Boom, bubble, bust, boom. Why should AI be different?

2025-11-2120:30161208crazystupidtech.com

The AI revolution is three years old Nov. 30. In just 36 months AI has gone from great-new-toy, to global phenomenon, to where we are today - debating whether we are in one of the biggest technology…

The artificial intelligence revolution will be only three years old at the end of November. Think about that for a moment. In just 36 months AI has gone from great-new-toy, to global phenomenon, to where we are today – debating whether we are in one of the biggest technology bubbles or booms in modern times.

To us what’s happening is obvious. We both covered the internet bubble 25 years ago. We’ve been writing about – and in Om’s case investing in – technology since then. We can both say unequivocally that the conversations we are having now about the future of AI feel exactly like the conversations we had about the future of the internet in 1999. 

We’re not only in a bubble but one that is arguably the biggest technology mania any of us have ever witnessed. We’re even back reinventing time. Back in 1999 we talked about internet time, where every year in the new economy was like a dog year – equivalent to seven years in the old. 

Now VCs, investors and executives are talking about AI dog years – let’s just call them mouse years –  which is internet time divided by five? Or is it by 11? Or 12?   Sure, things move way faster than they did a generation ago. But by that math one year today now equals 35 years in 1995. Really? 

We’re also months, not years, from the end of the party. We may be even closer than that.  NVIDIA posted better than expected earnings on Wednesday. And it briefly looked like that would buoy all AI stocks. It didn’t. 

All but Alphabet have seen big share declines in the past month. Microsoft is down 12 percent, Amazon is down 14 percent, Meta is down 22 percent, Oracle is down 24 percent, and Corweave’s stock has been almost cut in half, down 47 percent. Investors are increasingly worried that everyone is overspending on AI.

All this means two things to us: 1)The AI revolution will indeed be one of the biggest technology shifts in history. It will spark a generation of innovations that we can’t yet even imagine. 2) It’s going to take way longer to see those changes than we think it’s going to take right now. 

Why? Because we humans are pretty good at predicting the impact of technology revolutions beyond seven to ten years. But we’re terrible at it inside that time period. We’re too prone to connect a handful of early data points, to assume that’s the permanent slope of that line and to therefore invest too much too soon. That’s what’s going on right now.

Not only does the AI bubble in 2025 feel like the internet bubble in 1999, the data suggests it may actually be larger. The latest estimates for just global AI capital expenditures plus global venture capital investments already exceed $600 billion for this year. And in September Gartner published estimates that suggested all AI-related spending worldwide in 2025 might top $1.5 trillion.  

I had ChatGPT (of course) find sources and crunch some numbers for the size of the internet bubble in 1999 and came up with about $360 billion in 2025 dollars, $185 billion in 1999 dollars.  

The spending is also happening in a fraction of the time. The internet bubble took 4.6 years to inflate before it burst. The AI bubble has inflated in two-thirds the time. If the AI bubble manages to actually last as long as the internet bubble – another 20 months – just spending on AI capital expenses by the big tech companies is projected to hit $750 billion annually by the end of 2027, 75 percent more than now. 

That means total AI spending for 2029 would be well over $1 trillion.  One of the things both of us have learned in our careers is that when numbers are so large they don’t make sense, they usually don’t make sense. 

Sure, there are important differences between the internet bubble and the AI bubble. History rhymes. It doesn’t repeat. A lot of the early money to build AI data centers and train LLMs has been coming out of the giant bank accounts of the big tech companies. The rest has been largely financed by private professional investors. 

During the internet bubble, public market investors, especially individuals, threw billions at tiny profitless companies betting they’d develop a business before the money ran out. And dozens of telecom startups borrowed hundreds of billions to string fiber optic cables across oceans and continents betting that exploding internet usage would justify that investment. 

Neither bet happened fast enough for investors and lenders. Most of the dot coms were liquidated. Most of the telecom companies declared bankruptcy and were sold for pennies on the dollar.

But does that make the AI bubble less scary than the internet bubble? Not to us. It actually might be scarier. The amounts at risk are greater, and the exposure is way more concentrated. Microsoft, Alphabet, Meta, Amazon, NVIDIA, Oracle and Apple together represent roughly a third of the value of the critical S&P 500 stock market index. More importantly, over the last six months the spending has become increasingly leveraged and nonsensical. 

None of these companies has proven yet that AI is a good enough business to justify all this spending. But the first four are now each spending $70 billion to $100 billion a year to fund data centers and other capital intensive AI expenses. Oracle is spending roughly $20 billion a year. 

If the demand curve shifts for any or all of these companies, and a few of them have to take, say a $25 billion write down on their data center investments, that’s an enormous amount of money even for these giants. 

And when you add in companies like OpenAI, AMD and CoreWeave plus the slew of other LLM and data center builders, their fortunes look incredibly intertwined. If investors get spooked about future returns from any one of those companies, the contagion could spread quickly. 

Yes, by one measure AI stocks aren’t over valued at all. Cisco’s P/E peaked at 200 during the internet bubble. NVIDIA’s P/E is about 45. The P/E of the NASDAQ-100 is about 35 now. It was 73 at the end of 1999. But looking at the S&P 500 tells a scarier story. Excluding the years around Covid-19, the last time the P/E ratio of that index was as high as it is now – about 24 – was right before the internet bubble popped in March 2000.   

Here are two other worrisome differences between then and now: 

1) The overall US economic, social and political situation is much more unstable than it was 25 years ago. Back then the US was still basking in the glow of having won the Cold War. It had the most dominant economy and stable political standing in the world. Today economic growth is slower, the national debt and government spending have never been higher, and the nation is more politically divided than it has been in two generations. 

2)The AI revolution is becoming a major national security issue. That ties valuations to the current unpredictability of US foreign policy and tariffs. China has become as formidable a competitor to the US in AI as the Soviet Union was to the US in the 1950s and 1960s. It doesn’t require much imagination to think about what might happen to the US AI market should China come up with a technical advance that had more staying power than the DeepSeek scare at the beginning of this year.

Even OpenAI’s Sam Altman, Amazon’s Jeff Bezos, JP Morgan’s Jamie Dimon, and just this week, Alphabet’s Sundar Pichai are now acknowledging they are seeing signs of business excess. Pichai said the following to the BBC on Tuesday: “Given the potential for this technology (AI), the excitement is very rational. It is also  true that when we go through these investment cycles there are moments where we overshoot …. We can look back at the internet right now. There was clearly a lot of excess investment. But none of us would question whether the internet was profound …. It fundamentally changed how we work as a society. I expect AI to be the same.” 

When will the mania end? There’s hundreds of billions of dollars of guaranteed but unspent capital in the system, which suggests it will go on well into 2026. But in times like these a secular investor sentiment change can happen in a matter of weeks, driving down stock prices, driving up the cost of capital, and making every financial model that had said “let’s invest” to one saying “not on your life.” 

A technology change with more staying power than DeepSeek would certainly do it. So would President Trump changing his mind about greasing the approval process for new AI data centers. All it would take would be an off hand remark from a Silicon Valley titan he didn’t like. 

Or what’s already happening with AI stocks could snowball. Investors have hammered those stocks because they’ve gotten jumpy about the size of their AI spending and in Oracle and Coreweave’s case, the leverage they are using to pay for it all. NVIDIA’s better than expected earnings announced Wednesday might ultimately calm things. But don’t expect any of these issues to go away. 

If you want to go further, what we’ve done is lay out the four big vulnerabilities we’re worried about with separate headings. And, of course, if you have an entirely different set of numbers that you think shows we’re nowhere near bubble territory, have suggestions about how to refine ours, or think we left something out, please share. 

To us the four big vulnerabilities are: 

Too much spending.  

Too much leverage.

Crazy deals. 

China. China. China. 

*****

Too much spending: 

We all know two things about the AI bubble right now: 1)People, companies and researchers will pay for AI. 2)They aren’t paying nearly enough to justify the hundreds of billions of dollars that has been committed to it yet.

The thinking, of course, is that that gap will quickly disappear and be replaced with enough paid usage to generate enormous profits. The questions that no one has the answer to are: When will that happen?  How much more money will it take? And which approach to making money will work the best? 

Will it work better just to charge for AI based on usage the way Microsoft, Oracle, Amazon, and OpenAI are focused on? Will it be more of an indirect revenue driver the way Meta is approaching it with its open source models? Will it have an advertising component the way Alphabet is exploring? 

Or will it be a do-everything, vertically integrated approach that works best? Amazon and Meta are exploring this. But Alphabet is the furthest ahead. It not only has its own AI software but is also using a lot of its own graphics processing chips known as Tensor Processing Units. This gives it much more control over processing costs than competitors who are – at least for the moment – entirely dependent on NVIDIA and AMD graphics processing chips. 

The only thing everyone agrees on is that the stakes are enormous: Digital technology revolutions historically have been winner-take-all-affairs whether in mainframes, minicomputers, personal computers, chips, software, search, or smartphones. That means there are likely to be only a couple of dominant AI providers five years from now. 

Maybe they’ll only be one, if one of them manages to truly get their system to reach artificial general intelligence. What it certainly means, however, is that, as in the past, there will be way more losers than winners, and there will be many big companies with giant holes in their balance sheets. 

OpenAI has become exhibit A in this spending frenzy partly because it’s the leading AI chatbot and helped ignite the AI revolution with ChaptGPT version 3 in November 2022.  

It’s also because, frankly, it’s hard to look away from the company’s financial highwire act. Its competitors have other businesses they can fall back on. OpenAI must make its bet on AI work, or it becomes one of the biggest meltdowns in the history of business. 

This is a company that hasn’t come close to making a profit or even being cash flow positive, but investors last valued it at $500 billion. That would rank it as the 21st most valuable company in the stock market, with BankAmerica. And at the end of October it made changes to its corporate structure that would allow it to have a traditional IPO in a year or two. There was speculation that that could value the company at $1 trillion. 

In the past three years OpenAI has raised more than $55 billion, according to published reports.  And while its revenues for 2025 seem to be on track to hit $12 billion, the company is burning through cash quickly.

Its cash burn this year is expected to top $8 billion and top $17 billion in 2026. It says it expects to spend nearly half a trillion dollars on server rentals over the next five years, and says it doesn’t expect to be generating more cash from operations than it is spending until 2029. That’s when it expects revenues to top $100 million. It agreed to pay nearly $7 billion for former Apple design chief Jonny Ive’s startup IO, in May. 

“Eventually we need to get to hundreds of billions of a year in revenue,” CEO Sam Altman said in response to a question about OpenAIs finances at the end of October. “I expect enterprise to be a huge revenue driver for us, but I think consumer really will be too. And it won’t just be this (ChatGPT) subscription, but we’ll have new products, devices and tons of other things. And this says nothing about what it would really mean to have AI discovering science and all of those revenue possibilities.” 

We’ve seen this movie before, of course. Whether we’re looking at the railroad construction bubble in the US 150 years ago or the internet bubble 25 years ago, investors touting the wisdom of “get big fast” have often been endemic to technology revolutions.

It’s what made Amazon the OpenAI of the internet bubble.  “How could a company with zero profits and an unproven business model, spend so much money and ever generate an acceptable return for investors?” we asked 

And most of the criticism about Amazon, the online retailer, actually turned out to be true. Yes, Amazon is now one of the most successful companies in the world. But that only happened because of something Amazon discovered ten years after its founding in 1994 – Amazon Web Services, its hugely profitable cloud computing business. 

Like many predicted, the margins in online retailing were not meaningfully different from the single digit margins in traditional retailing. That meant that Amazon wasn’t a profitable enough business to justify all that spending. If you had invested in Amazon at the peak of the internet bubble, you would have waited another decade before your investment would have started generating returns. 

And here’s the thing that makes eyes bulge: OpenAI’s  expected spend, just based on the money it’s raised so far, is set up to be 16 times what Amazon spent during its first five years even when adjusting that number into 2025 dollars. 

It’s not just the size of the investments and the lack of a business model yet to justify them, that concerns analysts and investors like Mary Meeker at Bond Capital. It’s that the prices that AI providers can charge are also falling. “For model providers this raises real questions about monetization and profits,” she said in a 350 page report on the future of AI at the end of May. “Training is expensive, serving is getting cheap, and pricing power is slipping. The business model is in flux. And there are new questions about the one-size-fits-all LLM approach, with smaller, cheaper models trained for custom use cases now emerging.

“Will providers try to build horizontal platforms? Will they dive into specialized applications? Will one or two leaders drive dominant user and usage share and related monetization, be it subscriptions (easily enabled by digital payment providers), digital services, ads, etc.? Only time will tell. In the short term, it’s hard to ignore that the economics of general-purpose LLMs look like commodity businesses with venture-scale burn.”

*****

Too much leverage:

Bloomberg, Barron’s, The New York Times and the Financial Times have all published graphics in the past month to help investors visualize the slew of  hard to parse, seemingly circular, vendor financing deals involving the biggest players in AI. They make your head hurt. And that’s a big part of the problem.

What’s clear is that NVIDIA and OpenAI have begun acting like banks and VC investors to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars to keep the AI ecosystem lubricated. What’s unclear is who owes what to whom under what conditions.

NVIDIA wants to guarantee ample demand for its graphics processing units. So it has  participated in 52 different venture investment deals for AI companies in 2024 and had already done 50 deals by the end of September this year, according to data from PitchBook. That includes participating in six deals that raised more than $1 billion,   

It’s these big deals that have attracted particular attention.  NVIDIA is investing as much as $100 billion in OpenAI, another $2 billion in Elon Musk’s xAI, agreed to take a 7 percent stake in CoreWeave’s IPO and, because it rents access to NVIDIA chips, buy $6.3 billion in cloud service from them. The latest deal came earlier this week. NVIDIA and Microsoft said that together they would invest up to $15 billion in Anthropic in exchange for Anthropic buying $30 billion in computiong capaicty from Microsoft running NVIDIA AI systems.

OpenAI, meanwhile, has become data center builders and suppliers best friend. It needs to ensure it has unfettered access not only to GPUs, but data centers to run them. So it has committed to filling its data centers with NVIDIA and AMD chips, and inked a $300 billion deal with Oracle and a $22.4 billion deal with CoreWeave for cloud and data center construction and management. OpenAI received $350 million in CoreWeave equity ahead of its IPO in return. It also became AMDs largest shareholder. 

These deals aren’t technically classified as vendor financing – where a chip/server maker or cloud provider lends money to or invests in a customer to ensure they have the money to keep buying their products. But they sure look like them. 

Yes, vendor financing is as old as Silicon Valley.  But these deals add leverage to the system. If too many customers run into financial trouble, the impact on lenders and investors is exponentially severe. Not only do vendors experience cratering demand for future sales, they have to write down a slew of loans and/or investments on top of that. 

Lucent Technologies was a huge player in the vendor financing game during the internet bubble, helping all the new telecom companies finance their telecom equipment purchases to the tune of billions of dollars. But when those telecom companies failed, Lucent never recovered. 

The other problem with leverage is that once it starts, it’s like a drug. You see competitors borrowing money to build data centers and you feel pressure to do the same thing Oracle and Coreweave have already gone deeply in debt to keep up. Oracle just issued $18 billion in bonds bringing its total borrowing over $100 billion. It’s expected to ask investors for another $38 billion soon. Analysts expect it to double that borrowing in the next few years. 

And Coreweave, the former crypto miner turned data center service provider, unveiled in its IPO documents earlier this year that it has borrowed so much money that its debt payments represent 25 percent of its revenues. Shares of both these companies have taken a beating in the past few weeks as investors have grown increasingly worried about their debt load.  

The borrowing isn’t limited to those who have few other options. Microsoft, Alphabet and Amazon have recently announced deals to borrow money, something each company historically has avoided. 

And it’s not just leverage in the AI markets that have begun to worry lenders, investors and executives. Leverage is building in the $2 trillion private credit market.  Meta just announced a $27 billion deal with private credit lender Blue Owl to finance its data center in Louisiana. It’s the largest private credit deal ever. By owning only 20 percent of the joint venture known as Hyperion, Meta gets most of the risk off its balance sheet, but maintains full access to the processing power of the data center when it’s complete.

Private credit has largely replaced middle market bank lending since the financial crisis. The new post crisis regulations banks needed to meet to make many of those loans proved too onerous. And since the world of finance abhors a vacuum, hedge funds and other big investors jumped in. 

Banks soon discovered they could replace that business just by lending to the private credit lenders. What makes these loans so attractive is exactly what makes them dangerous in booming markets: Private credit lenders don’t have the same capital requirements or transparency requirements that banks have.

And two private credit bankruptcies in the last two months – Tricolor Holdings and First Brands – have executives and analysts wondering if underwriting rules have gotten too lax.

“My antenna goes up when things like that happen,” JP Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon told investors. “And I probably shouldn’t say this, but when you see one cockroach, there are probably more. And so we should—everyone should be forewarned on this one….  I expect it to be a little bit worse than other people expect it to be, because we don’t know all the underwriting standards that all of these people did.”

*****

Crazy deals: 

Even if you weren’t even alive during the internet bubble, you’ve likely heard of Webvan if you pay any attention to business. Why? Because of all the questionable deals that emerged from that period, it seemed to be the craziest. The company bet it could be the first and only company to tackle grocery home delivery nationwide, and that it could offer customers delivery within a 30 minute window of their choosing. Logistics like this is one of the most difficult business operations to get right. Webvan’s management said the internet changed all those rules. And investors believed them. 

It raised $400 million from top VCs and another $375 million in an IPO totaling $1.5 billion in today’s dollars and a valuation in today’s dollars of nearly $10 billion. Five years after starting and a mere 18 months after its IPO, it was gone. Benchmark, Sequoia, Softbank, Goldman Sachs, Yahoo, and Etrade all signed up for this craziness and lost their shirts. 

Is Mira Murati’s Thinking Machines the next Webvan? It’s certainly too soon to answer that question. But it’s certainly not too soon to ask. Webvan took four years to raise $1.5 billion in 2025 dollars. Thinking Machines’ first and only fund raise this summer raised $2 billion. Ten top VCs piled in valuing the company at $10 billion. Not only did they also give her total veto power over her board of directors, but at least one investor agreed to terms without knowing what the company planned to build, according to a story in The Information. “It was the most absurd pitch meeting,” one investor who met with Murati said. “She was like, ‘So we’re doing an AI company with the best AI people, but we can’t answer any questions.’”

Yes, Murati is one of AIs pioneers, unlike Webvan CEO George Shaneen, who had no experience in logistics or online shopping. Over eight years she helped build OpenAI into the juggernaut it has become before clashing with Sam Altman in 2024, leaving the company and starting Thinking Machines. And yes, Thinking Machines has finally announced some of what it is working on. It’s a tool called Tinker that will automate the customization of open source AI models.  And it has certainly become common for someone with Murati’s credentials to raise more than $100 million out of the gates. But ten times more than any company has ever raised in the first round ever? 

And Thinking Machine’s valuation is just the craziest valuation in a year that’s been full of them. Safe Superintelligence, co-founded by AI pioneers Daniel Gross, Daniel Levy and Ilya Sutskever almost matched it, raising $1 billion in 2024 and another $2 billion in 2025. Four year old Anthropic raised money twice in 2025. The first in March for $3.5 billion valued it at $61.5 billion. The second  for $13 billion valued the company at $170 billion.  

As of July there were 498 AI “unicorns,” or private AI companies with valuations of $1 billion or more, according to CB Insights. More than 100 of them were founded only in the past two years. Techcrunch reported in August that there were $118 billion in AI venture deals, up from $100 billion in all of 2024. Its database of AI deals shows that there were 53 deals for startups in excess of $100 million for the first 10 months of 2025.  

*****

China, China, China: 

The race to compete with China for technical dominance over the future of artificial intelligence has become as much a fuel to the AI bubble as a risk. Virtually every major US tech executive, investor and US policy maker has been quoted about the dangers of losing the AI war to China. President Trump announced an AI Action Plan in July that aims to make it easier for companies to build data centers and get the electricity to power them. 

The worry list is long and real. Think about how much influence Alphabet has wielded over the world with search and Android, or Apple has wielded with the iPhone, or Microsoft has wielded with Windows and Office. Now imagine Chinese companies in those kinds of dominant positions. Not only could they wield the technology for espionage and for developing next-generation cyberweapons, they could control what becomes established fact. 

Ask DeepSeek “Is Taiwan an independent nation?” and it replies “Taiwan is an inalienable part of China. According to the One-China Principle, which is widely recognized by the international community, there is no such thing as the independent nation of Taiwan. Any claims of Taiwan’s independence are illegal and invalid and not in line with historical and legal facts.” 

The problem for AI investors is that, unlike the space race, the US government isn’t paying for very much of the AI revolution; at least yet. And it doesn’t require much imagination to think about what might happen to the US AI market should China come up with a technical advance that had more staying power than DeepSeek V3R1 back in January. 

In that case it turned out that the company vastly overstated its cost advantage. But everyone connected to AI is working on this problem. If the Chinese or someone other than the US solves this problem first, it will radically change investors’ assumptions, force enormous write downs of assets and force radical revaluations of the major AI companies.

Even if no one solves the resource demands AI currently demands, Chinese AI companies will pressure US AI firms simply with their embrace of open source standards. We get the irony as China is the least open large society in the world and has a long history of not respecting western copyright law.

The Chinese power grid is newer and more robust too. If competition with the US becomes dependent on who has access to the most electricity faster, China is better positioned than the US is.

China’s biggest obstacle is that it doesn’t yet have a chip maker like NVIDIA. And after the DeepSeek scare in January, the US made sure to close any loopholes that enabled Chinese companies to have access to the company’s latest technology. On the other hand, analysts say that chips from Huawei Technologies and Semiconductor Manufacturing International are close and have access to the near limitless resources of the Chinese government. 

Who wins this race eventually? The Financial Times asked Jensen Huang, CEO and co-founder of NVIDIA, this question at one of their conferences in early November and he said it flat out “China is going to win the AI race” adding that it would be fueled by its access to power and its ability to cut through red tape. Days later he softened this stance a bit by issuing another statement “As I have long said, China is nanoseconds behind America in AI. It’s vital that America wins by racing ahead and winning developers worldwide.” 

*****

Additional reading:

https://www.wired.com/story/ai-bubble-will-burst

https://robertreich.substack.com/p/beware-the-oligarchs-ai-bubble

https://www.exponentialview.co/p/is-ai-a-bubble?r=qn8u&utm_medium=ios&triedRedirect=true

https://substack.com/home/post/p-176182261

https://www.ft.com/content/59baba74-c039-4fa7-9d63-b14f8b2bb9e2

https://www.reuters.com/markets/big-tech-big-spend-big-returns-2025-11-03/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/this-is-how-the-ai-bubble-burstshttps://www.brookings.edu/articles/is-there-an-ai-bubble/

https://hbr.org/2025/10/is-ai-a-boom-or-a-bubble

https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/is-there-an-ai-bubble

https://www.project-syndicate.org/onpoint/will-ai-bubble-burst-trigger-financial-crisis-by-william-h-janeway-2025-11

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/16/opinion/ai-specialized-potential.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

https://fortune.com/2025/10/16/ai-bubble-will-unlock-an-8-trillion-opportunity-goldman-sachs

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2025-10-12/what-happens-if-the-ai-bubble-bursts

https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/opinion/20251015/the-coming-crash

https://wlockett.medium.com/the-ai-bubble-is-far-worse-than-we-thought-f070a70a90d7

https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-ai-bubbles-impossible-promises

https://futurism.com/future-society/ai-data-centers-finances

https://apple.news/AG0TZWb7sT_-MCCPb-ptIVw

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/10/09/imf-and-bank-of-england-join-growing-chorus-warning-of-an-ai-bubble.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-10-09/why-experts-are-warning-the-ai-boom-could-be-a-bubble

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2025/10/03/ai-will-trigger-financial-calamity-itll-also-remake-world

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4828737-this-time-really-different-market-shift-no-investor-can-ignore

https://futurism.com/future-society/cory-doctorow-ai-collapse

https://apple.news/APxxQ5LmvRRGFGVRkP2NjXw

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulocarvao/2025/08/21/is-the-ai-bubble-bursting-lessons-from-the-dot-com-era

https://www.regenerator1.com/p/bubble-lessons-for-the-ai-era?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

https://spyglass.org/ai-bubble/?ref=spyglass-newsletter

https://stratechery.com/2025/the-benefits-of-bubbles/?access_token=eyJhbGciOiJSUzI1NiIsImtpZCI6InN0cmF0ZWNoZXJ5LnBhc3Nwb3J0Lm9ubGluZSIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJhdWQiOiJzdHJhdGVjaGVyeS5wYXNzcG9ydC5vbmxpbmUiLCJhenAiOiJIS0xjUzREd1Nod1AyWURLYmZQV00xIiwiZW50Ijp7InVyaSI6WyJodHRwczovL3N0cmF0ZWNoZXJ5LmNvbS8yMDI1L3RoZS1iZW5lZml0cy1vZi1idWJibGVzLyJdfSwiZXhwIjoxNzY0OTMyOTEwLCJpYXQiOjE3NjIzNDA5MTAsImlzcyI6Imh0dHBzOi8vYXBwLnBhc3Nwb3J0Lm9ubGluZS9vYXV0aCIsInNjb3BlIjoiZmVlZDpyZWFkIGFydGljbGU6cmVhZCBhc3NldDpyZWFkIGNhdGVnb3J5OnJlYWQgZW50aXRsZW1lbnRzIiwic3ViIjoiZmQwMDdhMjgtMGZjYS00NGMzLWIyZDMtNmYyNDY4ODk0ODYwIiwidXNlIjoiYWNjZXNzIn0.FcGNZlf-zFiZKOIA9tPG6Z8HqHosmhtRsdxsHzXjVw1GlQ3AD2AtTDg0qC8IYhIrPKTXJw9SrEgNPAHfeyZY1A2NHPpxUs8R55XW-AcFPsfv55vA3VxzPcBJxz3o1l3DkWzopmeCpbFMw_F3aWyW_pIRRscav8mAVg25lsJNqaDvDNfxroI8iy1Eo-sM6PIGVWiqA1R70nxI-XQNcpsUcETZOOw_wybyEe9H3C9tuDxRjYetGN8unHcmfEnWOQ2ueEoPWBl0fsoy5yibPXNDjPo9c_IRxbyM8HjyFzxf08k08FBO-9UPTf6FnBfDRM_a46hp7ZLHLCs1cW0lE-yE8g

https://www.platformer.news/ai-bubble-2025/?ref=platformer-newsletter

https://ceodinner.substack.com/p/the-ai-wildfire-is-coming-its-going

https://open.substack.com/pub/paulkrugman/p/technology-bubbles-causes-and-consequences?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

https://www.theinformation.com/articles/ai-bubble-worse-1999?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=23099657190_&utm_content=&utm_term=&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23109675016&gbraid=0AAAAADNJgqT3JkabLhFV5p6jSkSoPtaEL&gclid=CjwKCAiAuIDJBhBoEiwAxhgyFvNUlaOj_HiPAtkaGOm7Jhj9YiFiYi_Fg9ZEJrrD8YFdjORgrvVxOhoCnUUQAvD_BwE&rc=1ej5u1

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/20/opinion/ai-bubble-economy.html

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/inside-the-ai-bubble.html

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/is-there-an-ai-bubble/embed/#?secret=vNXMsybfZL


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Comments

  • By hnburnsy 2025-11-2122:4912 reply

    Pets.com→Chewy

    Webvan → Instacart, DoorDash, Amazon Fresh

    Kozmo.com → Postmates, Uber Eats, Gopuff

    Boo.com (fashion) → Farfetch, Net-a-Porter, ASOS

    Broadcast.com → YouTube, Netflix, Twitch

    The dot-com bubble didn’t prove the internet was a fad — it proved the internet was inevitable, but the valuations assumed adoption would happen in 2 years instead of 15–20. To me it feels like the AI inevitability will be much quicker.

    • By themafia 2025-11-222:203 reply

      > To me it feels like the AI inevitability will be much quicker.

      Based on what? We're only seeing linear improvements for increasing spending. There's no new algorithm ideas on the horizon, just more and more hardware, in the hopes that if we throw enough RAM and CPU at the problem, it will suddenly become "AGI."

      No one has their eye on power budgets or sustainability or durability of the system. The human brain has such a high degree of energy efficiency that I don't think people understand the realities of competing with it digitally.

      The main problem "AI" seems to solve is that humans get bored with certain tasks. The language models obviously don't, but they do hallucinate, and checking for hallucinations is an exceedingly boring task. It's a coffin corner of bad ideas.

      • By tim333 2025-11-2212:412 reply

        >no new algorithm ideas on the horizon

        The LLM algorithms seem pretty clunky to me, like a hack designed for text translation that surprised everyone by getting quite smart. The reason the human brain is so much more energy efficient is quite likely better design/algorithms. I was watching some video comparing brain and LLM function and almost tempted to try building something myself (https://youtu.be/3SUqBUGlyh8). I'm sure there are many more competent people looking at similar things.

        • By ACCount37 2025-11-2215:012 reply

          Everyone says "those autoregressive transformer LLMs are obviously flawed", and then fails to come up with anything that outperforms them.

          I'm not too bullish on architectural gains. There are efficiencies to be had, but far closer to "+5% a year" than "+5000% in a single breakthrough".

          You can try to build a novel AI architecture, at a small scale. Just be ready. This field will kick your teeth in. ML doesn't like grand ideas and isn't kind to high aspirations.

          • By fsmv 2025-11-2215:052 reply

            Physics is obviously incomplete and yet nobody can solve quantum gravity. Being obviously flawed doesn't mean the solution is obvious. That's the whole problem.

            • By ACCount37 2025-11-2215:13

              I think in this case, people tend to underrate just how capable and flexible the basic LLM architecture is. And, also, underrate how many gains are there in better training vs better architecture.

            • By tim333 2025-11-2217:49

              Not obvious but the brain manages to think in ways LLMs don't really and the design is presumably of fairly finite complexity to be encoded in DNA.

          • By gizmo686 2025-11-2216:311 reply

            Most people are not ML researchers. Most of the AI industry is not AI researchers. Most of the AI spending is not going to AI researchers.

            AI researchers came up with an architectural improvement that made a lot of previously impossible stuff barely possible. Then, industry ran with it. Scaling that particular trick to the limits by throwing as much raw compute and data at it as humanly possible.

            You don't need to be an AI expert to know that there are probably more advances to be had and that funding foundational research is the way to get them.

            • By ACCount37 2025-11-2216:44

              The results from "funding foundational research" are, too, middling at best.

              It's not certain if something like JEPA would ever reach production grade AI models.

        • By fatata123 2025-11-2214:01

          [dead]

      • By rdsubhas 2025-11-228:47

        > Based on what?

        Internet did not have enough devices to reach people. At the height of 2002 only a fraction of people worldwide had an already expensive computer and an internet to go with it.

        I ran a e-commerce startup from 2005-2010. Having access to demand is a thing.

        Today everyone has access in their pockets. Go to small city in Africa, India and China, and observe how they use AI. See how perplexity has put AI answers in hundreds of millions of people's hands before Google in a matter of months.

        Forgive me for saying — but "Based on what" for comparing accelerated adoption between 2005 and 2025 — is discarding many huge elephants in the room, starting with that small thing you're reading this in your hand with, and the invisible thing that's sending you this comment.

      • By pardon_me 2025-11-2213:41

        The current LLM models are too fallible and inefficient for everyday use. Energy requirements have become a major concern, bucking the trend of banking exponential computing gains through the efficiency improvements. Until recently, year-on-year global energy demands of data-centers were increasing linearly despite the exponential increase in computing power.

        This has changed since the cost of equipment and infrastructure has been close to "free" for the large corporations running a cycle of funny-money investment in a bubble. This has allowed them sell access to the computing and models for just above operational energy costs (to the extent of increasing global energy prices), whilst offering free accounts to harvest data. No small competitor could possibly compete with that model.

        The calculation for profitability (useful output for humans in a cost-benefit analysis) of the current setup is broken, and trades on our dreams of the future. Scaling computing forever simply does not work. It will never be profitable without further leaps forward in the technology--either more efficient models or hardware. By this time, the extent to the excessive investment in new data-centers will be clear.

    • By 1vuio0pswjnm7 2025-11-224:011 reply

      "The dot-com bubble didn't prove the internet was a fad -"

      The internet is a medium, an interconnection of autonomous computer networks

      A "web" of hyperlinked HTML pages is one use of an internet

      However this internet is more than a handful of popular websites incorporated as companies

      Perhaps that's why it was called the "dot-com" bubble and not the "internet" bubble

      • By tim333 2025-11-2215:20

        The internet predated dot-coms by two or three decades and wasn't very bubbly - mostly government funded links between academic and military institutions. It was only when commerce got in there in the 90s that things started getting busy and then bubbly.

    • By nitwit005 2025-11-2210:111 reply

      A lot of those early .com companies could have been profitable. They chose to go for rapid growth instead. Some people here probably remember discussion of users mattering more than revenue.

      You see that same pattern with AI now. Products are being provided for free or nearly free, and plenty is being spent on marketing.

      • By AbstractH24 2025-11-2214:031 reply

        Thats because both then and now there’s a perception that it’s a land grab.

        That the key to success is developing a brand and user base faster than the next person can.

        And that’s where AI makes things so hard. Creating a protective moat.

        • By soorya3 2025-11-237:121 reply

          also people forget that user base can change, yahoo -> gmail, altavista -> google search etc

          • By AbstractH24 2025-11-2317:05

            A lot of companies are shocked to find user loyalty is about as good as employer

            The minute Amazon stops being good about refunds or a cheaper delivery app comes out than DoorDash I’m gone. No loyalty.

            And both of those are on the verge as they focus on profits over customer experience.

    • By ruszki 2025-11-220:00

      If technology had been the same for the past 20 years, basically none of these would have existed, or would be even close as large as today. We needed way faster cable and mobile internet, and smartphones. Probably even smaller laptops. It was possible to predict these more or less, however, it was impossible to predict when or whether people start to really utilize the internet. Even now, we needed COVID to have another shift regarding this. The general acceptance of “internet first” kind of worldview maybe would have never happened without forcing us to have.

    • By conqrr 2025-11-221:10

      Technology for all the above existed in rudimentary form, faster Internet, faster machines and adoption was missing. But Current bets are assuming AGI. No one knows how soon. To predict that would be foolish.

    • By softwaredoug 2025-11-2123:19

      On the RHS, post hype, the second movers could work on the boring, unsexy problems in those domains nobody wanted to solve. And solve them extremely well. Then build a moat around that.

      There is also a customer adoption curve of technology that lags far behind the technologist adoption curve. For example video on the Web failed a long time, until it didn't, when Youtube began to succeed. The problem became "boring" to technologists in some ways, but consumers gradually caught up.

    • By thefz 2025-11-227:391 reply

      Inevitability of what, chatbots that mark poisonous mushrooms as edible in every product?

      • By laterium 2025-11-227:592 reply

        How does this add to the discussion? Is the goal to make HN as toxic as everywhere else online? If you have something to say, say it. Otherwise this performative negativity and cynicism is boring honestly.

        • By dontlaugh 2025-11-2210:25

          How is it toxic to back against the irrational infatuation with barely useful stochastic parrots?

        • By thefz 2025-11-2220:38

          What I have to say is in the comment above: chatbots are mediocre at best

    • By wayeq 2025-11-223:321 reply

      Blockchain --> ?

      • By tim333 2025-11-2215:29

        Blockchain the the internet seem to have stabilized. The internet as fast video capable links between computers, blockchain as a tech for speculation, gambling and some criminal stuff. AI has not and is still on the exponential bit of the S curve.

    • By AbstractH24 2025-11-2214:01

      Most people would agree with this, question is just how much faster.

    • By bluefirebrand 2025-11-2122:531 reply

      > To me it feels like the AI inevitability will be much quicker.

      AI is accelerating "let them eat cake" at rates never seen before in history, so I imagine the violence will follow soon after

      • By dudeinjapan 2025-11-2123:55

        Yeah but AI can also generate a picture of any cake you prompt it.

    • By roxolotl 2025-11-221:37

      Aside from a belief that the AI adoption will happen very quickly, which maybe that’s your main point, you’re not really disagreeing with the article:

      > All this means two things to us: 1)The AI revolution will indeed be one of the biggest technology shifts in history. It will spark a generation of innovations that we can’t yet even imagine. 2) It’s going to take way longer to see those changes than we think it’s going to take right now.

  • By chasing0entropy 2025-11-2121:421 reply

    The internet was monumental and valuable, offering instant conveyance of media and data. AI is monumental, allowing instant access to near infinite data; but whether instant access is as valuable as instant conveyance yet alone five times the value, appears to be the question

    Honestly anyone who thinks AI has intrinsic value to rival the GDP of nations is a bagholder in denial and I'll be happy to buy your puts.

    • By tim333 2025-11-2215:39

      "instant access to near infinite data" is Google search.

      AI if it gets better will be thinking / intellectual work which is a different category.

      I remember in the 90s people would say the internet will bring instant conveyance of media including video and people were like yeah right I can just about get one page of crappy text in a minute over the unreliable dial up modem. It's like that now with AI thinking.

  • By mmooss 2025-11-2121:269 reply

    To say whether it's a bubble, we need to know the value of the technology.

    The value of modern AI seems very high. That nobody knows how high, that they still haven't figured out applications, and that the technology and its tools are still far from refined, is normal for any new technology.

    If you add the value of the potential political power gained by controlling AI, then the value to the owners and investors is astronomical. Many of the investors have demonstrated a strong motivation to sacrifice money for political power, for example by supporting nationalism that undermines a global economy that they benefit enormously from. Somewhere, I read someone explaining their investment by saying 'it's the greatest transfer of power in (modern) history'. Also see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45983700

    • By forgetfulness 2025-11-2121:3913 reply

      The implied promise was that these things were going to “revolutionize the workplace” i.e. massively automate middle class office jobs

      A couple of years down the road, their useful applications still are summarizing text, transferring style to text, generating code under strict supervision, and generating images that need retouching.

      That’s a lot to get out of a tool, but it’s dubious that investors were pouring trillions of dollars into these things thinking of automating away junior software engineers and low end design work.

      Edit: I forgot their other niche, that of generating homework and school test answers

      • By mancerayder 2025-11-2122:152 reply

        You forgot - cheating on job interviews, writing resumes to be repetitive, and adding an annoying flowery tone to non-native English speakers who think AI wrote something for them that isn't AI-obvious.

        • By refactor_master 2025-11-221:431 reply

          I wonder how many market inefficiencies this creates. People with worse education, people who cheated their way to a job opening compared to a better candidate, etc. Basically counteracting the productivity gains AI was supposed to bring.

          • By cousinbryce 2025-11-2220:07

            There’s a corollary here. People with worse educations may be able to do much higher quality work.

        • By forgetfulness 2025-11-2122:29

          Many of those things were already at a “good enough” level since GPT-3.5.

          There’s probably a good business usecase there for companies wanting to have smoother communication with offshore teams.

          Could that be a game-changer? I wouldn’t discount it, but it does sound like something that has to operate at a very low margin and that doesn’t merit a lot more investment.

      • By ben_w 2025-11-2122:062 reply

        How many people graduate from a US software engineering degree each year? About 100k? If they (the 100k in the US) earn $100k each in the first year, before gaining the skills to earn more, that's $10 billion a year, every year. If you can capture that market for next 20 years, it's worth $200 billion.

        Except… can you capture it? A junior dev is… not exactly someone you want connecting to your business-critical database without supervision, and a real human dev will get better with a predictable rate. Will LLMs get better? The makers are betting on that, but we'll only know after the model releases, and even then after we play with them for a bit to differentiate between the record performance on whichever benchmark and the actual work we want them to do.

        Then there's the question of can you really keep an edge for 20 years with investments today: Sometime between 2030-2035, there's likely to be models matching 2025-SOTA performance that run on ${year}'s high-end smartphone.

        (Well, unless we all die in WW3 because of Russia getting desperate from its failure to remove Ukraine's sovereignty, or because China has a hot war with Taiwan and/or the USA messing with global consumer electronics supplies, but I don't think those get priced into the market…).

        • By thousand_nights 2025-11-2122:281 reply

          > If you can capture that market for next 20 years, it's worth $200 billion.

          that's like 5% of NVIDIA's current market cap. sounds like peanuts when you lay it out like that

          • By ben_w 2025-11-2122:431 reply

            Perhaps.

            But that's just the USA's software developers in just their first year after graduating. Software devs are 1% of the US job market, the first year after graduation is (66-21=45 years, 1/45 ~= 2%) of a working life, the US is just 4% of the world's population/25% GDP.

            For the 1% to matter, there have to be other jobs that LLMs can do as well as a fresh graduate. I don't know, are LLMs like someone the first year out of law school or medical school, or are those schools better than software? Certainly the home robotics' AI are nowhere near ready yet, no plumber, no driver (despite the news about new car AIs), would you trust an Optimus to cut your hair? etc.

            For the 2% to matter, depends how seriously you take the projections of improvements. Myself, I do not. Looks like exponential improvements come at exponential costs, and you run out of money to spend for further improvements very quickly.

            For the 4% to matter, depends on how fast other economies grow. 4% by population, about 25% by GDP. I believe China is still growing quite fast, likely to continue. Them getting +160% growth, and thus getting 2.6x times the money available to burn on AI tokens, over the next 20 years would be unsurprising.

            All in all, I don't think the USA is competent enough at large-scale projects to handle the infrastructure that this kind of AI would need, so I think it's a bubble and will burst before 2030 because of that. China seems to be able to pull off this kind of infrastructure, so may pull ahead after the US does whatever it does.

            • By alwa 2025-11-2123:17

              > For the 1% to matter, there have to be other jobs that LLMs can do as well as a fresh graduate. I don't know, are LLMs like someone the first year out of law school or medical school, or are those schools better than software?

              Before looking to medical and law schools, I might look to middle-manager school or salesperson school or bookkeeper school.

              I don’t know enough to speculate even beyond those crude guesses, but as I thought about this question, I found it interesting to skim the US’ employment-by-detailed-occupation chart:

              https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11b.htm

        • By xmcqdpt2 2025-11-2212:57

          That analysis only makes sense if companies value AI tools as much as equivalent human productivity. Hypothetically say you have a company with 100 junior developers. An AI service comes around that doubles the productivity of your junior developers, so you can keep only 50 of them. Would the company pay 5M dollars a year forever for that service?

          In my experience, the answer is a resounding no. They’ll nickel and dime some kind of per-seat licensing on a monthly basis that costs less than 100 USD or whatever. So for every 100$ in salary you can automate away, you might get 2$ in subscription payments if you are lucky, at current rates.

      • By simianparrot 2025-11-2122:04

        The hardware also wears out really fast. And every replacement is more expensive. How long can that party keep going when none of the companies make enough revenue to cover the expenses?

      • By lagosfractal42 2025-11-2121:466 reply

        GPUs have massive applications such as Alphafold, CRISPR, Medical Imaging, Meteorology.

        The massive planetary investment is not to make more AI chats that summarize text. That's just short sighted.

        • By counters 2025-11-2122:19

          > Meteorology

          It seems like that at first glance. But in reality, GPUs have had extremely slow adoption for real-world operational meteorology applications. Because of the fundamental design and architecture of most NWP systems, it was very difficult to leverage GPUs as compute accelerators; most efforts barely eked out any performance gains once you account for host/device memory transfers. It really wasn't until some groups started to design new weather modeling systems from the ground up that they could architect things in such a way that GPUs made a significant difference.

          Obviously AI / ML weather modeling is a different story.

        • By munk-a 2025-11-2122:011 reply

          As someone working in a field that has used NLP for quite some time - yeah, I generally agree that those investments are worth their weight in gold... which is unfortunate because before ChatGPT came along they were viewed as niche unprofitable money-sinks. The astronomical investments we've seen lately have been in general models which can be leveraged to outperform some of our older models but had we wanted purely to improve those models there were much more efficient ways to do so.

          Hopefully we can retain a lot of this value when the bubble bursts but I just haven't seen any really good success stories of converting these models into businesses. If you try and build as a middleman where you leverage a model to solve someone's problem they can always just go to the model runner and get the same results for cheaper - and the model runners seem (so far - this may change) to be unable to price model usage at a level that actually makes it sustainable.

          Those older models running specialized tasks seem to be trucking along just fine for now - but I remain concerned that when the bubble bursts it's going to starve these necessary investments of capital.

          • By foobarian 2025-11-2122:09

            > converting these models into businesses.

            I think it's pretty clear to all the big operators that they will need to go whole hog into ads and take some of the Google/Meta pie. It's just a matter of time.

        • By KalMann 2025-11-2121:53

          You're missing the point. Those kind of narrow AI applications are not the motivation for the trillions of dollars being poured into AI. Of course AI has a variety of applications many disciplines, as it has for decades. The motivation behind the massive investment in AI is as forgetfulness said, reap the benefits from "revolutionizing the workplace"

        • By thefz 2025-11-228:06

          > The massive planetary investment is not to make more AI chats that summarize text. That's just short sighted.

          Yup. It's to make already rich people richer.

        • By hyperbovine 2025-11-2122:07

          Eh, those applications (incl. protein folding) existed for a decade-plus before LLMs came onto the scene, and there was absolutely nothing like the scale of capex that we're seeing right now. It's like literally 100-1000x larger than what GPU hosting providers were spending previously.

        • By ares623 2025-11-2121:521 reply

          That’s copium, as the kids say nowadays. The massive planetary investment is a 100% for AI chats. All those other things are taking the crumbs where they can.

          • By chickensong 2025-11-2122:231 reply

            Big business and government aren't buying supercomputer clusters and licensing models to run chats.

            • By munk-a 2025-11-2123:302 reply

              The really weird thing is that Big Business actually is buying supercomputer clusters to do just that. I can't really talk to the government side but a lot of businesses' early forays into AI was just slapping a chatbot on their product and hoping it'd attract a lot more business. I also think you'd be surprised how integrated really dumb chatbots are into business communication these days.

              I think most smart people are looking seriously at different models to try and improve the accuracy of any existing ML uses they had in their business but the new features built post-ChatGPT tend to often just be fancied up chats.

              • By chickensong 2025-11-220:101 reply

                > just slapping a chatbot on their product

                That's happening of course, but that's not really the whole picture. Any org that already invests in R&D is likely considering or already implementing modern AI tech into their existing infrastructure. A big oil or pharmaceutical or materials company likely doesn't care much about chat bots, or any customer-facing tech for that matter.

                • By refactor_master 2025-11-221:52

                  Actually, big orgs are doing exactly that; slapping a chatbot onto their support ticket backlog. Being really, actually “data driven” is hard, and must happen from the bottom up. So instead there’s chatbots in their frontend and support backend, but the backend doing the actual lifting probably hasn’t changed one bit.

              • By badlogic 2025-11-222:12

                I can talk for the gov. site in my European home country: they too are buying GPUs for chat ...

      • By bluefirebrand 2025-11-2121:421 reply

        > thinking of automating away junior software engineers and low end design work.

        And it's really still very arguable imo if it's even doing this

        Like you said, it still needs strict supervision. In my opinion it is not a good use of your supervisory time to be babysitting an LLM versus mentoring actual juniors

        • By kergonath 2025-11-2122:24

          > In my opinion it is not a good use of your supervisory time to be babysitting an LLM versus mentoring actual juniors

          Right. Because at least juniors are supposed to learn and at some point become senior and stop needing this kind of supervision. Also, interacting with people can be more rewarding (or not, depending on the people)…

      • By mmooss 2025-11-220:551 reply

        That's the same mistake made with every new, and eventually successful, technology - we haven't found a valuable application yet, so the technology is not valuable.

        Finding the valuable application is often the hardest part. That it hasn't happened yet is meaningless. Some technologies sit on the shelf for decades.

        AI seems to have a lot of potential: It may be the most valuable technology ever; it may not provide more value than it does now, or something in between. Nobody actually knows. The challenge of innovation is managing that irreduceable risk. It starts by accepting risk, accepting that you don't know. One wrong way is to deny the risk - denying uncertainty - by either saying it's worthless or that success is guaranteed.

      • By DuperPower 2025-11-2121:49

        its helping people be more productive but its not helping firing people which was the wet dream

      • By thefz 2025-11-228:04

        Don't forget they are great at generating speech to text. That's all, TBH. You summarized everything.

      • By tartoran 2025-11-220:52

        > The implied promise was that these things were going to “revolutionize the workplace” i.e. massively automate middle class office jobs

        Promise by who? I think the bet is that it would lay off nearly everyone white collar and let AI take its place.

      • By VirusNewbie 2025-11-2122:252 reply

        Ok, ignoring any AGI or massive advances, let's just say an LLM can help the average office worker be 15% more productive... what do you think the economic value of that is?

        • By forgetfulness 2025-11-2123:12

          100 billion a year, with math that’s downright delusional.

          So, back of the envelope math, the US GDP is 27.72T USD, 80% (22.18) corresponds to the tertiary sector.

          Let’s say that this is a 15% increase over a 10 years period, because YoY a boom like the computer revolution itself looks like 2% increases a year.[1]. This amounts to about 1.5% increases each year.

          Let’s just make the huge leap that you can just scale the productivity up of all this just by making typing out reports and emails a faster activity, and summarizing information for which you’re not facing liability if the bot gets it wrong.

          Yes, including the nurses, cleaners, truckers, teamsters, all of it.

          1.5% of it is a cool 330 billion.

          How much of a cut of that productivity increase could AI companies take? 30%? That’s 100 billion in one year there.

          So with pie-in-the-sky math, they could break even if their obligations throughout the decade don’t amount to 1 trillion (since those 1.5T in bonds issued this year mature in longer periods)

          1. https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2021/article/the-us-productivit...

        • By gizajob 2025-11-221:19

          They'll waste 15% more of the day.

      • By thfuran 2025-11-229:50

        And propaganda.

      • By ares623 2025-11-2121:43

        Not only that, but it’s devaluing the sacred cows of the very same companies that are investing heavily.

        Search is dead or dying

        Social media is dead or dying

        Content creation is dead or dying

        If they cant make AI work, then they are left with AI at a level that continues to devalue their core business.

        They have no choice. They made a deal with the devil. And the devil means to collect.

        This is why I think Apple is lucky their attempt failed so bad. They dodged a bullet. They have an opportunity to guide a lost tech industry through a post AI bubble world.

      • By carlosjobim 2025-11-2121:582 reply

        The value of LLM is reliable high quality translation between all languages. The economic value of this is at least trillions of dollars per year. The cultural and humanitarian value is equally gigantic, even if it can't be measured in dollars and cents.

        • By munk-a 2025-11-2122:051 reply

          That is of immense social value - but manual translation services for commercial projects (like application localization) is already dirt cheap to do and automatic casual translation services for consumers would be incredibly difficult to monetize.

          • By carlosjobim 2025-11-2122:341 reply

            I think your perspective might be severely limited. There exists millions of businesses outside of big IT enterprises.

            • By munk-a 2025-11-2123:221 reply

              I will freely admit this - but I have led a localization effort on a mobile game and worked on localization for a desktop application. I am also lucky enough to travel abroad quite a bit and am quite familiar with consumer offerings.

              So I would fairly limit my experience to consumer and medium-sized business uses - I have no experience with large corporate translation efforts (the largest would probably be Ubisoft or the Mouse-Ears company's gaming divisions if you consider them large) and even the small mobile game company I worked at had a budget in the millions range. It certainly hasn't been a focus of my career but I feel comfortable standing by my statement above.

              • By carlosjobim 2025-11-2213:14

                You're only taking about IT stuff, while tourism is one of the largest global industries.

                Not to mention hundreds of other sectors which will benefit from better international communication.

        • By carlosjobim 2025-11-2213:11

          I notice that angry hackers are going nuts with their down votes. Make an argument instead if you have something to say.

          Tourism and travel is one of the worlds largest industries, and companies in that sector can improve their revenue with double digits if they can reach and communicate with more customers. That's real impact, which is worth something, while hacker votes are worth nothing.

    • By digdugdirk 2025-11-2122:051 reply

      Alternate viewpoint - The value of modern AI seems very high. That nobody knows how high, that they still haven't figured out applications, and that the technology and its tools are still far from refined, might be a sign that the technology shouldn't be valued this highly at all

      • By mmooss 2025-11-221:00

        > That nobody knows how high, that they still haven't figured out applications, and that the technology and its tools are still far from refined, might be a sign that the technology shouldn't be valued this highly at all

        That might be true, but it also might be true that it's tremendously valuable. The conditions you identify exist for every new technology; obviously the outcomes vary greatly.

    • By hyperbovine 2025-11-2122:061 reply

      > The value of modern AI seems very high. That nobody knows how high, that they still haven't figured out applications, and that the technology and its tools are still far from refined, is normal for any new technology.

      The same could be said for the internet. But, and I know this will be hard for younger readers to believe, I seem to recall the value proposition of the Internet being more immediately apparent at the time.

      • By mmooss 2025-11-221:041 reply

        From what I've read, people spent a long time looking for the 'killer application'. Google didn't know how to make money off its search engine. Social media didn't exist in any mass form. Internet access on phones, beyond email, didn't exist in any usable way.

        Proprietary, walled garden services, with their own dial-up numbers, such as AOL and CompuServe, were seen as the future. Microsoft thought their similar service (MSN?) was the way forward and didn't integrate the Internet into Windows 95. That was after Netscape's browser was released and (relative to the time, I'm sure) very popular.

        • By acdha 2025-11-221:211 reply

          The value was obvious almost immediately, but it was obscured by flashy get rich quick attempts. Google chose not to make money at first but that was a business decision, not a necessity: people were paying tons of money for ads and referrals years before they were founded.

          That’s part of the difference with AI now: the internet immediately generated significant value almost instantly for relatively modest investments, so there were a ton of small and mid-sized companies who saw almost immediate profits from moving catalog sales or support online, switching software distribution from mailing diskettes to downloads, etc. and some people were able to cut into established markets where the existing companies were slow to change.

          AI is different in two key ways: the first is the extremely high cost, which prevents a lot of the bottom-up growth we saw on the web, but the second is that it’s not a reliable technology like the web was so you can’t safely use it in the most valuable contexts. In the 90s, some people screwed up form validation badly but most people didn’t. Right now, companies would love to replace things like customer service or sales with chatbots but nobody on the market can make a system which is both safe and useful because things like prompt injection require theoretical breakdowns, not just attention to detail.

          • By mmooss 2025-11-228:201 reply

            > The value was obvious almost immediately, but it was obscured by flashy get rich quick attempts. Google chose not to make money at first but that was a business decision, not a necessity: people were paying tons of money for ads and referrals years before they were founded.

            All I can say is, that was the opposite of what I've heard. Did you participate?

            Also, Google was many years after Netscape's IPO, seen as the first SV boom. And what about Windows 95, if the Internet's ROI was so obvious?

            • By acdha 2025-11-2215:361 reply

              There's a lot of variety in the quality of writing from that period. At the time, a lot of “analysts” were doing lazy number-go-up stories rather than the harder work of actually looking at business fundamentals—I remember so many stories which were basically trying to rationalize the greater fool theory—and there was also a tendency to lump all of the internet companies together. Amazon.com was an interesting example of the latter phenomenon where people would talk about them being unprofitable because they were just looking at the total numbers but completely missing the distinction between the dotcoms which were losing money on every sale with no way to close the gap and Amazon, which was expanding rapidly but was profitable in each business segment within a couple years (e.g. books were cash-positive circa 1995) and could go from reporting losses to profits any time they wanted simply by slowing their expansion plans.

              In Google's case, the key thing was that they were out-competing in what was already an established market. Search companies were making money from ads and sales referrals, so the questions were things like marketshare and efficiency rather than the ability to make revenue at all, whereas Netscape struggled with that once Microsoft used their Windows monopoly to set the price for browsers at $0. They tried to sell server software but that was a different market with limited synergy for browsers and there was a ton of competition even if they'd been better at writing software.

              I mention all of that because one thing to remember is that the dotcoms weren't the only game in town. A lot of people focused on them because the IPOs and market valuations were wild by traditional standards but most of the real money and energy was in established businesses moving online since there were clear and immediate benefits from doing so. When the bubble popped, that stuff didn't really change and a ton of people moved from dotcom jobs to traditional companies.

              I worked for a web development company at the time and we were turning away business for years because there were so many companies looking to add a web presence to their existing business. It made quite an interesting contrast to our startup clients who tended to be a lot more focused on stock prices rather than business fundamentals. I remember being on a call with pets.com people who were basically openly stating that they were basically frittering time away waiting for the IPO to make them rich, whereas our customers who were in manufacturing, banking, insurance, etc. were a lot more realistic about working within a budget to do something they would actually turn a profit from.

              Re: Windows 95, the web drove a lot of its success. That was around the time normal people could see a lot of immediate personal benefit from being online–shopping, recipes, stock trading, research, forums, games, dating, porn—and Win95 was the first version of Windows to ship with built-in TCP/IP and a web browser, not to mention being a lot closer to the competition on usability. For a lot of PC users, especially in business, the web was what sold them on the need to pay more to have a GUI, mouse, etc. and while that was possible with Windows 3.1 it really went mainstream around the time Windows 95 came out (Windows NT was too demanding on hardware for most budgets outside of engineering/development).

              • By mmooss 2025-11-232:50

                Thanks for all the detail from someone who was there.

                > completely missing the distinction between the dotcoms which were losing money on every sale with no way to close the gap and Amazon, which was expanding rapidly but was profitable in each business segment within a couple years (e.g. books were cash-positive circa 1995) and could go from reporting losses to profits any time they wanted simply by slowing their expansion plans.

                Great insight. And of course Amazon would raise any funds possible to expand into this new frontier.

                > Win95 was the first version of Windows to ship with built-in TCP/IP and a web browser, not to mention being a lot closer to the competition on usability.

                Per Wikipedia:

                "Windows 95 originally shipped without Internet Explorer, and the default network installation did not include TCP/IP .... At the release date of Windows 95, Internet Explorer 1.0 was available,[48] but only in the Plus! add-on pack for Windows 95, which was a separate product. ...

                Windows 95 OEM Service Release 1 was the first release of Windows to include Internet Explorer (version 2.0) with the OS."

                My point is not to nitpick, but that the Internet's value wasn't obvious to Microsoft at that point.

    • By nitwit005 2025-11-2122:031 reply

      You can have brilliant technology and still go broke.

      The internet was amazingly valuable, but many of the early companies failed. Investing in internet companies was hardly a sure bet.

      • By munk-a 2025-11-2122:09

        There was a recent Bezos talk about the fact that (much like the dot-com) we've overspending on infrastructure that'll bubble and implode but then we'll have all this amazing infra for companies to build off of... but the process of that overspend and implosion is essentially a massive debt erasure - a lot of people are currently propping up this market with their capital and the companies they're propping up will collapse and those obligations liquidated - and that will result in massive society-wide pain. We may end up in a better place for the next generation because of this investment - but if you're a retail investor don't expect your 401k accounts to weather that burst gracefully... and, unlike the boomers, this will largely hit Millenials and Gen Z both of whom are currently under massive financial stress.

    • By nonameiguess 2025-11-2122:051 reply

      Arguably, it's exactly this mindset creating the problem. It's not the value of the technology that matters. It's the value of the companies. If one company was the only one that had a particular valuable technology, then that would matter, but otherwise 90% of them likely end up worthless even if the sector itself doesn't.

      How that washes out on net we'll have to see. I'm not gonna pretend I know more than anyone else. Just keep in mind that a major difference between now and 2000 is companies stay private a lot longer. An IPO forces you to open the books and sustain public scrutiny of the broad investor class. A still-private startup only needs to convince one funder of their value. That inevitably leads to higher variance and a greater risk of failure. That doesn't mean the whole sector is necessarily a bubble, but if it is, it can be sustained a lot longer without us knowing. A small number of people with $50 billion they need to park somewhere and no other obvious options can keep shitty ideas afloat in a way that wouldn't be possible if they had to be subjected to broader exposure. We like to believe people with $50 billion can't be wrong, but the wisdom of crowds always beats the wisdom of individual genius.

      Heck, AI itself taught us that same lesson!

      • By mmooss 2025-11-221:09

        Both are great points.

    • By logsr 2025-11-220:231 reply

      >still haven't figured out applications

      the real answer is that the applications for the military, surveillance, and population control are proven, and the pathways to scale those capacities are clear, so the money will pour in no matter what. the implication is that we had better come up with some more consumer/humanity friendly applications that create comparable value, or that is all we will get.

      • By mmooss 2025-11-221:04

        What are the clear military applications that differ from civilian ones?

    • By redwood 2025-11-2121:454 reply

      The value can be incredibly high... just like the value of the internet was incredibly high.. and it can still be a finanfial bubble. I feel like the people arguing against the bubble perspective are saying look the internet was actually valuable and so too will this.. and that's totally a valid perspective. The bubble is not about whether there's value but about whether or not the market will come down. All of the above can totally happen

      • By worik 2025-11-2122:041 reply

        > The value of modern AI seems very hig

        Very useful, clearly. But valuable? In aggregate it seems clear that it is. But where does that value acrue? It seems to me the value will be thinly spread while the costs are concentrated.

        It does not seem possible that any conceivable business can pay for all the announced plans for developing data centres, nor energy available to power them.

        If AI systems can be developed to be trust worthy enough to act on their own, none so far (?), then I can see where the value could acrue, but as things stand?

        • By mmooss 2025-11-221:072 reply

          > It seems to me the value will be thinly spread while the costs are concentrated.

          Won't the value will be concentrated in the few with the scale to build competitive AIs?

          In a sense, costs are spread thinly across the content creators whose work has been stolen. (But of course, it is indeed incredibly concentrated in building datacenters.)

          • By worik 2025-11-2219:48

            > Won't the value will be concentrated in the few with the scale to build competitive AIs?

            No.

            Open AI and their ilk can sell tokens, but how much business is there in that? Trillions? If not, they're bankrupt.

            Dead man walking. Zombie

            The open and free models are very capable and getting better.

            If there is a breakthrough beyond transformers and neural nets that means trustworthy AI that can be agentic (does not exist, the "trustworthy" part) then it will be exponentially more valuable. But that was as likely in 2020 as in 2030.

            Meanwhile something like 10% of the USA electricity supply is being "committed" to datacenters and no practical plans to supply it

            Meanwhile the Chinese are leaping ahead and in a more community orientated open way. The cognitive dissonance is quite loud for that one!

          • By worik 2025-11-2219:381 reply

            > content creators whose work has been stolen.

            The law is an ass.

            Current IP laws are too restrictive, but scraping public facing websites is not theft even under those crazy laws

            I have no moral objection to the use of Anna's Archive to train models. A good use, if illegal. But I do recogise and condemn the hypocrisy of Meta doing it. Not surprising, just disgusting

            The wasting of bandwidth is annoying, so silly. We should be better organized

            Calling it theft is buying into the mad bad and sad IP legal thinking that has become the dominant paradigm in the West

            • By mmooss 2025-11-232:59

              In a way, I agree with your last sentence. But there is a difference, and that is power.

              As a simplistic hypothesis: The already-powerful and super-wealthy taking all that IP from the small content creators is theft, IMHO. The small content creators who can't afford JSTOR finding some free source for a paper, etc. is democratic, empowering, and enriches our society.

      • By spectralista 2025-11-2211:47

        I worry that it is not a valid perspective and that the bubble dynamics are being driven exactly by this sentiment.

        We are pricing in the hollywood version of AI we don't have as if it is the internet.

        I communicated with people exactly like what I am doing right now in this post on usenet in 1995. Message boards by 1997. The internet bubble wasn't based on some wild virtual reality version of the internet that hadn't been invented yet.

        It is a categorically different process at work here. This bubble is far more insane and speculative since we don't have what we are pricing in. We don't even really know what we are pricing in besides some vague notation of an inevitable "AGI".

      • By pegasus 2025-11-2122:13

        Yep. It seems somewhat inevitable to have a readjustment at some point. Both Web 2.0 (online retail) and AI are (rightfully, I believe) creating a lot of buzz and stimulating a lot of investment. It's all very new and exciting and there is bound to be a lot of hit and miss activity. Once the dust settles, the misguided bets will become more obvious and there will be a culling, just as we had during the dot com bubble.

      • By mmooss 2025-11-221:11

        An essential point.

    • By usrnm 2025-11-2122:051 reply

      Absolutely nothing in your list prevents the AI from being a bubble. The Internet is an absolute marvel of engineering that completely changed the life of the majority of people in the world, and yet it crashed 25 years ago, and crashed hard. Both can be true at the same time.

      • By kergonath 2025-11-2122:26

        Also, video games in the 1980s.

    • By kergonath 2025-11-2122:191 reply

      > To say whether it's a bubble, we need to know the value of the technology.

      Not really. I mean, not only. The value of the web is immense. And yet, the dot-com bubble was indeed a bubble. What matters is the value in the short term compared to the value of the companies in the current context. Even if AI is huge 20 years from now, it can still crash dramatically tomorrow.

      • By tim333 2025-11-2216:03

        I was going to say that. Also the bubble can be in some areas but not in others. I think the proposed data center build out is a bubble as in not economically justified presently, but I think money spent on AI research is reasonable.

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