Why don't people return their shopping carts?

2025-11-1716:52143409behavioralscientist.org

For reasons I can’t fully explain, people’s failure to return their carts bothers me more than it probably should. But then I realized I can do something about it.

I arrived on the scene early one Saturday. The suspects were long gone, but the evidence remained. One cart was wedged into a curb, another sat toppled over in a parking spot, a third drifted like a metal tumbleweed across the lot. My question: Why don’t people return their shopping carts?

I’m a psychologist who has spent the past decade studying how we think about our own behavior in relation to others. Perhaps the choice to not return a shopping cart seems trivial, but what we do with our cart says a lot about how we think about others and what we believe we owe one another (or don’t).

I’ve never understood why people don’t put their carts away. In high school, I worked as a shopping cart attendant at my local grocery store, shepherding carts across the lot. Since then, for reasons I can’t fully explain, people’s failure to return their carts bothers me more than it probably should, with every trip to the grocery store a reminder of the special kind of havoc humanity is capable of.

Then last year, on a windy weekend morning in a Wegman’s parking lot, it hit me. Not a cart, but the realization that I can do something productive about it. 

So I approached the question of shopping cart abandonment the way I would any puzzle about human behavior: I collected data. My evidence came from an unlikely source: Cart Narcs, a small group whose mission is to encourage cart return, sometimes gently, sometimes less so. They upload their efforts on their YouTube channel, which boasts hundreds of videos recorded between 2020 and 2025, taking place mostly in California, but also Nevada, Texas, Louisiana, New York, Canada, Australia, and England. Cart abandonment, it turns out, knows no regional bounds. As of September 2025, these videos have collectively been viewed over 90 million times. (See below for one of the tamer videos.)

I watched a total of 564 encounters between Cart Narcs and cart abandoners. These don’t represent a perfectly random sample of interactions, but together they capture a broad cross-section of everyday behavior. (And, as far as I know, it’s the largest archive of shopping cart behavior available.) Most interactions begin the same way: Someone leaves their cart and a Cart Narc requests they return it. At this point I documented what happened next, transcribing parking lot reactions word for unhinged word. To be clear, this was not a quick process. I spent dozens of weekend hours hunched over my computer pausing and replaying YouTube videos. People in my life called this “concerning” and a “waste of time.” I called it research. 

My approach was inductive, which is a fancy way of saying that I had neither theory nor hypotheses. Instead, I let the data speak for itself, coding people’s raw (and wildly unfiltered) responses. Over time, patterns emerged, and eventually, I was left with a detailed catalog of behavior, complete with justifications, deflections, hostility, and, miraculously, humanity.

Why don’t people return their carts?

People had all sorts of reactions to being asked to do the right thing (see Figure 1). There were those who deflected, challenging the question itself rather than answering it. Do you work here? Are you the cart police? Do you represent this company? Who are you? Can I see your ID? Do you have any authority? Who do you work for? Who do you think you are? Why don’t you get a real job? 

Figure 1: People’s responses to being asked to return their cart. Note: Responses are not mutually exclusive. 

Some responded with anger and aggression. They yelled, cursed, and mocked. Some threatened to (or did) call law enforcement. Others escalated further, brandishing weapons like guns, tasers, or knives. “I’m gonna slash your face,” warned one man. “Why don’t I kick your ass?” asked another. A third shopper told the Cart Narc, “This is how you get killed.” If only returning the cart stirred as much passion as did refusing to.

Then there were the many, many excuses. In over half of the encounters I watched, shoppers provided at least one justification for their choice to abandon the cart (see Figure 2).

Many invoked entitlement, sometimes mentioning an identity they believed exempted them from common decency. “I worked at Safeway for lots of years and people left their carts all the time,” one man said. Another explained his choice to leave his cart by saying, “After 40 years of working retail grocery, I’ve earned it.” Earned what, exactly? The right to not pick up after yourself?

There were those who cited physical limitations barring them from cart return. “I’m 72 years old. I can’t walk that far,” explained a man after pushing his cart to the furthest edge of the lot. Another shopper clarified her choice to leave the cart in the middle of a handicap parking spot by mentioning, “I’m handicapped myself.” And one woman, upon being confronted about leaving her cart, declared, “I have really bad vertigo,” before getting behind the wheel and driving away. To be clear: Disabilities deserve accommodation. But if you could push the full cart to your car, why couldn’t you return the empty one?

Figure 2: Excuses provided for not returning the cart. Note: These excuses are not mutually exclusive. 

Other people were simply too busy to return their carts. “I’m over an hour late to my own kid’s birthday party,” revealed one hurried shopper. “We have somewhere we need to be,” another alleged, before spending the next eight minutes arguing with the Cart Narc about how he didn’t have time to return his cart. Some mentioned inconvenience. “Them carts don’t even roll,” one shopper complained, after going out of his way to dig the wheels of his cart straight into grass and dirt.

Many justified their behavior by invoking norms and pointing to other cart abandoners. “Everyone else puts them there,” one shopper said, leaving his cart with a gaggle of similarly unreturned ones. “The culture around here is doing it,” insisted another, as if not returning one’s cart were a local tradition. This reasoning—everyone else does it—pairs best with a juice box and a timeout. If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you?

Another type of excuse invoked other people by shifting responsibility (or blame) to others. Many shoppers pointed to their choice to leave the cart as a form of job stability or creation. “They pay someone to collect them all” explained one man. Another insisted that returning the cart is selfish because, “You’re putting someone out of a job.” It’s true that many stores do employ people to gather carts, but the job is to collect them from designated return areas—not to chase them down across the lot like loose cattle.

In some interactions I watched, people feigned ignorance. Like the woman who was unaware that carts shouldn’t be left on the curb: “I don’t know where we’re supposed to put them. I typically stop at Ralph’s.” As if basic decency is wildly store-specific. 

My personal favorite justifications were the ones that invoked habitual good behavior, explaining their choice to not return their cart by saying they always put their cart away. “Ninety-nine percent of the time I put it back,” insisted a shopper after not putting his back. 

But, between the shouting and the excuses, there were people who, upon being asked to return their cart, did. Some weren’t happy about it. “There’s too much going on in the world to pay attention to that,” one man grumbled while wheeling his back to the corral. Another threatened to break the Cart Narc’s arm before, incredibly, returning his cart. Others returned theirs silently. A few even owned up to their mistake. “I just got Cart Narc-ed! I apologize,” said one shopper. (Watch one cart abandoner’s mea culpa below). 

What does behavioral science say?

We can also look to existing research in the social and behavioral sciences for insight into why people don’t return their carts. 

People respond to incentives. At Aldi, for example, you can’t take a cart without first inserting a quarter. When you’re done, you return the cart and get your quarter back. According to Aldi, this system saves customers money: By eliminating the need to pay employees to collect stray carts, Aldi can keep their prices low. (This kind of deposit system is standard in many European countries.) 

But if you Google “Aldi shopping carts,” you’ll find countless blog posts, articles, and videos explaining how to get around the quarter system, suggesting incentives have limits.

People respond to signals of hierarchy. Many of the cart abandoners I watched justified their choice by saying, “They pay people to do that.” The implication was that returning the cart would deprive someone of work—or worse, that the task of cart return was beneath them. The grocery store where I worked in high school didn’t bother trying to incentivize people to return their carts. Instead, they cemented the hierarchy by hiring teenagers like me to wheel carts out to people’s cars, not wanting to burden their clientele with the task of cart return. Even in stores where returning the cart is expected, people may fail to do so if they feel the task of cart return is beneath them. Seeing a task as low status makes neglecting it feel more permissible. 

People respond to social norms. Psychologists distinguish between descriptive norms (what people do) and injunctive norms (what people think they’re supposed to do). When we see carts scattered across a parking lot, the descriptive norm tells us that leaving them is fine. But when we see other people returning their carts, it can feel wrong not to. Social norms cut both ways: They can excuse cart abandonment but also encourage cart return. 

Promoting cart return might be as simple as setting a new norm. The insight that people adjust their behavior to match what they believe others are doing has powered countless “norm campaigns” from hotel signs reminding guests that most people reuse their towels to university initiatives curbing binge drinking by publicizing that most students do not drink excessively. In fact, shopping carts had their own norm campaign. In 1969, a retired grocer declared FebruaryReturn Shopping Carts to the Supermarket” month, in an attempt to recover stolen shopping carts. Norms can tell us what to do, but not always why it’s worth doing them.

But people respond to meaning. Without a deposit system or a norm campaign, the most effective motivator might be reframing the act itself. Like Blockbuster’s “Be Kind, Rewind,” which turned something that felt like a chore into a small act of kindness and a favor for the next person. Or, drawing from something more serious, the “Friends Don’t Let Friends Drive Drunk,” campaign that turned an uncomfortable confrontation into a gesture of loyalty. 

So, do your part, return your cart. Not because the cart matters, but because returning it means other people do.


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Comments

  • By hpdigidrifter 2025-11-1718:4512 reply

    I assume it's generally unbecoming to reference 4chan posts for an academic but surprised the Shopping Cart theory didn't get a mention given how close it was to the subject matter.

    >“The shopping cart is the ultimate litmus test for whether a person is capable of self-governing. To return the shopping cart is an easy, convenient task and one we all recognize as the correct, appropriate thing to do. To return the shopping cart is objectively right. There are no situations other than dire emergencies in which a person is not able to return their cart. Simultaneously, it is not illegal to abandon your shopping cart. Therefore, the shopping cart presents itself as the apex example of whether a person will do what is right without being forced to do it.”

    >“No one will punish you for not returning the shopping cart, no one will fine you, or kill you for not returning the shopping cart. You gain nothing by returning the shopping cart. You must return the shopping cart out of the goodness of your own heart. You must return the shopping cart because it is the right thing to do. Because it is correct. The Shopping Cart Theory, therefore, is a great litmus test on whether a person is a good or bad member of society.”

    • By cedws 2025-11-185:184 reply

      My completely unqualified opinion is that this kind of behaviour is linked directly to intellectual ability. Returning the cart requires self-discipline but also implies a thought process around upholding and creating social order. Even fear of shame implies a desire to uphold social standing with others.

      Whereas not returning the cart can only be explained in two ways: a thought process that says ‘not my problem’ (selfish, disorderly, bad for society) or no thought process at all, like an animal with no higher order thinking.

      • By eesmith 2025-11-185:353 reply

        I strongly doubt it is related to intellectual ability but cultural expectations.

        Some years back someone did a study about which country's US diplomats at the UN had the highest number of NYC parking tickets. Diplomats don't need to pay parking fines due to immunity. This is very similar to returning shopping carts.

        As I recall, it was clearly correlated with country, which in turn was connected to national corruption rates. Ahh, here: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w12312/w123...

        > Overall, the basic pattern accords reasonably well with common perceptions of corruption across countries. The worst parking violators – the ten worst are Kuwait, Egypt, Chad, Sudan, Bulgaria, Mozambique, Albania, Angola, Senegal, and Pakistan – all rank poorly in cross-country corruption rankings. While many of the countries with zero violations accord well with intuition (e.g., the Scandinavian countries, Canada), there are a number of surprises. Some of these are countries with very small missions (e.g., Burkina Faso and the Central African Republic), and a few others have high rates of parking violations but do pay the fines (these are Bahrain, Malaysia, Oman, and Turkey; we return to this issue below).

        I've read far too many stories of people who don't clean up after themselves at a store or restaurant, justified by "no need - they pay someone to do this" or even "it's a good thing I do this otherwise you wouldn't have a job" to know it's simply intellectual ability.

        • By philipallstar 2025-11-1812:071 reply

          > I strongly doubt it is related to intellectual ability but cultural expectations.

          The IQ of a crowd isn't the same as the IQ of the people in it, but it is related.

          • By tptacek 2025-11-1817:291 reply

            What do you mean by this?

            • By ninetyninenine 2025-11-1818:161 reply

              The IQ of an individual in a crowd is materially different than the average IQ of the entire crowd.

              • By eesmith 2025-11-1916:461 reply

                How is the average IQ of an entire crowd relevant to parking violations of UN diplomats with diplomatic immunity?

        • By gxnxcxcx 2025-11-1811:171 reply

          > I've read far too many stories of people who don't clean up after themselves at a store or restaurant, justified by "no need - they pay someone to do this" or even "it's a good thing I do this otherwise you wouldn't have a job" to know it's simply intellectual ability.

          That they can barely articulate a verbalized post-hoc rationalization* for that kind of behavior doesn't prevent them from lacking the minimum processing power needed to achieve awareness of how they are leaving ungreased the machinery of the commons. Into which they will keep being embedded, pulling levers left and right all day long.

          Even a moderately zero-sum minded sociopath can be aware of the perks of investing a modicum of well-placed niceness; if for no other reason, just to avoid losing social capital.

          * And probably a memetic one, hardly an original thought.

          • By eesmith 2025-11-1811:382 reply

            Here's an account at https://notalwaysright.com/the-dunkin-duchess/396274/ :

            > Our college study group meets a few times a week. They’re long sessions, three or four hours each. Whenever someone runs out for food, we all chip in a little extra so the runner doesn’t have to pay. Simple deal: “If you fly, I’ll buy.”

            > About an hour into one session, one of the girls stretches and says she’s heading to Dunkin’ Donuts.

            > Me: “Ooh, I’ll buy if you fly.”

            > She stops mid-step and gives me this horrified look.

            > Girl: “I don’t bring food to other people. Servants do that.”

            The articulate reason for not bringing a cart is because their station in life is above menial work.

            Regarding social capital, the story goes on and finishes with:

            > The room goes dead silent.

            > We’ve been doing this for weeks, with everyone taking turns, no big deal. But apparently, today, we’ve got royalty in our study group. She wondered why she was left out of any group meals after that…

            Now imagine someone with money, who never had to clean up after others (and hires people to clean after themselves), and has little interaction with the working class. Why do you think they'll care about what the plebes think?

            • By JohnBooty 2025-11-1819:441 reply

              Wow. Can you give some more geographical context on where this happened and where the girl is from? (Obviously, not revealing personal details)

              I have known some rich snobs in my life, but I have never been someplace where a even the rich snobs would say something like that out loud (even if maybe they were thinking it)

              • By eesmith 2025-11-1916:10

                The link says it took place in the US.

            • By gxnxcxcx 2025-11-1812:191 reply

              There's a minority of people wealthy enough to grease everything with money or really powerful connections. In a conversation involving people doing their own shopping and eating at places where you are presumed to take your tray to the bin I wasn't even thinking about them.

              Those who lack that surplus wealth are "leaving money on the table", so to speak, by not caring about others. That's dumb.

              And her pedigree or whatever gave her those aristocratic ways didn't save her from mild ostracism at the end of the story, so... That's social capital she left on the table. That's also kinda dumb even if she had enough money/power to enable god mode. It's even dumber if she didn't have it.

              • By eesmith 2025-11-1813:201 reply

                One of today's entries from that site is "Wario Kart", at https://notalwaysright.com/wario-kart/398386/

                A customer returns two abandoned carts. Another customer assumes the first is an employee. After learning the truth, “Stupid woke b****! Why are you trying to confuse people!”

                There's all sorts of stories on that site from people who make a mess. Some think it's actually a good thing to do, like https://notalwaysright.com/food-trash-for-thought/344130/ :

                > One of the friends of a friend suddenly empties the car’s ashtray and garbage onto the parking lot floor.

                > Me: “Hey! Pick that back up!”

                > Guy: “Nah, they pay people to do that; I’m doing them a favor.”

                In that story there is a mild bit of rebuke, but it's clear that's not the first time that guy did that.

                Sometimes it's power tripping, like https://notalwaysright.com/if-you-act-like-trash-you-become-...

                > Like most fast food places, there are several trash cans conveniently placed with counters attached, so people can clean up their own messes.

                > There are always those special folks, though, who leave their trash on the table for the employees to clean up. Usually, it’s just trash, but there is this group of four young guys who always aim to outdo themselves.

                It took exceptional circumstances for them to face consequences, in this case, losing a pair of expensive sunglasses. Again, it clearly wasn't the first time.

                Or some just think that's the way things are, and pass on that belief to the next generation, like https://notalwaysright.com/mopportunity-knocks/398025/ "

                > A mum and her young child are coming through my lane when the child spills a lot of juice all over the floor and part of my register. The mum, without hesitation, says to the child:

                > Customer: “Don’t worry. It’s their job to tidy up.”

                Again, there is rebuke

                > My shoulders sink as I’m about to accept my fate, when my manager, who happened to be nearby, runs over with a wet mop (we keep one by the registers at all times just in case) and hands it to the mum.

                > Manager: “Nope. Your monkey, your circus.”

                > Customer: A bit discombobulated. “That… that’s not how it works!”

                But the reason these stories make that web site is because rebuke is rare, and thus noteworthy, while showing that a lot of people - not just those who are wealthy or have really powerful connections - do this.

                • By gxnxcxcx 2025-11-1814:291 reply

                  I fully acknowledge their existence. I'm sure I most certainly engage into equivalent antisocial behavior in some way or another wherever I most lack awareness, and my sole point is that, for most of us, when we are doing that, we dumb.

                  Slightly veering OT:

                  While I get the sore need for a place to vent after being subjected to a customer-facing workday, the website you keep linking to gives me in aggregate the rage farming vibes that are as prone to distort everyday reality as blind naïveté could be.

                  • By eesmith 2025-11-1821:36

                    I don't really think you understand my point. It isn't simple antisocial behavior. It's a multi-generational learned belief in a hierarchical class structure which will persist so long as enough people reject equality and solidarity, and instead actively protect their class privilege. (In modern parlance, "anti-woke" is roughly the opposite of "check your privilege").

                    To give but one of many examples, when rail passengers called Black porters "George", as if the porters were owned by George Pullman, those passengers reinforced racist Jim Crow laws. There were not dumb or sociopaths, but rather gained more social capital from others of their class (or more powerful) than was lost to the Black porters.

                    I have duly noted your bothsiderism position. My point, however, was to give counter-examples, such as verbalized explanations which were not post hoc, to show why I disagreed with your characterizations.

      • By lm28469 2025-11-187:332 reply

        A lot of it has to be education too, for exemple in some cultures the outside, ie outside your own place, is seen as more or less a giant trash, so people see no problem dumping their shit even right in front of their own building. In my culture the outside is seen as a common shared place and definitely not a trash, I remember my grandpa telling me not to spit on the ground or to pick up my candy wrappers when I was maybe 4 or 5 years old.

        For me it was an objective truth until I moved to a more culturally diverse city, these people are no dumber than I but they simply do not understand my pov

        • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:143 reply

          To me that blows my mind, not because of viewing the outside as trash, but being content with living in trash. To me the observation, that the outside is a giant trash, would give me a desire to order it.

          • By u_sama 2025-11-189:501 reply

            I have heard this opinion echoed by Indians, the combination of both the outside not being their problem, and thinking someone else (lower caste) will take care of it.

            • By devsda 2025-11-1818:19

              There are city workers and occasionally homeless people who pickup trash (to salvage or sell). I'm not sure how this opinion of theirs is formed but I can assure you nobody is throwing around trash with anything remotely caste related in their mind. It isn't even in consideration.

              Its plain old apathy and no sense of responsibility or shared ownership. Outside is just something you share with other 1.4 billion people of the country.

              The cycle usually goes like one idiot starts throwing trash, other idiots start adding their trash too, few weeks/months govt workers do a bare minimum job of clean-up, repeat.

          • By cainxinth 2025-11-1813:36

            Most stimuli result in habituation over time. Live with trash long enough and you’ll stop noticing it so much.

          • By Xelbair 2025-11-189:522 reply

            what if your efforts are futile due to sheer amount of other people producing trash?

            it is not so simple of a problem with clear cut solution.

            • By lm28469 2025-11-189:561 reply

              I'm talking about people spitting in front of the elevator doors, people opening their mail in the common building area and immediately throwing the envelope on the floor, people finishing their drink in front of the building and discarding the bottle by the side of the entrance door

              We don't need alien tech to solve these, it's 100% an education issue.

              • By panxyh 2025-11-1823:151 reply

                They should be educated, sure, but this can't be an education issue. Rather an issue of crappy upbringing and low intellect or, when it's a cultural thing, crappy culture.

                • By 1718627440 2025-11-1913:59

                  This depends if you only understand learning in school to be education, or if you mean the whole education that a pupil underwent, which I think was the case here. To me upbringing is another word for education.

            • By 1718627440 2025-11-1810:21

              Then I would use the legal and executive system, to deal with this people. That's why they exist after all.

        • By JohnBooty 2025-11-1819:41

          That makes sense, but sometimes it's even more confusing than that!

          When I lived in Philadelphia here in the USA, it would vary street by street and block by block even when there were no ethnic or economic divides.

          One block would have litter all over the place and the next one would be clean. To this day, I am still puzzled by that.

          There are some very mundane possible explanations, probably due to a combination of pedestrian traffic patterns and wind. (My observation is that some % of litter, probably a large % IMO, is simply trash that blew out of trashcans as opposed to being intentionally discarded)

          Still, I found it baffling and surprising

      • By estimator7292 2025-11-1819:031 reply

        I tend to reduce this even further: you as a person are either fundamentally capable of considering (and caring about) how your actions affect others, or you aren't.

        You can draw a pretty clear line across about half of america with this standard. It's depressing.

        • By worthless-trash 2025-11-195:14

          I reduce this even further,

          You're an animal, or your not. We shouldn't give animals human rights.

      • By carlmr 2025-11-1923:54

        >like an animal with no higher order thinking.

        In Germany I see far fewer abandoned shopping carts than in America.

    • By GenerocUsername 2025-11-1718:493 reply

      I live by this. It is one of the least controversial 4chan takes.

      There is nothing wrong with citing 4chans shopping cart theory.

      It is truly a marker of good vs bad people as far as it comes to participating in a high trust society.

      • By JohnBooty 2025-11-1723:134 reply

            It is truly a marker of good vs bad people as 
            far as it comes to participating in a high trust 
            society.
        
        Here's an even better test, if you ask me.

        Do you ever grab one of those "stranded" shopping carts on the way in to the store?

        A lot of societal issues can't be cured merely by doing the right thing ourselves. Littering can't be solved merely by not littering - somebody has to pick up litter. (A lot of litter is the result of wind blowing over trashcans and such, so even in a society where nobody intentionally litters, there will be litter)

        Murder can't be solved merely by not murdering people - if you witness a murder, you need to do something about it, not just think "well, at least I don't murder people" and continue with your day.

        Shopping cart logistics are obviously many orders of magnitude less serious than murder, but I think it's a similar class of problem/solution.

        • By bombcar 2025-11-182:171 reply

          I try to grab an outside shopping cart to leave the world slightly less chaotic than when I entered; which is all we can do in life, perhaps.

          But now and then I find one of the electric ride-a-carts and that’s the reward for all my work; riding the scootypuff jr in to the glorious chords of … the Walmart theme song.

          • By maest 2025-11-184:207 reply

            > I try to grab an outside shopping cart to leave the world slightly less chaotic than when I entered; which is all we can do in life, perhaps

            I lived in several European countries for many years. I then moved to the US a few years ago.

            The US strikes me as a less civilised country, in the sense that people, on average don't return the shopping cart. In the first year after I moved, I kept returning the shopping cart, but, after seeing many others not do it, I stopped. I stopped even though I agree it is the right thing to do because I felt like a fool every time I did it. Other people decided their time is too important to return the cart, so why should I be the sucker who does it?

            This isn't the only example of uncivilised behaviour I've noticed in the US. Here are other examples: bypassing a long queue of cars only to merge into the lane at the last possible second, skipping red lights if no cars are around, stopping in the middle of the sidewalk and forcing other to walk around me, not saying "you're welcome", not giving up my seat on public transportation to e.g. old people, littering.

            Every time I see someone break these markers of civilised society, makes me less likely to abide by them next time.

            • By throwaway173738 2025-11-184:365 reply

              > bypassing a long queue of cars only to merge into the lane at the last possible second,

              If everyone did this the jams would flow faster, according to WSDOT.

              • By c22 2025-11-1817:43

                This is true, but with a few caveats:

                * The time spent adjacent to the traffic lane should be used calibrating your speed with the speed of traffic, once you're at the front you should then be able to merge into an open spot without causing any change to the speed of the cars behind you. So many times I see people zip quickly to the front then merge in and slam on their brakes, causing an extra delay to ripple back through traffic. Some people do this at the beginning of the merge lane which is even worse.

                * Once you get there you should endeavor to zipper merge so multiple cars aren't trying to squeeze into one spot. As a corollary, if you're already in the lane that's being merged into you should leave an open space big enough for one vehicle to enter at this point, or better yet consider leaving the lane entirely.

                * And by that I mean leave the lane to move deeper into the highway, don't exit into the merging lane just to zip ahead and cut back in, this decidedly does not improve traffic flows.

              • By maest 2025-11-185:50

                From what I can see, it's not about higher throughput (which stays the same)

                It's about reducing queue length (you use 2 lanes instead of one, so the queue length is halved) and smaller speed differences between cars on adjacent lanes.

                I can't find a good WSDOT source, but here's Minesotta: https://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/workzone/doc/When-lat...

                Anyway, I'm not talking about cases where one lane is closed (which is what WSDOT and the Minesotta doc talk about). I'm talking about cases where there is a one lane offroad from the highway, with a queue of cars waiting to take it. Plenty of people will skip the entire queue and try to merge right at the end, blocking half of their own lane while waiting for a gap in the queue.

              • By verall 2025-11-1821:47

                If there is a right turn only lane, and a straight lane, and the right turn only lane is backed up with people queuing, you are not making traffic go faster by merging in at the last second. You are slowing down a bunch of people trying to turn, and blocking the people trying to go straight.

                You can change straight/right/left here and it all holds. Zipper merges are for merges, when 2 lanes of traffic become one, and everyone merging early is a little bit worse. Above is just selfish.

              • By watwut 2025-11-186:56

                You should not do jams with opposite direction lanes. I assume op talked about that.

              • By juanani 2025-11-185:55

                [dead]

            • By tqi 2025-11-187:22

              > so why should I be the sucker who does it?

              Because it's the right thing to do.

            • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:19

              Yeah, as someone living in Germany, returning shopping carts sounds like a non-issue. The only case where people don't return shopping carts are homeless people, who use it to store there personal belongings. So it's deliberate and they do not litter the world with shopping carts, but actively use them.

            • By sokka_h2otribe 2025-11-1814:36

              So, I see 2-5 carts in the lot, and a few hundred people in the store.

              You maybe are making yourself part of the 1% who don't return their cart (or my locale is better than average at returning it)

            • By triceratops 2025-11-191:47

              > I stopped even though I agree it is the right thing to do because I felt like a fool every time I did it... why should I be the sucker who does it?

              You really are a fool. Who willingly gives up the chance to get some free exercise and feel morally superior? I'm over here happily returning others' shopping carts, not just my own, and basking in the knowledge of how I'm a better human being than you maest.

            • By JohnBooty 2025-11-1819:23

                  people, on average don't return the shopping cart
              
              Perhaps I'm reading this too literally, but "on average?" This is a very flawed society, but I don't think I've ever seen the rando stranded carts equalling or outnumbering the returned ones.

              I'm nearly 50 and have been to many, many parking lots including some truly forsaken ones. The parking lot at the Walmart near me is a travesty. People dump trash on the ground there, and I don't mean simple littering. It's so gross. It makes you feel like society is crumbling and that civilization was perhaps a mistake in the first place.

              And yet...

              I just returned from a quick trip there several minutes ago. I naturally thought of this thread (because I'm insane) while traversing the parking lot. I counted four unreturned carts, and several dozen properly corralled carts. The ratio was at least 10:1, possibly more.

              This isn't "my" Walmart, but here's one near me that's notorious for being a bit of a Mad Max situation. If you switch to satellite view, you can see that even here the coralled carts seem to greatly outnumber the stranded ones.

              https://maps.app.goo.gl/uWE4wfydda7KtT2W8

                  bypassing a long queue of cars only to merge into the lane 
                  at the last possible second
              
              While again not doubting that US is worse than many other countries, I wonder if some amount of this is due to our uh, organically sprawling road system. Because I have definitely been one of the people doing this at times, but it was always due to quite honestly misunderstanding what lane I needed to be in.

              Anecdotally I've heard that our drivers are nowhere near the worst, but I don't have firsthand experience.

            • By fy20 2025-11-185:201 reply

              Does it have anything to do with US parking lots being huge? I usually ship at Lidl, so the parking lot can hold maybe 50 cars. It takes 1 minute to return the cart, and there's usually a car parked next to me, so there isn't actually space to leave it (unless I'm an asshole and leave it in front of another car).

              • By JohnBooty 2025-11-1819:571 reply

                When there are large parking lots, there are multiple cart return areas scattered throughout the lot. Otherwise things would be really inefficient, to an even more nightmarish (and money-costing) degree.

                Not sure if you're from the US, but the problem is objectively not as bad here as people say. If you look at various Walmarts (usually these are reliably some of the worst parking lots in any given area) in Google Maps (switch to satellite view) the reality is that the vast majority of people here actually do return their carts properly.

                https://maps.app.goo.gl/uWE4wfydda7KtT2W8

                https://maps.app.goo.gl/rCBrJKebU33rMq8J6

                https://maps.app.goo.gl/5o4GksqTGahBkU816

                The last one is by far the worst one I found.

                • By shiroiuma 2025-11-192:47

                  America is very big and diverse, and local culture varies wildly. You can go to a Whole Foods store in one part of a city and almost everyone returns their carts there, and then you can go to a Walmart in another part of the city and it looks like something out of a zombie movie, with carts and trash littering the parking lot.

        • By slavik81 2025-11-1811:49

          > Do you ever grab one of those "stranded" shopping carts on the way in to the store?

          Of course. They're typically more convenient than the carts that have been properly returned.

        • By toomanyrichies 2025-11-1814:32

          They taught this to us in the Scouts- "always leave your campsite cleaner than you found it".

        • By Izkata 2025-11-1817:43

          >Do you ever grab one of those "stranded" shopping carts on the way in to the store?

          Nope.

          ..but that's because I have my own cart I bring to the store.

      • By johnnyanmac 2025-11-1721:112 reply

        It's derived from the "how do you treat the waiter" test in first dates, so it's not like this came from nowhere. Your small actions where "it doesn't matter" can have surprising revelations on your overall disposition in life. e.g., if you're reaction to being asked about a shopping cart is violence, that says a lot about how you treat many confrontations in your life.

        • By JohnBooty 2025-11-1722:412 reply

          I think they test distinct things.

          Being nice to a waiter doesn't require additional work. Also, being a jerk to the waiter hurts another human being directly and is a strategic error because it is more likely to cause them to spit in your food than it is to get you better service.

          In contrast, leaving your shopping cart saves you work and doesn't really hurt anybody directly. It just makes a supermarket run slightly less efficiently.

          This could theoretically raise prices by increasing labor requirements, but it's not a linear relationship. Failing to return a cart would only increase prices if enough people do it to cross the threshold at which they would need to have an additional cart-collecting employee.

          It's still an anti-social behavior, but the impact is more nebulous.

          • By worthless-trash 2025-11-183:341 reply

            > leaving your shopping cart saves you work and doesn't really hurt anybody directly.

            Found a cart leaver. :)

          • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:251 reply

            > it is more likely to cause them to spit in your food than it is to get you better service.

            I would count on the waiter not being a jerk, and trying to hurt people just because they are a jerk.

            > In contrast, leaving your shopping cart saves you work and doesn't really hurt anybody directly. It just makes a supermarket run slightly less efficiently.

            What? It is hardly any extra work, you also have walked the same way when taking the cart. And it annoys people after you, including yourself, when you come in the next day and find a shopping cart standing on your parking lot.

            > Being nice to a waiter doesn't require additional work.

            Maintaining a social interaction is intellectual more work, than pushing a cart around. This very much depends on your personal preference, to some people social interactions are a lot of work.

            > Failing to return a cart would only increase prices if enough people do it to cross the threshold at which they would need to have an additional cart-collecting employee.

            So you rely on all the other people not taking liberties, you should be allowed to do? What do you think you are?

            • By shiroiuma 2025-11-192:54

              >What? It is hardly any extra work, you also have walked the same way when taking the cart.

              It depends on the store. If it's a very large parking lot, and you're parked at the far end of it, it can be a long walk to get back to your car. If the store didn't bother putting any designated cart-return locations in the lot (which happens a lot), then returning the cart means doubling your walking time. So it really is a lot of extra work, or at least time, so it is understandable why some people would avoid this extra work/time and take the easy way out.

              >And it annoys people after you

              Yes, but you don't ever see these people; they come after you've left. It's not like being rude to the waiter's face.

        • By potato3732842 2025-11-1813:29

          This whole category of decision making basically consists of taking observable things and then using them to infer other things despite the correlations often only being barely better than a coin toss. It's the same logic by which the police harass you more if you check more bad demographic checkboxes.

          You can make an argument that it's different because the stuff being measured is at the other end of the "how easily can they change it" spectrum but that doesn't change the fundamental accuracy of the correlation. Something like this shouldn't be used for anything serious.

      • By hackthemack 2025-11-1719:0218 reply

        I worked at a grocery store for a while in my teens and early twenties. It is really a surprise to me that this has become an internet topic and even more surprising how strongly people feel like it is a litmus test for good vs bad. I just do not think it is a good litmus test. People are busy, some people have kids. Who is really being inconvenienced?

        One thing I want to point out is that everyone I worked with at a grocery store loved going out and getting the carts. The employees saw it as a mini-break from the drudgery of the day.

        From having to go get carts many times, I will say, that if someone leaves their cart in a parking spot... well that is bad behavior. But if they just push it into the grass, or out of the way, who cares if it is tucked away there, or tucked away at cart corral. Someone has to go out and get the carts anyway, and it broke up the day, got you outside.

        • By tavavex 2025-11-1719:261 reply

          > People are busy, some people have kids

          Unless you're "having kids" in the sense that you're about to give birth to one, saving 30-60 seconds isn't going to make a difference in your day. It's like trying to optimize your travel timing so you can stop at fewer red lights. Maybe it gives someone the illusion of efficiency, but no one is really saving any time.

          Most people who leave carts don't mind them blocking others' paths. If you're going out of your way to push one over the curb and into the muddy grass, you might as well have parked it in the designated spot by now.

          Where I am, large enough stores have dedicated "outside" employees, most of whose time is be spent pushing carts. For them it's not a fun change of pace, it's just their job. If everyone put their carts back in an orderly fashion, they would need to do less weaving in parking lot traffic and trudging through horrible weather than they otherwise have to. Sure, "it's their job", but I don't want to make it even harder, especially considering how much they tend to be paid.

          • By redwall_hp 2025-11-1720:341 reply

            Remember to put lots of dumb stuff in PRs, because it's "someone's job" to peer review your code. ;)

            Funny how peoples' attitude toward retail employees probably wouldn't extend to more work being created for them in their work.

            • By potato3732842 2025-11-1813:40

              There's a pretty fundamental difference between additional low priority but necessary busy work for a salaried employee and one of the better tasks you get to do as a min-wage retail employee.

        • By redwall_hp 2025-11-1719:10

          Back when I worked in retail, my car was dented multiple times from people not putting carts in the designated areas.

          Sometimes you can't park without getting out of the car to clean up after other people, because carts are littering the parking spaces. (Including being pushed from adjacent spots into handicap spaces.)

          I've parked near corrals and had people half-ass push them next to it, effectively double parking me until I removed several carts.

          I've had to jump out of the way of carts being whipped down an aisle by a strong wind in a storm.

          Nobody's talking about bringing carts back to the building, but doing the bare minimum of putting them in the corrals. Failing to do so is saying you value your minor convenience over other peoples' time, property and health. Tucking them on a curb is saying you know you're doing a bad thing but don't really care.

        • By silisili 2025-11-1719:133 reply

          Same re: grocery work and liking getting carts as a teen.

          That said

          > But if they just push it into the grass, or out of the way,

          One marker of whether something is acceptable in society(or having a functioning brain, at times) is to ask oneself "what would happen if everyone did what I'm doing." This applies to most things...littering, talking on speakerphone or blasting music in public, etc. I think this example would similarly fail this test, imagining hundreds of carts piled up somewhere 'out of the way.'

          • By cogman10 2025-11-1719:212 reply

            If everyone did it then you'd probably have a dedicated person to fetch the carts doing that basically throughout their shift. The store still needs the carts for more shoppers and with everyone putting them in the grass that process ends up taking longer.

            Except for particularly busy times, I don't think you'd see major pile ups.

            But I generally agree with what you are saying. It's a valuable question to ask "what if everyone did this".

            • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:33

              Yeah and if everyone was littering all the time, the city might employ more dustmen. Or they would say screw it, why waste money and time, when the citizens obviously don't want to live in a clean city.

            • By worthless-trash 2025-11-195:20

              Maybe everyone should just start murdering people that bothered them ;P. That way we'd have less annoying people and more police.

          • By amanaplanacanal 2025-11-1813:22

            Then it just becomes an informal cart corral.

          • By dzhiurgis 2025-11-1720:556 reply

            Ah yes. It's pouring rain, blowing cold wind in your face, kids are screaming and hitting each other, you stubbed your toe into cart and generally just having bad day. What would jesus do?

            • By al_borland 2025-11-185:001 reply

              Is the standard to return the cart or not? Where do you draw the line? What if it’s only raining? How hard does it need to be raining to sacrifice your principles?

              On days with a strong wind it is more important to rerun the cart, because leaving it loose will mean it’s likely to hit someone’s car. This is when the golden rule comes into play.

              • By dzhiurgis 2025-11-189:45

                It just doesn't matter. It's a cart, not clubbing baby seals.

                Only thing that's more insufferable is the keyboard warriors loosing sleep over tiny things like that.

            • By Yokolos 2025-11-188:021 reply

              I've had bad days. I still managed not to be a net negative on my environment. Why can't you? Why can't other people? From my perspective, how you behave when you're having a bad day is the real litmus test. If you're still a decent person then, then you actually have values you care about, that you don't just follow when convenient.

              • By dzhiurgis 2025-11-189:461 reply

                Show me a person and I'll point their flaws.

                • By antonchekhov 2025-11-191:06

                  Theoretically, in this case, the agonizing "It's pouring rain, blowing cold wind in your face, kids are screaming and hitting each other, you stubbed your toe into cart and generally just having bad day" scenario making any man unable to manage the extra-harrowing effort of directing a cart a few meters into a designated space.

            • By bombcar 2025-11-182:19

              He wouldn’t be at the store; or perhaps flipping tables.

              He got two fishes and five loaves delivered in a clear door dash advertisement.

            • By schmookeeg 2025-11-184:47

              I feel like the recent and strange habit of people telling me, unprompted, all about their assorted minor medical maladies, syndromes, and treatments -- is a form of "I don't always do the right thing because of these tribulations that I suffer"

              Like it's pre-loading being an asshole. I hate it. Have your bad day in a way that doesn't continue the dominoes falling and causing other bad days, however much misery loves company.

            • By Mawr 2025-11-186:04

              Did you think we'd find this string of excuses basically lifted from the article convincing?

            • By c22 2025-11-1820:11

              He'd tip the cart over so it doesn't blow around in the wind.

        • By al_borland 2025-11-184:521 reply

          I worked at a grocery store as well and we didn’t even have a place to return carts. Even after I got moved up to doing stock, I told the manager I’d be happy to go get carts, especially in the winter when no one else wanted to do it. I thought it was fun to go out there and slide around on them.

          We had some woods and a little stream next to the parking lot. Some people would chuck the carts into the woods. That’s probably considered bad behavior, but for me, that was just more time I could spend outside and a little adventure to fetch the cart and get it back up the hill through the trees.

          I could see working at a big store where you’re expected to bring in 50 carts at a time to be annoying. I was at a smaller places and would only bring in 5 or 6 at a time. Some of the managers would get annoyed at that, but I was getting minimum wage and was the only person who didn’t complain about the cold and snow, so they could just deal with my pace. I wanted to make sure I could control what I was pushing, so I didn’t hurt anyone or break anything. We don’t even have a rope, like I see most places have now.

          • By JohnBooty 2025-11-1820:05

            I talked to a guy who used to run a grocery store. There were low-income housing apartment buildings nearby. People would walk to the store, buy groceries, and then just roll the damn carts back to their buildings down the street.

            Sounds terrible but the owner didn't mind, or at least didn't discourage it. Those people didn't have cars and if they had to carry groceries home by hand they'd just buy less groceries or perhaps not shop there at all. He would just drive a pickup truck to the apartment building at the end of the day to collect carts.

            When he began the story I thought it was about to be a racist story about "low-income" people (bit of a barely-disguised dog whistle there) but it wound up being pretty cool. An ad-hoc system that worked to everybody's benefit.

        • By frank_nitti 2025-11-1719:161 reply

          As a fellow former grocery store employee, I can agree about the “break up the monotony” concept from the narrow POV of the bored worker.

          It is an inconvenience though, even if as insignificant as an eyesore for others, or the landscaper who may need to remove shopping carts from the planter to do their work.

          You could apply similar logic to people who carelessly throw trash in the recycling bin or on a sidewalk where it’s someone else’s job to clean up after them. I’ve seen people go as far as to say they are graciously “providing a job” for someone else when they throw their refuse in the recycling bin.

          The fact that the shopping carts are such an inconsequential thing to shrug off is what makes them a great litmus test — will you do the right thing simply because it’s the right thing to do, even when there is so little at stake

          • By iamnothere 2025-11-1719:272 reply

            > I’ve seen people go as far as to say they are graciously “providing a job” for someone else when they throw their refuse in the recycling bin.

            The great thing about the “job creation” theory of antisocial behavior is that it justifies all kinds of things, from graffiti to dumping to stealing decorative plants from the local park. Why bother following implicit (or even explicit) rules if there is no consequence? Surely it won’t have any consequences in the long run!

            • By jamincan 2025-11-1813:50

              I avoid the automated checkouts in part because it takes jobs away from robots. Am I a bad person for creating jobs for humans?

              I confess I am a hypocrite though, as I'm one of those job-stealing people that return the cart to the corral.

            • By robocat 2025-11-186:441 reply

              Murder and incarceration create jobs too. At what point does job creation change from an excuse to an obligation?

              • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:37

                Making war, creates an awful lot of jobs in the construction industry!

        • By GenerocUsername 2025-11-1719:242 reply

          I am busy. I am a principal engineer on call working 60 hour weeks with an active social life and 2 kids under 4yo...

          I always return my cart.

          The theory holds and you are making excuses for bad behaviors

          • By bombcar 2025-11-182:20

            Anyone saying they’re too busy to return the cart but not busy enough to use grocery pickup or delivery must have a very calibrated life.

          • By antilimit 2025-11-1720:09

            I second this and relate heavily

        • By cogman10 2025-11-1719:162 reply

          > People are busy, some people have kids.

          It takes 30 seconds to return a cart. Nobody is so busy or has so many kids as to not be able to wheel the cart into the cart stall. If you have that many kids, then you probably can't really safely grocery shop in the first place.

          The reason it gets brought up is exactly because it's a small thing to do that is generally accepted as being the right thing to do. You basically won't find someone defending not wheeling back the cart as being the right thing to do (outside of maybe a true emergency).

          • By red-iron-pine 2025-11-1720:56

            kid seats with straps are a thing for a reason, put the rugrat into the seat and then take the cart back.

            as the parent said, it's a 30 second walk and if you can't trust kiddo not to die for 30 seconds you shouldn't be shopping w/ them in the first place.

          • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:35

            If you have kids, you let them return the cart, because it is fun for them and already start to move the car out of the parking lot. That way you save even more time.

        • By johnnyanmac 2025-11-1721:15

          >Who is really being inconvenienced?

          The workers, drivers, and potentially future shoppers.

          >I worked with at a grocery store loved going out and getting the carts.

          You're getting the carts either way. I won't speak to if it helps to give you more time to yourself when collecting wayward carts, but there is some built in time for collections even with "good shoppers".

          > if someone leaves their cart in a parking spot... well that is bad behavior

          Yes, hence the shopping cart theory.

          I'm not a perfect person but try to keep it out of parking those times I am tired. But I recognize that carts can still roll into the lot or that it increases risks of a future car who comes in.

        • By idiotsecant 2025-11-1719:501 reply

          This isn't exclusively about whether it inconveniences employees or not. I was also a grocery store worker and I would also enjoy cart getting in certain weather but I wouldn't want to do it at, for example, walmart. That's practically a contact sport.

          No, this is simply about can people do small things to make the system better. Things that cost them essentially nothing but make the world work.

          • By binary132 2025-11-182:582 reply

            I hold a strong but unproven belief that a minority of people who are naturally more conscientious than ordinary are basically holding the world together at the seams.

            • By c22 2025-11-198:31

              I have the inverted belief that most people are actually doing all right most of the time, but it's the squeaky wheels that stand out from the crowd and draw my attention all day long. There's just too many man-hours elapsed per day for a true minority to keep it stumbling along as gracefully as it does. We all have our bad days.

              I've spent a lot of time cleaning up and observing a small strip of sidewalk in front of a retail establishment in a city and I've come to believe in a variation of the broken windows theory. If I let the sidewalk become too messy, or if I remove the trash but not the dead leaves in the fall then more trash will appear at a seemingly exponential rate. If I do a thorough job cleaning the entire area and removing all debris, however, it stays tidy for many hours, sometimes even days. I don't believe for one second that keeping the area tidy prevents people from littering there. I think the people who would drop their candy wrapper are going to do it anyway, but I think there are many people who, while walking through my tidy section of sidewalk, bend over and pick up the candy wrapper when they see it. I just think they don't bother when there's two or three candy wrappers, thus causing the observed effect.

            • By toast0 2025-11-184:361 reply

              Somebody's got to, and I've got a little extra time, so I guess I will.

              Burns off the karma from being a trouble maker on IRC (sorry Undernet). Although doing things to burn karma just generates karma for doing good things for the wrong reasons.

              • By binary132 2025-11-1812:28

                Only those who return the cart for upright and pure reasons (disorder makes my skin crawl) will escape samsara

        • By arwhatever 2025-11-1719:071 reply

          Grass might hold the cart in place, but most abandoned carts get dropped off in places where the wind can catch them and blow them into cars.

          • By hackthemack 2025-11-1719:131 reply

            Fair point.

            I did not usually see a free roaming cart though. Maybe times have changed. Usually, people would prop them up against a curb, or ditch them into a grassy spot, or they would put them by a low spot in the parking lot next to a drain, or put them next to a column on the sidewalk.

            Just my anecdotal experience, it seemed like people would put their cart back if there was a cart corral in the center of every parking row.

            • By bombcar 2025-11-182:22

              Walmarts around me seem to have a corral every ten or so cars, hordes of them. I still encounter strays and that’s with them seeming having a dedicated cart cowboy (with his little train).

              I once calculated the number of carts Walmart has worldwide and it was mind-boggling.

        • By kjkjadksj 2025-11-186:071 reply

          Are kids really the excuse? I was putting away the cart basically as early as I remember. It was extremely fun to do that as a kid. Ride the cart like a kick scooter then BANG slam it into the rack with the others.

          I’ve noticed very few kids doing little chores like this these days. Maybe I just don’t notice it. Maybe it’s a sign of a wider rot regarding parenting. Maybe it’s nothing.

          • By c22 2025-11-198:36

            It's extremely sketchy to let your kid return the cart in the parking lot when the average vehicle's hood is at twice their standing height.

        • By BobbyTables2 2025-11-184:34

          Actually glad to hear that. I always wondered if it was pure entitlement and laziness to walk past a loaded corral and then take a car at the entrance.

          I also feel many feel (irrationally) that they are being ripped off by the store and thus won’t bother to return the cart out of spite.

        • By binary132 2025-11-182:54

          Imagine, if you will, a society where it had become commonplace and normal for people to throw their trash on the ground, and there were people who were expected as part of their working duties to pick up this trash and put it in a wastebin. It wouldn’t really matter whether the worker minded this duty, or whether it was commonly accepted behavior, or whether it was a bit inconvenient to dispose of the trash properly, or whether the person was a bit busy. Some people, probably those raised a certain way, would automatically intuit that there is something wrong with this and throw out their own garbage. They might even pick up one or two pieces others had left behind, too. But who is really being inconvenienced?

        • By HDThoreaun 2025-11-1721:45

          When employees are forced to spend time collecting carts prices at the store go up . Customers are the ones being inconvenienced by higher prices when people abandon their carts.

        • By triceratops 2025-11-191:52

          > One thing I want to point out is that everyone I worked with at a grocery store loved going out and getting the carts

          You must've lived someplace with good weather. I can't imagine it being fun in a snowstorm.

        • By iamnothere 2025-11-1719:07

          Speaking of memes, you just did one:

          > Who is really being inconvenienced?

          https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/smugjak-but-how-does-this-aff...

        • By Izkata 2025-11-1817:48

          > some people have kids.

          I remember my brothers and I liked doing it because we'd ride on the sides of the cart while putting it away.

    • By bradlys 2025-11-1816:34

      This depends too much. It’s standard at many stores to have someone who goes out and fetches all the carts. They have to do this anyway because of the cart corrals. This sounds like some idea by a European in some tiny parking lot without those.

      People here have mentioned it only taking 30-60 seconds, which definitely speaks to European centric stuff. A lot of the places I’ve shopped where I’m using a cart, it takes minutes to return. That’s why people aren’t doing it. You spend 1-2 minutes walking to your car. That’s why they leave the cart, it’s an extra 5 minutes round trip. But for an employee who is going to be going around the lot anyway to do this job, it’s no extra added time.

      This also ignores that people like me will sometimes pickup a cart like this on the way to store if it’s convenient. We also don’t leave them in parking spaces or whatever. We leave them somewhere reasonable.

    • By oliwarner 2025-11-1813:36

      For an idea about society, that is an incredibly isolated lens on the problem.

      You gain something if others put their trolleys away. You gain something [fuzzy] knowing you may have helped others. We have these mechanisms of cooperation that some people eschew, that some demand, and coin-release trolleys are the response to what happens when it breaks down.

      Coincidentally a supermarket near me has recently converted their trolley stock to coin-release. I have three children and increasingly few Pound coins so a result of this is I shop less, and far less impulsively. Good job, Tesco.

    • By ranger_danger 2025-11-1719:134 reply

      It sounds like a good test in theory but I would say it's actually more nuanced than that.

      In my experience, there are certainly reasons that returning the cart might be difficult or impossible (handicap, small children etc.).

      If you speak to employees about it, I have been told that they often actually like going outside to get the carts, so to me this is not only increased convenience for me personally, but desired by the employees also as they get a "break" from the chaos inside the store.

      • By Jordan-117 2025-11-1722:45

        I've worked retail jobs where employees were assigned lot duty on a rotating basis, and I can assure you most people didn't want to do it and staff had to be vigilant to make sure it wasn't being neglected. It's moderately hard physical labor (assuming there are no powered cart-pusher things and the lot is large and on some kind of slope), and is out in the elements where it can be frigidly cold and windy or swelteringly hot. Some employees might be misanthropic enough in context that they'd rather do it than work inside, but it's definitely not all or even a majority in my experience.

      • By mvdtnz 2025-11-180:571 reply

        > there are certainly reasons that returning the cart might be difficult or impossible (handicap, small children etc.).

        If you can get the cart around the store, across the parking lot and to your car, you can get it back to its home too. It didn't teleport to your car.

        • By Mawr 2025-11-186:08

          A loaded cart, no less.

      • By johnnyanmac 2025-11-1721:201 reply

        >I have been told that they often actually like going outside to get the carts

        They are getting the carts either way. No one is saying to return all carts to the store. There are several partking lot racks for a reason.

        • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:40

          It seems to be different in the USA, but here they wouldn't. If somebody would abandon a shopping cart, it would stay there indefinitely until somebody returns it. I mean the employee might do it after work, on there way home, but also only for the same reason any other random person would do it.

      • By stronglikedan 2025-11-1720:071 reply

        > if you speak to employees about it, I have been told that they often actually like going outside to get the carts

        This has been my experience as well, but people will always blindly insist the opposite just to "win" the shopping cart argument.

        • By HDThoreaun 2025-11-1721:47

          The employees arent there to have fun. When customers create work for the store they need to spend more on wages and prices go up. The shopping cart theory isnt about the employees, its about making the whole system a little bit worse for everyone else.

    • By noman-land 2025-11-192:421 reply

      There is a third position I've come across, which is also used to justify littering. It's the "they hire people to do this so I don't have to". Sometimes combined with "if I returned my cart/didn't litter those people wouldn't have a job".

      • By Tostino 2025-11-198:20

        I'd lump them in with the "bad" members of society group in a heartbeat.

    • By abetusk 2025-11-1719:481 reply

      Interesting theory.

      Here's my counter theory: People's moral righteousness on whether they think a person can be judged by a morally neutral and inconsequential action sheds light on their true moral character. Especially so if the judged action is insignificant but socially frowned on.

      I know this is all in half-jest but the article and discussion seem pretty mean-spirited to me.

      • By johnnyanmac 2025-11-1721:24

        >People's moral righteousness on whether they think a person can be judged by a morally neutral and inconsequential action sheds light on their true moral character.

        You call it moral righteousness. I call it emotional intelligence. You realize as you grow up that your small actions shape and reflect your larger self. And you can see it in others too.

        We call it "work ethic" in white collar jobs, and I'm sure you wouldn't defend someone who's otherwise an excellent programmer submitting sloppy reports, having inconsistent time estimates, or simply making snarky PR's. It's a shame we don't value it when it's not about maximizing shareholder value.

    • By dioxis 2025-11-1819:52

      You forgot to add: "A person who is unable to do this is no better than an animal, an absolute savage who can only be made to do what is right by threatening them with a law and the force that stands behind it."

    • By kgwxd 2025-11-1812:321 reply

      The worst offender is the kind of person that doesn't put it back specifically because they know about this theory. "Don't tread on me!"

      • By hat_monger 2025-11-1819:46

        Luckily these sorts tend to be so clownish they keep themselves out of power

    • By sharts 2025-11-1822:25

      There cited reasons for not returning carts is often job creation / security.

      Leaving carts means someone must retrieve.

    • By xtiansimon 2025-11-1813:06

      Are people who return shopping carts also predisposed* to be _good drivers_?

      * Not considering physical limitations.

    • By waitwot 2025-11-1719:03

      [dead]

  • By buggymcbugfix 2025-11-1719:0413 reply

    Is this a US phenomenon? Here in Germany, people always return their shopping carts. Yes, the carts take a coin as a deposit, which can be removed when the cart is returned, but many people have shopping cart openers (for want of a better word) on their keyrings, that circumvent the deposit, yet I haven't EVER seen anyone leaving their shopping cart. I'd go so far as to say that'd be even less socially adequate than urinating in public.

    I've been around Europe a fair bit and from Bulgaria to Portugal, people just return their carts. It's a no-brainer.

    • By ninkendo 2025-11-182:332 reply

      > Is this a US phenomenon?

      The answer to this question is always “no”. Regardless of the subject. Basically 100% of the time.

      At my local grocery store everyone returns their carts. In the other place in the US I lived 10 years ago, there were loose carts everywhere.

      The US is a very, very big country. Really more like 50 big countries. With huge variation in culture, income, background, etc. There’s barely anything you can say that applies to the whole country, regardless of the subject.

      • By binary132 2025-11-183:012 reply

        someone clever ought to do some kind of statistical analysis and figure out what hidden variables are causing these differences.

      • By gverrilla 2025-11-1811:362 reply

        It was never said that it was a phenomenon on the whole country.

        It is a US phenomenom yes. When it exists in other countries it's because of Hollywood exporting american culture.

        • By s1artibartfast 2025-11-1817:381 reply

          Is that really your position? to you ascribe all bad behavior globally to US cultural exports?

          • By gverrilla 2025-11-1819:221 reply

            not all bad behavior. why this generalizing frenzy?? lmao

            • By s1artibartfast 2025-11-1822:17

              Just seems wild to blame USA for exporting cart culture? What's the mechanism with Hollywood? I missed the marvel extended shopping cart universe.

              Where did the USA import cart culture from? Mexico?

              It seems likely to me that many countries are capable of domestically manufacturing selfish assholes.

        • By cafard 2025-11-1816:12

          I'm trying to think back to the last time I saw a shopping cart in a movie. I think it was probably Terms of Endearment, but I don't think that the cart made it outside.

    • By PLMUV9A4UP27D 2025-11-1719:122 reply

      Greetings from Finland. No deposit required for the carts, yet almost all carts are being returned (I can't remember when I last saw one not returned).

    • By whazor 2025-11-186:063 reply

      Recently in NL many supermarkets have dropped the coin completely. But people have been conditioned for years to return the cart. Though there are cart thieves.

      • By graemep 2025-11-1811:08

        In the UK some places have it, some do not. Lidl does need the coin, Waitrose does not but has a system that stops you taking them out beyond the car park (there are warnings on, other supermarkets do not.

        Almost everyone returns them in all the supermarkets in my area.

      • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:42

        Same in Germany, it started during Corona, as people should touch things as less as possible.

      • By trashface 2025-11-1819:20

        My elderly mom never shops at Aldi (in the US) because she can't figure out the coin thing. Given that she spends outrageous amounts on groceries, Aldi is losing a ton of money by paywalling the stupid cart.

    • By iamnothere 2025-11-1719:103 reply

      Aldi is the only place in the US that I know of that uses this system. It works well enough, no carts in the lot, and surprisingly people sometimes leave a quarter in the cart as a sort of “pay it forward” minor charity. (Good because not everyone keeps change these days.)

      • By tguedes 2025-11-2020:30

        The only downside of this in the US is that homeless people will tend to hang around Aldi's asking people if they can return their cart to get the coin. Most of them are friendly and thankful but every once in awhile an aggressive person would make me very uncomfortable.

        I also expect Aldi management isn't thrilled about homeless people camping outside their stores.

      • By Doxin 2025-11-188:101 reply

        I can't say for the US, but over here the coin system is ubiquitous, and if you've not got a coin you can ask at the service desk and they'll hand you a branded coin to use.

        • By testing22321 2025-11-1815:26

          Last time I asked in Canada they just gave me a regular Loonie ($1 coin)

      • By buggymcbugfix 2025-11-1719:14

        Naww, that is very sweet!

    • By tclover 2025-11-1719:501 reply

      You’re living in some different Germany. In the Germany where I’m living shopping carts are everywhere… (nrw)

      • By NekkoDroid 2025-11-1720:10

        In my part of Germany (BW) I also almost never see carts outside of roughtly where they should be. Sometimes they are just lazily pushed under the enclosure (if you want to call it that), but most of the times they are just how they should be.

    • By tclover 2025-11-1719:563 reply

      Took this picture close to the place where I’m living, people just come home with the cart and then drop it outside. This is Germany https://ibb.co/rGXfb0PY

      • By bombcar 2025-11-182:37

        This is the true chaotic neutral option and you see it anywhere that walking is common AND the carts don’t lockup their wheels at the lot line.

        However, shopping carts SuCk on anything but smooth cement.

      • By snovymgodym 2025-11-185:00

        Yeah, looks like NRW alright

      • By buggymcbugfix 2025-11-1720:16

        Whoa!

    • By buggymcbugfix 2025-11-1719:221 reply

      PS: This is not meant as snark, but rather an observation, that by means of a small nudge (in this case the coin deposit), people can learn to do the Right Thing. To quote Charlie Munger:

      > Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome.

      • By bombcar 2025-11-182:36

        I always thought it a sneaky way to pay children .25 cents a cart return.

        An enterprising 10 year old could rack a few bucks sometimes.

    • By kalx 2025-11-1719:112 reply

      People here too return them. It is a social class question.

      • By arwhatever 2025-11-1719:37

        The difference between the ratio of people returning their carts at Wal-mart vs at the Natural Foods store where I live is substantial.

      • By buggymcbugfix 2025-11-1719:23

        Here, US?

    • By trgn 2025-11-1719:062 reply

      you just explained it, they're not coin operated.

      • By dirkt 2025-11-185:071 reply

        I am old enough to have lived in Germany when they were not coin operated, and most carts were returned at that time as well.

        Though occasionally you saw a cart far far away from a supermarket, where someone had basically stolen it, either teenagers to have fun, or someone asocial who, I don't know, used to carry all the shopping home? I don't really know what they did with it.

        And it was the cost of replacing those stolen carts that drove the adaption of the coin operation system. Not that people just left them in the parking lot. Some supermarkets also tried a system where the cart locked if you moved it out of range of some radio in the supermarket, but that one really didn't take off.

        (Also, quite a few people in Germany just do shopping by walking or biking to the supermarket).

        • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:45

          > I am old enough to have lived in Germany when they were not coin operated

          And now they are again. Some new REWE carts already come without this feature.

      • By bluedino 2025-11-1719:071 reply

        At ALDI stores they are!

        • By trgn 2025-11-1719:092 reply

          do people abandon carts there?

          • By ssl-3 2025-11-185:17

            It varies.

            I was once 75 cents ahead by the time I made it inside of an Aldi in Columbus, Ohio because there were 3 free-range carts in the parking lot that I returned. Three was a lot -- most days I only found one cart hanging out in the parking lot.

            In my current neck of the woods things are a bit different. There's never any carts roaming the parking lot, and there's usually carts with quarters already in them, parked properly up by the door.

            (I often leave one parked with a quarter like that myself, but it's not because of some "pay it forward" quasi-altruistic purpose or something. Sometimes I just want to pick my groceries up out of the cart and walk to the car and I just don't have enough free hands to deal with retrieving the quarter. So I line up the cart with the others, grab my bag or two of things, and shove the cart the rest of the way home with my hip.)

          • By bluedino 2025-11-1719:172 reply

            I don't get there often enough to know. I would assume it's rare, and ALDI shopper is different than say, a Wal-mart shopper.

            • By al_borland 2025-11-185:091 reply

              I don’t go to Aldi because of the coin thing in the shopping carts. I went there once, didn’t have at change, and had to carry everything until my arms got full, then just left. I’m not going to carry change with me all the time on the off chance I decide to go to Aldi. Every other store lets me take a cart for free, and I return it because it’s the right thing to do and I want them to remain free.

              • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:491 reply

                They are still free, since it is a deposit, not a fee. Also don't you need to put in a coin, when you use a locker, in a museum or the library, or the train station? This is ubiquitous here. You don't need to use a real coin, they are also fake plastic coins for only this purpose, you can get everywhere, and also tools, which you put in to unlock, and then can immediately pull out again.

                • By al_borland 2025-11-1814:00

                  I get that it’s a deposit, but it still means I have to carry a coin, or some kind of slug. It’s one more thing to carry or think about, that other places don’t require.

                  Museums, libraries, and train stations aren’t places I go weekly, like a grocery store. When I do go, I can’t remember the last time I ever used a public locker. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve used one of those in my life. I don’t tend to carry much stuff with me, so a locker isn’t something I generally need.

            • By trgn 2025-11-1719:29

              german precision shopper

      • By buggymcbugfix 2025-11-185:29

        Of course hooligans steal shopping carts. This was about people leaving shopping carts in the parking lot :)

    • By brettgriffin 2025-11-1719:481 reply

      Why do the stores have the coin deposit if leaving the shopping cart, even if you circumvented the deposit, is morally more morally reprehensible than urinating in public?

      > Is this a US phenomenon

      Yeah, you can kind of do whatever you want here. It's sort of our thing

      • By mhb 2025-11-1721:451 reply

        > It's sort of our thing

        Also it seems to be our thing to have an unbounded number of assholes who do stuff like throw rental scooters in rivers.

        • By super256 2025-11-182:471 reply

          Don't worry. While we don't have the shopping card issue in Germany, we do have the escooter-in-river issue!

          Here its mostly teens who throw rental escooters into rivers.

          • By skylurk 2025-11-187:272 reply

            Bad for the rivers, of course, but it amazes me that the teens in Germany are actively engaged in keeping the sidewalks clean.

            • By brettgriffin 2025-11-1819:491 reply

              For the uninitiated, what's the subtext here? Is this about a trend in behavior of teens in Germany?

              Asking for the same reason I asked OP my question. I was just in Berlin and, second only to Tokyo, I've never* seen such conscientious group of people, including teens.

              * I'd actually place two other cities from that trip into the same #2 position: Zurich and Vienna.

            • By sunaookami 2025-11-1910:02

              E-Scooters are literally blocking the sidewalks in big cities like Düsseldorf. It's a plague.

    • By gcbirzan 2025-11-1719:093 reply

      If it's on their keychain, do you really think they'd leave their keychain there?

      • By buggymcbugfix 2025-11-1719:122 reply

        Haha I was wondering if this part was unclear but assumed it was obvious from context, that the cart opener can be removed from the coin slit. Imagine leaving your keyring on your cart... yikes!

        • By toast0 2025-11-184:46

          > Imagine leaving your keyring on your cart... yikes!

          While you're shopping? That's not a big deal.

          When you return the cart? How are you driving home without your keys?

          I guess Europeans might be more likely to not take a car to the grocery store, but I would prefer to use a basket over a cart while shopping in that case... I'll know when I'm done shopping when the basket hits my limit of how much to hand carry.

        • By gcbirzan 2025-11-1719:38

          The reason my wife (I have coins) uses them is that it's just easier to access. No need to go through your coins (if you have any), you just put it in.

      • By simlan 2025-11-1719:131 reply

        Good point. Think of the device as a lock pick for Aldi carts you can remove it and don't need to leave your keychain.

      • By jq-r 2025-11-1719:123 reply

        The "coin" part is usually detachable, so no need to leave the whole set of keys with the cart during shopping.

        • By gcbirzan 2025-11-1719:361 reply

          Yes, but they do cost money and effort to get. A 25-50 eurocent coin is probably equivalent.

          The only thing that's useful about those things is that it's easier to get them faster.

          • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:52

            Where I live it is always 1€ coins.

        • By ceejayoz 2025-11-1719:14

          But leaving it on is a good way to avoid forgetting to it.

        • By hananova 2025-11-182:56

          There’s ones with a “notch” in the coin part. So you unlock the cart, twist it, pull it out.

    • By ceejayoz 2025-11-1719:051 reply

      [flagged]

      • By spookthesunset 2025-11-184:071 reply

        [flagged]

        • By slater 2025-11-184:081 reply

          > Masking did absolutely nothing to stop Covid

          It did.

          • By spookthesunset 2025-11-184:152 reply

            [flagged]

            • By 1718627440 2025-11-189:511 reply

              So you think surgeries that are performed without medical masks, wouldn't have a higher infection rate?

              • By Izkata 2025-11-1822:13

                I would say not, for airborne viruses. Those masks are to keep the doctor's sweat, hair, and saliva out of the patient.

            • By slater 2025-11-184:18

              > Keep on telling yourself that

              I will!

              > data doesn’t lie

              $5 sez you have some data that just so happens to confirm your biases, and i bet there's also some data that says masking actually did help. Utterly pointless arguing this nonsense, in the end it always just turns out to be speed-runs to some tedious conspiracy theories.

  • By m463 2025-11-1719:205 reply

    People who wonder about this stuff should travel to Japan.

    It is sort of amazing and uplifting to see a whole society with a high level of good behavior.

    - People trim their bushes and trees (they frequently look like Dr. Seuss trees)

    - The sidewalks are clean, even in the most urban environments

    - I've seen women leave their purse on the table when they go to the bathroom.

    - People wait to cross the street

    - Cars are carefully parked and aligned inside the lines

    - People wait in line

    - stores are well organized

    • By iamnothere 2025-11-1719:47

      Yes, and it generally isn’t because of laws, there’s just a lot of sensible social customs (don’t walk while eating on the street because it encourages litter, etc) and others will remind you of those customs if you break them. And unlike the US, if you break those unwritten rules and then start a fight for “content” when confronted (assault is illegal), police will actually put you in jail or deport you instead of looking the other way.

      It’s not authoritarian to have a sensible set of laws that you enforce rigorously, backed by soft norms that are only enforced through social customs. Yet in the US we seem to want the inversion of this, legal enforcement of social norms with weak enforcement of hard laws. Very strange.

    • By waffletower 2025-11-1719:432 reply

      For the purposes of this specific conversation, the layout of typical Japanese supermarkets, the cost of groceries and the frequent lack of specialized parking for supermarkets, Japan is probably an irrelevant comparison. Where there are parking lots, people typically purchase only what could be carried back to their car without carts. Bicycles are used for shopping with much greater frequency than countries like the U.S. Shopping carts are typically taken and returned at the entrance of the store before the customer exits. At Uwajimaya in the United States (a Japanese asian market with stores in Oregon and Washington), remarkably, the same cultural use of shopping carts occurs.

      • By unscaled 2025-11-188:031 reply

        Most people in Japan live outside of the Yamanote circle in Tokyo. Rural and Suburban supermarkets have parking lots (although in central areas they can still be quite small) and people still use cars for shopping trips, especially in the countryside.

        It is true that grocery packages are much smaller than the US (since Japanese houses, even in the countryside, are smaller and I guess the average household size is smaller as wel). Shopping carts in regular supermarkets are smaller than abroad, and are usually built to house 1 or 2 shopping baskets you can also carry by hand.

        But hey, we still have Costco in Japan, and package sizes and shopping cart sizes are just as big as they are in the US (although the parking lot is probably considerably more crowded). And Costco is extremely popular here. It's far messier than a Japanese supermarket and I do see inconsiderate people sometimes in Costco, but the cars are still parked nicely and most people do return their shopping carts. It would be interesting to compare Costcos in Japan and the US directly though.

        • By waffletower 2025-11-1816:59

          I lived well outside of Tokyo and most supermarkets were eki-mae (near train stations) and did not have parking lots. I did go to markets by car, and the practice I mentioned, shopping carts used exclusively within the store, was practiced. There very well may be exceptions, but as I noted, the cultural practice even extends to Japanese markets in the United States.

    • By insane_dreamer 2025-11-190:16

      This has much to do with the history of Japan and its inhabitants vs the history of the US and the type of people who moved here and occupied / colonized it (don't use "settled", there was no settling, only stealing). The US was largely built on individualism, high risk-high reward, lawlessness, aggression, and a lack of social cohesiveness (don't like it somewhere? there's plenty of other places to go and be on your own). Japan on the other hand, while it had wars/violence too, that happened within a highly structured society built on a form of feudalism.

    • By sunaookami 2025-11-1910:09

      Yeah it's the small things, friend of mine was in Japan recently and first thing he noticed is that everyone wears backpacks in front of them while riding the train as to not bother others. There are also signs for that (in fact Japan has A LOT of signs for foreigners on what to do).

      It's a rare example of a working high-trust society.

    • By HDThoreaun 2025-11-1721:572 reply

      Japan also measures the waistline of everyone over 40 and fines their coworkers if they are too fat. Difficult to find a balance with the shame culture. US clearly not enough Japan too much.

      • By sunaookami 2025-11-1910:141 reply

        They don't fine workers, they fine companies and only after a certain threshold which is rarely enforced. And encouraging not being fat is not a bad thing and shouldn't be controversial, it's healthier overall.

        • By HDThoreaun 2025-11-2017:51

          It’s not being healthy that is controversial, it’s the culture of shame that Japan enforces.

      • By tidenly 2025-11-187:582 reply

        Idiotic and completely untrue statement.

        You get your waist and height measured as part of your routine health examination every year since you become a worker. Eyes, hearing, etc are also included. Its just your body's "metrics".

        Your company CAN look at these (they rarely care to), but they can't fire you for them - you especially aren't fined over it. Japan is an incredibly hard country to fire or penalize workers. They can only check them in the first place because its the company that pays for these screenings in most cases. Free EKG, blood screens, and other basic health marker checks.

        I'm so tired of people spreading orientalist crap about this country on the internet.

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