Windows 11 adds AI agent that runs in background with access to personal folders

2025-11-1723:47700637www.windowslatest.com

Microsoft is moving forward with its plans to turn Windows 11 into a full-fledged “AI” operating system amidst Copilot backlash. The first big move in that direction is an experimental feature called…

The first big move in that direction is an experimental feature called “Agent Workspace,” which gives AI agents access to the most-used folders in your directory, such as Desktop, Music, Pictures, and Videos. It will also allow AI agents to have their own runtime, desktop, user account, and ability to always run in the background if you turn on the feature.

New agentic features in Windows 11

As soon as I installed Windows 11 Build 26220.7262, Windows Latest noticed a new toggle “Experimental agentic features” inside the “AI Components” page in the Settings app > System.

Experimental agentic features in Windows 11

This turns on “Agent Workspace,” but it doesn’t work right now, and if you’re wondering, it’s only available to Windows Insiders in the Dev or Beta Channel.

What are AI Agents and how do they work?

Before I explain what an Agent Workplace is, you need to understand AI Agents. If you’ve ever used ChatGPT, you might have come across ‘Agents.’ AI Agents have their own interface, and they navigate just like a human.

For example, if you ask ChatGPT’s Agent to book a travel, it’ll open Chromium on Linux in an Azure container, search the query, visit different websites, navigate each page and book a flight ticket using your saved credentials. An AI Agent tries to mimic a human, and it can perform tasks on your behalf while you sit back and relax.

That’s the core idea Silicon Valley is trying to sell.

Up until now, these Agents have been limited to cloud containers with Chromium and Linux terminal access, but as Microsoft wants Windows 11 to become an “AI-native” OS, it’s adding Agent Workspace.

Agent workspace is a separate, contained Windows session made just for AI agents, where they get their own account, desktop, and permissions so they can click, type, open apps, and work on your files in the background while you keep using your normal desktop.

Instead of letting an agent act directly as you, Windows spins up this extra workspace, gives it limited access (like specific folders such as Documents or Desktop), and keeps its actions isolated and auditable.

Each agent can have its own workspace and access rules, so what one agent can see or do doesn’t automatically apply to others, and you stay in control of what they’re allowed to touch.

I find the idea of Agent Workspace a bit similar to Windows Sandbox, but it’s not designed with security or privacy in mind, and it could be one of the ways to have fun with AI on Windows 11.

Windows 11 Agent Workspace

When you toggle on the feature, Windows warns that it could hurt performance and affect your security or privacy controls, but it’ll give you access to new “agentic” experiences in the OS.

Windows 11 lets AI agents into your Documents and Desktop folders

When you turn on the feature, you’re giving agents access to apps and even local folders, such as Desktop, Music, Pictures, and Videos.

Agent Workspace requires access to apps or private folders to perform actions on your behalf. Microsoft insists that it’s taking care of security implications by giving Agent Workspace its own authorisation (a separate account, similar to your user account), runtime isolation. Each agent will have its own defined set of dos and don’ts.

The idea is to give Agents their own backyard on your PC, and let them run in the background all the time. You’ll be able to monitor the logs and keep an eye on agent activity.

Experimental agentic features toggle

While each agent gets its own account, independent of your personal account, an agent would still need access to your personal folders, such as Documents and Desktop. You’ll be asked to grant permissions to the following:

  • apps in Windows
  • personal folders, mostly downloads, documents, and desktop, etc.

AI Agents may have performance issues

In our tests, Windows Latest observed that the experimental toggle warns of potential performance issues, and it makes sense.

AI agents are going to run in the background all the time and use RAM or CPU, depending agent’s activity. However, Microsoft’s early benchmarks suggest they won’t really drain PCs of their power. Microsoft says AI Agents will use a limited amount of RAM and CPU, but it won’t tell us how limited the ‘limit’ is.

By default, these agents are lightweight, but the catch is that some Agents could be resource-intensive.

Microsoft insists it deeply cares about power users

Ironically, this new agentic experience has been announced after Microsoft’s Windows boss promised to improve Windows for everyone, including developers, whom it deeply cares about.

While the Experimental Agents Feature is optional, it makes it quite obvious Microsoft will not stop investing in AI for Windows 11, and Agentic OS is the future, whether you like it or not.


Read the original article

Comments

  • By ChicagoDave 2025-11-184:5020 reply

    Microsoft has gone full-blown evil corporation again. No customer validation on any of the AI cruft. No full OPT OUT. Office products are bastardized with copilot buttons everywhere.

    I've been a Windows user from day one and I now see a future without it. Satya had been a bright spot in Microsoft, but this blind lust for AI, especially in bed with Altman who is pure con artist, is unforgivable.

    Some of the investment sells recently are starting to look like the beginning of the end for OpenAI. That will have a wide range impact on everything.

    I use Claude for coding (and mostly in WSL). OpenAI enabled its users to have a sext conversation.

    Seriously. And Satya just keeps on at full speed.

    • By npteljes 2025-11-189:172 reply

      Microsoft was never not a full-blown evil corporation. What they had, at their peak, is some software that worked well. In the background, same evil corporation as ever.

      I can't even write a top example why. Just take a glance at the documentation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft

      • By close04 2025-11-1813:514 reply

        There was a time when it looked like they were less "evil". There was a period punctuated by less anticompetitive behavior, embracing open source, no significant user-hostile moves, etc. and naively it did look like they are focused on the product not on abusing competitors or users. Can't say if this was a step in a carefully crafted plan, or just made business sense to be like this at the time. But Microsoft did look less evil for a brief time.

        • By ptx 2025-11-1814:371 reply

          That sounds consistent with their classic embrace-extend-extinguish process [1]. Embracing with no significant user-hostile moves is step 1, and then abusing competitors and users comes as step 3 of the process. They need to briefly look less evil in step 1 to maneuver into position for step 3.

          [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

          • By wkat4242 2025-11-198:55

            Yes because they were embracing new markets. They've always followed this process but they made a big paradigm change at that point. This is why they suddenly "loved Linux". Because it was no longer a threat but a tool to them, as they were shifting from being an OS vendor to hyperscale cloud vendor.

            The same way with other big American tech. Netflix operated for a decade at a loss and now that they saturated the market they are constantly asking more money for less content.

        • By wartywhoa23 2025-11-1820:281 reply

          > embracing open source

          They needed to grab as much free code as they could to train their AI, so what better way could there be than setting up the GitHub honeypot for this sole purpose, evangelize The Greater Good Of The Open Source, and play along a bit as in "we do open source too, don't be shy to show your code to our gradient descent, erm, we mean world!"

          • By Jenk 2025-11-1823:53

            It started long before that. Cloud meant they were under drastic threat of being abandoned, because the cloud was (and still is) dominated by linux compute.

            DotNet were shook, and shook bad. They went all out to make their runtime "cross-platform" because they faced an existential thread from lamdba+node.

            The rise of the MBP also saw their dotnet ecosystem under thread from the other end of the stick - the developer end. Visual Studio cannot run on macos, so competitor IDEs that can were rising in their numbers. Hence the push for VSCode to try and claw back some IDE market.

        • By npteljes 2025-11-1813:59

          Looks-wise, I agree, the "MS heart Linux" era was better than the current one.

        • By LocalH 2025-11-195:16

          EEE

      • By 6510 2025-11-1814:11

        They haven't discovered side loading.

    • By luke727 2025-11-185:4412 reply

      > Office products are bastardized with copilot buttons everywhere.

      They put copilot in notepad. NOTEPAD.

      • By torginus 2025-11-187:273 reply

        This is the funniest thing, considering it lacks 90% of the features included freeware text editors written in some student's spare time back in the 90s.

        It's basically a fancy textbox.

        Microsoft's own people can't use the toolkits they write, as evidenced by the React component in the start menu(!)

        • By pjmlp 2025-11-188:108 reply

          They can, the problem is that apparently they aren't able to hire people nowadays with Win32 development experience, so they get interns that have grown in US universities with macOS and Linux, which sundenly have a Win32 developer role.

          That is how you end up with web garbage in what was supposed to be native code, or .NET.

          I think this is also a reason why WinUI efforts went down the drain.

          • By int_19h 2025-11-188:493 reply

            They laid off a lot of people with Win32 experience in the past couple of years. If that was really a problem they could just hire some of them back (or, I dunno, keep them in the first place).

            • By torginus 2025-11-197:581 reply

              It's weird that Linux people are still seething to this day that the reason for Linux's lack of success on the desktop comes from the unfair pushing of Windows, when it's clear that Microsoft has been barely putting any effort into Windows, and gutting development save for AI stuff.

              I'm sure Microsoft would be perfectly fine ditching Windows as long as they could keep pushing Teams, Azure AD and Office 365 to companies.

              It's crazy how no one actually competently working towards a shared goal is invested in the desktop OS game any more.

              Linux people still have some fire left in them, but lack organization and shared vision to deliver a high quality product in a timely manner. macOS is the best contender, but other than pushing weird mobile-driven UX design and locking down the OS, the macOS of today hasn't changed that much from the OS X of 20 years ago.

              • By wkat4242 2025-11-199:05

                I'm a Linux user but I don't understand the drive of Linux users for it to be a mainstream OS. If it would be mainstream it would be more commercial, the users having less agency, having no choice in desktop environment and tied to commercial services. Because once it's big, big companies will want to make big bucks off the people using it. And most consumers actually like big tech companies taking them by the hand and choosing for them.

                So in other words, Linux on the desktop will be a Linux I will hate. The closest thing to Linux for the mainstream we have is ChromeOS and I'm sure we all hate it. I sure do because I want nothing to do with Google services.

                In other words, be careful what you ask for.

            • By dansmith1919 2025-11-189:571 reply

              Keep them?? But how else would you keep devs working hard if there are no mass layoffs to be afraid of all the time??

              • By the_other 2025-11-1813:382 reply

                Get them working on interesting projects building things customers/users/peers will value.

                • By estimator7292 2025-11-1813:59

                  What are you, some kinda communist?

                • By hat_monger 2025-11-1814:511 reply

                  > building things customers/users/peers will value.

                  AI. Customers want AI, users want AI, peers want AI. If anyone says otherwise, they’re a Luddite and possibly a dangerous political radical.

                  • By int_19h 2025-11-190:101 reply

                    I'm no longer at MSFT, but according to the people that are, the leadership is straight up saying that anyone who doesn't like AI coding has no place in the company now.

                    • By pjmlp 2025-11-1912:54

                      Unfortunely, they are making people like myself, that in general tend to have comments more pro-Windows, starting to consider the alternatives yet again.

                      Even .NET and C++ tooling getting spoiled with AI no matter what, see latest set of DevBlog announcements.

            • By pjmlp 2025-11-1810:401 reply

              Agreed, or I don't know, actually promote internal trainings for the folks that lack the experience.

              The problem isn't hiring people that only know macOS/Linux, we always argue about how bad HR hiring processes are in our field.

              The problem is apparently the lack of management motivation to bring those peoples up to speed, and is confortable pushing for Web widgets instead.

              • By johnisgood 2025-11-1811:572 reply

                I do not know what is up with people and their aversion to help people be better (or at the very least more useful) at their job. Not just in IT, but even hard / physical labor-type jobs or w/e.

                • By toyg 2025-11-1813:371 reply

                  In a culture obsessed with individual success, helping someone else does not have any obvious upside, but plenty of clear downsides - what if he gets so good that I look worse in comparison? What if he stays the same and I look like a bad mentor? Why would I sacrifice my time for no practical reward? Etc etc.

                  • By johnisgood 2025-11-1813:49

                    Yeah I understand that and I was thinking the same things, but it honestly sucks. I have been in a position where I was supposed to be taught the work on the spot but instead they expected me to know everything and do what I have never done before and it is such a bad experience. :/

                • By estimator7292 2025-11-1814:02

                  It costs money. You're paying that person to be doing something other than working. If you're not squeezing maximal productivity out of your workers, then you have failed as a manager and will not be getting that sweet bonus this quarter

          • By ponector 2025-11-1811:211 reply

            >> they aren't able to hire people nowadays with Win32 development

            They can hire pretty much anyone. They choose to not hire people with Win32 experience. They choose to implement hiring process which results in hire other kind of people.

            • By torginus 2025-11-198:02

              Do you honestly think you could hire a staff a project (requiring hundreds) with young(ish) people of at least decent skills who all know Win32/COM/C/C++?

          • By deafpolygon 2025-11-1810:301 reply

            > this is also a reason why WinUI efforts went down the drain.

            That may be, but there is PLENTY of people with the expertise to develop WinUI apps -- IMO, the glaring problem would be that Microsoft can't get their head straight on which UI to support in the first place!

            • By pjmlp 2025-11-1810:381 reply

              Win32, Windows Forms, WPF, even MFC, I do agree.

              WinUI, only Microsoft employees on the Windows team, and fools that aren't aware of all the WinRT tooling reboots since Windows 8 was introduced, buying into WinUI marketing of how great it is.

              As one of the fools that thought WinRT was a great idea, what .NET 1.0 should have been, I doubt there are many of those left.

              WPF wasn't brought back into active status at BUILD 2024 by accident.

          • By phito 2025-11-1812:38

            But who is letting interns with no experience take architectural and technological decisions for a core feature such as the start menu? These are the people that should be blamed.

          • By bluescrn 2025-11-1813:541 reply

            Yet Apple can find decent developers to work with their Apple-specific tools+tech.

            Yeah, there's been complaints about some Apple's old polish and consistency being lost, but it's usually very nitpicky stuff, nothing compared to the complaints about Win11.

            • By pjmlp 2025-11-1814:511 reply

              Have you actually tried out Tahoe with Liquid Glass?

              • By commakozzi 2025-11-1916:55

                It's my daily driver. I have zero problems with it. I don't mind the Liquid Glass UX. I'm not blindly anti-Apple though, neither am I a fanboi. I've just legitimately not had any problems. There have been minor bugs, etc., but nothing broken. Definitely night and day from Win11....

          • By curiousgal 2025-11-189:20

            I personally think this is a symptom of tech companies hiring leetcoders.

          • By mghackerlady 2025-11-1815:49

            You're only half right, a lot of these devs probably use Windows but since JSwhatever is the current lingua franca of programming it's easier to hire for

          • By rvba 2025-11-1813:47

            Do they hire from US universities?

            I thought most work is outsourced now.

        • By rightbyte 2025-11-189:072 reply

          > It's basically a fancy textbox.

          That was the lure.

          But the real Notepad has been decommissioned and there is some bloated one now.

          • By exe34 2025-11-1811:034 reply

            Is notepad++ still a thing? I only use Windows as a dumb terminal now.

            • By monegator 2025-11-1811:512 reply

              Yes.

              The two applications i miss on my linux boxes are notepad++ (though Kate is a good substitute) and GitExtensions

              • By graemep 2025-11-1913:141 reply

                Out of curiosity, what does notepad++ have that kate of other texteditors does not?

                Looking at the features there does not seem to be anything special, but a lot of people seem to love it so there is clearly something special about it.

                • By autoexec 2025-11-1916:19

                  For me it's the TextFX menu and the MIME Tools plug in. They offer very easy access to lots of handy features like changing case (upper, lower, proper, sentence, invert), remove/swap/replace quotes ('/"), removing trailing spaces, non-printable characters, and blank lines (or just extra blank lines), base64/URL/HTML/ROT13/UU encoding/decoding, all kinds of decimal/hex/binary/octal/text conversions, add/remove escapes, etc.

                  Having so much there in just a couple clicks is very nice!

              • By 0x000xca0xfe 2025-11-1812:511 reply

                Notepad++ works pretty well with Wine, too.

            • By rightbyte 2025-11-1815:59

              Ye about the only app I miss on my Debian systems.

            • By pjmlp 2025-11-1811:151 reply

              Yes, happy user and donations contributor over here.

            • By serf 2025-11-1811:101 reply

              yeah, and it's still one of things in Windows that is a pleasure to use when you need it.

              • By wolvesechoes 2025-11-1811:412 reply

                If it comes down to FOSS/freeware stuff I am actually quite fond of Windows ecosystem.

                Foobar2k, Paint.NET, Notepad++, IrfanView, WizTree, Ditto, TotalCommander, NAPS2 etc.

                Linux has many options for any of those, but I always had a feeling that those options have less polish, or are less stable, or their UI is an afterthought etc. On Windows you have basically a single option for each application that most people go for, so documentation and online help is plentiful.

                • By kakacik 2025-11-1814:151 reply

                  > Foobar2k, Notepad++, IrfanView, TotalCommander

                  Without those, especially last one my productivity at my corporate work would be half at most. Editing a file in an archive within another archive directly, doing quick file comparisons of 2 files, syncing different dirs, fulltext recursive search... all with much better UI than Unix console counterparts (which I use too). And much more.

                  Simply the best tools on the whole market for me in given category, period.

                  • By wolvesechoes 2025-11-1815:21

                    I forgot about 7zip as well.

                    There is something magical about those specialized, no nonsense tools using WINAPI, not chasing cross-platform, and maintained for decades, some of them since 90s. Snappiness, intuitiveness, stability, discoverability etc.

                • By anthk 2025-11-1817:521 reply

                  MPD, Krita, Vim/Emacs/Scite,NSxiv with scripts, any diff tool since the 90's, any file manager since Midnight Commander and so on...

                  Less stable? MPD supported damn state supported popular science radio streaming channels in Spain like nothing...

                  Also vidir, entr and jimtcl/awk scripts p0wn your setup any time... I can just remote-mount FS's anywhere and use any local tools as if they where there. I can just spawn builds on directory changes and spawn an editor with a REPL in miliseconds. GUI? Everything it's composable. I can use a mega-complete GUI for MPD that makes Foobar2k blush. I can output audio to an streaming socket (or to plain Icecast) from MPD and plug any audio FX' and whatnot with MPD plugins.

                  I can push the whole graphical environment down and I could keep playing my music and control the whole music daemon from my phone. Add songs, add radio stream, play/skip, volume up and down... from my damn bathroom.

                  And OFC I can still code under VTY's and even read PDF's/CBZ's/EPUB's and even watch videos play any game or emulator which uses SDL (a ton of source ports, emulators like mednafen, Doom/Quake ports, Scummvm, DOSBox, PCSXR, PPSPPP)...

                  That without touching a mouse or switching between GUI's. No RSI, no headaches, no remote GUI tools to mount any crap requiring thousands of click and hurting your wrists and forearms. Everything it's under a directory and managed as it if were part of my hard disk filesystem.

                  I can edit directory listings with my text editor with the vidir tool, they will show up as a text file. You delete a range of lines, these files are gone. I can search and rename files at crazy speeds and, well, I can spawn any tool with find and iomenu and have a quick search for a file. File managers? Forget it, you keep typing and the fuzzy-finding tool with match the file in milseconds and open the registered tool for that extensions. And this is done with tools that could probably run in the 80's and early 90's. Go figure, I'm computing as if it was in 2040 but with 'prehistoric' tools.

                  Ah, don't forget that most CLI and TUI tools are scriptable... so you can just forget of even using a computer, 90% of the tasks can complete themselves via cron, the time scheduler under Unix.

                  • By wolvesechoes 2025-11-1821:121 reply

                    I am not sure why you've put so much effort, but thank you for confirming my views on Linux people.

                    • By anthk 2025-11-190:061 reply

                      Is not about Linux, I don't use that Unix branch. I don't click neither on menues nor buttons. It's about usability and automation, something utterly lacking under Windows. Once you can use any remote or local filesystem seamlessly with your own scripts spawning at events, you are 90% done.

                      • By mafuy 2025-11-1918:30

                        I've switched all my machines to linux in the past couple years.

                        I say with confidence that you will never be able to do file operations as quickly in a terminal as you could in a good GUI, like the Explorer from Windows 2000.

          • By x______________ 2025-11-197:18

            Uninstall bloated version and the AI-less stock version of Notepad returns.

        • By aarond0623 2025-11-1812:09

          It's not even a competent textbox. Try to scan barcodes into it for example, or use it with Autohotkey. It has some sort of buffering issue and lags horribly whenever characters are input faster than a human.

      • By Springtime 2025-11-187:505 reply

        And this W11 version of Notepad takes longer to open than Sublime Text and about equal to Firefox. On NVMe.

        It used to be instant, which is something you really notice the difference with when it changes.

        • By iamtedd 2025-11-1810:194 reply

          The fucking start menu used to be an actual windows component that opened instantaneously. It's a web app now, sometimes taking seconds to open.

          I also noticed a lot of the time windows just ignores me double clicking on things in file explorer, leaving me to sit there wondering if I have to do it again.

          • By Delk 2025-11-1818:201 reply

            Now that we're ranting, I wonder what's up with the right-click context menu in Windows 11 on my machines. It literally takes a noticeable fraction of a second (in the order of several hundred ms) for the menu with fewer than ten items to appear. (The first time might take around a second, I'd suppose due to disk I/O. But subsequent clicks also have a noticeable delay.)

            All the computers with Windows 11 that are available to me are fairly similar so I don't know if it's just these particular software/hardware setups. But it seems absurd that a device capable of billions of operations per second even on a single core somehow takes hundreds of milliseconds to display a few menu items.

            • By tencentshill 2025-11-1820:03

              Your clicks need a round-trip to Redmond so they can sign off on it. It's for the greater good you see.

          • By z500 2025-11-1813:06

            On my 5 year old work laptop it was so bad it was nearly unusable. I found that disabling the shell extensions they used to implement the new file explorer UI helped a lot with that.

          • By satiric 2025-11-193:23

            Only the Recommended section is react. The rest is WinUI.

          • By spacechild1 2025-11-1820:551 reply

            > The fucking start menu used to be an actual windows component that opened instantaneously. It's a web app now

            This is disgusting! Who even comes up with ideas like that?

            • By Grimblewald 2025-11-1913:24

              intern supervised by copilot most likely.

        • By Yizahi 2025-11-1811:15

          They made the damned system volume regulator open with a visible delay now. You can click on it and observe it at 0 level, and then after some seconds it jumps to the actual position. After they threw out Win10 taskbar and replaced it with this rejected tablet atrocity in Win11, everything got much slower on it.

        • By Neil44 2025-11-187:572 reply

          The only reason I use Notepad is that it opens instantly. A fancy think with loads of features that's slow to open should be a new product.

          • By prirai 2025-11-188:231 reply

            Notepad--

            • By hotsauceror 2025-11-1812:27

              This made me spit out my coffee, thanks.

          • By bondarchuk 2025-11-1810:171 reply

            That was WordPad, right? Except it also loaded instantly, probably.

            • By Neil44 2025-11-1812:512 reply

              Wordpad was good for some stuff, I forget what, iirc it loaded in 0.1 seconds vs 0.01 for notepad.exe

              • By toyg 2025-11-1813:561 reply

                > Wordpad was good for some stuff, I forget what

                It was a proper WYSIWYG editor working with rich text, effectively a poor man's Word.

                Microsoft should have turned it into a markdown editor, instead of killing it.

                • By Neil44 2025-11-1816:351 reply

                  It was, and worked well with rtf. I vaguely recall it being better than notepad if you were for example looking at strings in binary files, something like that, I forget...

                  • By vrighter 2025-11-2114:16

                    I often used it to convert unix style line endings to windows. Notepad choked on those, wordpad could load them easily, and just resaving them as a txt file converted them to windows line endings.

              • By inejge 2025-11-1818:46

                IIRC Wordpad was the only always-installed program which could open text files with Unix line endings and display them properly. Until at least Vista, Notepad would treat them as if containing a single line.

        • By injidup 2025-11-189:43

          Opens instantly on my machine. It takes the same amount of time as neovim.

          Now if you want to complain about something then vscode takes 12 seconds to load

        • By natebc 2025-11-1810:331 reply

          Wait till you open the humble calculator.

          • By FridayoLeary 2025-11-1813:21

            It's an amazing technical feat how they managed to introduce a graphical delay to it in Windows 10. I feel it actually took planning to work out how to introduce friction into easily the simplest conceivable app for no reason. It is a microcosm of everything that's wrong with Windows today.

      • By bux93 2025-11-1810:183 reply

        They put a copilot button in Outlook. Which, when ask, gladly confesses it doesn't have access to your mail or calendar, completely negating any value it could possibly have.

        • By eurekin 2025-11-1810:52

          My personal headcannon is, that it's mostly for telemetrics and KPI scamming, so stakeholders can reap the bonus based on engagement metrics

        • By gavinward 2025-11-1813:57

          The same with the AI thing Meta added to Whatsapp. After spending a while trying to search for a message whose exact wording I couldn't remember, but whose content was easily described, I thought I'd give the bot a try. Turns out it doesn't have access to my messages.

          I expect MS will get there long before Meta does given they don't have the encryption issue to contend with.

        • By steve1977 2025-11-1810:56

          Just Microsoft doing Microsoft things. Cue the James Franco First Time? meme...

      • By dspillett 2025-11-1810:422 reply

        > They put copilot in notepad. NOTEPAD.

        Every time I see a new CoPilot button, or a toast nagging me because I've not clicked any of them and they think I really should want to, a phrase crosses my mind…

        “Thank you the marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation”

        • By tavavex 2025-11-1820:36

          > “Thank you the marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation”

          I pasted this into Google to see what you were referencing, and was met with this full-screen, front page, all-important "AI Overview" (that of course takes precedence over actual search results)

          > You're very welcome! If you have any questions about the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation's products, their marketing strategies, or need assistance with anything else, feel free to ask.

          Full circle.

        • By wtallis 2025-11-1817:231 reply

          Don't play along by calling it "toast". It's a pop-up that's been re-branded to avoid the stigma of the old name, exactly like what companies do to themselves after causing a disaster like an oil spill.

          • By dspillett 2025-11-193:161 reply

            You are conflating two similar but different UI elements.

            A popup is a larger object, often a full window, that covers large parts of other elements or sometimes the entire screen. They are sometimes modal.

            A toast is a smaller element, appearing (often by sliding into view upwards, hence the cutesy name) in or above a specific notification area of the application or the overall OS. These are much smaller, seldom modal and often convey useful notifications or warnings, unlike popups (especially modal ones) that are often either useless or actively, deliberately, in the way.

            While it is correct to call then both popups if you wish, "toasts" are generally considered a specific subset.

            • By 1718627440 2025-11-1918:19

              To me the first would be called a modal window or a message box, while the latter is what I would call a popup. I guess different exposure with different UI kits.

      • By sixtyj 2025-11-189:44

        What is Copilot good for in Notepad? :)

        It is like a carpet raid. Bomb everything with Copilot agent…

        It is funny but it is not.

      • By M95D 2025-11-187:412 reply

        That's not Notepad. They may call it Notepad, but it isn't.

        • By netsharc 2025-11-1817:21

          NotePilot 365...

        • By coqadoodle 2025-11-188:172 reply

          They call Wordpad write.exe!

          • By Sharlin 2025-11-1810:46

            For backwards compatibility, of course, with pre-95 programs that have write.exe hardcoded.

          • By M95D 2025-11-188:201 reply

            They still have Wordpad? :O

            • By int_19h 2025-11-188:49

              It got removed last year.

      • By Krssst 2025-11-1814:12

        For reference: you can get the regular notepad back by just uninstalling Notepad from the control panel (the new one, with big buttons and less features). Since it's possible using the regular UI without particular shenanigans, I assume this is fully supported.

      • By ChicagoDave 2025-11-189:353 reply

        Notepad++ is always a default install on any new Windows PC. Who on earth uses Notepad?

        • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-11-189:491 reply

          So its gonna sound weird, but some companies really have strict policies and notepad there is ok, but notepad++ isn't. Usually, there is some way to get exceptions, but those tend to require more effort than it is usually worth it. I guess what I am saying it: it is not always by choice:D

          • By haspok 2025-11-1811:241 reply

            I've worked for banks in the past (actually, working for one right now), and they always had Notepad++ available - at least for me, as a developer.

            There are no licensing issues, no fees to pay, no support to pay. It really is free, even in a commercial environment.

            • By Delk 2025-11-1818:39

              Lots of organizations have a blanket ban on any third-party software that wasn't specifically approved by IT. Being free might help it get cleared but that's nowhere sufficient. Since Notepad comes with Windows, it's probably always there and never banned. (Although of course the cloud-based LLM integration might actually be a problem.)

              With that said, I think I've also had NotePad++ made available by IT at all employers and clients that had me use Windows even when the desktop setup was otherwise quite restricted. It's a rather established tool after all and probably considered a safe and reputable bet even by somewhat conservative IT leadership.

        • By ndsipa_pomu 2025-11-1811:101 reply

          If it's a windows-based server, there's probably little need to do much text editing, so installing Notepad++ wouldn't be needed or desired. Then, you suddenly need to copy/paste/amend some text, so you end up opening Notepad. My use of it is typically if I'm connecting remotely to the Windows desktop and am not sure if the keymap is correct when typing in a password, so I type it into Notepad to make sure I'm putting in what I think I'm typing.

          • By funnybeam 2025-11-1812:52

            Except the new notepad autosaves so I can no longer trust it for temporary password storage.

            Thanks Microsoft for making everything worse

            I feel sorry for the younger generations, they’ll never know what it was like to use computers that weren’t actively trying to shaft you all the time

        • By kakacik 2025-11-1814:41

          I do, when I have tons of tabs in Nodepad++ and then need some other notes of different priority/context in explicitly another window that looks visually different to Notepad++ :)

          Aaaand... thats about it, even Total commander's built in text editor is more powerful.

      • By dimensional_dan 2025-11-186:361 reply

        Maybe it can finally get the new lines correct for a given application? ;-)

        • By userbinator 2025-11-187:001 reply

          A choice of line endings was one of the few good things they did to Notepad, but that was in the Windows 10 era.

          • By RestartKernel 2025-11-187:31

            I remember it being pretty nice to explicitly choose encoding too.

      • By Zardoz84 2025-11-187:47

        I found that the other day, in a co-worker computer ...

      • By NetOpWibby 2025-11-188:272 reply

        WTF!! JFC

        CotEditor on Mac is the closest to Notepad I’ve felt in years. Gotta wonder what the end game at Microsoft is.

        • By yetihehe 2025-11-189:07

          This is endgame. They are at the stage when everything in game is already done and they are lazingly trying to do some sidequests, like stacking the most cheese you can in a room.

        • By gavinward 2025-11-1814:04

          The endgame is getting corporate customers hooked on cloud-hosted subscription-model everything, then jacking the prices up.

      • By alentred 2025-11-1810:14

        I bet it was the MVP. LOL

    • By jen729w 2025-11-185:561 reply

      Meanwhile have you used the latest Excel for Mac?

      1. Open a sheet. Type anything.

      2. Hide Excel (Cmd+H).

      3. Bring Excel forth.

      4. Stare at a blank screen where your grid should be for anywhere from 0.5 to 3 seconds.

      • By hulitu 2025-11-187:19

        > 4. Stare at a blank screen where your grid should be for anywhere from 0.5 to 3 seconds.

        It is because is drawing the 3D surface with your Excel cells. It's not Microsoft's fault that you didn't buy a decent graphics card. /s

    • By Al-Khwarizmi 2025-11-188:004 reply

      > OpenAI enabled its users to have a sext conversation.

      Considering that this is only with verified adults, how is this "evil"? I find it more evil to treat full grown adult users as kids and heavily censor their use of LLMs.

      (Not to detract from the rest of your post, with which I agree).

      • By wkat4242 2025-11-199:09

        That's true. Most of my local models are uncensored. I don't want that prude culture pushed on me. And it also stops AI from working correctly because a lot of stuff I talk about with my friends is sexual and it's so annoying for an AI model to keep closing up.

      • By ChicagoDave 2025-11-189:284 reply

        My point is not about morality. It’s about ROI focus and that OpenAI can’t and won’t ever return anything remotely close to what’s been invested. Adult content is not getting them closer to profitability.

        And if anyone believes the AGI hyperbole, oh boy I have a bridge and a mountain to sell.

        LLM tech will never lead to AGI. You need a tech that mimics synapses. It doesn’t exist.

        • By kbrkbr 2025-11-1812:292 reply

          I have also a hard time understanding how AGI will magically appear.

          LLMs have their name for a reason: they model human language (output given an input) from human text (and other artifacts).

          And now the idea seems to be that when we do more of it, or make it even larger, it will stop to be a model of human language generation? Or that human language generation is all there is to AGI?

          I wish someone could explain the claim to me...

          • By cdblades 2025-11-1813:22

            Because the first couple major iterations looked like exponential improvements, and, because VC/private money is stupid, they assumed the trend must continue on the same curve.

            And because there's something in the human mind that has a very strong reaction to being talked to, and because LLMs are specifically good at mimicking plausible human speech patterns, chatGPT really, really hooked a lot of people (including said VC/private money people).

          • By hackinthebochs 2025-11-1813:41

            LLMs aren't language models, but are a general purpose computing paradigm. LLMs are circuit builders, the converged parameters define pathways through the architecture that pick out specific programs. Or as Karpathy puts it, LLMs are a differentiable computer[1]. Training LLMs discovers programs that well reproduce the input sequence. Roughly the same architecture can generate passable images, music, or even video.

            It's not that language generation is all there is to AGI, but that to sufficiently model text that is about the wide range of human experiences, we need to model those experiences. LLMs model the world to varying degrees, and perhaps in the limit of unbounded training data, they can model the human's perspective in it as well.

            [1] https://x.com/karpathy/status/1582807367988654081

        • By hackinthebochs 2025-11-1811:421 reply

          >LLM tech will never lead to AGI. You need a tech that mimics synapses. It doesn’t exist.

          Why would you think synapses (or their dynamics) are required for AGI rather than being incidental owing to the constraints of biology?

          (This discussion never goes anywhere productive but I can't help myself from asking)

          • By wkat4242 2025-11-199:15

            It doesn't have to be synapses but it should follow a similar structure. If we want it to think like us it should be like us.

            LLM are really good at pretending to be intelligent but I don't think they'll ever overcome the "pretend" part.

        • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-11-189:512 reply

          << LLM tech will never lead to AGI.

          I suspect this may be one of those predictions that may not quite pan out. I am not saying it is a given, but never is about as unlikely.

          • By tim333 2025-11-1912:131 reply

            The words 'lead to' there cover a lot. I don't think we'll get AGI just by giving more compute to the models but modifying the algorithms could cover a lot of things.

            Like at the moment I think during training new data changes all the model weights which is very compute intensive and makes it hard to learn new things after training. The human brain seems to do it in a more compartmentalised way - learning about a new animal say does not rewrite the neurons for playing chess or speaking French for example. You could maybe modify the LLM algo along those lines without throwing it away entirely.

            • By vrighter 2025-11-2114:22

              The need for new data seems like it has outpaced the rate at which real data is being generated. And most of the new data is llm slop.

              So you might improve algorithms (by doing matrix multiplications in a different order.... it's always matrix multiplications) but you'll be feeding them junk.

              So they need ever increasing amounts of data but they are also the cause of the ever increasing shortage of good data. They have dug their own grave.

          • By saltwatercowboy 2025-11-189:562 reply

            ...Why?

            • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-11-1810:07

              Because always/never are absolutes that are either very easy or very hard to see through. For example, 'I will never die', 'I will never tell a lie', 'I will never eat a pie' all suffer through this despite dying being the most implausible. And it gets worse as we get most abstract:

              'Machine will always know where to go from here on now'.

            • By cosmosgenius 2025-11-1810:222 reply

              AGI might be possible with more Param+Data scaling for LLM. It is not completely within the realm of impossible given that there is no proof yet of "limits" of LLM. Current limitation is definitely on the hardware side.

              • By ChicagoDave 2025-11-1812:022 reply

                This is what I'm talking about. The correct tech would enable the strands of information in a vector to "see" each other and "talk" to each other without any intervention. This isn't the same as using a shovel to bash someone's head in. AGI would need tech that finds a previously undocumented solution to a problem by relating many things together, making a hypothesis, testing it, proving it, then acting on it. LLM tech will never do this. Something else might. Maybe someone will invent Asimov's positronic brain.

                I think _maybe_ quantum computing might be the tech that moves AGI closer. But I'm 99.9999% certain it won't be LLM tech. (Even I can't seriously say 100% for most things, though I am 100% certain a monkey will not fly out of my butt today)

                • By cosmosgenius 2025-11-1813:28

                  Quantum compute would definite make a leap to moving closer to AGI. Calculating probability vector is very natural for quantum computer or more precisely any analog compute system would do. qubits==size(vocab) with some acceptable precision would work i believe.

                • By cosmosgenius 2025-11-1813:14

                  LMAO! That Bruce Almighty reference had me rolling. Good one.

              • By capyba 2025-11-1811:531 reply

                The processing capability of today’s CPU’s and GPU’s is insane. From handheld devices to data centers, the capability to manipulate absurd amounts of data in fractions of a second is everywhere.

                It’s not the hardware, it’s the algorithms.

                • By cosmosgenius 2025-11-1813:20

                  Maybe it is the algorithms. But just by doing a op for an 10^25 param llm is definitely not feasible on todays hardware. Emergent properties does happen at high density. Emergent properties might even look as AGI.

        • By akoboldfrying 2025-11-1811:30

          I don't see what is so complicated about modelling a synapse. Doesn't AlmostAnyNonLinearFunc(sum of weighted inputs) work well enough?

      • By The_President 2025-11-1814:142 reply

        Ok so for that matter let's pose this hypothetical... How would you feel if Disney or Nintendo produced adult content for verified adults?

        • By sdoering 2025-11-1814:241 reply

          Why should anyone feel anything offensive about that? Or why would anyone get offended over this? I really do not understand what the issue would be.

          • By wkat4242 2025-11-199:311 reply

            The whole "porn is a poison to society" narrative is very strong with conservatives now. A lot of them (here in Holland even) want it banned like it's Afghanistan and for everyone to have a family with lots of kids that has their dinner at 6pm after prayer.

            I also don't subscribe to that. I'm polyamorous and sex-positive. And very LGBTIQ friendly. But I've seen that attitude a lot even in Europe :( especially from the emerging extreme right parties.

            I don't really understand it either. Why is it any of their business what I do? I don't tell them they can't have a big traditional family. Why are they so preoccupied with me.

            • By sdoering 2025-11-1914:171 reply

              Couldn't agree more. I am cis-het in a long relationship, childfree by choice.

              But don't think conservative ideology/politics is about making their rules your rules. Or at least being bound by their rules. I mean: If Musk doesn't like what someone says, they get blocked from Twitter (or in case of German political parties, downranked, so that the far right is ranking higher/being recommended more often on X). But they (like Musk) claim "free speech" for themselves. Meaning, they want to say what they feel like without consequences.

              I found this interesting "law" by Frank Wilhoit:

              > Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.

              • By wkat4242 2025-11-1914:51

                Well in my country (Holland) I see a lot more hate. Even when I wear a rainbow wristband in June I get insulted by groups of extreme right guys. This didn't use to happen.

                The thing is if you're not protected you don't really have free speech.

        • By wkat4242 2025-11-199:17

          Pretty good actually. I use adult games in steam too and I sure use it on streaming. And most people do, they just don't talk about it.

      • By logicprog 2025-11-188:523 reply

        Yeah the disapproval/disgust I'm seeing everywhere, from pretty much every side that I keep my eye on, about OpenAI enabling erotica generation with ChatGPT is so frustrating, because it seems like just Puritanism and censorship, and desiring to treat adults like children as you say.

        • By GrinningFool 2025-11-1812:472 reply

          The issues that these pseudo-relationships can cause have barely begun to be discussed, nevermind studied and understood.

          We know that they exist, and not only for people with known mental health issues. And that's all we know. But the industry will happily brush that aside in order to drive up those sweet MAU and MRR numbers. One of those, "I'm willing to sacrifice [a percentage of the population] for market share and profit" situations.

          Edits: grammar

          • By kakacik 2025-11-1814:552 reply

            That's kind of patronizing position or maybe a conservative one (in US terms). There can be harm, there can be good, nobody can say at this moment for sure which is more.

            Do you feel the same about say alcohol and cigarettes? We allow those, heck we encourage those in some situations for adults yet they destroy whole societies (look at russia with alcohol, look at Indonesia for cigarettes if you haven't been there).

            I see a lot of points to discuss and study but none to ban with parent's topic.

            • By GrinningFool 2025-11-1820:03

              I'm really not suggesting a ban, there's no way that would fly.

              I'm suggesting restraint and responsibility on the part of the organization pushing this. When do we learn that being reactive after the harm is done isn't actually a required method of doing business? That it's okay to slow down even if there's a short-term opportunity cost?

              This applies just as much to the push for LLMs everywhere as it does OpenAI's specific intention to support sexbots.

              But it's all the same pattern. Push for as much as we can, as fast as we can, at as broad a scale as we can -- and deal with the consequences only when we can't ignore them anymore. (And if we can keep that to a bare minimum, that would be best for the bottom line.)

            • By insane_dreamer 2025-11-1815:13

              We did finally come around to the point of restricting advertising and sale of cigarettes, and limiting where you could smoke, to where it is much less prevalent in today's generation than earlier generations.

              The issue is it becoming ubiquitous in an effort to make money.

          • By jamincan 2025-11-1814:20

            People form parasocial relationships with AI already with content restrictions in place. It seems to me that that is a separate issue entirely.

        • By poolnoodle 2025-11-189:041 reply

          It is not bad per se but in my opinion it shows that OpenAI is desperately trying to stop bleeding money.

          • By logicprog 2025-11-189:111 reply

            I mean, their issue isn't that not enough users are using ChatGPT, so they need to enable new user modalities to draw more people in — they already have something like 800 million MAU. Their issue is that most of their tokens are generated free right now both from those users and stuff like CoPilot, and they're building stupidly huge unnecessary data enters to scale their way to "AGI." So yeah, everyone says this looks like a sign of desperation, but I just don't see it at all, because it would solve a problem they don't actually have (not enough people finding GPT useful).

            • By cdblades 2025-11-1813:16

              If you re--calibrate from any lofty idea of their motives to "get investor money now", this and other moves/announcements make more sense: anything that could look good to an investor.

              User count going up? Sure.

              New browser that will deeply integrate chatGPT into users lives and give OAI access to their browsing/shopping data? Sure

              Several new hardware products that are totally coming in the next several months? Sure

              We're totally going to start delivering ads? Sure

              We're making commitments to all these compute providers because our growth is totally going to warrant it? Sure

              Oh, since we're investing in all of that compute, we're also going to become a compute vendor! Sure

              None of it is particularly intentional, strategic, or sound. OAI is a money pit, they can always see the end of the runway, and must secure funding now. That is their perpetual state.

        • By hofrogs 2025-11-1814:32

          Looks like OpenAI can do anything it desires, but if an indie artist tries to take money for NSFW content, or even just make it for free publicly - they get barred from using payment processors and such.

    • By platevoltage 2025-11-188:321 reply

      I don't know if it's evil. It's more like desperate and stupid. They are rapidly losing their gaming dominance thanks to Valve. They've been losing the console wars. There doesn't seem to be a single person using Windows 11 that isn't being forced to in one way or another. Now they are forcing online accounts and injecting AI where it doesn't belong. How they still have willing customers is beyond me.

      • By fodkodrasz 2025-11-189:41

        Many people are using Win 11 out of free will, until they alienate them. The main problem is that they are alienating developers, and that they don't focus on anything they do everything half-heartedly (even AI).

        They abandoned the mobile phone market, where they couldn't decide to target businesess or consumers, so they let them both down.

        Same happens on the desktop, they are quickly eroding the platform advantage they had and leaving both hobbyists and home users and enterprises without a reason to choose them.

        They are pushing for the AI now, but in a way that is too controversial and is not acceptable nor for many individuals, nor for businesses, also doing so with forced hardware updates and high monthly costs.

        XBOX is being abandoned. They did venture into the streamed gaming topic, but abandoning, guess because all those powerful GPUs are needed for AI.

        Many core services are being abandoned, without alternatives, eg. Maps in windows was abandoned, without any successor. At least they could have created like a PWA wrapper for google/apple/osm, and put in a chooser facede on first start. It would have taken about 1 month for a single developer experienced in the windows relevant subsystems.

        Windows is still reliable, stable, decently fast and secure, but that is useless when you abandon it as a platform, you don't attract developer talent, you don't have a unified UI/UX language that differentiates you (if not with anything els then with its consistency), does not provide a more streamlined deployment and update flow than competitors, etc. Windows had these advantages, and is repidly loosing these.

    • By jscyc 2025-11-187:092 reply

      I opened my outlook android app today to find they'd replaced the archive button in the bottom toolbar with a "Summary by Copilot" one. It wasn't enough that the only colourful button is the Copilot one on the right.

      Thankfully they still let you reorder the buttons, so I moved archive back and hid that unwanted summary in the overflow menu.

      • By RobotToaster 2025-11-187:541 reply

        Once your coworkers start using copilot to turn what should be a single sentence email into six paragraphs, you'll need that to summarise it into a sentence.

        Progress!

        • By wiseowise 2025-11-188:37

          Yeah, but it will be very polite and full of corpospeak, which means that it is very insightful.

      • By everdrive 2025-11-1811:13

        >Thankfully they still let you

        They "let" you do fewer and fewer things with the computer you "own" every year.

    • By pjmlp 2025-11-188:15

      > Satya had been a bright spot in Microsoft,

      Not in what concerns Windows development, I miss "Developers, Developers, Developers" dance.

      UWP transition after Sinofsky was super bad managed, trying to rescue what was left of it as WinUI 3.0/WinAppSDK, killing C++/CX, C++/WinRT, .NET Native in the process is a bad joke on anyone that believed in the technology.

      Don't believe the WinUI marketing, the only reason left to use it, it being a Microsoft employee, or someone that just can't let go of UWP remains.

    • By userbinator 2025-11-186:073 reply

      "again"? What they did in the past seems absolutely neighbourly compared to what they're doing now.

      Get a VM of Windows 9x/2k/XP to experience what "good Microsoft" was like.

      • By BatteryMountain 2025-11-186:333 reply

        The other day I installed Windows 7 on a VM for fun.. it was not fun at all. I got weird wave of nostalgic sadness, like being teleported back in time, I felt/remembered how things were back in ~2010, the culture, my university life, how things were with an ex gf, ALL of it. The OS is engrained in my mind and it was gorgeous seeing those aero effects and hearing the startup sounds again. It is so simple and easy. It felt good so see & use it again.

        With Windows 11, although I mostly like the UI (rounded corners on a high dpi tablet also with rounded screen is amazing), it feels absolutely gross, in the corporate soulless sense. It feels mentally heavy top operate. I constantly had to battle it to get it to work the way I want it.

        These days all my devices are running Fedora with KDE, which is just the best. You basically set it up once the way you like it, and it won't change by itself for months. It is a buttery smooth experience and have had zero need to go back to Windows yet.

        If anyone want the same level one-ness with your computer like back in Windows XP & Windows 7 days, give KDE a try. Fedora is pretty simple distro to get used to if you want a good starting point.

        • By type0 2025-11-1810:55

          > It feels mentally heavy

          I mentioned to a friend recently that W11 is so difficult to use compared to Linux like Mint nowadays. He didn't understand it, though he tried Mint a decade ago but kept using Windows 10, upgraded to 11, continues to have driver problems with his laptop, some weeks network card stops working some weeks his sound card drops out completely. He uses usb dongles intermittently, it reminds me how I used on laptop Linux 20 something years ago and even then it wasn't that bad. I feel preaching Linux is almost counter-effective, but I'm tired of being asked to solve his hw problems caused by bad W11 drivers.

        • By serf 2025-11-1811:14

          nostalgia is pretty powerful.

          I get the same feelings whenever I am near an interface that looks anything like NT4.0.

        • By baq 2025-11-188:032 reply

          > and it won't change by itself for months

          That’s… not a good sell at all

          Promise me a decade and I’ll bite. (Joke’s on me, I’ll need to get out of this windows shithole asap)

          • By IsTom 2025-11-188:521 reply

            I've been on XFCE for about a decade and it's mostly the same as it was.

            • By pjmlp 2025-11-1811:18

              Very nice environment, even me with my C rants, am quite pleased with XFCE desktop experience and available extensions.

          • By fsflover 2025-11-188:281 reply

            If you want years, just choose Debian.

            • By jstanley 2025-11-1810:213 reply

              In my experience the problem with Debian is that sooner or later you're bound to want to use something that is only 5 years old and therefore not included yet, so you end up having to install it from source or something else, but something doesn't quite work right so you have to hack it one way or another, and over time all this cruft adds up and you end up with a broken system caused precisely because the base distro refused to change fast enough.

              • By embedding-shape 2025-11-1810:401 reply

                I no longer use Debian, but when I did, I always used Debian Testing, never had any major issues that weren't my own fault, and packages are way more up-to-date. Worth trying if you're in that ecosystem still, and you want later stuff than 1-2 years old softwrae.

                • By Sharlin 2025-11-1810:50

                  When I used Debian on desktop, I never used anything but unstable. It was never unstable except maybe in a very relative sense.

              • By carlos_rpn 2025-11-1811:41

                Lots of Linux software these days are also distributed as flatpack or appimage, and appimage in particular is dead simple if what you want has it available: place the file wherever on the path, make it executable, and done.

              • By natebc 2025-11-1810:41

                brew is a decent compromise between "breaking debian" and running newer stuff and newer versions of things for desktop use at least.

                For servers, we just use containers.

      • By hnlmorg 2025-11-187:491 reply

        > "again"? What they did in the past seems absolutely neighbourly compared to what they're doing now.

        As someone who lived through Microsoft’s actions in the 90s, I really don’t agree with your sentiment there.

        There’s a reason many of us old greybeards still refuse to use anything MS even 30 years later.

        • By ndsipa_pomu 2025-11-1811:141 reply

          The abomination that was IE6 - it poisoned the internet at the time with developers designing specifically for it and its random bullshit bugs. The number of admin tools (e.g. SAN interface) that specifically required IE6 to run ActiveX or some monstrosity.

          • By mosura 2025-11-1813:58

            This is the kind of opinion you can only hold if you never had to develop for Netscape.

      • By ako 2025-11-186:171 reply

        Windows NT

        • By hulitu 2025-11-186:202 reply

          > Windows NT

          Windows NT what ? Microsoft was always the same.

          • By ako 2025-11-187:243 reply

            Windows NT -> Experience what a good microsoft OS was. Especially around NT 3.1, NT 3.5 their goal seemed mostly to have a good competing OS.

            • By f1shy 2025-11-188:14

              NT was Stable what was really missing in the MS world at that time. But a "good" OS? Other than stable I expect to be able to administer HW, fine grained permissions, and lots of out-of-the-box functionality. Compared with a GNU/Linux of the time, I have never hesitated in going for Linux (or FreeBSD at the time).

            • By 1718627440 2025-11-1919:34

              What do you mean 'was'? Isn't the current Windows still Windows NT?

            • By hnlmorg 2025-11-188:021 reply

              Sure, if you ignore all the anticompetitive bullshit they pulled to blackmail high street stores into removing BeOS, DrDOS, Linux and others from their shelves.

              And the stunts they pulled to kill other IMs.

              Or how they crippled the web for a decade due to killing competing browsers, building Windows lock-ins into IE (eg ActiveX controls), fragmenting Java, and then leaving IE to die themselves.

              Or how they lied about Windows 98 requiring IE4.

              Or how they didn’t give a crap about OS security until halfway through the life of XP. Leaving literally millions of people vulnerable to a plethora of different forms of attacks from malware to direct hacking on open Telnet ports.

              Or how they tried to land grab IRC with their comic book GUI. Which, in fairness, was a novel app. But unfortunately it was another embrace, extend, extinguish play.

              Or how they tried to kill ODF with their own faux-open document format: OOXML

              Or their constant stream of FUD messaging about Linux being “communism”.

              Yeah, MS were really noble in their goals to create a good OS. /s

              It’s a pity they couldn’t even manage to do that well given every iteration of Windows has been bloated, buggy, and years behind the competition in terms of performance and capabilities. Windows was never a good OS.

              In fact I’d go further and say Microsoft have never release a good OS. Even their versions of BASIC sucked compared to the competition.

              Microsoft have always been good at negotiating with businesses. It’s why Azure is used in governments, why Windows is the “business platform”, and why 9x beat the competition in the 90s despite being consistently the worst in class for basically every metric you could think of.

              Windows didn’t succeed because it was good. Microsoft succeeded because Bill Gates was ruthless!

              • By wkat4242 2025-11-199:221 reply

                They are very good at talking to businesses but even more important was their installed base. As they used to say "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".

                They won because they were first mover, not because they were the best because they weren't and they aren't. This is why they are so hell bent on copilot everywhere. They want to build an installed base again so they can milk it. But they're hardly the best. In fact what they are selling as copilot isn't even anything they made. It's just Chatgpt. Another interesting parallel with edge by the way which is of course just chrome.

                • By hnlmorg 2025-11-1911:56

                  They weren’t the first movers. They just managed to get IBM to sign with them after BASIC proved not to be IBMs long term version and CP/M struck out from any disk OS talks (though stories differ about exactly how that interaction went)

                  Microsoft didn’t even have an OS when they made that deal with IBM.

                  Hence why I said they’re good at negotiating with businesses.

                  Being first to market is actually less important than people think it is. It’s just history tends to remember the victors so everyone assumes they were first to market.

          • By BoredPositron 2025-11-186:581 reply

            Windows 2000 was generally a good operating system.

            • By tonyedgecombe 2025-11-1812:07

              It was also the last operating system from Microsoft that didn't require activation.

              It was full of vulnerabilities though. I used to take a laptop with some specialist software to clients and in the end I started running it in a VM so I didn't have to deal with my machine becoming infected from my clients dodgy networks.

    • By snarfy 2025-11-1811:592 reply

      It reminds me of the Xbox One release. They basically had the market with the earlier release compared to Sony's PS4, but then pushed the thing as a media/entertainment glorified roku box not gaming console. They didn't care what you want only what they wanted to sell you, and they were pushing NFL deals not gaming.

      Nobody wants this Copilot everywhere, but they sure are pushing it anyway. It's like they completely forgot how to make a product and only know how to push their agenda using whatever monopoly is left.

      • By hollandheese 2025-11-223:14

        You're mixing up the Xbox 360 and the Xbox One releases. Xbox 360 came out a year before the PS3.

      • By MYEUHD 2025-11-1813:15

        > They basically had the market with the earlier release compared to Sony's PS4

        The Xbox One and PS4 were both released in November 2013.

        If anything, it was the PS4 that was released a week earlier than the Xbox One.

    • By ares623 2025-11-184:59

      It’s do or die. Any ounce of doubt will cause the entire house of cards to collapse.

    • By RobotToaster 2025-11-187:561 reply

      Never thought I'd miss Steve Ballmer

      • By jack_tripper 2025-11-188:001 reply

        Windows under Steve Balmer: "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!"

        Windows under Satya Nadella: "Kindly provide your credit card and personal information sir"

        • By someguyiguess 2025-11-1811:59

          It’s only a matter of time before MS starts asking us to send Wal*Mart gift cards.

    • By AlexandrB 2025-11-184:536 reply

      > Satya had been a bright spot in Microsoft

      What? How?

      From a user's perspective, everything has gotten steadily worse under his reign. Solitaire is now a subscription service. I long for the halcyon days of Windows 8.

      • By ChicagoDave 2025-11-185:029 reply

        Everything before CoPilot was pretty standard CEO stuff. The real change was internally. Satya is well-known for eradicating the "Art of War" environment and bringing workers together. He also fully embraced open-source (Balmer hated OSS) and R&D has continued to innovate. (Still boggles the mind that F# exists and is awesome)

        Prior to CoPilot, my only beef was that Azure needs a ground up re-architecture. They bolted products onto Active Directory which is ancient LDAP tech. It's a massive flaw in how Azure works and why it's 10x more complicated than AWS or GCP.

        • By int_19h 2025-11-186:141 reply

          It should be noted that while Satya opened the floodgates, it was already making inroads by then, just with a lot more paperwork. Some early examples of F/OSS predating Satya were ASP.NET MVC and PTVS.

          At the same time, the insistence from up top that all divisions have to be profitable on their own means that in practice there has been a steady ongoing scale-back from F/OSS for several years now. Just look at the situation in VSCode: sure, the base platform is still open, but increasingly many first-party extensions have their pieces replaced by closed source functionality - Python language server, C# debugger etc. Related to this are the attempts to block VSCode forks by using prohibitive licensing terms and even inserting runtime checks for the same.

          • By pjmlp 2025-11-1811:20

            It always feels that whatever good .NET team manages, it gets killed by upper management decisions, like VSCode should not eat into VS sales, thus plenty of tools will never have a VSCode version.

            Example, you cannot do graphical debugging of parallel code, use visualizers, or do profiling analysis in VSCode.

        • By ezst 2025-11-186:24

          > They bolted products onto Active Directory which is ancient LDAP tech. It's a massive flaw in how Azure works and why it's 10x more complicated than AWS or GCP.

          I really don't see the problem with LDAP. If they make an overlay for it and it's needlessly complicated, that's just par for the course. Have you experienced SharePoint?

        • By pjmlp 2025-11-185:551 reply

          Given the option, I always favour Azure over AWS or GCP.

          AWS is a complexity maze, whereas GCP seems Google only does the minimum and one can only talk to bots.

          • By dijit 2025-11-187:081 reply

            You can pay for professional services.

            In Sweden the only one I ever got support with was Google, so it’s not a universal experience (I didn’t pay for professional services).

            I believe you and I have had this discussion before.

            • By pjmlp 2025-11-187:541 reply

              Yes, and I told you those professional services were nowhere to be found, while in AWS and Azure we actually got people on the phone, so do you want to have this discussion again?

              • By dijit 2025-11-188:041 reply

                yeah. Because I have the opposite experience.

                So I think when either of us talk about it as if it’s universal we are both wrong.

                So every time you make a claim, I’ll be there.

                Your experience with Google, it’s mine with AWS.

                • By pjmlp 2025-11-188:08

                  See you next time, until my GCP experience improves.

        • By steve1977 2025-11-1811:05

          > He also fully embraced open-source

          Embraced as in this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

        • By raxxorraxor 2025-11-188:04

          Ancient LDAP is probably the best they still offer. A far superior way for internal auth and vastly superior for companies that need on premise infrastructure. Nobody wants internal apps that auth through AWS or GCP.

          I hate registering a shitty app and use their modern auth flow. No security gain for additional maintenance.

          For that matter, this is a main reason why Windows is so established. The logistic problem of distributing user accounts on several machines.

          And no, a virtual and slow cloud Windows is not an alternative for anyone that wants to be productive.

        • By Lapel2742 2025-11-187:09

          > Everything before CoPilot was pretty standard CEO stuff.

          Sure it was. Just as OP wrote:

          > From a user's perspective, everything has gotten steadily worse under his reign.

        • By KoolKat23 2025-11-1810:44

          Satya was definitely an improvement, a breath of fresh air. But the last few years, they've started dropping the ball. Everything is half-assed (new outlook), or releases too soon burning goodwill (new teams), or a miss being pushed on people (copilot integration).

          (strangely, perhaps my perception, this is roughly when the Mac M1 came out).

        • By steve1977 2025-11-1811:06

          I wish we still had ancient LDAP tech at work...

        • By unboxingelf 2025-11-185:121 reply

            It's a massive flaw in how Azure works and why it's 10x more complicated than AWS or GCP.
          
          Wait until you try OCI.

          • By ChicagoDave 2025-11-185:18

            That's never going to happen. I'm more or less locked into AWS at this point, though for my personal stuff I'm using my linode server a lot.

            I thought Oracle Cloud was designed by AWS alum and was supposed to be solid?

      • By auggierose 2025-11-188:282 reply

        > Solitaire is now a subscription service

        That is a joke, right? Right??

        • By int_19h 2025-11-188:552 reply

          Nope. Minesweeper, too.

          Well, the games are still free, the subscription is to remove the ads.

          But you have to subscribe for each game separately, and it's a per-device subscription.

          Yes, Microsoft really is that petty when it comes to nickel-and-diming users these days.

        • By megous 2025-11-1815:231 reply

          Well, you can have a subscription for switching a relay in your car, so that current flows from the battery to some wire, so that your seat heats up.

          It's a sign of the times...

      • By phito 2025-11-186:13

        They said Microsoft not windows. Modern dotnet is a good example of something Microsoft has been doing right. Windows on the other hand...

      • By internet_points 2025-11-188:502 reply

        > I long for the halcyon days of Windows 8.

        That's a phrase I would never have thought I'd see. I remember Windows 8 as being generally despised when it first came out.

        • By keyringlight 2025-11-1810:34

          On the UI side of things the trouble with 8 was the push towards touch as the latest shiny object to chase, coming a few years into the boom of smartphones/tablets. The start menu was full screen with no option and many OS applications were either full screen only or by default until you clicked a new title bar button. The 8.1 release pulled back from a lot of that.

        • By int_19h 2025-11-188:56

          There's no bottom. It can always get worse.

      • By chistev 2025-11-185:40

        Solitaire is no longer free?

      • By pcdoodle 2025-11-1811:19

        [dead]

    • By neya 2025-11-1812:45

      > Microsoft has gone full-blown evil corporation again

      You lost me here. They ALWAYS have been evil and disrespectful of their customers. It's not just paid products, even their so called "open source" products like VSCODE and Github Desktop randomly add helpers to run in the background constantly (even on Mac) under the label Telemetry. They paid good money for OpenAI, they want to make full use of it. RIP to all their customers who have to use their Office 360 suite. They will probably pull off an Adobe at some point :(

    • By latentsea 2025-11-186:141 reply

      > OpenAI enabled its users to have a sext conversation.

      Am I reading that right?

    • By zoobab 2025-11-1811:48

      "No full OPT OUT"

      Well even if they have an "opt out" option, it's closed source software, so you cannot audit anything.

    • By duxup 2025-11-1814:31

      Windows more often looks like an ad supported OS pointed AT ME rather than something for me to use to do anything.

    • By MBerkley 2025-11-1815:04

      Pure . This is clearly a opt-in feature and they make that abundantly clear in the article. Stop the dramatics.

    • By wkat4242 2025-11-198:53

      I think the agentic idea is worth exploring. It could be useful.

      However I would want it running fully locally (on my servers, absolutely not on Azure or any other cloud) and to have full control of where everything is stored and how it works. And have full control whether I use it or not. Absolutely no popups and marketing nudges to use it. That stuff tends to drive me away, it deeply annoys me and I only start hating the product.

      But this will not happen with windows. Microsoft is purely a cloud company now and windows is just a sales vehicle for it.

      I think that's the core problem more so than just the latest thing they're trying to push. But I'm not on this hype train. I don't need to have it today or have FOMO. Rven at work there's this push to use AI "or else we will become irrelevant soon". Which is partly driven by Microsoft as they are very close to our top dogs. Their "adoption" teams are constantly hounding us with their bullshit and I hate them so much. Also the colleagues who are evangelising AI (constantly shilling on Yammer and LinkedIn) are just working to make themselves irrelevant in the long term because AI is cheaper than colleagues.

      I'll try it when it comes to Linux in a workable form and fully under my control. Just like I didn't use chatbots until they had workable performance on my own ollama server. And even then I don't use it that much. It's still early days. I don't get this pressure "keep up our fall out". I've been doing computing for 40 years and all the big things have taken at least a decade to actually "change the game". Like the dotcom crash. Eventually we fulfilled it's promises but it required other things to make it happen. Like the smartphone and the app.

    • By eboynyc32 2025-11-1820:25

      You only have yourself to blame. MS has been doing this for ages.

    • By sharts 2025-11-1816:01

      Don’t they conduct research and tests with small groups of people before launching features?

      If so?’, then what the heck users are cool with these things?

  • By the_snooze 2025-11-181:228 reply

    >For example, if you ask ChatGPT’s Agent to book a travel, it’ll open Chromium on Linux in an Azure container, search the query, visit different websites, navigate each page and book a flight ticket using your saved credentials. An AI Agent tries to mimic a human, and it can perform tasks on your behalf while you sit back and relax.

    Big tech has repeatedly shown that they are not good stewards of end users' privacy and agency. You'd have to have been born yesterday to believe they'd build AI systems that truly serve the user's best interests like this.

    • By binsquare 2025-11-182:331 reply

      I think in this case, Microsoft has shown they don't respect the user when they force shutdown for system updates. This has happened during my time working retail and the mom and pops are helpless when this happens.

      I would never trust Microsoft to bake ai agents in..

      • By tbrownaw 2025-11-182:588 reply

        > shown they don't respect the user when they force shutdown for system updates

        Are you familiar with the prior state of things that explicitly motivated this change?

        • By bayindirh 2025-11-188:051 reply

          Yes. Since 199x.

          macOS does the same thing. When I actually sleep, when my laptop's lid is closed. I wake up. My Mac wants a password instead of a fingerprint. It says it has updated the OS when I was snoring. What's the difference?

          Every app, every window, everything is the way I left before closing the lid. My computer is updated, rebooted and ready for the day. Like nothing happened.

          Linux is the same deal. If the desktop environment is upgraded a logout and login is necessary (and KDE restores session as well as macOS for the last decade, at least), and if I updated the kernel, I reboot. I'm back in 30 seconds, to the exact point that I left.

          Only Windows takes 2 hours, 4 reboots, 3 blood sacrifices and countless frustration sounds to upgrade. While saturating the processor and the storage subsystem at the same time, which makes my computer create the same sounds of the said blood sacrifices.

          • By jpalawaga 2025-11-1812:542 reply

            My experience with Mac is iterm prevents Mac from shutting down so instead some days I wake up and everything on my machine has been closed and the update hasn’t been performed. Lovely.

            • By bayindirh 2025-11-1813:14

              I don't use iTerm, and close everything that I don't use for the night, which is a habit I have since the beginning of time.

            • By anthem2025 2025-11-2023:39

              [dead]

        • By mapontosevenths 2025-11-185:083 reply

          Are you aware that MS already sells an operating system that can install patches without rebooting? Are you also aware that Linux can do the same? Why can't a supposedly mature 40 year old operating system do the same? Do you have any concept of the number of man-hours it would save globally? The amount of lost work? The impact on patching compliance and security?

          My guess is they don't actually believe they have any competition, and therefore don't care to improve anything that doesn't also improve their bottom line.

          • By hulitu 2025-11-187:321 reply

            > Are you aware that MS already sells an operating system that can install patches without rebooting?

            No. Which OS is that ? Even to update Office they throw an annoying popup and then another one to start the update and a dark pattern (close button accesible with a hidden scrollbar and no window controls) one to tell you it is finished.

          • By testartr 2025-11-185:274 reply

            every week when I login into my Ubuntu with unattended updates enabled I see this: "system restart required".

            the hot patch feature you mentioned is paid

            • By pjerem 2025-11-186:111 reply

              On Ubuntu, when this message is shown, most of the updates except the kernel are already applied so you are mostly pretty secure. And you can choose when that will happen. And it’s just a normal reboot.

              On Windows, IIRC, you are blocked during the whole update process which can take several minutes.

              • By bayindirh 2025-11-1811:391 reply

                Ubuntu's stable builds do not upgrade kernel and its close vicinity every week, AFAIK. I have a couple of servers with unattended updates enabled, and they do not greet me with "System Reboot Required" banner every week, and if that's required, the server is back with all services running <30 seconds.

                OTOH, I upgraded my parents' PC yesterday, after three months of downtime. It really took at least two hours and four reboots. The machine was screaming and the task manager showed a blue rectangle for CPU load (uninterrupted 100%) and a green one for the disk load (again, uninterrupted 100%) while nothing was usable all the time.

                Same process takes <10m in Linux (specifically Debian), and an optional reboot, without any hardware load drama.

                • By jpalawaga 2025-11-1812:591 reply

                  Weird. My windows PC updates like your Linux machine. How often do update vs your parents? Maybe they had some larger “half” releases pending (I.e. closer to a major macOS release, which also take time)

                  • By bayindirh 2025-11-1813:111 reply

                    The machine is on standby all the time. So it updates whenever it wants. In this occasion the machine was turned off for a couple of months, but the updates were not the "half release" updates. The list was .NET runtime, intel graphics drivers, some dynamic update support and the like. I was watching the machine all the time.

                    Funnily, dynamic updates support installation failed after all the kicking and screaming, and I didn't try. Maybe I'll look into it later.

                    • By Scharkenberg 2025-11-1815:371 reply

                      Upgrade that PC's OS drive to a NVMe. Seriously. We manage thousands of PCs at work and ever since we got laptop models with NVMe drives, updates are a breeze with 6 ± 3 minutes of total downtime.

                      • By bayindirh 2025-11-1815:411 reply

                        Oh, OK. It's a PEBKAC case, then, my bad.

                        I'd rather teach my parents to use Linux instead. Updates will be a breeze with 3±2 minutes of total background work without any interruption and 30 seconds of occasional downtime.

                        • By Scharkenberg 2025-11-1817:141 reply

                          I have no idea how you got to "Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair" given that I literally blamed the slow OS disk drive inside the computer based on thousands of data points on my end.

                          • By bayindirh 2025-11-1818:31

                            Hey, no, I don’t dispute your data points at all. A bog standard NVMe can handle ~1MIOPS these days, and it’s above and beyond what SATA SSDs can provide.

                            What I’m against is tolerating a bad OS design with more capable hardware and allowing Microsoft to worsen the experience. This is a pattern of Microsoft since forever.

                            Oh, that particular PC has no NVMe support anyway. I don’t know why that M.2 port is SATA only.

                            Especially when every other major OS can handle this more gracefully. I can version upgrade a fully loaded Debian installation in less than 6 minutes, reboot included, on a SATA disk, for example.

                            Also, while tangential, Windows providing the worst update experience, and calling Linux a major, mainstream OS superior in some ways feels unbelievable when I look back a decade.

            • By BikiniPrince 2025-11-186:471 reply

              Not to derail but there are issues with kernel patching. If it does work you start building a very large matrix of various levels of hot patches and then sometimes it just doesn’t.

              • By mapontosevenths 2025-11-1812:45

                If my company was worth a trillion dollars and an entire multi-billion dollar industry (cybersecurity) had grown because of my security inadequacies I would figure it out.

                In fact, they already figured out hotpatching and will sell it to you for server 2025.

            • By mapontosevenths 2025-11-1812:42

              It is also paid for windows. It shouldn't be.

              Off topic, but I'm pretty sure that Ubuntu's livepatching is just kpatch under the hood,

              https://ubuntu.com/blog/an-overview-of-live-kernel-patching

            • By 1718627440 2025-11-188:18

              Note, that you can also keep the userspace unchanged by hibernating and then choosing the new kernel on boot. It is not truly live patching, since you have still downtime, but pretty close.

          • By The_President 2025-11-1813:59

            I'd wager further, is they've by this point long since bled out their top talent. Pretty soon that motor is going to run out of oil.

        • By malfist 2025-11-183:282 reply

          Why does that matter? I should be allowed to explicitly chose the risks I want to take. Not microsoft. Especially not for microsoft to decide, no matter what I'm doing, or what I have open and unsaved on my computer, now is the time they think my risk is too great and tuesday has passed, so reboot reboot reboot.

          • By rocqua 2025-11-189:162 reply

            The automatic reboot has made the world a better place, because too many people were incredibly bad at making this risk tradeoff.

            It might still be bad thing for taking away agency. But it was also a massive improvement to society.

            • By ikr678 2025-11-1822:07

              I think it wasnt just reboot inconvenience, I feel like there was a period of time where some software updates would break or make your software experience worse.

              I have vague memories as a teenager of running older versions of MSN messenger in compatability mode because after a certain version it was full of ads.

              Android phone software is also very good at this now, I still hestate to update my pixel because each update somehow makes my phone worse to use.

            • By malfist 2025-11-1813:151 reply

              That's quiet a bit of stretch to equate forced update reboots to massive societal benefits

              • By rocqua 2025-11-1823:50

                The point was about security updates. Without forced upgrades the whole ransomware thing would have been so much worse as just a singular example.

          • By realo 2025-11-189:402 reply

            Well... this is similar to COVID. As long as your computer is disconnected from any network, yes you should be able to do whatever you want and decide. But as soon as your computer can be a danger for others, then your risk taking decisions can harm others, and then what?

            Masks during covid were a matter of public health.

            Regular updates are also a similar matter.

            • By Krssst 2025-11-1814:18

              Masks were necessary to save lives at a stage where risks were unknown and pressure on health systems was high.

              Missing Windows updates does not kill anyone.

              Plus, installing Windows updates may cause high frustration because "feature" updates are mixed with them and may alter the OS behavior in unexpected and undesired ways. If Microsoft cares so much about security, they should allow people to stay on fixed Windows stable versions that only get security updates without pestering them. Basically, sell LTSC to normal people.

            • By squigz 2025-11-1810:05

              It's truly absurd to compare "my computer might be hacked and used by baddies" to "I don't want to wear a mask during a pandemic"

              It's not a comparison that bears a response.

        • By a2128 2025-11-185:071 reply

          The amount of money lost when millions of small restaurants and other retail shops suddenly become unable to accept customer payments for an unknown amount of time because Microsoft thinks Windows should force update during rush hour rather than allowing the computer owner to wait until closing time, would seem to be far greater than the amount of money lost with once-in-10-years WannaCry attacks

          • By makeitdouble 2025-11-185:492 reply

            Don't you get out of forced updates if you set yourself regural update point ? (e.g. every Sunday night)

            Most users, for better or worse, don't want any update ever, unless they wish for a specific feature. We're at a state where there's only once-in-10-years massive attacks exactly because of mandatory security updates that will be forced on the user if they have no intention to install it ever.

            • By WD-42 2025-11-187:11

              Maybe the 3rd largest tech company in the entire world could spend a little time figuring out how to hot patch their OS. Heaven forbid they actually innovate on something.

            • By Zardoz84 2025-11-187:431 reply

              You can update without locking the computer. You know... like is done in Linux for a very long time. I have a nice memory of doing a full update of Kubuntu to the next version at the same time that I was playing a AAA game without issues or interruptions.

              • By kenjackson 2025-11-1814:162 reply

                I hadn’t seen Linux do that. How do they fully do it without ever locking or rebooting the system?

                • By a2128 2025-11-1817:231 reply

                  When you run apt upgrade or pacman -Syu that's exactly what you're doing. The files are replaced on your drive while everything else continues running. Generally it won't affect execution of existing software, because they're all already loaded into memory, but some software might crash or get weird behavior as they try to access their files on the drive and those files have been updated, and newly launched programs will use different library versions than other programs which may cause weirdness. You still need to reboot in the end to stop running old stuff that's still in memory such as kernel or existing programs but it's a normal reboot without any extra delay. Canonical does provide Livepatch for Ubuntu Pro for servers that want to update the kernel with security updates without rebooting.

                  Fedora decided this isn't super stable so they actually went and implemented something similar to Windows updates called Offline updates, where updates are performed after a reboot in a special mode where you can't do anything with your computer while it updates for like 10 minutes, but they give you an option to disable this and do instant updates like described above instead.

                  I think the most interesting innovation are immutable distros, which handle updates entirely differently. They will build an updated image while the system continues running and make it ready so that next reboot will just boot into the updated image. It avoids the partially-updated-system instability entirely and it also makes reverting a broken update instant and easy because you can just boot into the old image (there's usually at least two images). This exists in Fedora Silverblue (OSTree) and Vanilla OS (ABRoot) and AFAIK Android also followed this update pattern with A/B partitions (although they now iterated on this slightly to squeeze a few extra gigabytes out of storage).

                  I honestly don't know why Windows still sticks to their antiquated offline update system when better options exist and everyone always complains about the way they do updates and they have billions of dollars at their disposal, but I guess lack of any real competition to Windows in the PC operating system market has led to such stagnation

                  • By kenjackson 2025-11-1817:461 reply

                    The immutable distro doesn't work for Windows most likely due to disk space. As someone who has informally supported a lot of Windows devices in enterprises it was surprising to me how many Windows problems are a result of running out of HD space and how often updates can't happen (the old fashion kind) simply because there isn't enough HD space for the update. I wouldn't be surprised if something like 5% of updates couldn't happen due to this.

                    Windows does do hotpatching, but there's a lot of things that aren't hotpatchable. Do you really think that Windows is like "naw, we could do zero reboot updates, but prefer not to because we are so dominant in the OS space"? This would be an incredible feature for the enterprise. In fact the enterprise version added a bunch of new hotpatch support just last year, but still requires quarterly updates and only does security updates. You really think that they did all that, but decided to not do the rest because they're comfy?

                    Again, I haven't seen Linux or Mac solve the problem fully either, nor iPhone or Android. AFAIK even every cloud provider has to do a reboot. Would Google or Amazon or Oracle have figured this out if it was so easy? How is it that there is no actual software engineer in industry that knows how to do this, but everyone on message forums seems to? Why don't these companies just hire people from message forums?

                    • By a2128 2025-11-193:29

                      If disk space was the only thing preventing a much better update system, it would seem very trivial to just reserve a few extra gigabytes and do what Android does with compressed deltas that get applied which emulates A/B but with much less disk space usage (similar to non-A/B)

                      > Do you really think that Windows is like "naw, we could do zero reboot updates, but prefer not to because we are so dominant in the OS space"?

                      Microsoft has become complacent with Windows and I think there's no denying that. You need to look no further than the new right-click context menu they thought is acceptable to ship to a billion users. It's lacking half the functionality such as extensions, so they just decided to keep the old one behind "Show more options"? Or maybe no software engineer in the world could solve the infamous context menu 2.0 problem...

                      No operating system has fully solved every problem with updates, but many of them have solved many problems that Windows still continues to have. Zero reboot updates are probably impossible to do reliably but there are other ways to improve that aren't zero reboot updates. I don't claim to know the ins and outs of Windows and exactly how to implement better updates, but they could surely do better than what they're currently doing.

                • By vrighter 2025-11-2114:37

                  on linux, if a file is open by one or more programs, and the file is deleted (and replaced, usually, during updates) then the original file isn't actually deleted until everyone who is currently uses it closes it. You never get a "file is in use" error.

        • By guelo 2025-11-184:111 reply

          Security is the catchall excuse for every bad big tech behavior because they know "security" professionals will defend every f-the-user move they pull [1]. Is it improved security when I lost days of work because microsoft (and you apparently) think their patch is more important then my data? Notice, by the way, that security incidents can cost big tech a lot of money but my lost data is no skin off their back.

          [1] It reminds me of dermatologists, so hyperfocused on skin cancer that they tell everybody to hide from the sun, completely oblivious to all the harm their advice causes to the rest of our health.

          • By keyringlight 2025-11-1810:42

            The other angle is that if annoying enough it gets people to make their own workarounds so it works as they want. The real trouble is when it escalates as each side wants to have authority over the other as they each think they know best, and you get things like laptops on standby waking to try and update themselves in a bag. I've been thinking for a while that windows has been going away from a 'personal computer' OS in that it isn't "mine", it's at the mercy of someone else and efforts to fight that aren't worth it long term.

        • By jwitthuhn 2025-11-184:441 reply

          Yes the security of every Windows computer was much better then, any software that automatically updates itself without user consent is obviously a massive security risk because the user is no longer in control of what software they run.

          • By 1718627440 2025-11-188:21

            This is why I still prefer to install programs as root, since then they are unable to update themself. (And also other users can't do that.)

        • By Mad_ad 2025-11-187:151 reply

          i dont want a device to tell me when i need to restart it, thats my decission.

          • By herbst 2025-11-188:29

            Same on boot. Usually when I boot a computer I am not ready to wait for it to install several updates, unasked.

        • By 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2025-11-183:543 reply

          Not really. Maybe I'm jinxing it, but I've never had a problem caused by failure to update my PC.

          Servers I understand because they're exposed to the Internet at all times. Not PCs

          • By Krssst 2025-11-1814:23

            > Servers I understand because they're exposed to the Internet at all times. Not PCs

            And, for reference, updates are not forcefully installed on Windows Server.

            Well, forcefully restarting a server without asking its owner does sound like a bad idea. And disrespecting the users in that way when the competitor OS for servers is free, has significant market share and is known for letting the user to what they want and getting out of the way should probably also be avoided from a market perspective.

          • By p_ing 2025-11-184:133 reply

            Lest one remembers Win 9x or even XP w/ no firewall on residential networks.

            • By hunter2_ 2025-11-184:44

              It's interesting how much different the landscape was in that era: single-device residential environments would have no firewall at all (just a PC with a publicly-routable IP address) and dial-up kind of fueled this due to PCI slot modems, but as the outboard nature of DSL and DOCSIS modems made it easier to build multiple-device residential environments by adding a router, suddenly everyone had a firewall (as a byproduct of NAT). Then you've got malware, which was far more prevalent on PCs through that transition relative to today, but now we've got IoT stuff probably not being updated as it ought to be, potentially hosting malware that serves as a proxy to sidestep an in-router firewall.

            • By AlexandrB 2025-11-184:351 reply

              Behind a NAT.

              Can't remember a single problem with the described setup and I've been using the internet since dial-up was the only option available.

              Getting hacked when you don't have any open ports (thanks to NAT) is and was pretty unlikely - what was more likely is some kind of drive-by exploit in Flash or IE. The biggest problem I experienced with old Windows was general instability in the form of BSODs and driver compatibility problems.

              • By p_ing 2025-11-1815:46

                NAT has nothing to do with security and it was common that people had a single device on DSL or cable plugged directly into the modem; routers were not common place at home.

                NAT was for fancy-pants with multiple PCs.

            • By bogeholm 2025-11-188:11

              Yeah, I remember formatting the HD on a PC back then to do a fresh install of Windows XP.

              The CD-ROM I had was pre-SP2 (so no firewall), and our internet setup was basic modem + switch. No router with “drop invalid state” or fancy things like that.

              So, installed Windows and plugged in Ethernet to fetch Windows updates.

              2 minutes later, with no user interaction whatsoever, the PC was infected with malware.

          • By hulitu 2025-11-187:35

            > Servers I understand because they're exposed to the Internet at all times. Not PCs

            Gates, is that you ? They have telemetry in PCs those days, you know. /s

    • By tjpnz 2025-11-183:061 reply

      I wouldn't trust a big tech AI agent to act in my own best interest. How do I know I'm getting the best deal and that they're not clipping the ticket? Given so many of these companies are really ad-tech/surveillance businesses, how do I know that they're not communicating information about me to the travel site which might affect the price?

      • By AlexandrB 2025-11-184:421 reply

        > How do I know I'm getting the best deal and that they're not clipping the ticket?

        You should actually expect the exact opposite. There's more money in getting large companies to pay you to redirect customers to more expensive products than in consumers paying for this kind of service. Honey[1] should server as a stark reminder here.

        [1] https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/software/honey-scandal-e...

        > According to Megalag and other content creators, Honey's core promise isn't true. PayPal and Honey say they'll run through a series of coupon codes to find the best deals. However, the firm is accused of using inferior codes to ensure the retailer gets more money from the sale while promising the user that the best code was used.

        > Megalag tested this in his video and found instances where better codes were readily available online, but Honey chose to use a code with a lower discount, claiming it was the best deal.

        • By tjpnz 2025-11-1811:34

          What happened to Pt2 of his video?

    • By userbinator 2025-11-186:091 reply

      Ironically, Microsoft's slogan in the 90s was "where do you want to go today?"

      These days, it's more like "where do we want to make you go today?"

      • By cherrycherry98 2025-11-202:56

        How I yearn for when their marketing had everyday people touting how "Windows 7 was my idea!" Every Windows release since then has felt like they are hostile to user input.

    • By sensanaty 2025-11-1811:582 reply

      Sidenote, why is it always booking a plane ticket that they hype up? It's like the only 2 things any of the marketing can think of is booking plane tickets and replying to emails

      • By yabones 2025-11-1814:281 reply

        It's funny, because it's also one of the most "gotcha-filled" things you can do. Click the wrong box, and they'll stick you in a seat with no leg room or make you pay extra for a carry-on bag. I have very little confidence that an AI would be able to make the "correct" choice on an airline ticket consistently without making a rather impactful mistake.

        • By wkat4242 2025-11-199:26

          It will work for a while and then the airlines will game their systems against AI agents just like they currently do against consumers.

          It's just a temporary solution. A real solution would be for laws to force them to not do this. But airlines are often very intertwined with the state and a prestige thing for a country.

      • By cdblades 2025-11-1813:25

        because the people driving these products are disconnected and deeply unbalanced people

    • By philipwhiuk 2025-11-1810:25

      You'll end up with car insurance, a hotel reservation you don't want and pay extra for the middle seat

      (Assuming it even gets the right airport/country).

    • By krackers 2025-11-182:228 reply

      I think it's hilariously tone deaf that travel booking and shopping are the two examples of "agentic" AI that keep popping up.

      • By Terr_ 2025-11-184:221 reply

        I think there are two factors:

        1. "Help customers buy crap" is one of the vaguely plausible use-cases which excite investors who see the ads, even if it isn't so exciting for actual customers.

        2. The ideas seem sourced from some brain-trust of idle-rich, rather than from the average US consumer. Regardless of how the characters in the ads are presented, all of them are somehow able to prefer saving 60 seconds even if it means maybe losing $60 on a dumb purchase or a non-refundable reservation at the wrong restaurant, etc.

        • By thewebguyd 2025-11-184:332 reply

          > The ideas seem sourced from some brain-trust of idle-rich , rather than from the average US consumer

          I think it says more about the economy currently. The "average US consumer" is the wealthy right now. Just 10% of the population, the highest earners, drive nearly 50% of consumption currently and that number is growing.

          That is the new average US consumer, hence the ads and use cases targeting a more well-off demographic. Everyone else has been left behind.

          • By A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2025-11-1810:00

            I think my marketing professor said something interesting about it a decade or so ago. Basically, in the US we are moving towards heavy bifurcation. You can cater to the well-off or not well-off. The class was full of kids, who did not seem to understand the implications of what he was already saying then ( not that it technically is that mindblowing, the signs are there.. ).

          • By Terr_ 2025-11-186:23

            Adding context: The upper 10% for household income across the US is about $160k/yr.

            Limiting the scope to people living in high cost-of-living cities (probably smaller than their ideal customer field) that might be $300-400k/yr.

      • By isodev 2025-11-182:463 reply

        The main reason I shop online is the joy of hitting that Buy button every now and then for something I want. I don’t want some dumb bot doing that for me (and getting the wrong thing 2/3 of the times)

        The real chore is having to go to the store to get groceries, doing laundry, pairing socks etc … but solving any of that would require more than just bullshit LLM capabilities.

        • By ronsor 2025-11-183:192 reply

          > get groceries

          Isn't that what grocery delivery apps are for, if you really don't want to go to the store.

          > doing laundry, pairing socks etc … but solving any of that would require more than just bullshit LLM capabilities.

          Yes, it's a shame robotics (hardware) is harder than software, but that's not really the fault of AI model developers.

          • By smallstepforman 2025-11-186:161 reply

            Actually, for Robotics hardware is a solved problem. Software is struggling to keep up.

            • By anticrymactic 2025-11-188:00

              > Actually, for Robotics hardware is a solved problem.

              I understand the sentiment but this couldn't be further from the truth. There are no robotic hand models that get close to the fidelity of humans (or even other primates).

              The technology just doesn't exist yet, motors are a terrible muscle replacement. Even completely without software, a puppeteered hand model would be revolutionary.

          • By isodev 2025-11-183:481 reply

            You kind of missed the point of my comment but ok

            > not really the fault of AI model developers

            It’s their fault for pushing all this crap in all the things and misleading their investors that there is actually “intelligence” in what we now call AI.

            > grocery delivery apps are for

            These are not popular here and for a good reason - you need to enjoy your food and it starts by picking the right ingredients yourself.

            “someone packs a bag for me and delivers it to my door” is just moving the problem somewhere else, not actual innovation.

            • By abracadaniel 2025-11-184:462 reply

              They always mess up a few things, make brain dead substitutions, or get low quality produce. I had bags show up smelling strongly of cigarettes. All for a premium price, an app that takes a surprising amount of time finding things on, and the complete loss of discoverability.

              • By duskdozer 2025-11-187:56

                My experience with other shopping sites makes me suspect that with all the ads, tracking, captchas, etc bogging things down, it might be faster to just go to the store yourself.

              • By 1718627440 2025-11-188:23

                Can you refuse to pay, since you didn't got what you ordered?

        • By Libidinalecon 2025-11-1813:14

          Groceries are hysterical to me. The ultimate first world problem.

          It is just too much to go to the store, put what you want to eat in the cart, pay and walk out.

          It stresses me out too much and takes time away from wasting time on my phone.

        • By anon_cow1111 2025-11-185:49

          Every time I hit a "buy" button it brings nothing but horrible anxiety over what future bullshit I'll have to deal with, either because the product will be garbage or the seller will be garbage. And that's after doing an hour of more research for every god damn thing.

          Getting groceries is practically relaxing at this point

      • By rsynnott 2025-11-188:27

        The industry has decided that 'agentic' stuff is The Future, and has bet the farm on it. However, actual useful applications are, ah, thin on the ground to say the least. Accordingly, industry obsesses over the few use cases which have shown up, even if they are not necessarily use cases that anyone particularly _wants_.

      • By Anamon 2025-11-2219:44

        It's like the "store your recipes" to sell home computers 45 years ago. Not the problem we need solved.

        Or the "write code more quickly" for LLMs. NOT the problem we need solved.

      • By Jcampuzano2 2025-11-184:09

        Because for the average person there isn't really that much they get out of todays agentic ai. This is all project managers can think of that applies to the average layperson.

        It's just shitware being added to everything at very few people's benefit just so they can score some points on the stock market AI hype leaderboard.

      • By testartr 2025-11-185:301 reply

        searching for a flight and booking it is legitimately one of the most painful online things that exists. it's like the booking industry is feeding on suffering

        • By BikiniPrince 2025-11-186:53

          It’s intentionally obfuscated because the product developers don’t want to share profits with brokers. They also do not want to compete on in the open because that too lowers odors Otherwise, we would have a system where it would be insanely easy to monitor and alert for price breaks. Hidden cities is probably the best example of how it could work and easily presents the price charts over time. Yet they too were cut off from some providers.

      • By kenjackson 2025-11-1814:18

        Travel booking is time consuming and frustrating. In doing it now and hate it. If some YC company wants to fix this I’d be hugely appreciative.

      • By BoredPositron 2025-11-187:02

        Probably high priority because the dev and literally everyone else is sick of microsofts selfservice platform for travel.

    • By tonyedgecombe 2025-11-1812:14

      >Big tech has repeatedly shown that they are not good stewards of end users' privacy and agency.

      I can understand Google or Facebook being bad because their whole business model is based around selling your attention and agency. Microsoft shouldn't be as bad because they are selling a product but in many ways they appear worse.

    • By wiredpancake 2025-11-182:38

      [dead]

  • By larrybud 2025-11-1813:593 reply

    Is ANYONE reading the article or going to the source prior to posting with outrage? Source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/experimental-age... (the original article is not available at the moment due to the ongoing Cloudfare outage)

    What I see is that the AI agent is an optional, experimental off-by-default service that is configured to only have access to the folders you specifically choose.

    From the MS article: "An agent workspace is a separate, contained space in Windows where you can grant agents access to your apps and files so they can complete tasks for you in the background while you continue to use your device. Each agent operates using its own account, distinct from your personal user account. This dedicated agent account establishes clear boundaries between agent activity and your own, enabling scoped authorization and runtime isolation. As a result, you can delegate tasks to agents while retaining full control, visibility into agent actions, and the ability to manage access at any time.

    Agents typically get access to known folders or specific shared folders, and you can see this reflected in the folder’s access control settings. Each agent has its own workspace and its own permissions—what one agent can access doesn’t automatically apply to others.

    [..]

    Agent workspace is only enabled when you toggle on the experimental agentic feature setting. The feature is off by default."

    • By anonym29 2025-11-1814:012 reply

      "optional, experimental off-by-default service" is Microsoft-ese for "1-2 years away from being always on and unremovable"

      • By Numerlor 2025-11-1814:032 reply

        Then the outrage can come when that happens? This comment section is 50% people that haven't used windows in 10 years complaining

        • By dplesh 2025-11-1816:461 reply

          it goes 'fool me once shame on you..' you know the rest of the sentence

          • By einsteinx2 2025-11-1913:14

            “Fool me…you can't get fooled again.” ?

      • By larrybud 2025-11-1814:292 reply

        So you're outraged at something that hasn't happened. Or to say it another way, you're outraged because you can imagine something bad happening?

        • By selfhoster11 2025-11-1814:32

          From a corporation with a proven track record in those things? Let's not pretend like they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

        • By devsda 2025-11-1816:09

          MS online account was optional at a time but where are we now ? With MS track record, its not a question of if, but when.

          The outrage here will probably not stop MS but it does signal that it is not a welcome move and it hopefully stops them from doing more bad things.

          Even if few people realize that they don't have to tolerate this and if it make them move to alternatives, its worth it.

    • By lostmsu 2025-11-1815:35

      Funnily enough this is exactly how I ended up setting up CLI coding agents. E.g. made a separate user account, granted it RO or RW access to some of my projects, et viola

    • By fleroviumna 2025-11-194:00

      [dead]

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