Start your own Internet Resiliency Club

2025-06-167:38572338bowshock.nl

Thanks to war, geopolitics, and climate change, Europe will have more frequent and more severe internet disruptions in the very near future. Governments and businesses need to prepare for catastrophic…

Thanks to war, geopolitics, and climate change, Europe will have more frequent and more severe internet disruptions in the very near future. Governments and businesses need to prepare for catastrophic loss of communications. Unfortunately, the necessary changes are risky and expensive, which means they won’t do it until a crisis is already here. However, small groups of volunteers with a little bit of time and money can provide crucial initial leadership to bootstrap recovery.

An Internet Resiliency Club is a group of internet experts who can communicate with each other across a few kilometers without any centralized infrastructure using cheap, low-power, unlicensed LoRa radios and open source Meshtastic text messaging software. These volunteer groups can use their radios, technical skills, and personal connections with other experts to restore internet connectivity.

This page is a quick-start guide to forming your own Internet Resiliency Club. You can also join a mailing list for general questions and discussion about internet resiliency clubs:

https://lists.bowshock.nl/mailman/listinfo/irc

I am Valerie Aurora, a systems software engineer with 25 years of experience in open source software, operating systems, networking, file systems, and volunteer organizing. When I moved from San Francisco to Amsterdam in 2023, I started looking for ways to give back to my new home. In addition to systems consulting, I am a special rapporteur for the EU’s Cyber Resilience Act, serve as a RIPE Meeting program committee member, and speak at European technical conferences.

Why Internet Resiliency Club?

One of my nightmares is waking up one morning and discovering that the power is out, the internet is down, my cell phone doesn’t work, and when I turn on the emergency radio (if you have one), all you hear is “Swan Lake” on repeat.

As a recent immigrant to Amsterdam, I began to realize that this nightmare was increasingly likely. Russia regularly knocks out communications and power in Ukraine, using both bombs and hackers. In 2022, German windmills were disabled by malware aimed at Ukraine. Dubious tankers continue to “accidentally” drag their anchors and cut undersea cables in the Baltic. The head of NATO advised everyone to keep three days of supplies at home.

Ukraine’s advice on network resilience

What made me finally take action is watching a video created by Ukrainian IXP 1-IX to teach other European countries what Ukrainian internet operators have learned about hardening and repairing internet infrastructure leading up to and following the 2022 Russian invasion. The practical realities of keeping networks operating during war were sobering: building camoflouged router rooms with 3 days of generator power, replacing active fiber optic cable with passive, getting military service exemptions for their personnel, etc.. You can watch the most recent version, “Network Resilience: Experiences of survival and development during the war in Ukraine”, a 30 minute presentation at RIPE 90.

What is the Dutch government doing to prepare?

Unfortunately, the government of the Netherlands is not following Ukraine’s lead. Bert Hubert’s blog post describes the Netherlands’ cloud-based “emergency communications” system, which will definitely not work in any emergency that affects power or internet connectivity.

I have asked many Dutch network operators if there is any official plan for the communications equivalent of a “black start” of the electrical grid. If there is one, it isn’t being shared with the people who will have to implement it.

Crisis engineering to the rescue

The final piece of the idea came from a class I took on Crisis Engineering from Layer Aleph, on how organizations facing an existential crisis either swiftly transform themselves into a more functional form, or they fail and become even more dysfunctional. Our class’s first question was, “How do you convince an organization that a crisis is coming and they need to prepare for it?”

Their answer was both depressing and freeing: “You can’t. All you can do is be prepared with tools and a plan for when the crisis arrives. That’s when the organization will listen.”

What can I do personally?

I started thinking about what I could personally do without any help from government or businesses. What if I could organize a group of volunteer networking experts who could communicate without any centralized infrastructure? We could effectively bootstrap communications recovery with just a few volunteers and some cheap hardware.

Ham radio is too expensive, difficult, and power-hungry

Initially I looked into ham radio, but it is just too expensive, difficult, and power-hungry to be practical. Then Alexander Yurtchenko told me about LoRa (Long Range) radio and Meshtastic, a cheap, low-power method of sending text messages across a few kilometers.

After a few months of part-time research and organizing, the Amsterdam Internet Resiliency Club was born. This page exists to make it easier for other people to start Internet Resiliency Clubs in their area.

We need volunteer internet resiliency organizations

The evidence that Internet Resiliency Clubs are necessary keeps growing. Since I started this project, the city of Amsterdam announced that it is planning for three weeks without electricity. Spain and Portugal lost power for most of a day. The U.S. re-elected Donald Trump, who may at some point realize that he can hold Europe hostage by threatening to cut off access to U.S.-owned internet services like AWS and Microsoft Exchange. Simultaneously, large parts of Dutch government are migrating to email hosted by Microsoft, and major Dutch technology firms continue to migrate to AWS and Microsoft Azure.

If you and I don’t do this, dear reader, no one will.

Short version

How to form an Internet Resiliency Club:

  • Collect a group of internet-y people within ~10 km of each other
  • Decide how to communicate normally (Signal, Matrix, email, etc.)
  • Buy everyone LoRa (Long Range) radios and a powerbank with trickle charge
  • Install Meshtastic on the LoRa radios
  • Choose a LoRa channel to communicate on
  • Organize meetups, send messages over Meshtastic, have fun

If you work for a internet infrastructure company, you can suggest giving interested employees a LoRa radio, a mobile phone powerbank, and maybe even a small solar panel for their personal use (perhaps as part of an annual gift or bonus).

LoRa

LoRa radios have several advantages for use in emergency communications:

  • no centralized infrastructure needed
  • no license needed
  • cheap (starting at ~€20)
  • low-power (< 1W, can power with an ordinary mobile phone powerbank)
  • runs open source Meshtastic firmware
  • can send text messages across several line-of-sight hops (several kms)
  • can connect via Bluetooth or WiFi to phones/computers
  • many urban areas have a good Meshtastic network already

Amateur ham radio can transmit at higher bandwidth for longer distances, but requires extensive training, licensing, larger antennas, and more power. Ideally, both would be available in an emergency.

LoRa/Meshtastic basics

With a LoRa radio running the Meshtastic firmware, anyone can send text messages to anyone else with a Meshtastic node as long as it takes three or fewer forwards from other Meshtastic nodes to get from source to destination (usually around ~10 km but highly dependent on local terrain and weather).

Specifically, LoRa is a proprietary technique for sending low bit-rate radio messages (~1 - 25 kbps) using very low power (< 1W), derived from chirp spread spectrum techniques. Meshtastic is open source firmware for LoRa radios that uses a flood-forward mesh protocol to send message across up to three line-of-sight hops between LoRa nodes running Meshtastic.

LoRa radios are for sale online. The cheapest versions are development boards, intended for companies to use while building a product, often without batteries, cases, or good antennas. To use them, you must connect to them from a phone or computer, either over Bluetooth via the Meshtastic app or over WiFi using a web browser. The more expensive systems may include an enclosure, battery, solar panel, larger screen, keyboard, etc. Some can be used without an additional phone or computer.

Battery power

LoRa radios use relatively little power, often in the range of 100 - 200 mA. A normal mobile phone power bank with a capacity of 10000 - 20000 mAh can power a LoRa radio approximately 2 - 8 days, depending on chipset, time spent transmitting, whether WiFi or Bluetooth are in use, etc. The powerbank should support “trickle charging”; without this, many powerbanks will stop supplying power because the power draw of many LoRa radios is so low that the powerbank thinks nothing is connected and stops supplying power.

Solar power

LoRa radios can be powered by directly plugging them into a small solar panel with USB output, or by charging a battery used by the LoRa radio. A small folding 800 cm^2 solar panel generating 15w with a 5W/500 mA max output is sufficient to power many LoRa radios. With this small of a setup, you don’t need fuses, charge controllers, buck/boost converters, or anything other than the solar panel and an optional mobile phone power bank.

Which LoRa radio to buy

LoRa radios are available in a huge range of capabilities and features. For an Internet Resiliency Club, we recommend one of:

  • Heltec V3: no case, no battery, WiFi/Bluetooth, OLED display, USB-C
  • LILYGO T-Echo: case, built-in battery, Bluetooth, e-ink display, USB-C

IMPORTANT: Never turn on a LoRa device without an antenna attached! The power sent to the antenna can destroy the device if there is no antenna attached to radiate it.

Note: While many LoRa devices have USB-C ports, they often don’t implement USB-C PD (Power Delivery) and won’t charge their battery correctly on USB-C to USB-C cables. Use a USB-A to USB-C cable (often supplied with the device).

Heltec V3 series

If you have more time than money, try the latest Heltec V3, currently one of the cheapest boards available at around €20. It has a postage stamp-sized OLED screen, a couple of tiny buttons, WiFi/Bluetooth, and USB-C input/power (but use a USB-A to USB-C cable). Received messages are displayed on the OLED and can be cycled through with tiny buttons. Sending messages requires connecting to it via WiFi or Bluetooth.

It has no case, but the little plastic box it comes in can easily be turned into one with a sharp pen knife. It also has no battery, but it is a good idea to have a separate power bank anyway since you need a working phone or computer to send messages. It has no GPS.

The Meshtastic page on this board includes links to purchase from in Europe. I bought mine from TinyTronics.

LILYGO T-Echo

If you have more money than time, I recommend the LILYGO T-Echo, a simple small low-power ready-to-use handheld device for about €80. It has ~3cm square e-ink display, a case with a few buttons, Bluetooth, GPS, and about a day’s worth of battery. Input/output/charging is via USB-C (but use a USB-A to USB-C cable). Received messages are displayed on the e-ink screen and can be cycled through with the buttons. Sending messages requires connecting with another device via Bluetooth.

The Meshtastic page on this board includes links to purchase from in Europe. I bought mine from TinyTronics.

If you want a standalone device that doesn’t require a separate phone or computer to send messages, the LILYGO T-Deck includes a keyboard, trackball, and touch screen for about €70 - 80, depending on whether it includes a case and whether the antenna is internal or external. It has about 8 hours of battery. I’m not a fan because the screen and keyboard aren’t as good as the one on your phone and take extra battery to run. It is often out of stock, especially if you’re looking for a case and external antenna.

The Meshtastic page on this board includes links to purchase from in Europe.

Upgrading the antenna

Most of the antennas that ship with evaluation boards are not very good. One option for an upgrade if you’re using the recommended 868 MHz network is the Taoglas TI.08.A.

IMPORTANT: Never turn on a LoRa device without an antenna attached! The power sent to the antenna can destroy the device if there is no antenna attached to radiate it.

Flashing (installing) the Meshtastic firmware

Some boards ship with Meshtastic already installed, but it’s undoubtedly several months out of date. Flashing LoRa boards is relatively easy; it can be as simple as using the Meshtastic web browser flasher (requires Chrome or Edge) or dragging and dropping a file into a mounted USB drive presented by the device. A command line tool using a serial interface is also an option, but may require some fiddling with a Python env.

In Europe, two frequencies are available for use by LoRa: 868 MHz and 433 MHz. 868 MHz is the most popular for Meshtastic users in Europe. Several modem presets are available; use the default mode LONG_FAST unless you have a specific reason not to.

LoRa has channels, a stream of messages using the same encryption key and channel name. Each device is configured with a default primary channel shared by all Meshtastic nodes. You can also configure secondary channels that can only be accessed by nodes with the same key and channel name. Choose an encryption key and channel name for a shared secondary channel. You can share a QR code to configure a device with the appropriate channels and settings.

Meetups and practice

The best time to learn how to work together with a group of people is before a crisis, not during it. Crisis engineering tells us that a team is more likely to be successful if everyone has already worked together.

Since this is a volunteer group, “working” together has to be fun. Invite your group to do fun things together, changing up what activity you are doing, where it is located, and what time it is held so that a wide variety of people can participate.

Mailing list

If you have more questions or suggestions, please join our mailing list:

https://lists.bowshock.nl/mailman/listinfo/irc

Many people helped me with Internet Resiliency Club:


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Comments

  • By alnwlsn 2025-06-1614:286 reply

    I've found Meshtastic is simply not ready to be set up in an environment without internet, as I discovered when I brought some of the boards I bought with me on vacation to a rural area with more space to test them, but very limited internet.

    The entirety of the meshtastic project is web first.

    - To flash your boards, the suggested method is their "Web Flasher", and if you download the firmware source, it depends on PlatformIO (and the internet) to download and install the toolchains and flasher programs you need.

    - The clients for meshtastic are available on the app stores, or as a web app at https://client.meshtastic.org/ None of these are offline. I did later learn the boards themselves host the web app, but they still have to be connected to an Wifi AP, you don't get it just by plugging the board into your computer.

    - The docs are hosted at https://meshtastic.org/docs. "Download Docs" or "How to self host this project" are not topics described there or anywhere else. A technical person could figure this out, but this is seemingly not a primary concern.

    I suppose this is the very point of this post, to get people to have it all set up beforehand, but not even having the docs as a PDF I can read offline? I learned about Meshcore too in this thread, but if I go to their site and the "getting started" guide is a Youtube video, then you're not ready for an emergency!

    • By amatecha 2025-06-1618:211 reply

      I only ever flash via CLI or via "drag & drop" method. The web flasher is great for first-timers but there are 100%-offline methods for all the devices.

      The android client .apk can be downloaded directly from github at https://github.com/meshtastic/Meshtastic-Android/releases

      I do agree though, I feel there should be more effort to support "long term lack of internet" use case.

      • By bigiain 2025-06-1623:101 reply

        For this use case - internet resiliency - I suspect the availability of un-flashed LoRa boards will be approximately zero in situations where it's needed. I agree that building an offline capable tool chain would be a good idea (perhaps all you'd need would be RasPi sd cards already flashed with everything needed to flash and configure common LoRa boards, and an archive of android apks?) But if I were allocating internet resiliency club resources, that'd be fairly low down my list.

    • By godelski 2025-06-183:40

      I think a lot of those problems get solved with scale and diversity of users/contributors.

      Look at Linux. In the last decade there's been a huge boon and tbh, the biggest part of that is usability. UI/UX got a lot nicer and cleaner. I mean another part is Microsoft and Apple getting more hostile and people looking for alternatives, but usability is what provided those people space and a larger more diverse community is what made it more approachable.

      What I'm saying is, keep up the criticism but let's also make sure to interpret it as feedback rather than pure complaint. So we can turn these things into what they can be. After all, this is the place where we make great products, right?

      And never underestimate the criticality of documentation. It seems burdensome and annoying since it is always changing, but you can't get people to join your cause if they don't know how to. In your company or your OSS project. It's a very profitable investment

    • By meehow 2025-06-1620:351 reply

      - Compiled firmware is available on GitHub, packed together with a script for flashing it.

      - You can use Meshtastic CLI.

      - Docs are in git repository in .mdx format: https://github.com/meshtastic/meshtastic

      All "sins" you mentioned are results of trying to be more convenient for users used to web browsers. Current state of web is pretty far from being decentralized, including web3.

      • By hosh 2025-06-1717:27

        What happens when you can't access Github?

    • By ycombinatrix 2025-06-178:31

      I think your client specific concerns may not be valid.

      The web app seems to work fine offline. Save the page with your browser.

      Android app is available pre-built on github.

      iOS app can't be distributed to end users offline because of Apple. Blame them or buy a better phone.

    • By graealex 2025-06-179:03

      > you don't get it just by plugging the board into your computer

      Which btw is a rather trivial thing to implement. I've seen devices host a control webserver with Ethernet-over-USB just for convenience.

    • By hosh 2025-06-1617:53

      Hearing this is exciting to me, because it is a very concrete and actionable target for a true “local-first” ecosystem and infrastructure.

      I was very disappointed to find that the “local-first” manifesto was not the “local-first” as I understood it. In my mind, I should be able to connect an app on my phone to another phone via bluetooth, and sync without going through a central server. However, it makes very little economic sense, if someone is building a SAAS product that locks customers into dependencies on a central server where services can be metered and billed. To my mind, those are “offline-first”.

      I have thought about what it would take to build a local-first software forge and package distribution, and yet, I couldn’t see a good reason to expend that effort. We have a lot of the pieces … with this example — if we want to be able to expand a meshtastic network _after_ a disaster, then the whole tooling, development, etc. needs to be local-first and resilient.

  • By wao0uuno 2025-06-1610:478 reply

    I tested meshtastic in a major european city with pretty much 100% mesh coverage and its real life performance was quite underwhelming. Often I would receive messages that I could not reply to because of differences in antenna gain and crappy mesh performance. Public chat was either completely dead or flooded with test messages. Everything was super slow because the mesh can’t actually scale that well and craps out with more than a 100 nodes. Even medium fast channel would clog up fast. I would never depend on meshtastic during an emergency because it barely works even when nobody is using it. I think a public wifi mesh would be more worthwhile. Older used wifi routers are pretty much free and in unlimited supply. They use very little power. Everyone already has a compatible client device on their pocket. Sure the mesh would fail during a total blackout but at least it would be useful for something when the power is up.

    • By TeamMCS 2025-06-1612:462 reply

      I agree with this assessment. I've been running two nodes for about a year, maybe longer, and in that time, I've only had perhaps two contacts.

      Even with a YAGI or a dedicated pole antenna, both tuned to 868 MHz, the range in my location is quite poor. The signal seems to drop off quickly, even after walking just a kilometer down the road. While I understand that height is key (and my antennas are fairly high), it appears that 868 MHz attenuates very rapidly.

      So, to reiterate, I don't believe Meshtastic is a particularly effective solution. The principle behind it is sound, but the practical execution falls short. I think established methods like Hamnet and traditional amateur radio are far superior, especially now with SDRs making a simple handheld radio incredibly affordable (around €20)

      • By hyperionplays 2025-06-1613:081 reply

        Have you tried the Reticulum network? https://reticulum.network

        I have been meaning to try it out

        https://unsigned.io/rnode/

        • By TeamMCS 2025-06-1614:07

          I can't say I have. Let me look into it. Thanks for the share

      • By lormayna 2025-06-177:17

        I agree with you, Meshstatic is not really reliable in this situation. But you need to consider couple of issues: the power for a Lora node must be maximum 0.1W, compared to 0.5W of the free PMR446 handelds. Moreover the handelds are using FM that is not really efficient in term of power, while a Lora node can be powered easily with solar panels.

    • By adrianN 2025-06-1611:582 reply

      Wifi routers use quite a lot of power for the area that they can cover. Ten watts or so for a hundred square meters is a lot of you want to cover a whole city.

      • By wao0uuno 2025-06-1613:081 reply

        Almost everyone has one of these running 24/7 already. Second one with an external antenna wouldn’t make much difference.

        • By Aachen 2025-06-1614:491 reply

          Everyone currently has electricity on demand

          • By wao0uuno 2025-06-1615:441 reply

            Ukrainian grid has been targeted by russian drone and missile strikes for years and it just keeps coming back. Longest downtime (according to a quick google search) was approximately 12 hours. Complete long term blackout in a big European city is very unlikely these days.

            • By pmontra 2025-06-1616:132 reply

              Long term as "days", yes. But all of Spain had a blackout for at least 12 hours a few weeks ago. Turin, Italy, had a 10 hours blackout yesterday.

              • By PokemonNoGo 2025-06-1619:091 reply

                Makes me more impressed by the Ukranians honestly! After Russia is banished they can teach the rest of Europe what resilience looks like in this area.

                • By immibis 2025-06-1712:49

                  Organizations never prepare for a crisis until there is a crisis. It just doesn't happen. The cost of preparing for a crisis is always higher than the probability-weighted cost of the crisis itself, even if the potential impact is bankruptcy, because the probability is always so low. The only organizations that prepare for crises are those whose sole purpose is to prepare for crises.

                  Regulators can also impose certain preparedness obligations on organizations, like power grid black start capability (the government or system operator pays generators a monthly fee to have more expensive equipment that's capable of black-starting).

              • By anthk 2025-06-175:18

                Not all of Spain. A lot of areas had the power back in two hours, at least in the North.

      • By apitman 2025-06-1622:051 reply

        Yes but in exchange you get way more bandwidth. No idea whether it would be enough to run a city-scale text network though.

        • By bigfatkitten 2025-06-1622:49

          With a range of maybe 100 metres line of sight, if you’re lucky.

    • By GardenLetter27 2025-06-1610:591 reply

      Yeah, having gone through the blackout in Spain this would be really useful (using phones).

      Then only one person needs a generator and/or Starlink to provide some connectivity.

      • By moffkalast 2025-06-1611:453 reply

        It's interesting how we're generally headed towards general self sufficiency, off grid solar and wind power with batteries because the grid won't pay you to sell it electricity, mesh networks and satellite internet to get around lazy local ISPs. All we need is a field where robots grow food and we're back in the middle ages but with modern tech. We've even got tech billionaires to stand in as feudal lords and crazy right wing populists instead of inbred kings with weird chins.

        • By edent 2025-06-1612:401 reply

          Where in the world are you? In the UK I get paid to sell my excess solar back to the grid.

          • By moffkalast 2025-06-1613:082 reply

            That's usually the case if there's only a few people with solar or if your local infrastructure is overbuilt, since grids typically aren't designed to handle residential power generation.

            If there's too much solar in your area (which will be the eventual end result everywhere) you get net billing, where you don’t get charged for the energy you use, but they won't pay you a dime for anything over what you use or will even disconnect you if you overproduce so the local substation doesn't explode because it wasn't specced for any of this shit.

            The end result is that you don't get paid for any of your daily overproduction and still get billed at night, the worst of both worlds. It incentives people to buy batteries and store the peaks, with grid power being mostly optional.

            • By Aachen 2025-06-1614:47

              > they won't pay you a dime for anything over what you use

              In some places. If you're dumping excess energy onto their network, in some regions they'll also charge you for that

            • By bigfatkitten 2025-06-1621:401 reply

              > That's usually the case if there's only a few people with solar or if your local infrastructure is overbuilt, since grids typically aren't designed to handle residential power generation.

              Australia has the highest density of residential rooftop solar in the world, making up about 11% of the grid supply. Feed-in tariffs are standard there.

              • By bigiain 2025-06-170:11

                Also in Australia, and yeah feedin tariffs are a thing, but during midday "off peak" times when solar has excess energy, they're down around 1-2% of the retail cost of electricity and that's been going down for years.

                Anecdotally, amongst my social circle, people are buying house batteries because the feedin tariffs are so low it's worthwhile spending $10k or so to store your daytime solar for use in evenings/night - because it costs 40 or 60c per kWHr to buy electricity off the grid in the evening, and they only give you a cent or two to if you feed it on during midday solar peaks. It's way better value to charge your house battery (and you car if you can) than to sell solar generated electricity back to the grid.

        • By bandoti 2025-06-1612:261 reply

          Good premise for a cyberpunk novel. I recommend keeping the weird chins though, because plastic surgery makes anything possible!

          • By moffkalast 2025-06-1613:11

            Yeah solarpunk is probably the most neglected out of all existing sci-fi punks, probably cause it's actually kinda nice and doesn't make a good setting for a gritty depressing story?

        • By pyrale 2025-06-1613:482 reply

          > It's interesting how we're generally headed towards general self sufficiency, off grid solar and wind power with batteries because the grid won't pay you to sell it electricity

          The grid will definitely pay you to sell it electricity if you fulfill the industrial standards it expects.

          The issue in your assessment is that the quality of service provided by someone just setting up solar panels and inverters and plugging that on the grid is the equivalent of starting a skyscraper building company based on your experience building your garden shed. It's not safe, you won't understand why, and eventually you or someone else will get hurt.

          • By pmontra 2025-06-1616:191 reply

            I'd agree with you if I'd setup my solar panels. But if I'd ever install solar at home I'd hire a company to do all the setup. I believe that it would fulfill industry standards.

            • By pyrale 2025-06-177:201 reply

              It wouldn’t. Just like hiring the best pros to make an extremely fancy kitchen wouldn’t make it equivalent to a restaurant kitchen.

              • By bigfatkitten 2025-06-179:151 reply

                It does if your local regulations specifically provide for small scale generation.

                • By pyrale 2025-06-1723:02

                  Local regulation on that topic usually revolves around easing the requirements for small scale/residential production, not around making them respect the same standards as large electricity producers.

          • By ahartmetz 2025-06-1620:561 reply

            Probably taking the "someone gets hurt" part too literally, but inverters do turn off their outputs when the grid goes down. It would take a lot of inverters to make all the other inverters believe that the local part of grid hasn't bee disconnected. I wouldn't be surprised if they had special logic to detect even that case. Of course, there is the case of simply having too much unregulated input to the grid, causing instability. But AFAIK that has never happened anywhere, at least not in a way bad enough to make the news. It is bound to happen if current trends continue, but appropriate actions will be taken at that point and have been taken in large solar installations.

            • By pyrale 2025-06-177:40

              First off, I’d like to state that the following post is about the challenges of handling residential production, not about industrial renewable setups.

              The grid going down is game over. Once you’re at this point, there are already people going hurt. The way inverters react to this is irrelevant.

              The thing making home setups not a source energy utilities would want to pay much for is that they bring no service to the grid (frequency and voltage management, ability to be turned off when the grid manager wants, reactive production management).

              The part where people get hurt is that in overproduction events, the grid manager has no way to cut that production or even single homes, so they sometimes have to cut whole neighborhoods. That did happen already, even if it’s not a common thing.

    • By cedws 2025-06-1611:225 reply

      I'm surprised that phone manufacturers haven't already implemented a mesh network. I guess you could kind of call Apple's Find My network one, but if you want to smuggle arbitary data the bandwidth is very low. Maybe Apple's new mobile Wi-Fi chip is a precursor to an actual Internet mesh network.

      • By wat10000 2025-06-1612:541 reply

        Battery life is a big deal and anything with decent speed would hurt that a lot. People won’t want to sacrifice their battery to get strangers online.

        • By econ 2025-06-1618:461 reply

          That is by design to keep you engaged. My current phone has 7050 mah and 80w charging. I charge it twice per week or so. If you have a slightly chaotic life you have to consider charging 30 times per day, hoard cables and charge powerbanks only to have it die anyway. Now I have one cable that doesn't move and doesn't break.

          • By wat10000 2025-06-1620:22

            What is by design? Battery life? Poor battery life? Good battery life?

      • By RF_Savage 2025-06-1711:22

        Not a single telco wants this. So it does not get built.

        Interestingly DECT NR+ is a 5G standard on dedicated spectrum and has been designed to be a mesh from the start.

      • By solarpunk 2025-06-1717:12

        Pixel 9 and some apple devices use the Thread network fwiw

      • By PokemonNoGo 2025-06-1619:11

        I don't think they themselves need to implement it. During the Hong Kong protests in 2019 they used apps like Bridgefy.

      • By roguecoder 2025-06-1617:19

        Blackberry had one, but it didn't seem to be a feature consumers particularly cared about when they fled to iPhones.

    • By bigfatkitten 2025-06-1621:311 reply

      Meshtastic, like any other network (including mesh wifi) is not immune to the requirement for some planning.

      My area has a couple of very well-placed mountaintop ROUTERs that tend to suppress most of the low level urban flooding noise, and so local messaging out to 80km or so tends to be pretty reliable. The same would be absolutely impossible with wifi.

      That’s with 80 or so local nodes on LONG_FAST, population of around half a million.

      Thats said, Meshtastic’s routing algorithm is extremely inefficient and has huge room for improvement.

      • By apitman 2025-06-1622:031 reply

        > My area has a couple of very well-placed mountaintop ROUTERs that tend to suppress most of the low level urban flooding noise

        What does this mean exactly and how does it address GP's concerns?

    • By zikduruqe 2025-06-1614:15

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FabFi

      https://web.archive.org/web/20111119205258/http://fabfi.fabf...

      I had worked with this almost 15 years ago. It was a neat project.

    • By UltraSane 2025-06-1613:561 reply

      Meshtatisc's routing is extremely primitive and inefficient.

      https://www.disk91.com/2024/technology/lora/critical-analysi...

      • By nullc 2025-06-1623:59

        I've also found meshtastic to be pretty ineffectual, in both urban enviroments and in totally rural ones where my devices are the only devices for >50 miles.

        I've given more study to the latter, and I think it's the lack of store and forward reliable transmission. The messages goes out once and if it doesn't make it.. too bad so sad. The whole ecosystem strongly assuming you have internet access is also a real bummer.

        If anyone is looking to improve it or develop a better alternative, I did help create a primitive you should consider using: https://github.com/sipa/minisketch

    • By burnt-resistor 2025-06-1613:371 reply

      It's exactly like Mountain View Google WiFi.

  • By lljk_kennedy 2025-06-168:386 reply

    > One of my nightmares is waking up one morning and discovering that the power is out, the internet is down, my cell phone doesn’t work

    I dunno.... as I get older, this sounds more and more idyllic

    • By talkingtab 2025-06-1612:501 reply

      To perhaps add a dimension to the issue, imagine that one day you woke up and the roads were not functional. Many people would have a great time, as long as they knew the roads were going to be functional later that day. If it turned into a longer problem, the disruption would have vast and unpleasant consequences.

      We do not yet have an awareness of our dependence on technologies, nor of how fragile those technologies can be. If someone had suggested years ago that perhaps we should prepare for a disruption in say, the egg supply, that would have provoked laughter. And jokes like, well I really don't like eggs. Or what about toilet paper hoarding? Given just those two events alone, one might decide that disruptions are at least somewhat of a possibility. That our past assumptions of an unending supply of goods and services might not hold in the future.

      It is a funny comment, and there are several dependencies I personally would not miss. Until I did.

      Personally, the interesting concept is resiliency in general.

      • By dghlsakjg 2025-06-1618:21

        > To perhaps add a dimension to the issue, imagine that one day you woke up and the roads were not functional. Many people would have a great time, as long as they knew the roads were going to be functional later that day. If it turned into a longer problem, the disruption would have vast and unpleasant consequences.

        To be fair, this is a real scenario for people in snowy/and or rural areas. It isn't uncommon for people in my area of Canada to get snowed in for a few days.

    • By ndr 2025-06-168:404 reply

      I see the sarcasm but you're likely not simulating this hard enough. This is what happened in most of Spain and Portugal during the recent power outage and it wasn't pretty.

      • By tmountain 2025-06-1611:214 reply

        I guess it depends on your perspective. Here in Portugal, lots of people ended up sitting on their patios, chatting with friends, cooking on the grill, playing cards, sipping wine, and generally having a pretty good time. There was a collective groan around the small village where I live when the power came back on, and quite a few people commented that they were disappointed that they'd have to work in the morning.

        • By Aachen 2025-06-1614:53

          Right, it's fun to sip wine and chew bubblegum for a day, but that's not the scenario people are worried about

        • By herzzolf 2025-06-1812:55

          Also based in Portugal, big city, and had a shockingly different experience. Fights in the street over traffic violations, fights at the bus/train stops for cutting 3h+ long queues, people hauling multiple 5L bottles and emptying the stores...

          I doubt everything would be as idyllic as you describe if the blackout went for longer.

        • By Fnoord 2025-06-1617:252 reply

          > and quite a few people commented that they were disappointed that they'd have to work in the morning

          Hangover from the port.

          Instead of doing drugs or chatting, I'd read a book on my Kobo.

          The thing with the stuff you mentioned. I already drank enough alcohol jn my life to not bother with it anymore. Same with card games. And random chitchat.

          • By maplant 2025-06-1617:581 reply

            You've had enough random chitchat to last a lifetime?

            • By Fnoord 2025-06-1619:441 reply

              With my neighbors? For sure. Friends? Don't live near me anymore. How am I going to chat with my friends if they're hundreds of kilometers away? By way of a (smart)phone, which requires power.

              We actually saw the effect of downtime during covid. In the beginning, a massive appreciation for health services. We all know how long that lasted. In the beginning, it was us against the virus. Eventually, we were fighting with each other, even over details. Rest assured, offensive propaganda services from secret agencies learned a lot from that (one may guess which one primarily).

              If it was so awesome that wine drinking and chit-chat, why aren't we doing it? A pretty simple explanation is: because it ain't awesome. Yes, a change of pace can be regarded as a fun challenge or change of pace. Heck, it may even open up people to changing their life. But look how much we remote work post covid. Policies were reverted.

              • By maplant 2025-06-1620:08

                People absolutely drink wine and chit-chat with each other. They can't during the day usually because they have work.

                It seems to me that these modern anti-social tendencies are actively driving a wedge between most people and their surroundings, making people further isolated from each other. Young people tend to spend time in doors alone because they don't know _how_ to interact with strangers. But they should because being alone is literally damaging to your health.

                Being far away from friends is bad for you[1]. Being socially isolated is bad for you. Promoting a lifestyle in which you don't have friends and don't talk to strangers is akin to promoting a lifestyle in which you don't exercise.

                It's not "awesome", it's a necessary component of living healthily as a human being.

                [1] https://www.cdc.gov/social-connectedness/risk-factors/index.... - I found this source from the CDC but there are numerous others

          • By ornornor 2025-06-176:46

            You sound fun

      • By al_borland 2025-06-1611:481 reply

        The power grid went down in a large area of the US about 20 years ago. The biggest issue I saw was the gas pumps didn't work. Cars were lined up, many abandoned, just waiting for the power to come on some they could get gas. I was in college at the time, but home for a few days. I heard rumors that the power was on west of us (where my school was), so I just started driving west, hoping I found where the power was on before I ran out of gas. Thankfully, that worked out.

        But if the power, and the gas stations, don't work anywhere. It won't take long before we start running out of food and other utilities start to fail.

        • By tcoff91 2025-06-1612:412 reply

          It’s absurd that we don’t require gas stations to have generators on-site. They have all the fuel they need to power them right there!!!

          Now nobody else can get more fuel for their generators when the gas stations don’t have power either.

          This was a big issue during the power shutoffs during LA fires this year.

          • By dghlsakjg 2025-06-1614:535 reply

            Gas stations are private businesses, and they typically make almost nothing on gas, most of their margin is in the c-store.

            Requiring every single one of them to invest in a 5-6 figure power backup solution with hundreds or thousands in yearly maintenance costs, so they can sell their lowest margin product to accommodate those who can't plan ahead during a disaster that happens maybe once in a decade event is pretty absurd.

            • By al_borland 2025-06-1616:131 reply

              How does one plan ahead for a multi-day regional power failure, that may only happen once in their lifetime? Should everyone have several hundred gallons of gasoline stored in their garage just incase? Or maybe we all invest in personal solar generation at our homes, with enough battery capacity to power an electric car and the home through those short winter days? This would cost tens of thousands of dollars for every household in the country. What about renters? Are they out of luck? Suggesting individuals prepare for this seems equally absurd, does it not?

              • By dghlsakjg 2025-06-1616:541 reply

                > How does one plan ahead for a multi-day regional power failure, that may only happen once in their lifetime?

                Ready.gov has instructions.

                > Should everyone have several hundred gallons of gasoline stored in their garage just incase?

                oh, c'mon.

                Do you or any one person you know use several hundred gallons of gas over the course of a few days on critical things? If that is the case, then yes, by all means you should have a private gasoline backup supply since you are running some sort of industrial scale operation.

                If you are worried about it, just make sure you have a several day supply of gasoline on hand. For most people that use about a tank of gas per week that means filling up when you are at half tank. For those of us, like me, who live in a place where a generator is occasionally useful, a couple of jerry cans full of gas are typically already on hand. Hundreds of gallons could keep me powered up for weeks at a minimum unless I was really trying to use a lot of power.

                For most people, gasoline is used exclusively for their car, which has a multi-day gas supply storage mechanism built in.

                Lets say we require all gas stations to have the ability to pump gas during a blackout. Then what? It doesn't solve any of your hypotheticals. Without a beefy generator and a professional crossover switch, you aren't powering your home with gasoline. What is a working gas station going to do for a renter, or apartment dweller?

                In any case. If things get actually desperate, it isn't that hard for a handy person to wire a generator up on the spot, and get gas pumping, although at that point, what are the chances that the payment network is online. At that point you can just run the pump by hand if it's truly desperate.

                > Suggesting individuals prepare for this seems equally absurd, does it not?

                Not absurd at all. Experts and the government actually suggest that people do some of their own preparations for disasters. They suggest that you have enough on hand to survive for 48 hours without outside help. There are entire government initiatives, campaigns and organizations based on this exact premise. Check out Ready.gov for the USA federal version. You can probably find state and local level initiatives where you are too, if in the US. Almost every large, multi-day, regional blackout in living memory is weather related, which also means it is predictable.

                • By 20after4 2025-06-1618:382 reply

                  Gasoline has a very short shelf life.

                  • By zahlman 2025-06-1623:58

                    Every source I can readily find puts that shelf life in the range of several months - so, not relevant to the scenario being discussed.

                  • By x0x0 2025-06-171:441 reply

                    Stabilizers for 20 gallons cost under $10, allowing 2 years of storage.

                    • By devilbunny 2025-06-173:26

                      And gasoline is insanely easy to replace if you have a car that uses it. Drive to station when car is empty, dump oldest 5 gallon can of fuel into tank, finish filling tank, refill can. Do it every three months. No gas is more than a year old, half the time that stabilizers allow.

                      If disaster strikes, you never worry about the gas you have.

            • By chairmansteve 2025-06-1615:161 reply

              I guess a government/population that cared about resilience would require them to add a few pennies/gallon onto the price to pay for backup generators. Maybe also bigger storage tanks.

              • By dghlsakjg 2025-06-1618:05

                Maybe they would just design a more reliable grid, or have an emergency management organization that can flexibly solve many problems instead of dictating huge costs to private business owners in order to cover for extremely rare events.

            • By zahlman 2025-06-1623:562 reply

              > and they typically make almost nothing on gas, most of their margin is in the c-store.

              It's hard for me to imagine gas station convenience stores doing enough volume for this to make any business sense.

              • By dghlsakjg 2025-06-172:13

                Pretty well known, and documented. You can google it, or do the math yourself. Typical margins are around 1-2% on fuel sales. You can check this by looking up the wholesale price of gas (search for 'gasoline rack price', that tells you what it costs at the distribution center), then add in taxes, and you will find that most stations are within a few cents of cost. Don't forget that gas pumps cost $20k per, and all of the fixed costs like tanks, testing, calibration, inspections, etc.

                The business model for a typical gas station is to bring people in with competitively priced gas, since people are incredibly price sensitive to gas, and then make money with high margin c-store items. Most of the things in a c-store have triple digit margins. That's why you'll see plenty of c-stores without gas stations, but its pretty rare to see a gas station that doesn't have a business attached.

              • By al_borland 2025-06-171:001 reply

                Movie theaters have a similar model. The movie gets you in the door, but it’s very low margin. They make almost all their profit on the concessions.

                While I can count on one hand the number of times I walk into the store at a gas station in a given year, I know others who buy things on a daily basis, to the point that they’re on a first name basis with everyone there and the employees start asking questions if a few days go buy without a visit.

                • By zahlman 2025-06-183:16

                  > I know others who buy things on a daily basis, to the point that they’re on a first name basis with everyone there and the employees start asking questions if a few days go buy without a visit.

                  ... I suppose it takes all kinds.

            • By tcoff91 2025-06-1617:251 reply

              I had to get gas every day for my generator during the outages. Only one gas station in down was in an area that still had power. If you don’t live in so cal and have to deal with public safety power shutoffs, quit talking out of your ass. Our power grid is so unreliable here that they really need to make the gas infrastructure more resilient.

              When shit goes down, people need to be able to get fuel. The populace at large is never going to be prepared enough to deal with every gas station in the area going down. Raise the cost of gas by 10 cents to cover the costs. If every station is mandated to do so then they won’t have any issues with the margins as they will simply all raise prices in concert.

              • By dghlsakjg 2025-06-1617:592 reply

                I don't live in SoCal. I live in rural Canada where I get several power outages per year due to inclement weather downing lines.

                It sounds like there wasn't really a problem with gas availability, in your case. You were able to get enough gas to comfortably power a generator with no preparation during one of the biggest emergencies the city has ever seen. During the LA fires, the power cuts were to small enough areas that you could have just driven to a different area of the city. That sounds inconvenient, but hardly worth the effort of building independent power generation sources for the 10k+ gas stations in your state.

                A far better solution is to do what we do in my part of Canada: a competently run power company that doesn't arbitrarily shut off power due to failing infrastructure setting billions of dollars worth of city on fire. We don't have PSPS's despite living in a very fire prone place with extreme weather because our infrastructure is maintained much better.

                Instead of forcing everyone to subsidize individual power plants for gas stations to do long tail risk mitigation, California should maybe invest in a grid that doesn't regularly cause billion dollar fires.

                • By 20after4 2025-06-1618:42

                  You make a great point. Additionally, I know personally of one house fire that was caused by sparks from a power line falling on a stray gas can and lighting the whole place on fire. If you combine bad infrastructure with everyone storing a bunch of extra gas around the house, then that might actually increase fire risk significantly.

                • By wat10000 2025-06-1622:08

                  It’s also not something you really need to plan in advance. It’s ok if you can’t pump gasoline for a day. If there’s some catastrophic outage that takes down an entire region for days, you can hook up generators to the pumps at that point. There are plenty of portable generators out there. It’s not like a hospital where people will die if the power is out for more than a minute.

            • By immibis 2025-06-1712:41

              Government imposes all sorts of regulations on all sorts of businesses; prices rise to cover it. Any one individual gas station might not be able to sustain having an expensive generator, but if they all need one, and they all raise prices to cover it, it doesn't affect the competition much.

          • By geraldhh 2025-06-1613:30

            absurdities not withstanding, this might actually be a good idea.

      • By cogogo 2025-06-1613:26

        Think the some of the worst of it was for people stuck in elevators. Don’t have exact numbers but there were A LOT of them. Emergency services were very busy freeing people. My wife was stuck on a train and that wasn’t so great either. Toilets overflowed, ran out of water, eventually evacuated and walked to the previous station. They were lucky to be only a couple km away.

      • By camillomiller 2025-06-168:455 reply

        It also wasn't so incredibly nasty, though. There were disruptions and some arrests, but the large majority of people were in the streets socializing, dancing, doing impromptu things they wouldn't be doing on a work day.

        • By dewey 2025-06-168:491 reply

          That's because they kinda expected everything to be back to normal in a few hours. If there would be some more catastrophic distributed outage there would probably be less dancing.

          • By AlecSchueler 2025-06-1611:142 reply

            But wait either it was "pretty" or it wasn't. We've gone from "it wasn't pretty" to "Ok, it was pretty, but only because they expected a resolution."

            • By closewith 2025-06-1612:084 reply

              Pretty for young and unencumbered, less so for the COPD patient with an oxygen concentrator, or the parent of an infant running out of sterile bottles, etc.

              • By goda90 2025-06-1614:561 reply

                To sterilize a bottle you simply need boiling water without a significant amount of toxic materials in it. To get boiling water you need water, a container for the water, a combustible fuel, an ignition source, and a means of transferring heat from the burning fuel to the water. Even if you don't have a metal pot you can do stuff like heating rocks and then stacking them on cool rocks inside a plastic, glass, ceramic, wood, etc container filled with water to get to a boil.

                • By closewith 2025-06-1616:542 reply

                  > Even if you don't have a metal pot you can do stuff like heating rocks and then stacking them on cool rocks inside a plastic, glass, ceramic, wood, etc container filled with water to get to a boil.

                  That can get you sterile water, although it's extremely difficult to do and involves many more rocks than you'd imagine easily 5x the mass of rock to water to get a rolling boil for a full minute, but it doesn't get you clean water. Now you have sterile water with a lot of potentially very unpleasant dissolved solids. Certainly not something you'll be using to feed an infant.

                  • By goda90 2025-06-1813:241 reply

                    Put the bottle in a smaller container of clean water inside the larger container of water with the top sticking out of the water so it doesn't overflow into it. It'll take longer to boil without the convection but you'll get there eventually. You can fashion tongs out of sticks to pull rocks back out after their heat has mostly transferred to the water while you put newly heated ones in.

                    • By closewith 2025-06-1813:28

                      You're romanticising the situation with nonsense solutions.

                  • By prmoustache 2025-06-1622:08

                    it takes 5 minutes to build a simple but effective alcohol stove out of a soda can.

              • By djrj477dhsnv 2025-06-1612:351 reply

                Sterile bottles? Millions of babies around the world are doing just fine every day without that.

                • By closewith 2025-06-1612:52

                  With breastfeeding, which millions can't, for whatever reason (even if only prior preference, you can't turn it on at will). Bottle feeding young babies without the ability to semi-sterilise formula and sterilise bottles will lead to higher infant mortality.

              • By tonyoconnell 2025-06-1612:362 reply

                Some parents of infants would be able to find a way to feed their children safely.

                • By closewith 2025-06-1613:001 reply

                  Obviously, but not all. I can't believe I have to say this, but prolonged blackouts (with all the downstream ramifications they bring to hygiene, temperature control, food safety, food availability, etc) would cause infant mortality to exponentially rise as days pass without power.

                  • By 20after4 2025-06-1618:481 reply

                    Without the power grid we are right back to the dark ages in a matter of a few days. Except at least in the dark ages people sort of knew how to survive. Now, only a minority of people really know how to survive without modern conveniences.

                    • By briansm 2025-06-175:071 reply

                      I would disagree. The dark ages were hundreds of years ago, the electric grid is much less than a century old. Plenty of countries have unreliable supply and rolling blackouts and have adapted to it or have just never became accustomed to the luxury of 24/7 electricity on demand. Being without juice is not the end of the world.

                      • By closewith 2025-06-177:13

                        Those places generally have the luxury of 24/7 electricity, normally via diesel gensets, for key parts of their infrastructure, such as fuel transfer, hospital, food supply.

                        The places that don't have the fallback ready access to fallback diesel genset, like rural South Sudan or Burundi, are pretty close to an end of the world scenario.

                        Don't romanticise disaster. If a developed country indefinitely lost power, a huge swathe of the population would die, starting with the infants, elderly, and chronically ill. Then hunger and disease would come for the rest. Nonsense ideas that we'd MacGyver or bushcraft our way out of trouble are infantile.

                • By collingreen 2025-06-1614:08

                  Hopefully it isn't controversial to acknowledge that a few extra dead babies is actually a terrible thing not something you brush aside, right?

              • By camillomiller 2025-06-178:101 reply

                You mean everyone who didn't have an issue because modern hospitals have backup generators that can run for days, or even indefinitely if diesel-based?

                • By closewith 2025-06-1710:00

                  The diesel supply in all countries is dependent on the grid, so days is the absolute maximum. The reality is often much less. During the recent power outage in Portugal, the Alfredo da Costa maternity hospital had only one hour's diesel and had to be resupplied by ministerial chauffeurs delivering Jerry cans of fuel.

                  Still, all the ancillary services that go into a hospital like water, sewage, medical gasses, cold chains, etc are all dependent on the grid, as are the people who make them work. If a large-scale outage happens, most hospitals will start losing patients within 24-48 hours and will close as functioning hospitals well within a week.

            • By lucianbr 2025-06-1611:472 reply

              > Thanks to war, geopolitics, and climate change, Europe will have more frequent and more severe internet disruptions in the very near future. Governments and businesses need to prepare for catastrophic loss of communications.

              I think the subject of the thread is pretty clearly how to deal with interruptions that won't resolve themselves in a short time. It's on you that you choose to ignore that and focus on "was it pretty for a milisecond?"

              • By AlecSchueler 2025-06-1612:03

                Come on, what?

                Now we've gotten to "Ok the claim was admittedly not true but it's your fault for pointing it out instead of going along with the groupthink" Is this the post-truth society we hear about?

                The sub-thread was very clearly started by the idea that loss of connectivity might not be as bad as assumed, there was space to have some debate about what positives could be taken and how we could actually prepare to live with outages alongside preparing to negate them.

                I didn't think much of it honestly, the original point of it not being so bad, but your comment has left me with the feeling that the internet can't fall soon enough.

              • By camillomiller 2025-06-178:12

                moving the goal post must be fun, especially when you can't understand you're doing it, thus completely degrading the debate!

        • By killerstorm 2025-06-169:062 reply

          Cooking, refrigeration and water pumping depends on electric power. It can definitely get nasty if it lasts for more than a day

          • By BLKNSLVR 2025-06-169:402 reply

            This is one of the reasons I'm looking at extending my solar system to add a battery and islanding, so I can have a regular resupply of some amount of power/electricity for the necessities in case of extended outages.

            I'm not sure how far into "prepper" that makes me. I don't have a store of canned food or weapons or a generator. I started down this track to keep my home lab (on which I self-host a bunch of stuff) online / protected through outages.

            Additionally, the city in which I live has an ad-hoc amateur WiFi setup which connects over several kilometres. I used to be a member a long time ago but, ironically (in this context) getting fiber internet meant I kinda lost interest. It's one of those things that had just never gotten back to the top of my priority list: https://air-stream.org/

            Feels like they're ahead of game on this topic.

            • By axelthegerman 2025-06-1610:534 reply

              Solar and battery for refrigeration seems a waste.

              If you own a house I'd look into very old school options like digging a deep hole to store your food in a dark&cool place - forgot the name for it but it'll work for weeks or months without a single milliwatt

              • By card_zero 2025-06-1611:01

                A "cellar"? :)

                Or if you want to get technical I guess "root cellar".

              • By wat10000 2025-06-1612:58

                That sounds really inconvenient (am I going to keep my food down there all the time, or is the plan to carry the entire contents of my refrigerator down there in an outage?) not terribly effective (RIP all the frozen stuff) and probably not any cheaper. Plus the hole can’t be used for other things like charging my phone.

              • By chairmansteve 2025-06-1615:281 reply

                Convert a chest freezer into refrigerator and you don't need batteries.

                https://www.notechmagazine.com/category/refrigeration

                • By card_zero 2025-06-1618:172 reply

                  That's very smart and might end my quest for a truly quiet bedroom fridge, if it really only runs two minutes in an hour. (Light fridges marketed as "quiet" just produce near-constant annoying fan noise, quietly.)

                  • By 20after4 2025-06-1618:52

                    It really works, and if you fill half the space with water then it'll only need to run once or twice a week (assuming you don't open the lid often)

                  • By michaelt 2025-06-1619:05

                    Have you looked at hotel minibar fridges? They're generally pretty quiet.

              • By Dylan16807 2025-06-1618:17

                It'll work just great to keep half the things in my fridge safe and none of the things in my freezer safe.

                Refrigeration is top priority and I would happily buy solar panels just to keep it working (plus leeching a few watts for my phone).

            • By ta1243 2025-06-1611:091 reply

              Solar+battery is great for a few weeks locally with no power, or a couple of days nationally.

              It's terrible in a society-collapse way - makes you a target.

              • By antisthenes 2025-06-1613:021 reply

                > It's terrible in a society-collapse way - makes you a target.

                A target for what? People to come charge their phone at your house?

                Why would you be a target if 50%+ of population have solar setups?

                • By ryandrake 2025-06-1615:502 reply

                  If society actually suffers a sustained "collapse," access to electricity won't even be among your top-20 problems. You're going to be more worried about how you're going to obtain water, food, and protect yourself from the roving looters and/or warlords that will immediately spring up in the absence of law and order.

                  • By antisthenes 2025-06-1619:391 reply

                    > protect yourself from the roving looters and/or warlords that will immediately spring up in the absence of law and order.

                    This is a hollywood meme.

                    The reality is that aggressive looters/warlords will be very quickly disposed of and the remaining ones will fall in line and become semi-official protective militia forces, who will labor alongside farmers in small communities if they don't want to starve.

                    Food scarcity will be a much bigger issue that some nutcase trying to loot my solar panels.

                    • By apitman 2025-06-1622:291 reply

                      What makes you so confident it would pan out that way rather than the meme way? Especially if potential warlords only have the memes for inspiration.

                      • By antisthenes 2025-06-1714:39

                        There are a lot more of regular reasonable folks who own guns (approximately 134 million in USA) than those who have some kind of meme warlord fantasy.

                        Which is to say, normal people really don't like shooting each other, and they REALLY don't like being shot at, so most normal folks would eliminate the threat of crazy warlords first, then form some kind of organized militia group to repel small groups of raiders/thieves.

                        Any large group of raiders would very quickly fall victim to its own internal politics and lack of resources, because they don't produce anything. You can't have a group that's 100% raiders.

                        It's just not going to look like Mad Max, ever. Sorry to disappoint.

                  • By 20after4 2025-06-1618:57

                    For folks with a private well, electricity is the key to fresh water. At least for a while.

          • By XorNot 2025-06-169:461 reply

            This is exactly it. The other part is not just water pumping but operating the sewer systems - if the lift stations are down the whole thing fills up in about a week and the basic plumbing in your house - and thus pretty much entire city, stops working.

            Cities are not setup to support their current populations without those services and once you run out of buffer things go downhill quick - wastewater is an enormous and immediate disease hazard.

        • By GardenLetter27 2025-06-1611:00

          Only because it didn't last overnight and wasn't at the peak of summer.

          Otherwise you're throwing out all fresh food, supermarkets couldn't process payments nor most restaurants either, etc.

        • By whiplash451 2025-06-1610:11

          Did you check with hospitals, prisons and daycares how things went?

    • By nunodonato 2025-06-168:411 reply

      During peace, yes. If there is any sort of crisis, no

    • By junon 2025-06-1611:311 reply

      When Whatsapp and a bunch of social media went down a few years back I took a stroll outside that evening here in Berlin and the streets were weirdly buzzing. It was a bit surreal.

      Maybe some sort of bias but I also view things this way.

      • By pino82 2025-06-1613:18

        I can remember I was at a birthday party and the entire topic of the f*cking evening was when it will be online again. With everybody checking every 23 seconds.

        I left that 'party' quite early.

    • By anupulu 2025-06-175:31

      Not if you work at a hospital, for example.

    • By StefanBatory 2025-06-1712:26

      > "and when I turn on the emergency radio (if you have one), all you hear is “Swan Lake” on repeat."

      Why did you cut out that part?

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