of range for the city.

By ggreer 2025-09-065:46

What Tesla did you rent? The base Model 3's curb weight is 3,552lbs. The first generation Bolt's curb weight is slightly heavier, at 3,563lbs. The long range Model 3 is 3,817lbs and the Performance model is 4,048lbs, but those tend not to be rentals.

And the cheapest Model 3 will have significantly more acceleration than the Bolt. Maybe the rental's acceleration was set to comfort mode. That reduces pedal responsiveness.

I didn't own a Bolt, but I did drive one and found it underwhelming. It had bad software, charged slowly, and then all of them were recalled due to battery fires. I don't seem to be alone in this opinion, as their depreciation has been pretty rough compared to other EVs from the same time period.

By incanus77 2025-09-0616:552 reply

Agree! We got a used 2015 Fiat 500e for $8k 2.5 years ago and it’s been great as an around-town car. Don’t have kids, but can take a passenger or two in the back if need be (it’s tight) but for two people and errands, it’s been a fantastic value.

By smoovb 2025-09-0620:58

Just got a 2014 500e for $5k - 50k miles. What a great city car! We also have Model Y, and so the Fiat's 2 pedal driving, lack of good regen, multi-step lock/unlock process can all be forgiven for the price.

By upcoming-sesame 2025-09-0618:183 reply

waiting for an electric Fiat Panda to be old enough.

need a mini electric car with high clearance and surprisingly there aren't that many.

(need a tall car as I live in rural area and am driving on many dirt roads )

By Nux 2025-09-0619:001 reply

Dacia Spring has a higher clearance. I think it's also the cheapest EV currently (new).

By upcoming-sesame 2025-09-0619:12

didn't know it had a high clearance. I'll look into it thanks!

By incanus77 2025-09-0619:19

Oh hell yeah! I'd love one of these. My other vehicle is a 4WD VW Vanagon Syncro, for fun & hauling.

By fragmede 2025-09-0618:25

How many do you intend to drive at the same time?

By sandworm101 2025-09-0612:312 reply

> which is nothing compared to regular parking

Such advantages will disappear as EVs become more common. Lots of stuff, like super-fast home charging stations or EV using HOV lanes, cannot scale as EVs become a majority. Enjoy the special treatment while it lasts.

By rsolva 2025-09-0615:18

Electric vehicles are the norm in Norway, and has been for many years. And you are right, advantages like driving in the bus/taxi lane is abolished during rush ours. The charging and parking provided by the municipality is only getting better however, and prices stay low.

By germinalphrase 2025-09-0613:092 reply

Why wouldn’t fast home charging scale? Presumably, homeowners are doing their own installations.

By sandworm101 2025-09-0621:361 reply

> Why wouldn’t fast home charging scale?

Because current grids are not setup for 10,000-watt chargers in every home and/or parking spot. Just think of trying to provide chargers in an apartment complex, one to each apartment. The power requirements become crazy very quickly. This parallels the issues with rental car companies trying to charge dozens of cars at once, such as at airports. Our grid standards never conceived of such loads becoming commonplace. Whereas today when every EV owner just expects their home charger to be available 24/7, if everyone had an EV some sort of rationing/scheduling would be necessary

Some parts of Canada have already seen this with heat pumps. People were encouraged to switch from natural gas to electric heat pumps. But incentives have been withdrawn as power spikes during cold weather challenge local grids, especially when there is no wind/solar power available locally (think cold winter mornings in the midwest/prairies.)

By rsolva 2025-09-0622:071 reply

I always set my eUP to the lowest charging speed at 5A, which is less than many household appliances. No need for quicker charging if I get home in the evening and leave with a full, or close to full battery in the morning.

By sandworm101 2025-09-0622:181 reply

The rate doesn't actually matter. Over time and with a large pool of users it all averages out. Whether you charge fast or slow, your EV still consumes the same number of watts per day/week/month to cover your driving. (5A is about 600 watts, which is like having a space heater running: Not a small load.)

By rsolva 2025-09-0719:29

The wattage matters a great deal to the grid! If a whole neighborhood charges at max speed, that can become a problem. Here in Norway, you can get a discount on your electric bill if you let the grid operator adjust the charging speed at peak hours to help them balance load, and I guess frequency. A sensible approach.

600W is not much, that is an average gaming computer running a somewhat demanding game. Nerds all over the world have this as a multi hour nightly ritual. I choose to charge my car now and then instead :P

By eloisant 2025-09-0614:171 reply

It's about cheaper parking for EV.

It exists now as an incentive to buy EVs, but as EV become more popular it's bound to disappear.

By germinalphrase 2025-09-0614:36

Yes - I misread the parent comment. Didn’t realize they were referring to subsidized installation of home chargers.

By zeristor 2025-09-076:55

eUp sounds like the ideal name for a car built in Yorkshire.

No doubt running on milky tea.

By boulos 2025-09-0617:39

spark.bg uses recent eUPs heavily! It's the first car listed at https://spark.bg/en/electric-cars/ .

By nemo44x 2025-09-0523:202 reply

Why is it so cheap to park your car and not others?

By danielheath 2025-09-0523:482 reply

When you use a charging station, you pay for the power you consume, but not for "parking".

This usually means you can't stay for a particularly long time.

By rsolva 2025-09-065:512 reply

Correct, but the time you can stay is surprisingly generous in Oslo, between 3 and 24 hours, depending on location. I used to dread driving to Oslo, but after I discovered that the municipality had repurposed an old bunker to fit hundreads of chargers/parking spost dead in the middle of town, I visit with gleeful joy :P

Here is a map of all charging points provided by the municipality around Oslo: https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/2053e5d9f24c48c487e...

By apelapan 2025-09-067:13

I see on that map, that on my last visit to Oslo I could have parked 20m from my hotel entrance for €10 over night, instead of parking in the garage 50m further away for €120. Didn't really need to charge, so just went for a normal spot.

By bn-l 2025-09-068:56

I wish we had the brains to do this in Aussie cities

By Broken_Hippo 2025-09-0610:11

Not in Trondheim. You pay one fee for the parking and another for the charging.

By Broken_Hippo 2025-09-0610:11

Part of it is likely because Norway has done a lot to encourage the use of EVs. I wouldn't be surprised if this were part of this system. There have been things like tax breaks, not paying for tolls, and allowing people to drive in taxi/bus lanes. I'm not entirely sure about the extent: I haven't driven since I moved to Norway. This is all in addition to building out infrastructure - it is far easier to get around with an electric car now than it was when I moved 10 years ago.

This program isn't the same throughout Norway, though. In Trondheim, it looks like you pay for parking and then you pay for the charging separately so you really aren't parking for free. (Private parking might vary, and sometimes city parking is free).

By masklinn 2025-09-059:158 reply

> Lack of standards: For 'L3' DC Fast Charging, the Leaf has a CHAdeMO port. Teslas and many newer EVs have NACS. Then there's CCS1 and CCS2. And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze.

Afaik in Europe, CCS2 is the standard (and mandatory these days), when I rented an EV a few weeks back there was no location which didn’t have it. And all the spots I tried charging at except Tesla accepted card payment (though there were a pair of times it was a struggle getting a card to work).

Apps / memberships will get you cheaper prices but that’s about all I saw (and I didn’t bother with any of it).

TBH the only things that annoyed me were implementation issues of the car (a polestar 4) as well as how overly wide it is. And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter, so I was not able to charge at any wallplug even though I had the opportunity to charge the car at least twice over in all (I will likely purchase one if that remains their policy and I rent more EVs).

All this is modulo it being summer and a pretty long range model so range anxiety was present but reasonably limited.

By lucideer 2025-09-059:265 reply

Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based, but I still really felt he could've highlighted that fact more in that charging port standards section.

The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge. So much so even Tesla switched to CCS2. This doesn't help Jeff but certainly one less problem for many readers of his article.

By rsynnott 2025-09-059:584 reply

> The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge.

Funnily enough, not for the Leaf! Though it will be on the third generation that's coming out this year. The second-gen Leaf (a ten year old design, at this point) that the author of the article bought doesn't have it. The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_; manufacturers can still sell cars without it, though I think Nissan may be the only remaining one who _does_.

By masklinn 2025-09-0510:111 reply

> The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_

Right but that’s the most important one. If you have a leaf it means you know you need an adapter always, so while it’s a bit of a hassle to waste space on that there’s no question whether you’ll get a compatible charging plug.

By encom 2025-09-0511:091 reply

Euro Leaf owner here. No CCS is indeed tiresome, but not a deal breaker. Chademo is still widely available - I haven't bothered buying an adapter.

By krzyk 2025-09-067:04

It depends on your location.

In my country chademo is rarely available, I know only two networks that provide it (and they are smaller ones).

By jsight 2025-09-061:35

Sorry for being pedantic, but since this thread is full of pedantry...

Europe actually doesn't use J1772 either. They use type 2 mennekes which has an additional AC conductor relative to US J1772 and CCS1.

By lucideer 2025-09-0512:151 reply

I was more referring to J1772. We don't have NACS in Europe so if you have J1772 you can always charge anywhere.

This does mean Jeff's Leaf would be limited to AC without an adapter, which isn't perfectly ideal, but still better.

By WorldMaker 2025-09-0821:10

The form factor of NACS is the old Tesla plug from before the EU mandated Tesla switch to CCS2. So there is still some "NACS" in Europe, kind of, but it is mostly phased out I hear.

In North America it's attempt at a CCS plug was awful and ugly and so much worse than CCS2 and made J17772 almost look preferable. The marketplace winner (by almost a landslide) was Tesla's plug and NACS is CCS protocols over Tesla plugs. All of the car companies at this point are mostly agreed that NACS is the present and future in North America.

By randunel 2025-09-0518:00

I have a 2nd gen 2019 Leaf in Europe and it came with Type 2 and another one I've never ever used which looks like J1772, both next to each other in the front of the car. No CCS2 here, indeed.

I was under the impression Type 2 was the only European standard.

By Ambroos 2025-09-059:37

It's IEC 62196-2 Type 2 (Mennekes) and CCS2 in Europe. J1772 is the North American standard that is used in CCS1.

By masklinn 2025-09-059:42

> Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based

That was obvious from the article but given they specifically mentioned CCS2 bundled with the mess that is US charging I thought important to point that (anecdotally) the situations are quite distinct. Both in terms of charging hardware and payment.

By WorldMaker 2025-09-0821:13

Yeah, the US is in the slow market-based processes of standardizing towards NACS (which is CCS2 protocols over what used to be just Tesla's plug). It's not as standard as the EU has committed to, but with Tesla's charging network having a big first mover advantage in North America, it sometimes feels close.

By Hamuko 2025-09-059:441 reply

Go to your local Mitsubishi dealership in Europe and you will find the 2025 Outlander PHEV with a CHAdeMO plug. And I believe if you buy a pre-2019 Tesla Model S or Model X, you will have to deal with Tesla's own plug.

By formerly_proven 2025-09-0510:202 reply

I'm guessing it skirts regulations by being a PHEV, since CCS2 is mandatory for DCFC otherwise. Skirting regulations is quite fitting for a PHEV, of course, as that is their raison d'etre.

By ddalex 2025-09-0520:03

the regulations mandate the CCS2 on the charging point, not on the car

By Hamuko 2025-09-0510:262 reply

The outgoing Nissan Leaf also has CHAdeMO and that's a full BEV.

By formerly_proven 2025-09-0510:40

I assume that's grandfathered in by being originally homologated in 2010.

By teamonkey 2025-09-0512:45

The incoming Leaf has CCS2

By magicalhippo 2025-09-0512:337 reply

> And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter

Here in Norway, new EVs are no longer allowed to be sold with AC adapters, due to the potential fire hazard. At least that's the reason I got when I purchased my current EV.

Perhaps a EU thing, wouldn't surprise me.

By dreamcompiler 2025-09-0513:462 reply

This surprises me, given that almost every country has safer electric plugs than the US. Heat is a function of current and car chargers limit themselves to less than the current the plug is rated for. "Less than" equals 80% in the US.

By masklinn 2025-09-0514:141 reply

It might be that the average euro is less aware of continuous draw limitations since there’s so much more power normally (compared to US residential power).

Could also be that for historical reasons you could have a house wired for 10 or 13 A and not be aware if it.

‘Course you can manage that by having the chargers limit themselves to 8A default (or even always), at 1800W that’s a very slow trickle but it’s something, and even if it does not fully cover your commute it spaces out carger stops or helps condition the battery on cold mornings.

By avidiax 2025-09-065:091 reply

Standard circuits are either 8A or 10A.

That's a little more power than a US 15A, or the same as a US 20A.

There is often 3 phase power to the home in Europe, however. That allows 415V phase to phase and also 3-phase synchronous motors.

By masklinn 2025-09-065:242 reply

> Standard circuits are either 8A or 10A.

Both type E and F plugs are rated for 16, and afaik that’s generally the rating in countries which use them.

I’m sure there are others but Switzerland is the only country I know of in Europe were plugs are limited to 10 and you have to hard-wire 16.

By merb 2025-09-0613:58

Most camping places in France/spain that do have cee or type e/f might limit to 6a/10a. Fyi. It’s mostly to limit power draw since you pay a flat fee.

By avidiax 2025-09-065:30

My mistake extrapolating from the Swiss :)

By Rebelgecko 2025-09-0521:382 reply

Dunno if it's the case here, but the charger doesn't know if it's plugged into an extension cord that isn't rated for 3kW or whatever EU plugs put out

By aidenn0 2025-09-060:121 reply

IMO it should be illegal to sell an unfused extension-cord. That would solve like 95% of the issues that get blamed on extension cords.

By shawabawa3 2025-09-0610:051 reply

This is the case in the UK, another win for our bulky plug socket

By aidenn0 2025-09-0621:31

You can fit a fuse in the body of a NEMA 1-15 connector; outdoor Christmas lights, for example do this.

By magicalhippo 2025-09-0521:42

Concern over people using extension cords or splitters is a frequently cited reason, like in this news article[1].

[1]: https://www.ba.no/lader-du-elbilen-din-i-stikkontakt-det-bor...

By philjohn 2025-09-067:41

Might be - also, in the UK at least where most houses are on a TN-C-S electric supply (earth and neutral are the same conductor) if there's a break on the neutral and you don't have an earthing rod (PEN fault) the car can be at high voltage compared to true earth, and you can get a lethal shock if you touch it. There are roughly 500 of these faults a year across the UK.

Level 2 chargers here either need PEN fault protection built in, or you need a correctly sized earthing rod installed.

By kingstnap 2025-09-0518:323 reply

This seems like the kind of regulation that causes more harm than it saves in anyone's house actually burning down. I did a cursory search and didn't find any EU reports of a house fire caused by a L1 charger.

Sure you might burn a house down if you find one that has a plug which isn't correctly installed with loose connectors but the fire risk here wasn't the EV. Its the incorrectly installed wiring.

You don't tell people to get rid of their fridges because some people might have forgetten to plug theirs in and therefore they could get food poisoning from spoiled food inside.

By spicybbq 2025-09-0519:19

It could also lead to people buying cheap, potentially defective chargers online instead of getting a more reliable manufacturer-included one.

By magicalhippo 2025-09-0521:401 reply

I haven't been able to find concrete stories either, though these[1] statistics might be an indication. It shows there's a few EVs per year that lead to a building fire, though sadly nothing further about source. So could be something else like battery.

That said there's been a campaign for several years trying to get rid of sockets for high current or permanent installations. I recently replaced both an electric water heater and mini split AC, and in both cases the previous appliance had used a socket and that was not allowed anymore.

Could well be they're just being proactive.

[1]: https://brannstatistikk.no/search?searchId=6EB5433C-AC28-4F6...

By danielheath 2025-09-0523:561 reply

I really like the AU tri-prong system for this - high-current plugs/sockets have a physically larger ground connector.

This means you can put a low-current plug (small ground pin) into a high-current socket (large ground slot), but not the other way around.

Only downside I've found so far is that you can't use a high-current-rated extension cord to plug a low-current appliance into a low-current socket.

By masklinn 2025-09-065:261 reply

We’re not talking about high current anything, we’re talking about standard mains electricity.

By danielheath 2025-09-0610:411 reply

By “high” I mean plugs rated for 240v16A, which is higher than normal Australian sockets (usually 8A).

By masklinn 2025-09-0614:19

In most of Europe high current would be 32A, 16A is generally the standard (though I know Switzerland uses 10A and I believe UK plugs are rated for 13).

By apelapan 2025-09-068:03

There has been plenty of local news about minor fires caused by EV charging in recent years. Usually neither the house nor the car burn to the ground, so won't make national news.

Typical cause seems to be old, worn-out installations or improperly done installations.

Perhaps 999/1000 outlets being able to function safely at rated longterm maximum draw (when there is no obviously visible damage) used to be an acceptable ratio. Doing anything close to maximum draw for long periods and unsupervised was less common.

With EV-charging becoming more common the old standard is no longer good enough. There is too little margin for error and too high likelihood of a situation where error leads to damage.

By krzyk 2025-09-067:05

It is a Norway thing, I read it some time ago that they forbid chargin using AC adapters.

Tesla on the other hand doesn't include AC adapter in newly sold cars (since about a year).

By throwawaymaths 2025-09-065:512 reply

norway is in the EU? did i miss something?

By adrianN 2025-09-066:01

Norway is not in the EU but like Switzerland they copy a lot of sensible legislation.

By magicalhippo 2025-09-065:59

Well you missed the earlier response[1] where I address this.

TL/DR: no but kinda yes

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45143835

By NewJazz 2025-09-0518:201 reply

Norway is not in the EU.

By magicalhippo 2025-09-0521:28

As a Norwegian I am well aware of that. However, we're part of the European Economic Area[1], and as such import a lot of EU regulation and standards. Mostly because we're required per the EEA terms, but also because some of those make sense.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

By stavros 2025-09-0511:151 reply

I can confirm that, here in Greece, everything is CCS2. There are also CHAdeMO ports here and there, but I don't know what car uses those.

However, I haven't seen a station that takes card yet (or they don't advertise it). They all have their own app, which is inconvenient and a hassle.

By fifilura 2025-09-0512:461 reply

> but I don't know what car uses those

It is exactly this kind of Nissan Leaf. Japanese older generation cars. Enough around to still be available, but I think it is slowly disappearing. After that only 6kW (32A/single phase) charging will be available for these cars.

By floxy 2025-09-0520:211 reply

There are fast charging adapters from CCS2 (and CCS1) to CHAdeMO:

https://www.electway-charger.com/CCS2_to_CHAdeMO_adapter.htm...

By tzs 2025-09-0523:49

Quite pricey though. That one is $1000 on Alibaba.

The problem is the CCS and CHAdeMO is different protocols so an adapter has to be an active adapter.

With CCS to CHAdeMO you need something to power the active electronics in the adapter. I've heard of some that do this by having a cable and plug on the adapter that plug into the car's 12 V port. I've heard of others that have a battery in the adapter.

Compare to adapters between NACS and CCS. NACS and CCS do use the same protocol. They just have a different pinout. The adapters are passive and so can be a lot cheaper.

By boznz 2025-09-0519:37

I also rented a Jeep Avenger EV a few weeks back in the UK, several smaller, out of the way vendors still required their specific App and where contactless payments were an option it more expensive at around 80 to 90 pence per KWH. A week into the hire I found I could use my Tesla app and the supercharger network to charge my rental and the max there is only 51 pence per KWH and the supercharger network is expansive just works. An EV is a good option for the UK if you prefer automatics or EV's I will certainly hire one again.

By vel0city 2025-09-0522:27

It's funny he mentions Buc-ees, as on the last couple of road trips with my non-Tesla EV buc-ees was a common charging stop where it was just pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card.

In fact, I haven't had to use an app for a DCFC in several years. They either work with plug and charge or take payment directly on the dispenser.

By goldchainposse 2025-09-0519:183 reply

I understand how the US and EU have different electrical outlets, voltages and frequencies. The systems developed independently, standardized on compatible versions locally, and standardizing globally would be very expensive and almost impossible to do safely.

I don't understand how North America and Europe settled on different EV charging plugs.

By Symbiote 2025-09-0522:45

Three-phase power is ubiquitous in Europe, my oven and stove are connected to it yet this is a small apartment. The slightly larger plug (to fit the extra pins) and extra cables are worthwhile for the higher power and balanced consumption.

By darknavi 2025-09-0522:52

CCS1/2 (DC Fast charging) and J1772 (AC "Slow" charging) share a port on most cars. That is, the CCS plug uses the entire plug and the J1772 part uses just the upper portion of the plug.

The AC "slow" charging in the US only needs to support two-phase power (residential power is two phase) and the EU (and others?) generally need to support three-phase power.

NACS is just better in North America (versus CCS1) because it's smaller and much easier to physically handle, but the AC "slow" charging pinning only supports two phase power.

By herbst 2025-09-0519:581 reply

I don't know how it is in the US but there is no one standard charging port here in Europe.

By ddalex 2025-09-0520:041 reply

CCS2 is mandatory in europe

By herbst 2025-09-0520:071 reply

I don't drive a RV, I just charge my campers batteries sometimes. I have 3 different connector cables from the common connectors I found in Switzerland, France and Italy only.

By masklinn 2025-09-065:291 reply

Are you talking about shore power? Because that has nothing to do with EV charging.

By herbst 2025-09-069:251 reply

No.

By ranguna 2025-09-069:321 reply

Then what are you talking about?

We are talking about electric vehicle charging, as in, cars that have electric motors and are powered by a battery.

By herbst 2025-09-0610:083 reply

In my area according to Google maps I see J1772, CCS1, CCS2, Typ 2, CHAdeMO, NACS next to schuko (landline) (in Austria right now).

As said not all stations provide all the standards, not every station has CCS2, hence why I carry multiple cable adapters. That's all I know really. As said I don't drive an electric car.

By ranguna 2025-09-087:51

It's still unclear what you are talking about. Either way, the point still stands, all legal charging station in the EU have CCS cables.

By Symbiote 2025-09-0621:29

Google Maps is misleading, as two of those are not approved in Europe, and two others are synonyms.

By foxglacier 2025-09-0613:15

I think you confused everyone by saying RV instead of EV previously.

By ZeroGravitas 2025-09-0510:042 reply

It's not a lack of standards, it was an early proliferation of standards.

Chademo is still standard in Japan.

Also, given his comparison to the ease of the old way, in Europe at least it's fairly standard to know someone who has filled their hire car with diesel (or not diesel) by mistake. They have warning stickers on the filler flap because it happens so often.

Meanwhile knowing someone who uses the inexplicably more expensive premium fuel option also offered is maybe rarer.

Maybe EV-owning car reviewers should counter the FUD by pretending to be confused by these, always using the most expensive one in price comparisons and then breaking the car completely by using the wrong one during their test drive, like the many propaganda pieces put out about EVs.

By masklinn 2025-09-0510:173 reply

A big difference is that if you go to a gas station you’ll have both (and possibly more). At least in Europe. So while you need to fill with the right fuel unless the pump is broken or the tanks are empty the fuel you need will be available.

In the US, if you roll up to a random charging station you may or may not find a plug matching your car’s port.

By soneil 2025-09-0512:11

I think the common mistake they’re alluding to is Europe and north America having conflicting standards for colour-coding the pumps. So here green is unleaded and black is diesel, which can catch American tourists unaware. (Especially so with language barriers, “sans plomb” in French is not intuitively petrol/gas/benzo)

By WorldMaker 2025-09-0821:16

NACS should help change that eventually (hopefully on the sooner side of eventually), as it wins the marketplace and chargers get slowly updated.

By vel0city 2025-09-0522:30

As someone who has gone on many EV road trips over the years, I've never had an issue of rolling into a random charging station and not having the right kind of plug. All I've had to do is avoid Tesla stations, all the other brands have worked with my car. And now that I got a Tesla DC adapter that I keep in my trunk, I can do fast charging at a decent chunk of the Tesla stations.

By close04 2025-09-0512:01

You can’t easily/accidentally fill a petrol car with diesel. The diesel nozzle is too wide. Other way around is easier. But this is the drawback of ancient standards grandfathered in over a century. EVs don’t have this legacy to carry around.

By msh 2025-09-0513:372 reply

In many countries charging a car in a wallplug is a fire hazard (they are not rated for the heat).

By throwaway-blaze 2025-09-0515:373 reply

This doesn't make sense. Wall plugs (like circuit breakers) are designed for a particular max amperage draw. If I have a 10A 120V circuit and wall plug, I can't charge my car at 8A?

I have wall ovens that connect via a 50A circuit. Do I need to worry about fire hazards when I bake something for hours and hours?

By Volundr 2025-09-0515:553 reply

Not an electrician, consult a real one for any actual electrical work or questions.

It's complicated. Heat builds up over time. So for example your standard 15 amp breaker on a 14 gauge wire in the US is rated for 15 amps of intermittent use, but if you draw that continuously without letting the heat dissipate it becomes a fire hazard. IIRC circuits are generally rated for ~80% of their max load for continuous use, so that 15 amp circuit is considered good for 12 continuous. Or in your 10 amp example 8 should be ok.

Your oven and circuit should be sized such that your long cooks aren't a concern, if you look at it's label you'll probably find it has a max draw of well below 50amps, but if you have actual doubts ask a professional.

By Astronaut3315 2025-09-0518:27

Also not an electrician.

A concern for high current outlets in the US, such as NEMA 14-50, is that they weren't necessarily designed for a large number of plug/unplug cycles. Typically you'd plug your stove in and leave it there for years to decades.

If you use the same 14-50 outlet for car charging, which is not uncommon, the contacts can lose their grip over time. End users may want to take their mobile EVSE with them and incur cycles on the outlet. Properly installed but worn 14-50s have been known to melt or even catch fire under these conditions.

End users should prefer to have their EVSE(s) hardwired or installed with a higher grade outlet like Hubbell or Bryant.

By hvb2 2025-09-065:45

Having charged 2 EVs on wall sockets for years, I've not seen them go over 12 amps, so that checks out.

One of those was a leaf

By eldaisfish 2025-09-0613:52

i'm always surprised how people here downvote correct information. This is 100% correct because heat in electrical wiring is a function of power (current) and time. The vast majority of electrical devices in a typical home use under 80% of their rated power. The few that do use their full power, like a resistive heater, often do not run continuously.

In contrast, it is completely normal to charge an EV at a socket's maximum power for over ten hours straight. This time component is why charging EVs from a regular AC outlet can be a fire risk.

By quesera 2025-09-0522:40

FWIW, oven/range circuits are notoriously overspecified.

Code in the US is 220V/50A. Your wall oven will get the same, despite having a much lower max draw than the usual oven/cooktop combination.

50A (upgraded from 30A several years ago) is specified for having the oven plus all cooktop elements ON. Maximum instantaneous draw will be below 50A. There's also the standard 20% headroom allotment, and some additional safety margin to account for the heat generated by all of the above being ON (or high duty cycle) for an extended period.

By msh 2025-09-0518:311 reply

https://aminacharging.com/articles/can-i-charge-my-car-in-a-...

By Miraste 2025-09-0518:581 reply

That still didn't explain anything. Surely the car could limit itself to 80% of standard socket rated output for continuous draw, like they do in other countries. Are Norwegian outlets commonly installed so far below spec that that will cause them to catch fire? What was the impetus for this regulation?

By msh 2025-09-0519:341 reply

I don’t know exactly for Norway as that was the best English article I could find. A standard danish outlet (they are crap) is 16A but is not rated for more than 6A if the load is continuous for more than 2 hours.

By aidenn0 2025-09-060:16

Then use a 6A charger? Assuming it's 2x the voltage of the US that's the same power as a 12A charger would be in the US, and I get plenty of charging at 16A (which is the maximum continuous load on a 20A circuit)

By barbazoo 2025-09-0515:432 reply

Source?

By schmookeeg 2025-09-0522:501 reply

I have a dryer outlet that caught fire charging our little i3. I'm not sure why GP said "some countries" -- I'm in the US. The heat warped the plastic just enough to bridge one leg of the power socket to ground. It got pretty melty before the house breaker stopped things.

The torched outlet was installed specifically to charge prior homeowner's EV and was only 3 years old.

I moved to an EV-rated 50A outlet which can handle the duty cycle. We have charged two EVs off of it and so far so good. It has a cute little green logo on it and costs 5x as much as a typical NEMA plug. :) Weighs about 5x as much too and grips the grizzl-e plug very tightly and with much larger contact areas.

I'm a believer.

By vel0city 2025-09-0614:241 reply

What was the specific connector for that "dryer outlet"? Was it an L6-30 30A receptacle that was constantly getting nearly 30A of load, or a cheaply made 14-50 outlet?

By seltzered_ 2025-09-0617:151 reply

The youtube channel 'State of Charge' has a number of videos talking about cheap connectors and/or lower spec connectors catching fire. Happens even on setups where people had a dedicated level 2 ev charger outlet (NEMA 14-50 , aka dryer outlet) but the installer used a connector not rated for enough current. See https://youtu.be/fzgxKChqjtc to start.

One needs to do one or possibly a combination of:

- Set the pin setting on a home charger for a lower current output. Theres also portable chargers with programmable current limiting, which I find more flexible.

- Replace with a better outlet/wiring setup. Many advocate for a hardwired setup over using an outlet.

By vel0city 2025-09-0617:32

> NEMA 14-50 , aka dryer outlet

The reason why I was asking for the outlet is precisely because "dryer outlet" can mean a lot of different things. Dryers in the US usually don't even come with cords out of the box because people may have a few different plugs. Does it have a neutral? Is it 30A or 50A? All possibilities for a "dryer outlet".

By msh 2025-09-0518:281 reply

https://aminacharging.com/articles/can-i-charge-my-car-in-a-...

By barbazoo 2025-09-0519:431 reply

> And since your car needs so much power stored in its battery to drive, it will probably pull more power than any other electrical appliance in your home.

Probably? No, it pulls less than my dryer which runs at 240V15A I think but also just the same as my 1500W space heater. You can totally control how much power the charger should draw.

> With that much power, there’s a risk of overheating and fire. Unlike a dedicated EV charger, a socket is simply not equipped to handle the amount of electricity needed to charge a car battery.

Wrong assumption leads to wrong conclusion. Any charger you can physically plug in will work in a house that's wired up to standard.

By msh 2025-09-0519:521 reply

Your dryer will load the socket for far less time than a car charger and will probably not use 15A for the entire drying cycle.

It’s the long charge time that leads to heat buildup, not the max amp.

Where I am from standard outlets can deliver 16A but are not rated for more than 6A if the load is longer than 2 hours.

By barbazoo 2025-09-0520:14

Here it's 15A and the charger itself actually tops out at 12A as is common. Perhaps that being common is how to avoid fires. I'm actually not sure now if that's a law or just best practice here.

By usui 2025-09-059:413 reply

How can you write "I bought the cheapest EV" in the blog title, and have a section called "Why buy Leaf?" followed by a one-liner zinger aphorism "Price." without writing... the price you bought your used Nissan Leaf for? Someone might want to reference how much it cost back in 2025 a few years down the road.

By geerlingguy 2025-09-0510:548 reply

$17k minus an extra $2k added to my Camry's trade-in value, and it's eligible for the $4k used vehicle EV tax rebate at the end of the year. So out the door $15k with 36k miles and 94% doh battery, I was satisfied with the deal.

At the end of the tax year I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.

I tacked on the price of the CHAdeMO adapter mentally to the price I offered, since I knew I'd want it for the one or two regional road trips I take per year.

By arbuge 2025-09-0518:172 reply

Re: the tax credit, note the income requirements here:

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-cr...

I don't know anything about your situation, but I'm guessing quite a bit of the readers here on HN from the US won't qualify.

By mtlynch 2025-09-0518:323 reply

>The sale qualifies only if:

>You buy the vehicle from a dealer.

This is such an annoying part of the tax incentive.

It's a huge, pointless gift to car dealers (who need no help) because it means they don't have to compete for price with private sellers or buyers. If I have a used EV to sell, I basically have to sell to the dealer because no buyer wants to bother buying from me when they can get the same thing from a dealer with a $4k tax credit on top.

By jeffmcjunkin 2025-09-0523:191 reply

KeySavvy is the normal workaround for this. $99 extra cost to both sides for them to handle the title verification and shipping, and to act as the dealer to make it qualify for EV credits.

By mtlynch 2025-09-0913:59

Wow, great tip! Thanks!

By taftster 2025-09-0523:211 reply

Maybe the car dealers have had a lobbyist that has influenced this to their favor. Wouldn't surprise me. But likewise, there's some formality and paperwork trails that exist when a dealership is involved vs. private party, so I wonder if the concern is some fraud or abuse in the private market as well. Regardless, I agree with you.

By loeg 2025-09-061:271 reply

Car dealers are a well-known, hugely influential lobby.

By taftster 2025-09-061:37

Given that, probably lobbyist influence then more than anything.

By supportengineer 2025-09-0523:051 reply

Not to mention there are severe income limits on the rebate

By taftster 2025-09-0523:251 reply

Right, set too low (imho). And not a graduated phase out either. And the market for these cars are going to be people typically past the income limit. My instinct tells me that people below the income limit ($75K/$150K) probably aren't really in the market for an EV. They are probably just trying to keep their regular gas vehicle running. An EV is almost a second/third car for a lot of people, commuters trying to offset their gasoline costs.

By loeg 2025-09-061:291 reply

Individual tax credits/deductions shouldn't have income limits / phaseout at all. We get the progressive taxation on the front end, with marginal tax brackets.

By taftster 2025-09-061:36

Totally agreed. But unfortunately, they often do.

By geerlingguy 2025-09-061:101 reply

My YouTube (mostly now) income is a fraction of what I used to make as a software architect—I'm well within the limits these days :)

By marcsto2 2025-09-062:572 reply

What's your channel :)

By mkingston 2025-09-065:54

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR-DXc1voovS8nhAvccRZhg

Jeff Geerling. Also the owner/author of the site we're discussing in this thread.

By gabesullice 2025-09-065:51

Jeff is a treasure! https://youtube.com/@jeffgeerling

By bapak 2025-09-0610:091 reply

> I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.

No you have not. You have paid $11k + a whole working car to get that one. I also can get a new iPhone every year "for only $500" if you consider the real price being "only $500 plus a year-old perfectly-working iPhone"

By me-vs-cat 2025-09-0713:511 reply

His trade-in car was a long way from "year-old perfectly-working".

Looking at $13k (which excludes his $2k trade-in), I'm left wondering if my own conditions are favorable for switching to EV.

By bapak 2025-09-0715:441 reply

The iPhone example was just to make it more obvious, but the logic still applies. It's 13k at best, not 11k

By skylurk 2025-09-0721:361 reply

I think you are misreading?

> $17k minus an extra $2k added to my Camry's trade-in value

This says the dealer paid a premium for the Camry to secure the deal on the Leaf. The Camry's full trade-in value was not given.

By bapak 2025-09-089:062 reply

Right, my initial statement applies: it's not "just $11k", it's a lot more.

By skylurk 2025-09-0819:39

How I read it, the deal could have been something like $5k (+$2k) for the trade-in car and $10k in cash. Later there is a $4k used EV tax rebate.

In this situation the cost works out to something like

5k + 10k - 4k = 11k

By brightball 2025-09-0518:131 reply

The deals on used electric vehicles are pretty shocking.

Used Chevy Volts are actually more expensive now than they were a few years back, at least on the CarMax website. Maybe a higher price because they were discontinued but I used to love my Volt. Averaged 150mpg over 3 years.

By throwawaylaptop 2025-09-0523:301 reply

During COVID lockdowns I got on a plane to San Diego and bought a 2013 Volt with 100k miles for $5500. It had warranty until 2023 and 150k miles (I didn't use it though). I have spent Zero dollars on repairs and I'm up to 207k miles. Favorite car ever.

By brightball 2025-09-0618:33

Still can’t believe they stopped making them.

By bradly 2025-09-0518:49

For another data point... I purchased a used 2011 Leaf for $5k a few years ago and still use it as my daily driver. It gets between ~50-70 miles per change and charges incredibly slow, but I'm been happy with it.

By leesec 2025-09-0518:421 reply

kind of nuts since a used tesla is within 5k of this

By supportengineer 2025-09-0523:06

You could get a whole other car for 5k

By pbronez 2025-09-0515:001 reply

BMW i3 are going for about the same.

By lagniappe 2025-09-0518:132 reply

and they're an absolute -nightmare- to maintain.... even with that being the case i still want one because russ hannaman had a point- everyone loves a car with doors that open like this \[]/ not like this =[]=

By klardotsh 2025-09-0518:342 reply

My 2017 i3 REX is just fine. It needs new tires before winter hits, an alignment (it gets knocked way out really easily, especially if you've ever taken it on a less than perfect road. Washington State has many such roads), and I should probably proactively do an oil change on the REX. Oh, and drivers seat heater has a short so doesn't work (the fix from BMW would be prohibitively expensive, but I may try a DIY re-wire).

Otherwise, this car is as close to a perfect daily driver I've ever owned. I hope it lasts forever: not a single touchscreen, no OTA updates, decent battery range (and DC Fast Charging at 60kW+), gas engine to fall back on (with OBD-II programming you can enable Hold State of Charge on the NA models allowing you to truly treat the i3 as a proper series-hybrid and not just an emergency limp-along range extender that will crap out going up a hill in the cold), comfy seats, and did I mention NO TOUCHSCREENS and NO OTA UPDATES?

By hedora 2025-09-0614:22

I haven’t had the alignment problem and our roads are probably worse than yours. Potholes, gravel, dirt, mountain switchbacks, etc.

I found that America’s Tires charges $200 less per set than the dealership, but I get steering wheel vibration at around 75-80mph. With dealership install, there’s no vibration up till the electronic limiter hits at 93mph. I’m not sure if handling the same and sounding the same at 65 and 93 mph is a feature or a bug though. :-)

This is the only car that they couldn’t align + balance prop Our local mechanic gets the balance to work up to about 85mph. Maybe have the dealership fix the alignment?

We know some people with an old leaf. On certain points in their commute the ADAS emergency brakes every single day. It’s particularly bad if someone is tailgating them as they approach that spot, though it can’t be good for the tires either.

Used i3’s are going for way under $17K these days, fwiw. I was actually shopping for a used leaf, and ended up with an i3.

By thijson 2025-09-0519:32

I just took mine on a fairly long trip, around 370 miles. I used the hold charge feature once the battery reached 75%. It was fun to drive through a hilly region, the battery got me up the hill, then the engine plus regen charged it back up to the set point on the way down the hill. I liked that I didn't have to touch the brakes.

The fuel tank is quite small, but it doesn't take long to fill.

Overall fuel consumption was around 6-8 gallons for the trip.

By sorenjan 2025-09-0520:281 reply

The i3 has suicide doors, the i8 is the one with three comma doors.

By lagniappe 2025-09-068:13

Sho you right

By mharrison 2025-09-0615:20

Not to be rude but I'm surprised you qualified for the tax credit...

By dzhiurgis 2025-09-0511:302 reply

Could've bought Model 3 for this and spend $300 for third party buttons. It has software thats actually somewhat hackable and car is far more capable. But I understand it's hard to recommend Tesla these days lol.

By alchemist1e9 2025-09-0512:053 reply

Ignoring any PR or political motivations, I’d argue the Leaf is a better choice for many people. I’m biased as I have one, quite similar, but let me give a pros from my perspective:

- a traditional car feeling, knobs, buttons, the way cars have been for decades prior

- very very reliable. basically never needs anything except wiper fluid. no software updates or crashing. I don’t have stats but might be one of most reliable cars

- compact and easy to park

- compatible with comma.ai

- LeafSpy diagnostics to monitor it

- nice hatchback format with fold down rear seats

- ~220 mile range is plenty for around town use and trickle charge overnight

Overall I’m very happy with it and while constantly tempted by Teslas I think I wouldn’t like them as much.

By geerlingguy 2025-09-0513:412 reply

Also CarPlay, which was on my shortlist of features I actually cared for in any newer car. Silly of Tesla to not support it out of the box (IMO).

By lotsofpulp 2025-09-0519:551 reply

I thought not having Carplay was a dealbreaker, then I tried shopping other brands and they wanted $15 to $25 per month for remote start, so I went with Tesla. Plus Tesla had dash cam recording, which somehow no one else has yet? And of course, don’t have to deal with a stupid dealer with Tesla, just bought sitting on the couch at home.

Anyway, not having CarPlay has not been an issue. Although, it would have been nice to have.

By dzhiurgis 2025-09-0521:00

I’m picking up mine today from repairs. Some kids crashed their ute into me and left me fake details (I found them anyway via OSINT). Since I have full video insurance waived excess and going after them.

By dzhiurgis 2025-09-0519:511 reply

CarPlay is trash tho. Had a rental again last weekend. It’s core feature - google maps wrapper - is just barely useable. Sure it does other things, but it’s not worth the hassle.

By saagarjha 2025-09-068:49

CarPlay is much better than the alternatives.

By mbreese 2025-09-0513:011 reply

After dealing with Tesla service, I’d also put having a large and varied dealer network with potential third party service locations as a plus for the Leaf. The word potential is doing a lot of work here - having competitive service options is still an EV issue, IMO. But Tesla service is expensive and difficult to navigate. Texting with a mechanic can work, but a quick 2 min conversation with a person would have saved me multiple headaches. Part of the cost issue may be the ways the cars are built vs the actual shop costs, but parts costs for repair are likely to be higher for a Tesla, even with volume. I suspect getting a Leaf serviced should be easier/cheaper.

By dzhiurgis 2025-09-0519:54

Tesla parts are notoriously cheap and you aren’t forced to use Tesla service.

By dzhiurgis 2025-09-0519:57

[flagged]

By vannevar 2025-09-0513:512 reply

Could also have bought a used Chevy Bolt in this price range, with CCS, ~250mi range, and CarPlay.

By alchemist1e9 2025-09-0521:174 reply

For some reason when I charge at public chargers a very common vehicle next to me are those Chevy Bolts. If you’ve never compared them side by side you will be surprised, the Leaf is a MUCH nicer car, the Bolts just look way cheaper and lower quality vehicles.

I also don’t get this CCS drama, I have yet to come across an actual fast charger station that doesn’t have CHAdeMO in addition to the CCS connection. Maybe in my area of midwest all the charger stations were installed during the dual standard being the standard.

By WorldMaker 2025-09-0821:22

The 2026 Bolt moving to the Ultium platform may also improve some of the interior quality (because the battery platform will be cheaper again). It is probably a couple months still before we can easily test drive one to get a good feel, but I am curious to see what they do with the new model, especially because GM is especially returning it to be their cheapest EV.

By vannevar 2025-09-073:53

I drove both before I bought the Bolt. The Leaf does have a nicer interior. While I wouldn't say it's a huge gap, it was noticeable. But the Leaf also felt heavier and more sluggish. In the end, the extra range, the CCS charge port, and the better driving feel (at least to me) made me prefer the Bolt.

By alchemist1e9 2025-09-060:051 reply

I’m wrong about CCS, can’t edit this long after so replying here to myself to clarify.

I’m dumb, of course I always see CHAdeMO because my charger app is set to that for DC fast. Duh … a friend said unset filters and yeah there are more CCS DC fast.

By geerlingguy 2025-09-064:181 reply

Yeah, in St. Louis metro, I think there are only like 2-3 CHAdeMO chargers, period.

On the trip to Chicago, I only see 4 plugs on the way, and those are all at dealerships... which often have cars parked in front of them, so I can't really rely on those being available :D

By alchemist1e9 2025-09-064:59

I’m looking on the Chargepoint App and I see some CHAdeMO DC Fast in both Springfield and Bloomington. They tend to be in strip mall parking lots near Home Depots and Walmarts.

That said having a CCS adapter working is very interesting and I will be following your experience as I have similar a Leaf to you (2021 SV Plus)

https://github.com/geerlingguy/electric-car/issues/9

I am very happy with my 2021 Leaf. It’s a very solid around town and commute vehicle. Anyone comparing it to Bolts doesn’t understand the Nissan build quality is just much better, Leaf is in a different league of design, refinement, and reliability.

One thing I would recommend is a set of winter wheels and tires if you’re in St Louis.

I’m on the fence about buying a comma.ai Comma 3x to try with it. The ProPILOT Assist built in is pretty helpful on long distance highways and the Comma 3x adds a bunch of interesting capabilities. My hesitation is partially insurance related, I’m not sure what Geico will say about it if you’re in an accident for example when it was engaged.

fwiw I’m confident after reading your post and watching you video you made the right choice for you and your objectives.

By turtlebits 2025-09-065:30

The Bolt EV has 100 miles more range and IMO a better interior.

By dzhiurgis 2025-09-0522:551 reply

Safety rating and HEPA air filters?

Tesla isn’t excellent with kids in back either.

By vannevar 2025-09-073:59

NHTSA crash ratings for the Bolt are slightly better than the Leaf. I don't know about the HEPA air filters.

By loloquwowndueo 2025-09-0510:571 reply

You could jump into your local used car listing site and check for yourself.

In here a used 2022 leaf goes for about $20-22K CAD. 2016 models go as low as $8K - those had a range of about 120km when new.

By dzhiurgis 2025-09-0511:312 reply

In NZ you can get a Leaf for $1-2k, about 50km range remaining.

By mrkstu 2025-09-0518:332 reply

50k is equivalent to driving around with a low fuel warning constantly on your dash

By boznz 2025-09-0619:35

That was the norm when I was a student..

By saagarjha 2025-09-068:50

Not if your commute is a few miles.

By klardotsh 2025-09-0518:382 reply

I'm guessing distances in NZ are shorter, or you're only planning to use that vehicle in the urban city core. Here in the US, 50km range barely gets me to the ferry terminal to get into Seattle, and that's assuming 50km is at 55mph rural highway speeds and isn't assuming I'm driving 25mph in the city.

Put otherwise: if the battery is so degraded you only get 30mi/50km range out of it, I see why it's selling for $2000.

By jstanley 2025-09-067:45

Fwiw, electric cars are more efficient the slower you're going because inefficiency mostly comes from air resistance.

By dzhiurgis 2025-09-060:59

Definitely only as a secondary/ runabout car. You’d need a proper one occasionally. Shame car share isn’t well established yet cuz that would be viable alternative.

By anotheryou 2025-09-0510:03

I skimmed for way to long to realize it's just not in there...