This map is not upside down

2025-09-1817:47364512www.maps.com

While conventional and commonplace today, maps have not always had north at the top. And they don't need to.


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Comments

  • By patternMachine 2025-09-1818:2613 reply

    The moralizing that always accompanies (not) upside down maps is so tedious. It's a genuinely interesting example of how something can look so wrong and yet not be wrong at all. To try to extend that "wrong" feeling to some kind of moral failure on the viewers part is just silly. You (or society) are not a bad or prejudiced person for thinking this way, it's just that nearly all maps produced have chosen a different arbitrary orientation.

    • By vincvinc 2025-09-197:004 reply

      Oh? I think the outrage over making the reader feel like "a bad or prejudiced person" that accompanies any invitation to challenge assumptions is so tedious.

      How come this culture war mindset infuses everything we do online now?

      Nowhere does this map or its description even imply you are a bad person.

      It's pure ... projection

      • By Attrecomet 2025-09-1911:244 reply

        "Deciding to put south, or north, at the top of maps is a decision of consequence. Psychologically, we tend to view things nearer the top as ‘good’ and those lower as ‘bad.’ This can influence our interpretation of maps at both global and local scales."

        There it is, the implication that "North is up" is morally bad. Since it's an implication, it does not need to be read that way, but it's clearly there.

      • By BolexNOLA 2025-09-1915:26

        They are probably responding to this:

        >Deciding to put south, or north, at the top of maps is a decision of consequence. Psychologically, we tend to view things nearer the top as ‘good’ and those lower as ‘bad.’ This can influence our interpretation of maps at both global and local scales

        I think they are certainly doing a lot of inferring here, but I wouldn't call it "pure projection."

      • By nathan_compton 2025-09-1912:521 reply

        Nuclear pun.

    • By j4coh 2025-09-194:504 reply

      I don’t seem to even get this effect, the map looks upside down not mind blowing. If I turn a mug over it’s not a mind blowing new thing, it’s an upside down mug.

      • By strken 2025-09-1911:182 reply

        Steady on now: there's an interesting psychological effect going on. A well known art exercise is to draw a subject upside down, particularly a person or a scene with a clear usual orientation.

        When you take something you're very familiar with and turn it upside down, you see all the details - volume, shape, distance between points, geometric similarity, colour - with fresh eyes. With art, it becomes easier to draw a human figure because it discourages symbol drawing. With a map, I find it helps me realise how close certain points are to each other, how small politically significant regions are, which lattitude different climate bands sit at, and so on.

        A mug is a pretty boring object which we're all used to seeing upside down and which doesn't have many interesting features, so of course turning it upside down will not reveal anything interesting.

      • By vasco 2025-09-196:091 reply

        Also probably every single kid that ever played with a map has turn it around a million times, this is a very naive 2deep4u kinda post.

      • By jcattle 2025-09-199:502 reply

        Your analogy is not quite appropriate. An upside down mug is "wrong". The mug looses its meaning and you have to turn it around to use it as a mug.

        That's not the case with a map. An "upside down" map is just as valid as a right side up map.

        The fact that it is upside down is not supposed to mind blowing, it's the fact that it isn't upside down at all. We are just used to it being represented this way up, but there's nothing in the physical world which prescribes north to be up.

      • By isqueiros 2025-09-198:393 reply

        a mug cannot function when upside down and yet when you change the arbitrary orientation of a map it can still function the same you literally missed the point of the _title_ of the article, quite impressive

    • By duxup 2025-09-1917:42

      Agreed. The process of finger wagging is counter productive.

      I had an HR training session that was intended to help folks see things from other perspectives, but by other perspectives they meant a sort of generic minority perspective ... and a lot of finger wagging.

      Nobody enjoyed it. It was all unnecessarily adversarial and represented the shallowest cliches. Nobody thought any of the cliches applied to them about any background because they were so absurd. It was of no use except to make everyone kinda hate HR for wasting their time.

      I recall an Obama speech where he noted how telling someone that they have advantages over someone else is not an effective route to influence people. For all you know they think they've had a really hard life ... and maybe they have, you really don't know.

    • By YurgenJurgensen 2025-09-191:001 reply

      It’s also one of those things that gets repeated as a ‘myth’ or ‘misconception’ so often that nowadays, the real misconception is that there is a significant population of literate humans who haven’t encountered this topic at least once.

      • By dalmo3 2025-09-1923:45

        C'mon, let teenagers have some fun.

    • By stareatgoats 2025-09-197:24

      Well, it's not "wrong" to balk at seeing the world from a different point of view than the convention dictates. What is "wrong" is any insistence that the conventional view is the correct (or "right") one. Moralizing is never a good thing, but it is quite in order to criticize attitudes that equates an upside map to an upside cup, or to evil mindsets, such attitudes are widespread. It's an invitation to accept that our conventions are - conventions, not truths. How "something can look so wrong and yet not be wrong at all" doesn't come naturally, it has to be learned through examples like this.

    • By beloch 2025-09-1917:49

      It is correct to observe that "Up = North" is merely a convention, but there's usually a reason for conventions. e.g. We drive on a particular side of the road because that is a convention enforced by both the law (in most places) and our own desire for self-preservation. Disobeying the conventions of map-making is comparatively safe, unless you're trying to navigate by such a map.

    • By hans_castorp 2025-09-1914:29

      Maps where Europe and Asia are on the left and the Americas are on the right are also quite irritating - but not wrong either.

    • By taco_emoji 2025-09-1914:161 reply

      I mean I think we are all clearly prejudiced, given that our brains just immediately pre-judge such a map as upside-down. Nobody, or at least certainly not the OP, is calling us bad for doing so.

      It's the same as logical fallacies: you're not a bad person for falling prey to them, but they ARE something you should be aware of if you're trying to make logical arguments.

      • By xigoi 2025-09-1920:24

        Following a convention is not prejudice. Conventions are generally a good thing.

    • By benrutter 2025-09-198:37

      Is the moralizing you're referencing coming from the article or comments?

      I can't see anything in either implying people are bad for seeing world maps as "upside down" when the Southern Hemisphere is at the top. The article does say that looking at it that way "encourages us to think more deeply about such conventions" - I don't think it's saying people are morally bad/prejudiced/etc (or anything) for accepting those conventions.

      I don't want to acuse but it seems to me like you're assuming a response from an imagined liberal-woke-type-persona(tm) that doesn't exist?

    • By Biganon 2025-09-1915:031 reply

      Ask 100 random people in the US whether they think "top" is "better associated" with "good" and "down" is "better associated" with "bad", or the other way round. You can even use arrows and randomize the way you ask the question, if you want.

      If you come up with a majority of people telling you "down" is "better associated" with "good", I'll live stream myself on Twitch eating the pair of socks I'm currently wearing.

      Also, how typical HN to take something that's absolutely obvious and deny it, just so you can escape the terrible idea that you might be subject to unconscious bias.

      • By non_aligned 2025-09-1918:14

        I think you're addressing the wrong part of the argument. Of course there are loose associations between concepts that manifest on abstract word-association tasks.

        It is a considerably stronger yet less-supported statement that these biases fundamentally corrupt your thinking: that you look at Australia and can't help yourself but think it's 10% worse than Greenland.

        It is an even stronger and even less-supported statement the world is going to be better off if we stop using certain tainted words or drawing maps in a certain way - i.e., that these biases hurt people and can be excised with one simple linguistic or cartographic trick.

        It's a lot easier to interpret these debates as the manifestation of a bad personality trait: the desire to get sanctimonious about how other people are living their lives.

    • By JuettnerDistrib 2025-09-1823:19

      I kinda feel this way about variable names in physics. You could call the (x,y,z) components of the magnetic field (L,M,N), see [0]. There are so many people who call that utterly wrong, but really it's totally fine and merely a source of confusion.

      [0] page 907: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/andp.190532...

    • By whstl 2025-09-1821:115 reply

      As someone from the southern hemisphere, the only thing more patronizing and infuriating than this is the insistence from the same moralizing group that my country isn’t part of “The West”, despite it being physically and culturally there.

      • By parineum 2025-09-195:176 reply

        "The West" is Western Europe and it's colonial/cultural derivatives.

        It hasn't been a directional term for centuries. Everyone intuitively knows this based on the usage but, every now and then, someone like you thinks they are clever and nobody else understands.

      • By vasco 2025-09-196:132 reply

        West and east don't make sense on a globe. It makes a little sense as relative directions to some point.

        But it makes no sense to use them as topological area boundaries. It's a globe, nothing is "in the west". Things can just be "west of something" which really just is shorthand for "you'll get there faster going west than east".

      • By travisjungroth 2025-09-1823:494 reply

        The West only makes sense in the Northern Hemisphere. I’m in Peru right now, and people talk about the local cultures in comparison to Western culture and I find it kind of confusing. They’re certainly not Eastern here.

        It gets unconfusing if you realize it just means White.

      • By kqr 2025-09-1910:072 reply

        I try to say "countries around the northern Atlantic" because that's really what people mean by "West".

      • By voxleone 2025-09-1913:09

        I have a feeling you're a fellow Brazilian. Brazil has been Catholic for ages, so leaving it out of the “Western” category is honestly laughable. That said, the map actually gets it right -- it shows Brazil as not Western, but in a way that’s not cringey.

    • By a3w 2025-09-1819:582 reply

      For clarity, you cannot call north up:

      North is not up. That would make left west. When standing in front of a building, with map in hand, and asking people to go start going to the street in the south, then left, I mean left in direction of travel, which is east.

      Not left in direction of map conventions, which for people who cannot read a compass is probably west.

      • By bobbylarrybobby 2025-09-1822:371 reply

        North being up doesn't make left west because left is relative to front, not up, and front can easily change directions whereas up cannot (at least not relative to the direction of gravity). It happens that when you're looking at a map mounted on a wall with north up, west is left, but if you were to turn 90° left yourself, then west would be straight (front). This is all consistent with north being up.

      • By miki_oomiri 2025-09-192:10

        > North is not up. That would make left west.

        Nope. You're confusing up and front.

  • By hyperhello 2025-09-1817:5917 reply

    > Psychologically, we tend to view things nearer the top as ‘good’ and those lower as ‘bad.’

    This, of course, is the point of the article. It was so predictable that it made me wonder: who is telling me that top is good and lower is bad? The articles themselves.

    • By schoen 2025-09-1818:304 reply

      At one point a character in Eco's Foucault's Pendulum says "archetypes don't exist, the body exists" and then gives some sexual and reproductive examples, followed by

      > And high is better than low, because if you have your head down, the blood goes to your brain, because feet stink and hair doesn’t stink as much, because it’s better to climb a tree and pick fruit than end up underground, food for worms, and because you rarely hurt yourself hitting something above—you really have to be in an attic—while you often hurt yourself falling. That’s why up is angelic and down devilish.

      You could also argue that because of gravity and potential energy, up is usually the result of purposive action and effort, while down is often the result of accident or neglect ("you often hurt yourself falling"). That potential energy (and wide-open space) can also be used for maneuvering, so if two people or other creatures are fighting, one who is higher is generally at an advantage compared to one who is lower or lying on the ground. The lower party has less energy available to direct toward the opponent, and usually less room to move, being more constrained by the presence of the ground.

      • By nathan_compton 2025-09-1912:571 reply

        I think its pretty weird to take this passage at face value. "Foucault's Pendulum" is, at least in part, about how facile this kind of yarn spinning is. Any prejudice or conclusion anyone might like to make is a few waves of the hand away from something that looks like a good argument.

        Interestingly, Aristotelian physics would have described down as "the true, appropriate place" for material objects and "up" as the unnatural state, only produced by violence and bound to be corrected by the universe.

      • By navane 2025-09-1820:213 reply

        We print black on white. Does that mean that words are bad and only defile the blank sheet?

      • By cyanydeez 2025-09-1822:04

        It's probably even dumber than this: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10676768/

      • By hobs 2025-09-1819:343 reply

        > so if two people or other creatures are fighting, one who is higher is generally at an advantage compared to one who is lower or lying on the ground

        Tell that to a BJJ fighter.

    • By kens 2025-09-1820:594 reply

      I highly recommend the book "Metaphors We Live By", which discusses how metaphors are not arbitrary, but are part of schemas. For instance, there are whole classes of orientational metaphors that fall into the schemas: "more is up, less is down", "good is up, bad is down", "virtue is up, depravity is down", "rational is up, emotional is down", "having control is up, being subject to control is down", and so on. (Yes, I'm sure you're clever enough to find counterexamples.) This is a thought-provoking book that changed how I view the world, so check it out.

      The book: https://archive.org/details/lakoff-george-metaphors-we-live-...

      Norvig's review discussing the book in the context of AI: https://norvig.com/mwlb.html

      • By 542354234235 2025-09-1914:39

        Or how some cultures see time "passing" like a progress bar filling up, while others see time filling up like a barrel, while other see time cycling, like the seasons. How English speakers would say they have a "long" meeting, Spanish speakers might say a "big" meeting. Our abstractions effect our perceptions.

      • By Levitz 2025-09-1912:56

        The problem is not considering them arbitrary or not. We are sure to derive expressions from reality in some way, I'm sure that many languages have different versions of saying that something is so boring it puts someone "to sleep", no matter if speech is not hypnotic, the human experience will relate the boredom with sleep.

        The problem is when from that we derive, with little justification and with the by now widely recognized horrible standards of social science, that in those rationalizations lie very important hidden truths about our society and psychology.

        Many things boil down to an implicit association test of some sort, and that's now considered basically junk science.

        There's a pipeline in which basically anything that can be considered a social issue in some way can get picked up by someone in the social sciences whose biases it confirms and given a justification, and since it has a political backing and is powered by preconceived bias and academia it goes through and actually has a negative effect on the world.

        The stupid Stanford prison experiment. Facilitated communication. Power posing. Trigger warnings. Learning styles. Priming. All bullshit. All popular. All part of "the science".

        And people wonder why there's a problem of institutional trust.

      • By dingaling 2025-09-1821:023 reply

        [flagged]

    • By blargey 2025-09-1822:274 reply

      Are you feeling down, or are things looking up for you?

      Do you have people to look up to, or do you spend more time looking down on others?

      Are you on top of the world, or working your way up from the bottom?

      Etc, etc. It's suffused throughout our language, and not just this one language, either.

      • By Leszek 2025-09-1911:082 reply

        Are you down for looking for counterexamples? Do you want to get to the bottom of why people cherry pick examples for their argument? Is this what you want to base your argument on, or should it be grounded in a more complete linguistic analysis?

      • By themaninthedark 2025-09-192:22

        It's up in the air, I could be High as a kite!

      • By xigoi 2025-09-1920:341 reply

        What’s up with people thinking that the word “up” cannot have negative connotations?

      • By t-3 2025-09-1822:302 reply

        It's wrong in any case. The center is the most important part.

      • By alabhyajindal 2025-09-1818:144 reply

        First time seeing this and it feels so offensive. I'm somewhat okay with the term developed and developing countries, though not too much [1]. But this just feels discriminatory.

        1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factfulness

      • By koyote 2025-09-1821:351 reply

        That is such an odd list.

        I also love that Singapore is both 'developing' on this list and int the Small Island Developing States list, despite it easily being in the top 10 of most developed countries in the world.

      • By thw_9a83c 2025-09-1820:303 reply

        Such grouping is based on dubious theories. For example, China is classified as a "developing economy" (red), even though it is one of only three countries with the independent capability to send humans into Earth's orbit using its own launch systems and spacecraft.

      • By tintor 2025-09-1820:581 reply

        How is Australia part of Global North? :)

    • By davidczech 2025-09-1818:103 reply

      I'd bet a lot of this behavior is heavily correlated with how we generally read top to bottom, which is in itself, probably an arbitrary decision made by ancient text writers.

      • By vman81 2025-09-1818:132 reply

        Writing top to bottom, and even left to right has/had advantages for mostly right-handed writers to avoid moving your hand over and smudging previously written text.

      • By ks2048 2025-09-1818:153 reply

        I’m not sure it’s arbitrary.

        For one, starting at the top and ending at the bottom is natural progress of things because of gravity.

        I’m not sure if that means anything, but down-to-up seems very unnatural (of coure I can’t ignore my cultural biases). Is there any writing systems like that?

      • By bandie91 2025-09-1911:57

        > arbitrary

        where is your writing-capable organ relative to your reading organs?

    • By abtinf 2025-09-1820:051 reply

      Those who claim the top is viewed as good by most people would also have to defend the claim that most people are Alaskan supremacists.

      • By Rebelgecko 2025-09-1822:20

        They're subservient to Santa, who is the uppermost

    • By alwa 2025-09-1818:161 reply

      I mean, and.. with the map South-up, all the stuff is crammed down at the bottom now, no?

      Aren’t most of the people and land and things in the North part? A casual Google [0] suggests 88% of the humans, for example?

      I don’t understand the “good” and “bad” thing, but it does make sense to me that you scan something “earlier” or “later” in casting your eye across a mass of stuff.

      If we read from top to bottom… doesn't it make sense to put the part where the stuff is earlier in order than the part with mainly oceans?

      It makes slightly more sense to me to argue about which continental masses should go on the left or the right of the map, e.g. [1]. Although compositionally, if you put the Eurasian continent on the left side (“first” for left-to-right readers), doesn’t the massive Pacific exaggerate the impression of a discontinuity or a vast gap between geographical clusters of humans?

      [0] https://brilliantmaps.com/human-hemisphere/#:~:text=88%25%20...

      [1] https://www.mapresources.com/products/world-digital-vector-r...

      • By bobsmooth 2025-09-1818:251 reply

        >I don’t understand the “good” and “bad” thing

        The author has an inferiority complex.

    • By rafram 2025-09-1820:001 reply

      Started at the bottom, now we're here.

      Up-and-coming.

      Top-of-the-line.

      I could go on, but I don't want to get you down.

      • By staplers 2025-09-191:06

        Our eyes are at the top of our body and humans are generally tall (standing up). You look forward and then look down naturally.

        We generally read top down because of this. We generally want the bulk of information at the same level as our eyes. It's why tv's aren't on the ground.

        I feel like many are overthinking this.

    • By nomdep 2025-09-1822:21

      And the follow up question: why the author want to flip the map to see the countries at the top as bad and the lower ones as good?

    • By seanmcdirmid 2025-09-1918:07

      There is the term "global south", but 90% of the poor countries that are considered part of the global south are actually north of the equator. Its only really western Europe that is abnormally north to give such a skewed perspective.

    • By MangoToupe 2025-09-1823:481 reply

      Out of curiosity, why do you think humanity tends to read from top down? We do have inherent bias living in a world with gravity. Though such bias may be subtle, and any attempts to evince deep meaning futile, it is nevertheless present.

      • By vladms 2025-09-1910:481 reply

        I think might have more to do with the ink getting wiped/mangled when the first books were written. Even today, if I would be to fill a page bottom to up while writing with an ink pen, I would probably make some mess of the text already written.

        Same reason for writing left to right probably (given someone that writes with the right, but that seems to be more common).

    • By notmyjob 2025-09-1819:56

      Heaven and hell, not hell and heaven. The stock market goes up as spirits rise.

    • By y-curious 2025-09-1818:141 reply

      They link this[1] article, which I don't plan to read. I, too, rolled my eyes.

      1: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/194855061140104...

      • By dvt 2025-09-1818:251 reply

        I read it and their methodology is embarassingly bad, especially for the kind of study that can be done en masse so easily (heck, a Twitter poll would be more useful). N=28, where all were undergraduates, and 24 were women. Could easily be influenced by the college campus, location, student housing, etc. It's literally the kind of project you'd do in middle school for a science fair.

        Absolutely terrible study. Full paper is here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258189192_Spatial_M...

    • By paxys 2025-09-1819:343 reply

      Really? Before you read this article you never associated being on top = good and being at the bottom = bad?

      • By blueflow 2025-09-1819:39

        Probably as kid, but at some point in maturing you learn that what you consider good/bad is your own prejudice and working off that is going to cause social troubles.

      • By themaninthedark 2025-09-191:32

        I'm going to catch a movie downtown, about a plucky underdog from one of the Low Countries, NETHERland in particular.

      • By bromuro 2025-09-192:23

        Doesn’t the meaning of a word depend from its context ? Why the bottom of a map should be “bad”?

  • By jcmontx 2025-09-1820:093 reply

    Honorary mention to one of the officials maps of Argentina https://www.ign.gob.ar/gallery-app/mapas-escolares-202307/me...

    • By aptitude_moo 2025-09-190:35

      Just to clarify, it might be official but I'm argentinean and I never saw a map like this with south on top

    • By BaardFigur 2025-09-1823:053 reply

      Casually claiming a bunch of British territories

    • By phyzix5761 2025-09-1822:16

      Wow this is so cool! Thanks for sharing.

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