AI adoption linked to 13% decline in jobs for young U.S. workers: study

2025-08-2814:13443629www.cnbc.com

A Standford study has found evidence that the widespread adoption of generative AI is impacting the job prospects of early career workers.

A Standford study has found evidence that the widespread adoption of generative AI is impacting the job prospects of early career workers.

There is growing evidence that the widespread adoption of generative AI is impacting the job prospects of America's workers, according to a paper released on Tuesday by three Stanford University researchers.

The study analyzed payroll records from millions of American workers, generated by ADP, the largest payroll software firm in the U.S.

The report found "early, large-scale evidence consistent with the hypothesis that the AI revolution is beginning to have a significant and disproportionate impact on entry-level workers in the American labor market."

Most notably, the findings revealed that workers between the ages of 22 and 25 in jobs most exposed to AI — such as customer service, accounting and software development — have seen a 13% decline in employment since 2022.

By contrast, employment for more experienced workers in the same fields, and for workers of all ages in less-exposed occupations such as nursing aides, has stayed steady or grown. Jobs for young health aides, for example, rose faster than their older counterparts.

Front-line production and operations supervisors' roles also showed an increase in employment for young workers, though this growth was smaller than that for workers over the age of 35.

The potential impact of AI on the job market has been a concern across industries and age groups, but the Stanford study appears to show that the results will be far from uniform. 

The study sought to rule out factors that could skew the data, including education level, remote work, outsourced jobs, and broader economic shifts, which could impact hiring decisions.

According to the Stanford study, their findings may explain why national employment growth for young workers has been stagnant, while overall employment has largely remained resilient since the global pandemic, despite recent signs of softening.

Young workers were said to be especially vulnerable because AI can replace "codified knowledge," or "book-learning" that comes from formal education. On the other hand, AI may be less capable of replacing knowledge that comes from years of experience. 

The researchers also noted that not all uses of AI are associated with declines in employment. In occupations where AI complements work and is used to help with efficiency, there have been muted changes in employment rates.

The study — which hasn't been peer-reviewed — appears to show mounting evidence that AI will replace jobs, a topic that has been hotly debated. 

Earlier this month, a Goldman Sachs economist said changes to the American labor market brought on by the arrival of generative AI were already showing up in employment data, particularly in the technology sector and among younger employees. 

He also noted that most companies were yet to deploy artificial intelligence for day-to-day use, meaning that the job market impact had yet to be fully realized.


Read the original article

Comments

  • By Havoc 2025-08-2912:1414 reply

    Not sure what these guys are studying but can tell you in the real world - essentially zero AI rollout in accounting world for anything serious.

    We've got access to some fancy enterprise copilot version, deep research, MS office integration and all that jazz. I use it diligently every day...to make me a summary of today's global news.

    When I try to apply it to actual accounting work. It hallucinates left, right & center on stuff that can't be wrong. Millions and millions off. That's how you get the taxman to kick down your door. Even simple "are these two numbers the same" get false positives so often that it's impossible to trust. So now I've got a review tool that I can't trust the output of? It's like a programming language where the equality (==) symbol has a built in 20% random number generator and you're supposed to write mission critical code with it.

    • By coffeefirst 2025-08-2914:141 reply

      I keep trying to get it to review my personal credit card statements. I have my own budget tracking app that I made, and sometimes there's discrepancies. Resolving this by hand is annoying, and an LM should be able to do it: scrape the PDF, compare the records to mine, find the delta.

      I've tried multiple models over the course of 6 months. Yesterday it told me I made a brilliant observation, but it hasn't managed to successfully pin down a single real anomaly. Once it told me the charges were Starbucks, when I had not been to a Starbucks—it's just that Starbucks is a probable output when analyzing credit card statements.

      And I'm only dealing with a list of 40 records that I can check by hand, with zero consequences if I get it wrong beyond my personal budgeting being off by 1%.

      I can't imagine trusting any business that leans on this for inappropriate jobs.

      • By phkahler 2025-08-2916:022 reply

        >> I keep trying to get it to review my personal credit card statements. I have my own budget tracking app that I made, and sometimes there's discrepancies. Resolving this by hand is annoying, and an LM should be able to do it: scrape the PDF, compare the records to mine, find the delta.

        This is a perfect example of what people don't understand (or on HN keep forgetting). LLMs do NOT follow instructions, they predict the next word in text and spit it out. The process is somewhat random, and certainly does not include an interpreter (executive function?) to execute instructions - even natural language instructions.

        • By coffeefirst 2025-08-2916:111 reply

          Agreed. I keep trying stuff because I feel like I’m missing whatever magic people are talking about.

          So far, I’ve found nothing of value besides natural language search.

          • By balder1991 2025-08-301:151 reply

            Yeah, if you go to a subreddit like ClaudeAI, you convince yourself there’s something you don’t know because they keep telling people it’s all their prompt faults if the LLM isn’t turning them into billionaires.

            But then you read more of the comments and you see it’s really different interpretations from different people. Some “prompt maximalists” believe that perfect prompting is the key to unlocking the model's full potential, and that any failure is a user error. They tend to be the most vocal and create a sense that there's a hidden secret or a "magic formula" you're missing.

            • By Jensson 2025-08-305:251 reply

              Its basically making a stone soup, people wont believe it can be done, but then put a stone in water and boil it, and tell people if you aren't getting a nice soup you aren't doing it right, just put in all these other ingredients that aren't required but really helps and you get this awesome soup!

              Then someone say that isn't stone soup, they just did all the work without the stone! But that is just a stone hater, how can you not see this awesome soup made by the stone?

              • By canonistically 2025-08-3013:17

                I think it's more like lottery winners giving "buy lottery tickets" as financial advice.

                It is clear at this point that any meaning found in LLM outputs is projected there by the user. Some people by virtue of several intertwined factors can get some acceleration out of them, but most can't. It becomes like a football fan convinced that their rituals are essential for the team's victory.

                Add the general very low understanding of machine learning (or even basic formal logic) and people go from a realistic emulation of conversations to magical thinking about having a mind in a box.

                Either that or I am taking crazy pills. Because sometimes it feels like that.

        • By seanmcdirmid 2025-08-311:09

          There are models that are tuned to follow instructions, and it kind of works. In a non deterministic way, like if you had a very unreliable junior that could kind of follow instructions but didn’t have very great attention yet.

    • By cyrialize 2025-08-2913:431 reply

      There's a very fun video about accounting by Dan Toomey [0] that I think really drives home the point that accounting is:

      1) Extremely important

      2) Not that glamorous

      I always think of accountants as the "nerds" of the finance world. I say this lovingly - I think in another life I would have become an accountant. I find it very fascinating. I worked at a company that worked with auditing datasets, so I knew much more about accounting that I would have otherwise.

      Nobody ever wants to listen to accountants because they either are giving you bad news, or telling you the things that you should be doing. No one can deny how important they are, despite how much it seems like everyone wants to get rid of them.

      An accounting story I love is how my old company got a lot of business because of Enron. Part of the reason that Enron was caught was due to their audit fees.

      Their audit fees were reporting that Arthur Andersen was charging for a huge percentage of non-auditing work (audit fees report what percentage was auditing related and not). This was a huge red flag.

      My company was the only one at the time that kept track of audit fees, and so a huge number of people paid to access that data stream.

      If one day I quit programming, maybe I'll get my CPA.

      [0]: https://youtu.be/vL4INHaK-sA?si=jIvFQVtrXU6tjh-1

      • By Havoc 2025-08-2922:32

        Yeah the boring part is definitely true. It is a good path to a reasonably high paycheque with bulletproof job security. To take your Enron example - even when it turned into a smoking crater and all business stopped they still had accountants working on the wreckage years later.

        Very nearly went programming (now do that as a hobby). Still not sure how I feel about that choice, especially around mental stimulation. But if we're about to hit a recession/depression then it's not a bad place to be. The space I'm in has future revenues locked in for 10+ years.

    • By 1vuio0pswjnm7 2025-08-2915:432 reply

      "...can tell you in the real world - essentially zero AI rollout in accounitng world for anything serious."

      The jobs the reseearchers concluded were affected were "unregulated" ones where there are no college education or professional certification requirements, e.g.,

         receptionists
         translators
         software "engineers"
      
      "Not sure what these guys are studying..."

      Apparently, they studied payroll data from ADP on age, job title and headcount together with, who would have guessed, data from an AI company (Anthropic)

      https://digitaleconomy.stanford.edu/publications/canaries-in...

      This study has not been peer-reviewed

      • By 0xdde 2025-08-2915:55

        It should also be noted that there are some pretty big flaws in the analysis. They mention "the distribution of firms using ADP services does not exactly match the distribution of firms across the broader US economy," but make no attempt to adjust their analysis for it. They also drop 30% of the data for which there is no job title recorded. With such a skewed sample, it's hard to tell how the analysis is supposed to generalize.

      • By tracker1 2025-08-2917:57

        This seems to assign a cause without merit other than AI is the buzzword of the day.

        Receptionist jobs down.. this has been the case for a while, and does include some AI, but AVR and general speech recognition and matching has gotten pretty good for a while, I'd say AI is half a step back.

        Translators, maybe AI, but again, speech recognition in general is pretty good and not strictly an AI thing... but I'll give that one credit.

        Software Engineers, maybe it's more about the (I don't even know the right current FAANG acronym anymore) companies that have laid off tens of thousands in the past few years and largely replaced (if at all) them with either contract or h1b workers? Only to grow short term margins on already profitable companies.

    • By toss1 2025-08-2915:04

      Yup, using AI for any serious tax calculation or even advice is a REALLY BAD idea.

      A close relative is a top expert in US Trust & Estate Tax law working at a well-known BigLaw firm. Of course they have substantial AI initiatives, integration with their system, mandatory training, etc.

      She finds tha AI marginally useful for some things, but overall not very much and there are serious errors, particularly the types of errors only a top expert would catch.

      One of the big examples is that in the world of T&E law, there are a lot of mediocre (to be kind) attorneys who claim expertise but are very bad at it (causing a lot of work for the more serious firms and a lot of costs & losses for the intended heirs). The mediocre-minus attorneys of course also write blogs and papers to market themselves, often in greater volume than the top experts. Many of these blogs/papers are seriously WRONG, as in giving the exact opposite of the right advice.

      Everyone here sees where this is going. The AI has zero ability to reason or figure out which parts of its training input are from actual top experts and which are dreck. The AI can not reason, and can not even validly check their 'thinking' against existing tax code (which is massive), or the regulations and rulings (which are orders of magnitude more massive). So, the AI gives advice that is confident, cheerful, and WRONG.

      Worse yet, the LLM's advice is wrong in ways only a top expert would know, and in ways that will massively screw the heirs. But the errors will likely only be discovered decades later, when it is too late to fix.

      Seriously, do NOT use LLMs for tax advice, unless you are also consulting a TOP professional. And skipping the LLM part is best.

      My relative is quite frustrated and annoyed by the whole thing, which should be more helpful with these massive code/regs/rulings, but finds it often more work than just using the standard WestLaw/Lexis legal database searches.

    • By achenet 2025-08-2913:03

      > It's like a programming language where the equality (==) symbol has a built in 20% random number generator and you're supposed to write mission critical code with it.

      <bad joke> Why are we talking about JavaScript in a thread about AI? </bad joke>

    • By bitcuration 2025-08-3016:55

      It's not about using LLM for calculation, it's about automation and agentic. The integration and deployment in enterprise will be a matter of time. Hiring fresh out of school used to be labor and training, but knowing in 5 years the industry will shrink while the senior staff will keep the boat floating aided by AI, the cutoff time is now. There is no need to keep sending young generation to industries that're bound to be automated enmass. And these are in the immediate near term.

      Other industries are yet to see how AI will impact, it may or may not ever. But in some science fields, new graduated PhDs are seen the same hiring freeze. The complete outsourcing of school knowledge to LLM is coming to our life real soon, the only factor not making it faster is the data center and energy, which are being worked on to resolve in a couple years. These are the reason AI is not yet as cheap as search and ready for consumer market. But it's cheap or will be cheaper enough in two years for enterprise at a cost lower than human resource. The answer is obvious when looking at it on a 5 year horizon.

    • By ecshafer 2025-08-2912:491 reply

      There seems to be this dream of Tax AI Software that will just do all of the taxes. But other than using AI as a fancy text search, I don't see it happening for a long long time. LLMs can't do arithmetic or count.

      • By Havoc 2025-08-2913:031 reply

        Yeah - classifying an invoice into building rent or say printer ink it'll have some success. So we'll see some of it at the very bottom end.

        >LLMs can't do arithmetic or count.

        Yes. The fancy copilot stuff does use pandas/python to look at excel files so stuff like add up a table does work sometimes, but the parameters going into the pandas code need to make sense too in the garbage in garbage out sense. The base LLM doesn't seem to understand the grid nature of Excel so it ends up looking at the wrong cells or misunderstands how headings relate to the numbers etc.

        It'll get better but there doesn't seem to be the equivalent of "use LLM to write boilerplate code" in this world.

        • By rwmj 2025-08-2918:041 reply

          We use Concur (SAP? expenses software), and it can scan your paper receipts and fill in the fields for you. I'd say it's about 30% accurate. Occasionally it'll be incredible. But mostly you end up having to manually adjust fields. It even gets categories completely wrong, like classifying a train ticket as a phone bill. All this means you spend a lot of time checking everything. It'd be hard for me to say honestly that it saves any time, and probably it takes a bit more time.

          • By ecshafer 2025-08-2918:301 reply

            Concur might be the worst software I have ever used.

            • By rwmj 2025-08-2921:00

              Ha ha, yes it's bad, but somehow slightly better than the enterprise alternatives.

    • By rogerkirkness 2025-08-2914:59

      It is profoundly bad at accounting. But with a calculator tool, it works okay for math.

    • By tuatoru 2025-08-2921:301 reply

      There are a lot of jobs which don't require meticulous accuracy - coming up with marketing plans, press releases, writing HR policies, reading and summarising reports, etc.

      Even in accounting I am sure you could use AI at times to help write or read your emails or summarise legislation or IRS rulings. Have it drive Excel or your financial systems directly? No, not yet.

      • By canonistically 2025-08-3013:321 reply

        > There are a lot of jobs which don't require meticulous accuracy - coming up with marketing plans, press releases, writing HR policies, reading and summarising reports, etc.

        I'm sorry but you think marketing plans, press releases, HR policies and report summaries do not need to be accurate? What sort of organization do you work with??

        • By tuatoru 2025-08-311:07

          I read news media, and look at advertising. And I occasionally do some investigation. Have you not heard of Gell-Mann amnesia?

    • By vonneumannstan 2025-08-2914:382 reply

      LLMs basically can't do arithmetic directly, trying to get them to do so is a skill issue. Most models can and will happily write and execute code to do that work instead.

      • By Havoc 2025-08-2922:501 reply

        What I described is a setup that DOES have pandas & python access and uses it heavily to figure out the excel files. Which is neat, but the output is still wrong

        • By vonneumannstan 2025-09-0214:34

          I'm sorry, what are you saying exactly? That a model like GPT 5 can't read an excel file and correctly sum rows based on filters? I find that incredibly hard to believe. GPT 4 from 2 years ago could do this with no issue.

      • By giancarlostoro 2025-08-2915:23

        Which drives me a little crazy. Every LLM worth its salt should just... MCP or whatever the arithmetic of any question, I assume the good ones do.

    • By Balgair 2025-08-2915:441 reply

      Aisde: Hey, whats the prompt you're using for a summary of the news events?

      • By Havoc 2025-08-2922:471 reply

        Nothing super sophisticated - the key part is telling it the categories I want. It seems really good at sticking to that out of the box and seems to do 2-3 items for each category.

        ```Summarize today's news stories in concise bullet points focusing on relevance and clarity. Organize the summary into the following sections:

        * World Events: Major global developments and international headlines

        * Geopolitics: Political tensions, alliances or diplomatic events

        * London: Local news and developments specific to London

        * Supply chains: etc ```

        One thing I've had ZERO luck is making it look for forward looking economic indicators. No idea why but it doesn't work at all

        • By Balgair 2025-08-3019:15

          Strange!

          I used to watch the YT channel that was just the Star Wars theme with the yellow wall of text being someone grab of the NYT's war section.

          I've always wanted to do that again but with an Ai summarizing the news and making it Star-Wars-y.

          Thank for the prompts!

    • By sarahflower117 2025-09-0116:07

      [dead]

    • By hmans 2025-08-2920:08

      [dead]

    • By IIAOPSW 2025-08-2913:37

      In fairness, a "20% random number generator" on "mission critical code" is something they literally do at NASA

  • By fibers 2025-08-2814:4612 reply

    The accounting note is not true in the traditional sense. The field in the US is just getting offshored to India/PH/Eastern Europe for better or for worse. There is even a big push to lower the educational requirements to attain licensure in the US (Big 4 partners want more bodies and are destroying the pipeline for US students). Audit quality will continue to suffer and public filers will issue bunk financials if they aren't properly attested to.

    • By raincole 2025-08-292:0225 reply

      It's amusing to see programmers in the US promoting remote work.

      Do those people really believe they're the most intellectually superior to the rest of the world? If a job can be done purely remotely, what stops the employer from hiring someone who lives in a cheaper place?

      • By elevation 2025-08-296:419 reply

        As a US-based developer I do not feel threatened by the "cheap" offshore developers I encounter. I've repeatedly been hired to clean up after offshore developers who:

        * lied about their capabilities/experience to get the job,

        * failed to grok requirements through the language barrier,

        * were unable to fix critical bugs in their own code base,

        * committed buggy chatgpt output verbatim,

        * and could not be held liable because their firm is effectively beyond the reach of the US legal system.

        In a couple of projects I've seen a single US based developer replace an entire offshore team, deliver a superior result, and provide management with a much more responsive communication loop, in 1% of the billable hours. The difference in value is so stark that one client even fired the VP who'd lead the offshoring boondoggle.

        Software talent is simply not as fungible as some MBAs would like to believe.

        • By Cthulhu_ 2025-08-297:273 reply

          I've worked alongside (but never with) offshore developers, often from the big consultancy companies. One thing they tend to do is place one competent developer and a dozen less-so, so that the work gets done by the one but they get paid for a dozen people.

          But I also believe the managers hiring offshore employees are fully aware of this. If they aren't then they're not very good managers and/or have no idea what they're doing.

          The offshore people mainly work on SAP and legacy systems though; it turns out it's very hard to find willing or competent people in Europe that actually want to work on / with SAP. However, foreign workers have less qualms about learning stuff like that, since the money is really good.

          • By rafaelmn 2025-08-2911:46

            Yes this is the agency model here in Croatia. You would get one senior developer covering 2-3 projects and a few junior/mid developers working full time.

            I have a feeling it's not working that well anymore because the people covering those juniors just earn more going to work straight for the client and they have less burden on them. Used to be harder so the agencies had leverage, nowadays even big companies will hire individual B2B contractor.

          • By Buttons840 2025-08-2915:151 reply

            The only management experience I've had was as a team lead at a US-based consulting company. It was really stressful because I felt like I was managing a team that wasn't capable of doing the work. I was expected to spend at least some of my time coding, and was responsible for the overall project. This is the first time it has occurred to me that this might have been intentionally set up to exploit me while maximizing the amount we can charge the client.

            • By elevation 2025-09-014:06

              > this might have been intentionally set up to exploit me while maximizing the amount we can charge the client

              This was the sense I got from a friend's situation: he works for a consulting firm managing a large offshore team billed as "Oracle Experts" who are in reality completely incompetent. (Side note: How would a bunch of young third-world devs go about mastering a niche technology to the expert level?) The offshore team meets their contractual obligation by committing nonsense SLOC everyday that contains vague references to the requirements. But as the quarters roll by, it never actually meets requirements. So my friend learned the only way to deliver is for him to personally implement the solutions while juggling semi-daily meetings with the clients and the offshore team. The client is happy in the end, but it all takes a lot longer than it would he could drop the offshore team entirely.

              In this situation, the value of the offshore team is they make the client believe that 1) their problems can only be solved by a large team and 2) they are paying less for this team than they would otherwise.

          • By red-iron-pine 2025-08-2915:49

            we couldn't find good SAP security folks to save our life at a previous job. 900/hr for consultants.

            regular "line" SAP admins had to be found in Mexico and brought up on TN visas -- still well paid but generally pretty good, doubly so because we had a Mexico City office and could retain the staff even after they rotated back to MX.

        • By CalRobert 2025-08-297:194 reply

          For a counterpoint, I’ve worked with many great engineers in Latin America who are smart, capable, and in the same time zones as the US

          • By antonymoose 2025-08-2910:55

            I’ve worked with awful, stereotypically garbage offshore teams. I’ve worked with quality offshore teams. The difference was money. The quality teams made less than, but nearly as much as an American worker. Maybe not a FAANG guy or a New York / SF worker, but all those small cities in flyover states? They came in 20-30k under, perhaps.

            Language l, cultural, and time barriers still come into play regardless of how good they are, however.

          • By i_am_proteus 2025-08-299:28

            Likewise! Though Latin American engineers also tend to be some of the priciest offshore developers (along with European engineers). Excellent engineers, but there's still some churn from the friction of hiring and maintaining teams overseas.

          • By red-iron-pine 2025-08-2915:531 reply

            As posted above, we had great success with Mexican hires out of Mexico City.

            General perception was the universities there produced qualified graduates who were not paper tigers (or didn't lie about creds).

            Rates for them were pretty good, and we had better alignment with timezones and holidays.

            Reasonably good alignment in terms of legal and HR issues -- easier to enforce than, like, Bangladesh

            The NAFTA / USMCA / whatever its called now Visa made it easy for them to come across the border for a few years as well. Pay bump for a while plus a chance to work in HQ or the IT office directly, make fat stacks, and then rotate back to MX and buy a nice house. The Mexico City PMs were also instrumental for bridging the language gap when running projects in other LATAM countries.

            Trump's ICE might be the end of that approach tho

            • By CalRobert 2025-08-3014:31

              Maybe it makes sense to start sending Americans to CDMX... It's a city I'd love to spend some time in.

          • By nsxwolf 2025-08-2914:20

            We find it incredibly hard to hire these people. It turns out a lot of US companies are also interested in smart, capable, cheap engineers in Central Time Zone.

        • By jajko 2025-08-297:06

          We all had similar experience(s). But if you have been around long enough you will experience also highly competent and sometimes outright brilliant folks who run circles around most of us. A bit less common in India than say eastern Europe, but thats about it.

          Anyway highly competent and experienced folks will always thrive regardless of environment. Its the quiet rest that should be worried from multiple angles.

        • By throwaway48476 2025-08-296:571 reply

          That's not the talent not being fungible but the trust and accountability not being fungible. Which is a structural issue and unlikely to be resolved. I suspect it's more profitable for a lot of VPs for offshore labor to be as inefficient as possible.

          • By Imustaskforhelp 2025-08-2911:00

            Exactly, its an incentives issue (see my comment as I talk about it in detail there)

        • By tayo42 2025-08-296:581 reply

          More or less my experience too.

          But at the same time, I doubt there is anything special about me or my US born coworkers. We aren't superior just because of the continent we live in. But offshore work is almost as a rule terrible quality done by people that are frustrating to work with. It doesn't make sense

          • By FpUser 2025-08-298:00

            This experience most likely because dealing with offshore software farms. Those are the same shit as their western counterparts and even worse because of language and logistics. On an individual scale however one can for example easily find great developers in Eastern Europe, and former USSR countries that do amazing job and for very attractive price. Just not dirt cheap.

            And yes. There is nothing special about North America as far as quality of software developers in general. Mostly you get average buzzword indoctrinated not so great people with some amazing expectation salary wise.

        • By red-iron-pine 2025-08-2915:47

          > and could not be held liable because their firm is effectively beyond the reach of the US legal system.

          this is a big one. last F500 I was at dropped Tata for several internal support teams due to belief that they were messing with proprietary code and/or had screwed things up so badly they warranted a lawsuit -- but had no legal levers to chase them for damages.

          ditto for the one-off programmer who sexually harasses people while remote -- how does a remote worker sue, or get sued, and under what law?

          or finance / tax -- who pays the payroll tax?

        • By strken 2025-08-2914:20

          People expect that they can pay 0.05x in the Philippines or India, or 0.1x in Poland or Estonia, when that's just not going to happen. I've heard a few people say the multiplier starts at something like 0.4x or more for equivalent talent.

          Since that comes with all the disadvantages and risks you'd expect from splitting your team across two countries and operating in a market you don't understand, at that price point a US company should probably start thinking about spinning up a cheaper team in, I dunno, Dallas rather than offshoring.

        • By Imustaskforhelp 2025-08-2910:59

          Firstly, I want to say that we are "cheap" because things are dirt cheap here.

          Now, I am not a software developer but in high school, but I have my brother/cousins working in the software dev industry and here are my thoughts.

          >language barrier: I genuinely don't know how incompetent developers you can hire, I mean sure if you hire extremely shitty developers but even that's rare.

          Most people here are comfortable enough with english, in the sense that literally anyone can speak english & mostly get the point across. Yes, I have heard of some misarrangements but I don't think that its really much of an issue.

          Now some outsourcing companies are mass recruiters who recruit tech from Cs colleges where noone recruited them (Tata consultancy services, infosys?) and the thing with them is that they don't even pay the mediocre expectations of a developer even in INDIA, they are basically exploiting junior developers and are compared with govt. insitutions in my country given how slow they are.

          My brother works in a decent Consultancy services but he says that there are a lot of inefficiencies in the system.

          He worked on a project and we estimated and he got 1% or less than 1% of the work that he MOSTLY did. and so my brother has way more incentive to freelance and get a "remote job" not consultancy.

          I think that you confused yourself with remote job and consultancy part. Remote jobs hiring / freelancing indians is still cheaper than a consultancy imo who are parasites on the developers.

          My brother works in a consultancy right now because the job market is shitty and he has gotten offers 4x his current salary from countries like switzerland and america. Yet, my family doesn't want him to do the 4x income work because he is already working a job and they don't want him to burn out

          And they don't want him to leave the job because its "safe", you can't trust these startups etc. given the volatile nature and if they fail, then whoops the job market is really messed up right now, even in India and also arrange marriage is a huge thing and the girl's family usually checks the company that the boy works in and they usually get fishy if its remote job (and I mean, for good reason)

          Also trust me some indians can definitely work in american timezones too but that is a little tough. But I mean, we are okay if you might call us once or twice late at night when its day in america and you have something really urgent. Atleast I am okay with that.

          And you could pay 2x the salary the normal indian dev gets and I feel like even that would be less than an american dev. This can really filter some devs to get those with seniority or good projects.

          Its a problem of incentives for consultancies (which is what you seem to hate) and maybe that's a bit fair given how much inefficiencies I see in that system. Just remote hire directly (I suppose)

        • By malthaus 2025-08-297:282 reply

          you're delusional. of course if you take the cheapest possible offshore workers you get terrible results when compared to an experienced engineer in a developed country.

          but it's a bit like ikea: if you buy their cheapest stuff it will fall apart after a few months but their "expensive" lines are still far cheaper than the competition but the same quality.

          you might think you're a solid mahogany table but at the end of the day you're probably the same table as being sold at ikea, just more expensive

          • By brianwawok 2025-08-2911:52

            GitHub copilot already replaces 50% of what offshore talent could do. Can’t imagine someone spinning up an offshore dev hut instead of buying more AI.

          • By FpUser 2025-08-297:56

            Exactly my experience.

      • By jedberg 2025-08-294:0813 reply

        > what stops the employer from hiring someone who lives in a cheaper place?

        I've worked with remote workers from around the world. Let me preface by saying there are of course exceptions but:

        What I've found is that most often Americans exhibit self-starting and creativity. What I mean by that is non-us workers are great if you give them a specific task, even a really hard task.

        But if you give them a nebulous problem, or worse, a business outcome, they tend to perform much more poorly. And I rarely see non-americans say something like "I think our customers would like it if we added X to the product, can I work on that?".

        I don't think it's because Americans are better at this -- I think it's cultural. America has a much higher risk tolerance than the rest of the world. Failing is considered a good thing in the USA. And the USA is much more entrepreneurial than the rest of the world.

        These two things combined create a culture difference that makes a business difference.

        Additionally, what I've found is that the exceptions tend to move here because their risk taking is much more acceptable here (or they are risk takers willing to move across the world, hard to say which way the causation goes).

        • By bruce511 2025-08-294:552 reply

          >> What I've found is that only Americans exhibit self-starting and creativity.

          I'm going to counterpoint somewhat. I think those attributes are evenly spread into all countries, but equally I think they are uncommon in all countries.

          I don't live in the US. I have traveled there and elsewhere. I would agree that there are lots of cultural differences between places, even places as nominally similar as say the UK, Australia and the US.

          Of course who you interact with in various places matters. If you go to India and visit a remote-programming-company you'll meet a specific kind of person, one well suited to providing the services they offer.

          Dig a bit deeper elsewhere and you'll find some very bright, very creative, engineers in every culture. In some cases those folk are doing remote work for US companies. In a few cases they're building the software (creatively and all) that the US company is selling.

          In countries that are isolated for one or other reason creativity thrives. Israel, South Africa, Russia, all have (or had) exceptional engineering abilities developed because international support was withheld.

          Yes, it is hard to find good talent. It is hard to develop and nurture it. But it exists everywhere. And more and more I'm seeing folks outside the US take American jobs, precisely because American workers are so keen to explain how portable those jobs are.

          I understand that the American psyche is built on exceptionalism. And that does exist in some areas. But unfortunately it also acts as a filter blinding you to both exceptionalism elsewhere and inferiority at home. By the time you realise someone else has the edge, it's too late. We've seen this in industry after industry. Programing is no different.

          I understand also that shooting the messenger is easier than absorbing the message. Let the down-voting begin.

          • By jedberg 2025-08-295:275 reply

            > I think those attributes are evenly spread into all countries, but equally I think they are uncommon in all countries.

            The data does not support your statement. From a startup report just four days ago:

            The United States alone generates 46.6% of all startup activity worldwide, nearly half of the global total. Together with China (9.2%), the United Kingdom (5.6%), and India (5%), these four countries account for 66.4% of the absolute global startup activity.

            I will give you that Israel in particular has a strong risk taking culture, as does Singapore and Estonia. And there are a lot of startups coming out of there.

            But overall the US has way more risk taking.

            And like I said at the very beginning, there are of course exceptions. Yes, every culture has some brilliant risk takers. But at least until recently, many of them came to the USA after they got successful.

            • By empiko 2025-08-296:541 reply

              There is startup activity in the US because there is enough capital to fund it. Getting funding for a startup even in pretty rich countries in EU is more difficult by an order of magnitude.

              • By nxm 2025-08-298:05

                It’s not just funding but also bankruptcy laws are written in a way that encourages entrepreneurship, while not being overburdened by regulations

            • By watwut 2025-08-295:46

              Creativity and startup are two different things. Many of those startups are not creative in any way. And conversely being creative does not imply creating a company. This is about how capital work.

              America is unique in way it businessmen tend to think that creating a business is the only way to be creative.

              And incidentally, post was about employee creativity.

            • By pkolaczk 2025-08-2910:44

              It's not so much about risk taking as about getting proper funding and overcoming the bureaucracy barriers. E.g. Poland itself has very low startup rates, but somehow Poles which go to USA create things like OpenAI ;)

            • By bruce511 2025-08-2912:33

              um, So VC funded startups are the very definition of "not risky". Basically you'll do something as long as someone else ponies up a big pile of cash to pay for it. Pretty much any other business model, where you build with your own time, or money, capital is much more risky.

              Equally I don't think this is an argument for American exceptionalism (which is the point under discussion.)

            • By closewith 2025-08-298:271 reply

              It's interesting that your metrics for creativity and risk taking are financial. I think you should reflect on that.

              • By Imustaskforhelp 2025-08-2911:092 reply

                This is the best HN comment I have ever seen. So elegant. I am going to use, "I think you should reflect on that" line from now on. This line is just pleasant to me, seems professional and actually inviting to a discussion while also showcasing the hidden irony of the original case that you pointed out.

                This is art, mr white!

                • By closewith 2025-08-2913:00

                  I'm actually a mirror salesperson.

                • By viridian 2025-08-2912:541 reply

                  I would advise against it, personally. Its a passive aggressive, thought terminating cliche that might as well be saying "I know better than you".

                  • By closewith 2025-08-2913:031 reply

                    > Its a passive aggressive,

                    I think it's read as passive aggressive when people realise they've been holding a silly opinion don't want to admit it.

                    > thought terminating cliche

                    The irony.

                    > that might as well be saying "I know better than you".

                    Sometimes people do know better than you. I think I should reflect on that.

                    • By viridian 2025-08-2913:461 reply

                      You've made my case for me, if by "I think I should reflect on that", you do in fact mean "[you've] been holding a silly opinion don't want to admit it".

                      The former is a passive-aggressive way to say the latter. I aim to, and encourage others to say what they mean.

                      • By closewith 2025-08-2913:551 reply

                        All jokes aside, the commenter I initially replied to really should reflect on why their concept of creativity and risk tolerance is so linked with financial outcomes, because that is a very particular association and it maybe informs their worldwide more than they may realise.

                        > The former is a passive-aggressive way to say the latter. I aim to, and encourage others to say what they mean.

                        I suppose you don't see the irony?

                        • By viridian 2025-08-2914:391 reply

                          While I wouldn't prescribe someone to sit down and think about why they tie the two together, you are probably right that it's reflective of their greater worldview(s). I wouldn't prescribe it because odds are, they already have reflected on it quite a bit. One thing I've really taken away recently reading about the historic lives of ordinary immigrants to early America, is that modern peoples are incredibly good at constantly reflecting and adapting their models of self, and of belief. I believe this constant reshaping is probably the main reason echo chambers are so effective, and dangerous.

                          Re: the irony, I don't see it, but I'm happy to hear your explanation of it. For what it's worth, my own interpretation of my words isn't passive aggressive, it's (charitably) pretty direct, or even (less charitably) plain old aggressive-aggressive.

                          • By Imustaskforhelp 2025-08-2915:06

                            Okay,so uhh, I think it was my comment where you said that it looks passive agressive and so I just read it again and yeah it does.

                            So yeah thanks, in the sense that I am not going to say this phrase now realizing it, Not sure how I even found it professional, man I am cringing.

                            But maybe the context OP used that was really maybe a good roast and I liked the use of this word in that context but yeah good point.

                            For what its worth, I also don't see the irony. And I also didn't see that it was passive agressive untill you told it and then I saw it..., So uh yeah.

          • By philipallstar 2025-08-296:25

            > Israel, South Africa, Russia, all have (or had) exceptional engineering abilities developed because international support was withheld.

            I think if you add the US to the list this theory disappears. It's more the frontier/self reliant/entrepreneurial attitude that I think makes the difference.

        • By laughing_man 2025-08-294:561 reply

          >What I've found is that only Americans exhibit self-starting and creativity.

          Isn't that mostly a function of how incentives are aligned? I had a job with a lot of outsourcing to India. The Indians were given specific bits of code to write. They didn't even know how their code fit into the application.

          Their entire incentive structure was geared toward getting them to write those bits of code as quickly as possible, finish, and take another task. There just wasn't any room for "self-starting and creativity".

          I have a feeling if the entire application had been moved to India things would have been different.

          • By jedberg 2025-08-295:313 reply

            It could be. But I worked at companies where we had full time employees all around the world, all of whom had full access to the same information the rest of us had. And I still saw this behavior generally. There were of course exceptions.

            Interestingly the biggest exceptions were ones that had at some point lived and worked in the USA, and then had returned to their home country for some reason or another.

            > I have a feeling if the entire application had been moved to India things would have been different.

            I had direct experience with this. We had an office of full time employees in India tasked with a project, but I still had to hand hold them through most of the key decisions (which I didn't have to do with the US based teams nearly as much).

            • By closewith 2025-08-298:311 reply

              I think what you saw is more related to work/life balance than any innate difference in people. That's certainly my experience.

              Employment is central to American's identity in a way that's almost considered perverse elsewhere.

              • By Imustaskforhelp 2025-08-2911:38

                Exactly!!

                Its also like, no I don't think a family is supposed to be where some guy on the top extracts all the money and then trickes it down and I get %'s of what I did. This doesn't sound like a family.

                Someone create a blog post on this phenomenon as to me, this seems like americans having an parasocial bond with companies (I vaguely remember the stripe CEO had said my name once or something along that lines, a blog post and it felt parasocial man)

                I mean, I just feel like americans complaining about indians devs are complaining about the wrong things, like maybe I don't get them but its not true as to what they are saying. I just don't get it man.

                I have seen Indian govt jobs to be much more like american private jobs in the sense that employment becomes central to their identity and there is this sense of tightknit community for the most part and maybe that has to do with the fact that the govt isn't usually exploiting its own workers and the tight knit sense of community comes from helping really poor children in teaching, building roads that my uncle flexes on me that I built this road or this college and showing me the absolute chad he sometimes is.

            • By spwa4 2025-08-299:331 reply

              Cultural differences do exist. I don't understand why this isn't a major problem, because it's behavior I've seen again and again and again: Indians seem terrified of showing any initiative whatsoever (including asking), any own contribution, and do what you've asked them and only what you've asked them. They are also terrified of being accused of doing nothing. This goes to extremes, such as purposefully taking a very long time to finish a simple task simply because they haven't gotten a new one, don't dare ask for one, have to be seen to be working, and can't come up with anything themselves.

              You want a long list of simple tasks finished? Excellent workers. An endless ticket queue with simple problems? There's a few issues with them not escalating real problems, but ok.

              You want an application developed and a lot of problems solved? Stay away.

              • By Imustaskforhelp 2025-08-2911:291 reply

                Well when you are paid peanuts, you do the bare minimum.

                And an incentives issue.

                Some software engineers work and they do the job and if they finish the work early, the company just start having more expectations of them WHILE PAYING THE SAME. So you are effectively catered if you don't work or take more to do the same atleast in the consultancy or similar business in India.

                I feel like a lot of Indians especially software devs don't have this allegiance to a company where we consider a company to be our "family", and I find it really fair. My cousins always tell me that a company extracts 10x more value from you than what they give you back. Not sure how much of that is true in US but some developers are literally exploited in India, they couldn't care less about an application developed if they are this stuck state of limbo where they won't get fired if they do shitty work but they won't really get higher up the ladder either and even if they do the good work, it would take years for the company to notice it and its better to just change companies for that raise.

                An incentive issue at its finest which could and is fixed by many people, just because you used a consultancy that sucked or had people that sucked doesn't make us all shitty software devs man.

                Its Not a cultural issue, It really offended me as by coating us all in this "culture", you said somethings which are clearly offending.

                Maybe I can get the point that maybe software attracts a lot of shy people and so they are shy towards taking the first initiative but that's not a cultural issue.

                The culture of our school depends, most schools don't incentivize extracurricular activities that much so we don't do it and that's why we don't usually take initiative, because boom everything matters what you wrote in 3 hours

                The incentive system is flawed but maybe I have hope, I mean to be honest, Things aren't that better anywhere else in the world too. I just feel like either the devs I have met irl are absolutely really good from what I've seen or your guys experience hasn't been that good but it isn't that big of a difference and I feel like things are a little exaggerated when I come to such forums.

                • By spwa4 2025-08-2913:20

                  I have often experienced that it isn't a problem of pay or of incentives. They're terrified of asking for something to do for example. As in scared, and not a little bit. Not underpaid.

                  I'm not claiming they're well-paid, but I don't think this is the issue, or at least not the primary issue.

            • By rompic 2025-08-299:07

              IBM / Hofstede has a lot of studies on this.

        • By DecoySalamander 2025-08-2910:571 reply

          > And I rarely see non-americans say something like "I think our customers would like it if we added X to the product, can I work on that?".

          The most crucial difference in this context is that Americans are employed directly by the company, while foreign workers are behind several layers of management belonging to several companies. While you can walk around and deliver elevator pitches to higher-ups, foreign workers must track their time spent on tasks down to the minute in Jira. Then, they must find a manager who would like to pitch a feature to a manager who would pitch a feature to a manager in the U.S.

          • By trinix912 2025-08-2913:45

            Exactly. I used to work in such a situation for a few years (consulting company hiring EE devs). I tried suggesting things, building PoC’s, pitching it to the manager, all was met with just “we’re on a limited budget, so stick with what we’ve arranged.”

            Had I built the things anyway it wouldn’t be met with praise, but looked down upon for bypassing the manager (or I just wouldn’t get paid for those hours).

            Many big corporations tend to be similar even when you’re employed directly.

            You can’t truly be creative when you’re stuck 7 layers of mgmt deep. You also have to understand that for those who’ve only worked in such situations, “risking” their position at a foreign company just to appear smart doesn’t seem like a good idea, so they don’t do it.

        • By eastbound 2025-08-296:08

          > I don't think it's because Americans are better at this -- I think it's cultural.

          My experience is ANY delegation incurs a big loss in agency. I want to create a startup -> my employees are much less invested than I am. My remote (French) employees are even less invested. My Ukrainian employees are completely passive and I fired them. The more the distance, the less invested, the more passive.

          It’s tempting to attribute this to your country’s qualities, but my experience is every country is a mixed bag.

        • By Cthulhu_ 2025-08-297:301 reply

          While on the one side I think you have a point, on the other there's different dynamics in place as well; you're comparing offshore workers to internal employees. An offshore worker gets hired to do a job for another company, an internal employee is part of the company.

          That is, an external worker (and I'm a consultant, I know) gets paid per hour, if the company goes under for whatever reason they just move on to the next assignment, while an internal employee leans more on their job.

          Anyway that's just a theory. I'm a "consultant" which is just a fancy word for a temp / hired hand, and I'm somewhere in the middle in that I will think along with the company and propose improvements, but at the same time have lower risk and much less attachment to the companies I work for.

          I don't think it's cultural per se. As an extreme example, the CEOs of Google and Microsoft were both born and raised in India.

          • By jedberg 2025-08-297:42

            > An offshore worker gets hired to do a job for another company, an internal employee is part of the company.

            I've experienced both. Working with offshore employees and full time employees who happened to be in foreign countries. It was a similar experience with both, the exception being the ones that had previously lived and worked in the US.

            > I don't think it's cultural per se. As an extreme example, the CEOs of Google and Microsoft were both born and raised in India.

            Sundar Pichai moved to the US when he was in college. His entire working career and a bunch of his schooling was in the US.

            Satya Nadella did the same.

            As I said in my original reply, the ones who are more entrepreneurial or successful tend to move to the US (or at least used to).

        • By nurettin 2025-08-295:011 reply

          I've worked with experts from around the world. After a certain level of competitiveness they are all pretty much the same. Once you become "pals" they all start suggesting improvements. Maybe you socialize better with americans.

          • By jedberg 2025-08-295:322 reply

            Sure, at the highest levels you'll find these traits everywhere. But there is a reason these folks have ascended to the highest levels. What I'm saying is that you find it far more often in junior people in the USA.

            • By hdgvhicv 2025-08-2910:051 reply

              I gif it far more often in UK juniors, US juniors tend to be more concerned with moving to their next job than doing the current one.

              Maybe we just have different cultural expectations.

              • By yonaguska 2025-08-2910:46

                US juniors are getting paid a lot more at their second job.

            • By closewith 2025-08-298:32

              No, you found it in your self-selecting experience.

        • By anal_reactor 2025-08-296:32

          I work for an American company. 90% of my job is covering my ass because if I push for a novel idea and it fails, it's going to be a huge problem.

        • By watwut 2025-08-295:441 reply

          > America has a much higher risk tolerance than the rest of the world.

          America is one of the most risk averse countries in the world, seriously. Americans are constantly scared - of loosing job, of physical injury, of everything and everywhere.

          > Failing is considered a good thing in the USA

          America punishes failure pretty hard. Some peoples failures are ignored, but most peoples failures are punished in pretty significant ways.

          • By closewith 2025-08-298:33

            Yes, only a tiny minority of palatable failures is allowed in the US. For everything else, society will discard you like rubbish.

        • By KronisLV 2025-08-296:57

          > Failing is considered a good thing in the USA. And the USA is much more entrepreneurial than the rest of the world.

          I wonder how many devs have been sacked for going out of their way and making stuff nobody in business asked for, or perhaps that broke something along the way and ended up being a net negative: in the EU vs US and other parts of the world.

          Might be loosely related to how much money the company has to burn and the nature of their work (e.g. probably not looked well upon in consulting where you have to convince clients to pay for whatever you've made), as well as how popular each type of work is in each part of the world.

        • By guappa 2025-08-2911:15

          In my own experience (EU company, acquired by USA) USA developers are good at burning money, less good at actually delivering a reliable product.

          But it can be due to terrible management hiring terribly.

        • By charlieyu1 2025-08-298:29

          I don't know about others but for me, I don't really care about business outcome. Why should I? It's the manager or the business side's job.

        • By biztos 2025-08-294:23

          > non-us workers are great if you give them a specific task, even a really hard task

          ...which is a lot like the LLMs! Maybe the skillset required to manage non-US workers is the same as for managing ChatGPT 6o, but the latter scales better.

        • By bubblyworld 2025-08-295:483 reply

          Only Americans exhibit creativity and drive? What nationalistic nonsense is this? Step outside of your bubble lol.

          • By jedberg 2025-08-295:503 reply

            That's not at all what I said. I said I see it far more often in Americans than other cultures. And I have stepped out of my bubble many times. I've worked with a lot of people in a lot of countries.

            They agree with me.

            • By bubblyworld 2025-08-296:59

              > What I mean by that is non-us workers are great if you give them a specific task, even a really hard task. But if you give them a nebulous problem, or worse, a business outcome, they tend to perform much more poorly.

              I mean come on, how do you expect people to interpret this paragraph? I can only assume you are trolling, so I'm done here.

            • By hdgvhicv 2025-08-2910:08

              So does ChatGPT. Have fun changing French fries into salad.

            • By closewith 2025-08-298:34

              And now you're talking to people who don't agree with you. Maybe you hadn't punctured your bubble as much as you believe.

          • By DecoySalamander 2025-08-2911:00

            Americans are truly exceptional people. Or, at least, that's what I learned in American-made training on cultural differences. The funniest part is that the training touched on nationalism. You see, nationalism is a negative quality exhibited by people in other countries. Americans have a positive version of that: patriotism.

          • By siva7 2025-08-296:021 reply

            It's easy to criticize that part but his last sentence is spot on: the creative it minds from those countries tend to migrate to places that match their entrepreneurial personality better and those usually won't be China or India but rather somewhere in America or even Europe.

            • By Moru 2025-08-298:12

              They go where they are told it's easier to get money for their ideas. This has long been the US. However it looks like it is changing in some fields lately.

      • By sensanaty 2025-08-297:391 reply

        I'm one of those offshore people that live in a cheaper place and works remotely for a US co.

        The majority of people in the company are still in the US, and even for the East coast, the timezones are just annoying to work around sometimes. Either I need to do late days, or they have to do uber early mornings/SUPER late days, don't even get me started on West coast where the hours basically never match. And I'm in the closest timezone I can be for the US.

        And there's also a cultural aspect to it. I simply work differently to how the US bosses expect, because my employer has to respect worker's rights if they want to hire people in the EU unless they hire them as contractors (they still have many protections in that case though). I clock off at exactly 17:00, I never answer messages outside working hours, I don't do overtime or anything resembling it etc. And yes, they don't pay me the same as I would in the US, but it's really not that much lower, plus life is just cheaper, even here in the Netherlands. I get paid less relatively, but from what I can tell other that the people getting paid obscene amounts, my quality of life is higher than most of my US counterparts

        I've noticed my US colleagues are much more willing to waste away their lives for their employer as well, even if there's no real expectation for them to do so, and the business obviously prefers those kind of employees over the ones like me.

        So there's still plenty of reasons to keep hiring US-based devs, from cultural to logistical. Maybe you guys should work on getting some actual worker protections first, though...

        • By weatherlite 2025-08-2912:181 reply

          > but it's really not that much lower, plus life is just cheaper, even here in the Netherlands.

          Lived in the NL for 4 years, it was many things - cheap wasn't one of them. With the enormous taxes , high rents and mediocre salaries I don't think you can make the case it's somehow cheaper than the U.S unless you specifically mean Manhattan and Silicon Valley.

          • By sensanaty 2025-08-2917:59

            There's a reason I included that "even", because indeed NL is not cheap. However if you're not in SV or NYC, you're also not making the ludicrous half-a-million figures that people often talk about as well. Myself having lived in NYC, I can tell you right now QoL is dramatically higher in NL even if I'm earning a lot less cash. Also, it definitely is cheaper than those cities, even if you're in Amsterdam (and cities like Utrecht or Den Haag are a lot cheaper than Amsterdam too).

            Around the 50-60k Euro mark is a VERY decent and comfortable living in the Netherlands and you'll be hard pressed to find companies not paying that much for medior roles, yet alone senior ones. Plus you have the bigger companies like Adyen, Booking, ASML etc. plus remote US companies that pay ~100-125k for Medior+ talent (I know this as I literally today, a mere 4 hours ago got an offer letter from one of the mentioned companies as a SWE II). The taxes only really start hurting in the 70k-90k region, but since it's progressively taxed it's still not the end of the world. Also if you work for one of the aforementioned big boys then you're probably going to be in the party bracket (literally what it's called :p) where the sting is lessened, stupidly enough.

            Remember, average salary in NL is around 40k-45k EUR. If anyone above a medior level manages to work at a tech-adjacent company as is getting paid less than that, it's time to move jobs because the market has shifted up massively as of late in terms of wages, at least anecdotally from what I can see.

            And most importantly, money isn't everything which is so often missed in these discussions talking about EU vs US comp. Most importantly of all is that I never have to worry about healthcare costs should anything happen to me or my loved ones that don't have the privilege of being sponsored by a megacorp, and very importantly I have job security and a permanent contract that makes it damned hard to get rid of me.

            Now things aren't perfect here obviously, train costs are astronomical, the tax brackets are absurd (the aforementioned party bracket being an absolute farce), the healthcare system while great can be very annoying to navigate alone, and indeed rent in the private sector and housing costs in general is completely detached from reality... But compared to anywhere in the US I've ever lived, especially if we zoom out a bit and look at it from a lens of someone not in tech and not making FAANG-level money? I'll take Utrecht 100 times out of 10, thank you very much.

      • By jmspring 2025-08-292:411 reply

        As some have said, it's not about being superior. Common language, background, maybe overlaps in education, and avoiding cultures like those at Indian offshore companies where there is a lot of churn, maybe 1 Sr person you "hired" really farming the work out to multiple Jr people.

        Timezone overlap is also a big one.

        • By hn_throwaway_99 2025-08-292:471 reply

          I agree with what you've written, but I've worked with colleagues in South America and Eastern Europe where none of those problems existed: folks spoke perfect English, people were incredibly motivated to do a good job, and they spoke up proactively when problems arose.

          I have had issues with Indian outsourcers like you say (lots of churn, time zone hell, a culture of pretending everything is fine until release day and then saying "sorry, nothing works", etc.), but it's a bigger world now, and there are still lots of folks making half of US dev salaries where none of these problems exist.

          • By DrewADesign 2025-08-295:12

            My intuition says there are some stylistic differences. It seems like some development cultures somewhat have better results with more rigid computer engineering sort of tasks with high granularity requirements and more straightforward goals, even if the tasks are really hard, deeply technical and the goals are difficult. I think some are better at the more nebulous sort of tasks with a lot of flexibility. Both are really useful mindsets that seem much less useful if improperly applied.

            Given, outsourcing is probably going to be hit-or-miss regardless of who’s doing it.

      • By Aurornis 2025-08-293:011 reply

        It’s amusing to see these comments as if American tech companies don’t already have offices all over the world.

        Even a mid-size tech company I worked for had over a dozen small offices around the world to collect as many qualified developers as they could. They had some remote work too.

        Still hired a lot of Americans. Thinking that remote work will be the end of American workers has been the driving force behind outsourcing pushes for decades, but it hasn’t worked that way.

        • By fakedang 2025-08-293:241 reply

          > Still hired a lot of Americans. Thinking that remote work will be the end of American workers has been the driving force behind outsourcing pushes for decades, but it hasn’t worked that way.

          The difference is that back then the project lead could explore outsourcing certain roles to India, EE and LatAm, while today the VP can explore outsourcing the project lead roles to those countries. These countries have built up their own native tech talent, many of whom already bring more to the table than the typical American - they work longer hours, for cheaper, and often bring a lot more experience. I've seen companies who only run sales teams with Americans, with the rest of the workforce being shipped out.

          Notably, India already has nearly 2000 GCCs (Global Capability Centers, mega complexes of offices for foreign companies) set up, with that number only projected to increase as more mid-market firms expand. While many of them are just back offices, some of them, like Walmart's GCC, is the entire tech division - the CTO remains in the US, while the entire software team is in India. While earlier the Indian team would have had to adjust their timings to USA's, now quite a few US-based employees have had to adjust their timings to India's.

          • By jimbokun 2025-08-294:12

            All of that has been true for decades, except maybe the specific numbers.

      • By Tade0 2025-08-297:05

        As an outsider I think Americans still have the upper hand in, for lack of a better term, work ethic.

        A lot of that stems from a lack of job security. Stuff like suddenly being locked out of your work email/slack or being escorted out of company premises is largely unheard of in the rest of the world.

        As a point of comparison: I'm a contractor based in a popular outsourcing destination. My contract is extended well over a month before it expires and I would need to do something particularly harmful to be let go just like that, as our client values continuity of services and will hold the agency accountable should that suffer.

        Over here if a job listing mentions "US client" it typically means considerably more work for considerably more pay. Some go for that, others opt for more relaxed roles. I can't imagine having US jobs as the only option.

      • By deanmoriarty 2025-08-292:105 reply

        You’ll get downvoted but in my experience, which may not be representative of the entire population, this is true.

        A mid-size US tech company I know well went fully remote after a lot of insistence from the workforce, prior to the pandemic they were fully in office.

        Soon enough they started hiring remotely from EU, and now the vast majority of their technical folks are from there. The only US workers remaining are mostly GTM/sales. I personally heard the founder saying “why should we pay US comp when we can get extremely good talent in EU for less than half the cost”. EU workers, on average, also tend to not switch job as frequently, so that’s a further advantage for the company.

        Once you adapt to remote-only, you can scoop some amazing talent in Poland/Ukraine/Serbia/etc for $50k a year.

        • By raincole 2025-08-292:303 reply

          I think most programmers in the US simply don't realize how much they earn compared to the rest of the world.

          I'm not talking about rural Chinese villages whose name you can't pronounce. Or the stereotypical Indian call centers. I'm talking about highly educated programmers who can communicate fluently in English, in cities like Beijing or Munich. If people in SV know how (relatively) little their counterparts make in these places, they'd be much more opposed to remote work.

          And that was before LLM. Today practically the entire planet can write passable English.

          • By oefrha 2025-08-293:551 reply

            Yeah, for $100k or slightly less you can hire very good devs with 5+ yr experience in CN or DE. Often speaks English at full professional proficiency without the help of LLMs too. I know because I currently work for a fully remote startup with people from both countries. For that kind of money you can do what in the U.S., hire below average juniors? Even the most clueless junior likely makes more in SV.

            • By simonh 2025-08-294:37

              Flip that around. Junior devs in the US earning $100k is the anomaly. The fact this is the case indicates the pipeline for competent developer talent is bottlenecked. Right now is still an amazing time to be in Tech. The fact the industry is so hungry for talent it’s paying such rates and is expanding abroad in search of new supply is a sign of it’s health.

          • By geodel 2025-08-292:53

            Agree. It is harsh truth. Even the good old outsourcing seems in resurgence. Lately I see at work large delegations of IT bodyshops claiming 60% saving with AI + a dev/support center in India.

            It may or may not work but it can crater 70% of IT/software department by 2027 as per their plan.

        • By typewithrhythm 2025-08-292:40

          It's interesting, ai seems to be enabling the middle in a positive way.

          On the other side, we have started to find that the value of outsourcing to very low cost regions has completely disappeared.

          I expect that the wages in eastern Europe will quickly rise in a way they never did in former outsourcing hotspots (India for example), because they are able to do similarly complex and quality work to westerners, and are now enabled by awesome translation tools.

          The low quality for cheaper is now better served by the Artificial Indian.

        • By matwood 2025-08-298:53

          There's a lot of nuance in these types of stories. First, the US is far from uniform in salaries. Salaries in large metro areas are different from smaller areas and are different from CA/SV. Europe also isn't uniform, and in Western Europe if a company doesn't move to all contractors they will pay significantly more into a countries equivalent to social security. Personally, I would be uncomfortable having my entire development staff be contractors as their interests are not exactly aligned with mine.

          Amazing talent may end up cheaper in certain locales for a period of time, but if they are amazing they will become more expensive.

          IMO, what's at risk are the entry/mid FAANG type jobs that pay a lot for what they are.

        • By imtringued 2025-08-297:07

          The fixed exchange rates between EU countries massively drags down the international cost of a German software engineer, and US companies have yet to wisen up to that fact.

        • By mosburger 2025-08-2913:002 reply

          My previous employer stopped hiring in the EU (except for the UK, where they were based, and South Africa, where the CTO was from) because the labor laws there made it too difficult for them to fire people, which was a particularly troublesome for them as they had almost quarterly layoffs. They switched back to hiring in the UK and US where there are fewer worker protections.

          • By sensanaty 2025-08-2918:091 reply

            Does the UK really not have labor laws as strong as most countries in the EU? It's not like you can't fire people in EU, you just have to have an actual legitimate reason to do so, exactly because doing quarterly layoffs is absurd and shouldn't be tolerated by anyone.

            • By mosburger 2025-09-0215:12

              The UK seemed generally slightly less strict than, say, Germany, France, or Poland. It sorta felt like it was splitting the difference between the US and the EU.

          • By LtWorf 2025-08-2921:081 reply

            Maybe he should not hire people and then fire them after 3 months? Could it be that your previous employer is a terrible employer?

            • By mosburger 2025-09-0215:11

              Oh it absolutely was a terrible employer.

      • By root_axis 2025-08-294:11

        It doesn't matter what they promote, remote labor is an economic reality. It's not as if employers are going to forget they can offshore your job because you show up to the office 8am sharp every morning.

        The moment they can replace you for cheaper, they will, whether you insist on working remotely or not.

      • By 0xbadcafebee 2025-08-2915:46

        It's not intellectual superiority. They've already offshored all the other jobs they can. If they could offshore my job, they would. But it's very hard to find reliable talent anywhere, much less offshore. It is easier to find the talent here, and there's more of it. Then there's the complexity of hiring, the timezones, language barrier, and all the other small complications that add up.

        Once you have world-class experts all over the developing world, my job might disappear. But you need experience to get there, which they aren't getting, because they aren't here. It's privilege 101: if you have it, you get more of it; if you don't have it, you don't get any of it. We're very privileged to be high-value domestic workers.

        And by the way, remote work has been a thing here for decades, yet the calculation hasn't changed. Our remote jobs are still safe.

      • By cm2187 2025-08-292:20

        And being "superior" doesn't necessarily mean extraordinary coding skills. The vast majority of code to be written doesn't require that. What it requires however is a combination of common sense and good understanding of the underlying business. This is in short supply in many of the locations the jobs are being offshored to. But let's be honest, it was also on short supply in the corporate IT departments being offshored, though not quite to the same degree.

      • By lexandstuff 2025-08-299:36

        The trend of offshoring came and went nearly two decades ago.

        Time zone differences, language barriers and cultural differences proved insurmountable.

        Hybrid remote seems to work quite well, on the other hand.

      • By trod1234 2025-08-296:13

        Regulation is for when businesses cannot regulate themselves.

        In many larger companies also, nationstate threats and national security are a trending issue.

        If you deal with a lot of PII, outsourcing your data processing pipelines to China isn't going to fly with Congress when you get subpoena'ed for a round with Hawley.

      • By estimator7292 2025-08-294:35

        In an ideal world, we'd have some sort of central system that businesses are bound by, in the interest of the common good, to employ domestic workers.

        But alas, such a system is fundamentally impossible. Physics just won't allow it.

      • By celeryd 2025-08-298:49

        Yes. I think American programmers are at a local optimum for combining ingenuity and work ethic. You can get more ingenuity vs work ethic or the other way around elsewhere, but the American blend seems to be best.

      • By laughing_man 2025-08-294:52

        That's my argument against looking for a 100% remote job. Even if the company is happy with you now, eventually there will be new management that sees your job as low-hanging fruit for expense reduction.

      • By guappa 2025-08-2911:13

        Being in the office won't stop offshoring anyway.

      • By nitwit005 2025-08-298:15

        They've been trying to offshore the work for most of a century now. There are still millions of software engineers in the US.

      • By PeterStuer 2025-08-295:22

        When I was on projects with India, churn there was very much higher than from EU sources.

      • By safety1st 2025-08-298:43

        I have no comment on your strawmanning about programmers thinking they're geniuses or something.

        But I've yet to meet an accountant who puts in their 40 hours a week and somehow manages to grow their backlog rather than shrink it.

        Whereas bad programmers who will do that exist in spades.

        Clearly the two professions are not identical.

        That said, I've had two mind bogglingly bad accountants on my payroll in the past who made $100K+ mistakes if we hadn't caught them and fired the fuck out of those dumbasses. One was American and one was Filipino.

      • By hn_throwaway_99 2025-08-292:411 reply

        You're getting downvoted, but IMO what you're saying is exactly true, and I've seen it happen.

        In my experience, pre-2015 or so, offshoring was limited in its utility. Communication was a bitch because videoconferencing from everyday laptops wasn't quite there yet, and a lot of the favored offshoring centers like India had horrible time zone overlap with the US. And perhaps most importantly, companies as a whole weren't used to fully supporting remote colleagues.

        Now, though, if I interact with the majority of my colleagues over Zoom/Teams/Meet anyway, what difference does it matter where they're sitting? I've worked with absolutely phenomenal developers from Argentina, Poland and Ukraine, and there was basically no difference logistically between working with them and American colleagues. Even the folks in Eastern Europe shifted their day slightly later so that we would get about 4 hours of overlap time, which was plenty of time for communication and collaboration, and IMO made folks even more productive because it naturally enforced "collaboration hours" vs. "heads down hours".

        I understand why people like remote, but I agree, US devs pushing for remote should understand they're going to be competing against folks making less than half their salaries.

        • By Moru 2025-08-299:37

          > ... should understand they're going to be competing against folks making less than half their salaries.

          The lower salary can be offset by the lower need for money when you don't need to buy your lunch, you don't need that expensive car to get to work and so on. The time you used for commuting could instead be spent working for another company part time.

      • By deadbabe 2025-08-297:401 reply

        Oh look, another person who thinks engineers are commodities, especially in a field as loosely defined and unregulated as software engineering.

        They always ask “if a job can be done remote why not just hire a foreigner in a cheap place?” and never ask “if the foreigner was so good as the American engineer why wouldn’t they be getting paid the same as the American?”

        It’s like they think companies are dumb and there is some undiscovered engineering arbitrage opportunity waiting to be tapped that will end the high 6 figure salaries of American software engineers forever.

        And yet, since the 90s, software engineer salaries only go up. Millions of Indians flood the foreign markets, but American tech salaries only go up. Covid hits and everyone goes remote, but the salaries only go up. They always go up. American tech holds a supremacy over the world that you will likely not see the end of in your lifetime. There is so much money, so much risk taking, so much drive to dominate, other countries are generations behind.

        But hey keep doing what you’re doing. Maybe you’ll save a couple bucks while your competitors gobble up the market with far better engineering talent. Not “equivalent” talent: better talent..

        • By DecoySalamander 2025-08-2911:161 reply

          > if the foreigner was so good as the American engineer why wouldn’t they be getting paid the same as the American

          You should also ask whether you're paying American so much because they are so good, or are you paying them so much because rents in SF are so high?

          > Covid hits and everyone goes remote, but the salaries only go up. They always go up.

          Once again, did it go up because COVID infections somehow made american workers even better or because lockdowns caused mini tech boom while money printing tanked the dollar's value?

          • By deadbabe 2025-08-2914:40

            Do you really think companies are paying high tech salaries out of the goodness of their hearts? Like “oh this individual lives in a HCOL area, let’s pay them an appropriate amount” or “let’s share the spoils of this tech boom with our workers! $1.5million dollar bonus for everyone!”

      • By slt2021 2025-08-294:47

        >>Do those people really believe they're the most intellectually superior to the rest of the world? If a job can be done purely remotely, what stops the employer from hiring someone who lives in a cheaper place?

        capitalism dictates that a capable remote person will not keep working for a single employer, as it will be a waste of time.

        he/she will work for multiple employers (overemployed and such), maximizing earnings, thus it will constantly keep a gap between in-office and remote workers

      • By crimsoneer 2025-08-2913:49

        I mean, while this might be true, Europe is full to the brim of developers who speak fluent English, and yet cost maybe a third of their US counterparts. Programming is really quite far from being a global market.

      • By goodpoint 2025-08-2912:00

        You think having a HQ in US would prevent a company from opening an office in another country?

      • By Buttons840 2025-08-293:14

        If remote work is cheaper for the owners, then why are the workers the ones promoting it?

    • By ACCount37 2025-08-2815:131 reply

      The reports from the usual "offshoring centers" aren't exactly inspiring. It's a bloodbath over there.

      Seems like the capabilities of current systems map onto "the kind of labor that gets offshored" quite well. Some of the jobs that would get offloaded to India now get offloaded to Anthropic's datacenters instead.

      • By Mars008 2025-08-2822:47

        And some jobs, offshored or not, are just human frontend to datacenters.

    • By tootie 2025-08-2820:541 reply

      Found this article from last year saying IIT grads are facing the same grim outlook as technology hiring in India for new grads has also dried up

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-05-30/tough-...

      So, that doesn't seem like a likely culprit unless you have some convincing evidence.

      • By fibers 2025-08-2821:012 reply

        I think you are conflating 2 things. AI could be going after new entry level jobs in software engineering. I am not a professional engineer but an accountant by trade (I like writing software as a hobby lol) but this article looks like evidence that IIT grads will have a harder time getting these jobs that AI is attacking. My comment rests on the fact that the report doesn't really reconcile with AI destroying entry level jobs for accounting, but rather this type of work being offshored to APAC/India. There are still new COEs being built up for mid cap companies for shared services in India to this day and I don't mean Cognizant and Wipro, but rather the end customer being the company in question with really slick offices there.

        • By typewithrhythm 2025-08-292:46

          My experience has been that the cheap outsourcing to India is one of the main areas AI is a real disruption. You can go straight to the artificial indian, and get a better result than an outsourced worker with AI tooling. It's one of the most obvious "I no longer need a person for this" experiences I have had since self checkout.

          I expect that other areas like accounting that use outsourcing are going to see similar effects in a few years.

        • By tootie 2025-08-2823:07

          I think the article doesn't really prove AI is the culprit but I think this other article disproves that offshoring is. If offshoring was the culprit why is it only affecting the most junior employees? I think the case is still open but AI is the leading candidate.

    • By jameslk 2025-08-2821:271 reply

      How many of these jobs are getting offshored because of AI?

      Language barriers, culture, and knowledge are some of the biggest challenges to overcome for offshoring. AI potentially solves many of those challenges

      • By mostlysimilar 2025-08-2822:064 reply

        > AI potentially solves many of those challenges

        Isn't it exactly the opposite?

        Language barriers: LLMs are language models and all of the major ones are built in English, speaking that language fluently is surely a prerequisite to interacting with them efficiently?

        Knowledge: famously LLMs "know" nothing and are making things up all of the time and sometimes approximate "knowledge"

        • By ammon 2025-08-2822:361 reply

          Nope, LLMs are quite functional in non-english languages. My partner regularly works with ChatGPT in Turkish

          • By xdennis 2025-08-2822:43

            My experience: hosted LLMs are very good, but even 30B models you run locally are quite poor (at least in Romanian). To some degree they still hallucinate words (they don't conjugate properly sometimes).

        • By andoando 2025-08-292:521 reply

          LLMs are really good with translations.

          Google Translate is relatively awful. I have an intern now who barely speaks my native language but very bad English so weve been using it all the time, and its always spot on, even for phrases that dont translate directly

          I bet I can do a good job communicating with you without speaking a common language.

          • By jajko 2025-08-297:14

            I tested chatgpt when it launched with my obscure native language which is spoken by maybe 6 million people, and certainly isnt easy to learn nor elegant in design and doesnt have much common with English.

            It was absolutely flawless, to the level of accentuations and little quirks that no tool before even came close.

            Parent is plain wrong and doesnt have a clue... thats what happens when folks skip on learn foreign languages, the most important thing for life you can learn at school. Actively using multiple languages literally increases brain plasticity, much better than running ie sudoku or similar brain teasers endlessly

        • By jameslk 2025-08-290:391 reply

          Language barriers: The outsourced workers I know use AI to help them ask and answer questions about things in English they don’t perfectly understand because English is their second language. They use it to write better English from English with grammatical mistakes

          Knowledge: True to an extent, but my assumption here is that it would be used to fill in gaps or correct misunderstandings. Not wholesale doing my job. At least that’s often how I use it

          • By osn9363739 2025-08-291:59

            I worry things will be lost in translation (maybe would have already), Or the LLMs will fill in the gaps with wrong information, like some sort of weird telephone game.

            That said, I have one ESL on my team who uses LLMs a lot like that and it's fine so who knows.

        • By tokioyoyo 2025-08-296:55

          It’s basically a solved problem for Japanese <-> English. There are some hiccups, but my coworkers who aren’t fluent in English do pretty good job. We have most of our Slack set up with LLM-auto translations, and it’s been a couple of years of smooth sailing at this point.

    • By the_real_cher 2025-08-2815:271 reply

      This is exactly right.

      The H1B pipeline has not decreased at all whereas millions of American workers have been laid off.

      • By fibers 2025-08-2816:181 reply

        Maybe for software engineering but not for accounting. I've had to interface with many offshored teams and interviewed at places where accounting ops were in COE centers in EU/APAC.

        • By the_real_cher 2025-08-294:43

          Offshoring is parallel to H1B.

          Happening simultaneously sadly.

    • By lazide 2025-08-2814:512 reply

      Yup, 95% of the AI hype is to apply pressure on the labor market and provide cover for offshoring/downsizing.

      • By pipes 2025-08-2816:492 reply

        Where is the evidence for this? Who is "applying pressure on the labour market"?

        • By runako 2025-08-2820:411 reply

          Every executive publicly saying obviously* false things like X job will be done by AI in 18 months is putting downward pressure on the labor market. The pressure is essentially peer pressure among executives: are we stupid for continuing to hire engineers instead of handing our engineering budget to Anthropic?

          * - Someone should maintain a walkback list to track these. I believe recent additions are Amodei of Anthropic and the CEOs of AWS and Salesforce. (Benioff of Salesforce, in February: "We're not going to hire any new engineers this year." Their careers page shows a pivot from that position.)

          • By lokrian 2025-08-2821:441 reply

            Maybe it's a good time to ask for advice. Which IT job roles and companies are least vulnerable to offshoring? Defense contractors and the like?

            • By asa400 2025-08-293:23

              Stuff that isn’t pure SaaS. Physical products that benefit from hands on interaction with customers, worksites, and other internal producers. Small and/or local businesses that want someone whose face they can see in person.

        • By lewhoo 2025-08-2910:54

          1 person billion dollar company - the new buzz phrase when "democratize" became so yesterday is in my opinion just that.

    • By elif 2025-08-2820:243 reply

      Do you have any evidence of this because the rationale seems like a coping strategy or conspiracy theory how it's being suppositioned.

      • By thinkingtoilet 2025-08-2820:40

        Do you have any actual evidence that supports the headline? The article does not. It simply mentions 13% decline in relative employment and then blames AI with no actual evidence. Given what I know about the current state of AI and off-shoring, I think off-shoring is a million times more likely to be the culprit than AI.

      • By stocksinsmocks 2025-08-291:33

        The entire account department at my firm has moved to Poland. That’s nice for them, but as a US citizen it does mean the writing is on the wall. On the plus side I learned a fun fact. Malgorzata is a more common name than I had ever imagined.

        IT help was outsourced to India years ago. I expect them to be replaced with AI the minute their government stops handing the firm big contracts because I’ve never spoken to anyone from that group who was actually better than a chat bot.

      • By fibers 2025-08-2820:54

        Have you seen how the profession has worked post SOX? Did you know 2016 was the peak year where you had accounting students enrolled in uni in the states? I want you to think laterally about this.

    • By jaco6 2025-08-2821:10

      [dead]

    • By ugh123 2025-08-293:38

      Well good thing we have our best guys in gov't to address this /s

    • By BolsunBacset 2025-08-2814:581 reply

      [flagged]

      • By seneca 2025-08-2815:011 reply

        I've always seen it as "Actually Indians", but yeah. That's a lot of what is destroying the US tech job market. It happened to blue collar work in the 90s and early 2000s, now it's our turn.

        • By skeeterbug 2025-08-2815:112 reply

          Nah. Offshoring has been a thing since I started working in 2003. There are always cycles. When offshore projects fail, work comes back.

          • By vitaflo 2025-08-2820:38

            The difference now is many companies have offices offshore with their own management. This isn’t the old offshore consulting to save a few bucks now. This is company employees who just cost a lot less. Once AI becomes more mature this will accelerate rapidly. Companies are going to do whatever they can to reduce labor costs. Always have.

          • By seneca 2025-08-2815:171 reply

            It's not just offshoring now though. It's offshoring plus hundreds of thousands of H-1b holders being brought onshore. Entire departments at major tech companies in US offices are populated by foreign labor. As far as I'm aware that's unprecedented, and it's very different from the offshoring cycle.

            • By HankStallone 2025-08-2815:26

              I wouldn't say it's unprecedented, since I first heard about a call center in Texas that was over 90% foreign labor several years ago. But it's certainly gotten worse.

              I suspect that some companies/policymakers may be trying to flood the market, so to speak, in case importing them gets harder in the future or a bunch get sent home.

    • By londons_explore 2025-08-2820:443 reply

      > Audit quality will continue to suffer

      I wonder how much this actually matters? I understand that for an auditor, having a quality reputation matters. But if all audits from all firms are bad, how much would the world economy suffer?

      Likewise for the legal profession, if all judges made twice the number of mistakes, how much would the world suffer?

      • By drusepth 2025-08-2820:551 reply

        > Likewise for the legal profession, if all judges made twice the number of mistakes, how much would the world suffer?

        Is this hyperbole? It seems like the real question being asked here is "would the world be worse off without deterministic checks and balances", which I think most people would agree is true, no?

        • By tobyjsullivan 2025-08-2821:131 reply

          I read it as assuming the deterministic checks and balances are already absent. We have the illusion of determinism but, in practice, audits (and justice) are mostly theatre as it is.

          From that perspective, lowering the quality of something that is already non-rigourous might not have any perceivable effect. It’s only a problem if public perception lowers, but that’s a marketing issue that the big-4 already have a handle on.

          • By ryoshu 2025-08-290:41

            They don’t though. Marketing hits reality all the time. The Big 4 will survive, but you can only gaslight people for so long.

            The all-in on AI shows a lack of imagination around innovation.

      • By cjbgkagh 2025-08-2822:23

        The current system is not long term stable, and poor accounting is part of the reason more people don't know that. Even worse accounting would speed up the decline.

      • By fibers 2025-08-2820:51

        Then you would have to think twice about the company you may be giving money to (ie the stock market and private bank loans). That's the whole objective of this. Every company is going to need an accountant in one way or another and you don't really need to follow strict GAAP for management requirements (what else is EBIDTA for if anything?), but it's something completely different than saying: I made x dollars and spent y dollars, here is what I have and what I owe, please give me money.

        At the end of the day it is a question of convenience/standards, if GAAP didn't exist maybe firms could use a modified accrual standard that is wholly compliant with tax reporting and that's it.

  • By zoeey 2025-08-298:174 reply

    This past year, I’ve seen a lot of entry-level jobs quietly disappear. It’s not that people are getting laid off, it’s that no one’s hiring beginners anymore. What’s really missing isn’t just the jobs, it’s the chance to grow. If there’s nowhere to start, how are new people supposed to get in and learn?

    • By antonymoose 2025-08-2911:013 reply

      Were there ever that many low-level Junior jobs though?

      In my experience, almost everyone in college would get an internship Junior / Senior year and convert into an FTE after graduation. Those that were not so talented or not so lucky usually struggled to find work, taking many months to finally land a job. Most typically at a Booz Allen Hamilton type of place that was just throwing bodies into seats.

      At all of my employers, I’ve never really seen any openings for Juniors, only Mid and Senior positions. The few Juniors we did bring on outside of an internship pipeline were either internal transfers, e.g. a SOC analyst given a chance or a nepotism type of hire.

      • By _heimdall 2025-08-2911:42

        I got out of school 15 years ago so its been a while now, but at that time there were a ton of junior roles.

        I got a CS bachelors from a decent state school, nothing fancy, and everyone I kept in touch with had found an entry level role pretty quickly after graduation.

        I did do an internship and had an offer from them, but the psy was pretty low and I really didn't want to move where they were. It was a bit stressful turning that down early senior year without a backup yet, but I ended up with quite a few interviews and an offer before graduation.

      • By endemic 2025-08-2918:28

        It took me ~2 years after graduation to find a development job, which was from a "can you code HTML by hand?" classified on craigslist.

      • By zOneLetter 2025-08-2912:531 reply

        That's funny because I've been rejected from Booz Allen so many times lol

        • By antonymoose 2025-09-0118:42

          The fun part is when BAH rejects you, but you end up at a sub-contractor working side-by-side with the guys that rejected you anyway.

    • By spacephysics 2025-08-2910:42

      Unfortunately i think many of those jobs can also be attributed to general economic health post low interest rates.

      Companies now need to leave pre-revenue and turn a profit, or if you’re an established company you need to cut costs/increase margins from other economic headwinds (tariffs, inflation, gov policies etc)

      A Junior dev (and most devs onboarding) will typically require 6-8 months to start being able to meaningfully contribute, then there’s a general oversight/mentorship for a few years after.

      Yes they produce, however I think junior’s market salary plus the opportunity cost lost of the higher salaried mid and senior level in mentoring is a hard pill to swallow.

      The team i work on is stretched very thin, and even after layoffs (which management agreed they went too far with) it’s pulling teeth to get another dev to build things companies are begging for and even willing to separately pay cash upfront for us to build

      If you’re getting into the current job market as a junior, you’ll likely need to go heavy in the buzzword tech, accept a position from a smaller company that pays substantially less, then in 1-2 years job hop into a higher paying mid level role (not to say 1-2 years makes anyone mid level imo)

    • By ViewTrick1002 2025-08-2910:431 reply

      The question is always: Is this simply the effects of a recession or AI?

      No one wants to hire juniors, but when the alternative is too expensive they are an acceptable solution.

      Or if you have some incentive structure where you can get more work out of them like consultancies.

      With a market flooded with senior people accepting a paycut for a job why even attempt hiring juniors?

      • By insane_dreamer 2025-08-2922:05

        The US economy is not in a recession, at least by the standard definition of recession.

    • By celeryd 2025-08-298:541 reply

      Sadly, they will just have to try harder. It is still doable especially for an American, and I'm not a fan of these doomsayers' prophesying. There is still hope because TikTok and video games are putting most young people in a trance.

      • By blitzar 2025-08-299:092 reply

        TikTok and video games are also a more viable path to making $100,000 a month than any other professional path.

        • By rs186 2025-08-299:241 reply

          It is a career path, but it 1) is a path that only works for a small amount of people, most people don't earn anything like that 2) requires a special kind of personality and set of skills 3) is subject to the whim of algorithms 4) requires brand building over time but can be destroyed overnight for many reasons. Most "regular" jobs are much more stable.

          • By blitzar 2025-08-2910:481 reply

            Not so long ago people who played with programming and computers were wasting their time and potential, disappointed their parents and would have been better off getting a "regular" job.

            • By rs186 2025-08-2911:42

              Sure but your comment does not address all those facts that I said. So many jobs were unstable and remain unstable over the past 20 years.

        • By mminer237 2025-08-2912:48

          Um, no. Way more young people are making that kind of money by being a programmer or doctor or lawyer or nurse or actuary or something versus the minuscule number of people making any significant money on tiktok or video games.

HackerNews