No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

2026-01-1318:54310346www.ablg.io

Sharing a reluctant, "node & postgres" approach to engineering management for early-stage startups

This article is for early-stage (Seed, Series A) founders who think they have engineering management problems (building eng teams, motivating and performance-managing engineers, structuring work/projects, prioritizing, shipping on time).

The gist: if you think you have these problems, it is likely that the correct solution is to do nothing, to not manage, and to go back to building product and talking to users. Put another way, and having managed teams at all scales, I don’t think it’s a good use of your time as a founder to be "managing" engineers at such an early stage.

In the following sections, I'll go through the most typical anti-patterns I've seen, and try to highlight a better use of your time if you think you've hit the situation in question.

Do not try to "motivate" your engineers

A common concern of many founders is making sure that their engineers are working hard. This could mean putting in long hours, working more than competitors, completing heroic codebase rewrites, etc. When these external signs of effort seem to be missing, founders worry that the team is not "motivated", and it can be very tempting to treat symptoms over causes. For example:

  • creating cultural norms around putting in long hours (996-style culture) by either requiring or celebrating them
  • scheduling recurring or non-urgent meetings on weekends (e.g. standup on Saturdays)
  • micro-managing tasks, or asking people for status reports and other evidence they worked hard

These anti-patterns share one thing in common: they start with founders trying to actively do something to motivate the team. This has 2 consequences:

  1. This can cause the very engineers you want to retain (those who have many options) to self-select out of your engineering culture. I know several top 1% engineers in the Valley who disengage from recruiting processes when 996 or something similar is mentioned.
  2. You are wasting your mental energy on the wrong problem

All of this is a long way of saying that motivation is an inherent trait of great startup engineers. Your only job is to hire these engineers, and then to maintain an environment where they want to do their best work. And yes, at that point, you may see them working long hours and doing heroic actions you did not even think were possible.

Motivation is a hired trait. The only place where managers motivate people is in management books.

I'll dedicate a post to specific ways you can identify motivation during hiring, but in short, look for:

  • the obvious one: evidence that they indeed exhibited these external signs of motivation (in an unforced way!) in past jobs
  • signs of grit in their career and life paths (how did they respond to adversity, how have they put their past successes or reputation on the line for some new challenge)
  • intellectual curiosity in the form of hobbies, nerdy interests that they can talk about with passion
  • bias for action and fast decision speed

Finally, as a founder, you should definitely be the most motivated person, in an authentic way (maybe it's some piece of heroic coding, maybe it's taking 2am meetings with European customers, maybe it's something else unique to you). Cultivating your own inner motivation is the most effective way to set the tone for the team.

Do not hire managers too soon

The most obvious external sign that a startup has switched from building a product to building a company is to add management roles. When this switch happens prematurely, a lot of energy gets spent on stage-irrelevant problems.

By definition, an engineering manager needs to manage a team and projects, but if the team is still working on defining what they should be building, there is nothing to manage. Even the most intellectually honest manager will start outputting "management work", such as having 1:1s with everyone, doing some career coaching, applying order to the chaos of potential features by putting them in JIRA tickets or issues, etc. Here's what it means for you as a founder:

  • you are still trying to find product-market fit and build your initial product
  • an engineering manager is helping you do it in a more optimized way, but they are optimizing a moving target so it does not really improve anything
  • you don't know if this engineering manager is bad at their job, or if the engineers are not performing, or if the product has no market anyway, or all of the above

So how do you define "too soon"? Let's look at a few typical inflection points, assuming at least one founder is technical:

The founding stage (5-6 engineers including founders)

Obviously too soon to hire managers or turn someone into a manager. The only management-like tasks for the founders are hiring and firing, other than that the team should largely be self-organizing and self-sustaining with lightweight tooling (a simple doc can even be used as a task tracker, 1:1s happen organically and are infrequent, etc.).

In general, the bias should be towards doing nothing in terms of management and everything in terms of hiring exceptional people who inherently work well together.

This might be late seed or series A, with an inkling of a working product. Many teams will decide to implement management at this stage, because it seems like the natural next step. The decision is full of nuances, but I would strongly advise to have all the engineers still report into a single person (ideally the co-founder CTO). Why? Speed of execution and culture, mainly:

  • at 15 engineers, it is very doable for a single person to keep track of everyone's work and ensure alignment.
  • this is the critical moment where you build the engineering culture that will bring you from here to hundreds of engineers (how do we hire, what do we value, how do we work together, etc.). It's much easier to do this as a flat team with a single leader.
  • pivots and radical decisions could still happen frequently, which will be exponentially harder if you have to manage these engineers through 2 or 3 line managers.

The only nuance I would add, if you really need to start structuring the team, is to go with hybrid roles: maybe it's a very hands-on manager who still codes 70% of the time, maybe it's elevating a few key engineers into informal tech lead positions

The early growth stage (going from 20 to 50 engineers)

This is the sweet spot where the benefit of adding more management and more structure should outweigh the cost of letting the inevitable chaos of a larger team take a life of its own. Still, I would highly recommend a less-is-more approach.

Here are a few signs you've reached that stage:

  • the CTO / whoever is managing everyone shows signs of burning out under the load
  • adding more engineers no longer increases output, meaning you are constrained by team inefficiency
  • the team excels at week-to-week impact, but nobody seems able to play out what will happen in 3 to 6 months

This is a vast topic, and I'll dedicate a future article to that specific stage, including how to hire your first head of engineering.

Do not copy Google

This section addresses two sides of the same coin, both related to the halo effect surrounding great companies and more specifically their management practices:

  • Applying management ideas that Google (or other successful company) have talked about and made popular
  • Applying the meta-idea of innovating in the field of management (like Google did in their time)

I'll skip to the conclusion and explain it below:

When in doubt, always pick the "node & postgres" stack of management. Do not innovate, keep it boring.

What I mean by the "node & postgres" of management

Node & postgres share these common traits: they have huge communities, their bugs and quirks have been explored by millions of people, and so they are great choices for early-stage startups compared to, say, C++ and OracleDB. No matter what you think about their technical merits, it would be very hard to point to them as a reason why a startup failed. They are just solid, boring tools, and they work at the early stage.

You should use the same type of boring, widely used, stage-appropriate tools when it comes to managing your startup. Every ounce of "innovation" you spend on your organizational structure, title philosophy, or new-age 1:1 is an ounce you aren't spending on your product. At the seed stage, your culture shouldn't be unique because of your clever peer feedback system, it should be unique because of the speed at which you solve customer problems.

What is the boring stack of seed stage management

As a conclusion to this section and to the entire article, I want to share, somewhat paradoxically, a few useful management activities specifically for the early stage. They almost all share the same "reluctant" approach to engineering management, which I think is a healthy leadership approach at that particular stage.

  • Hire inherently motivated people: see first section
  • Don't manage around a hiring mistake, let them go quickly and gracefully
  • Asynchronous status updates: do not adopt all the "Scrum rituals" like standups, retros, etc. wholesale, and if you do, keep them asynchronous. There is little added value to a voiced update, even if it makes you feel good that people are indeed working hard and showing up to the standup on time!
  • An avoidant relationship to Slack: while Slack is a given in today's distributed or hybrid teams, it can quickly become an attention destroyer, especially for engineers who need uninterrupted time to work. Keep it in check.
  • Organic 1:1s (as opposed to recurring ones): keep them topic-heavy and ad-hoc, as opposed to relationship maintenance like in the corporate world.
  • Unstructured documents over systems of records: unless you need to itemize tasks for audit purposes, a few notion or google docs can actually scale for 10-15 engineers, especially given current AI tools. They have very little overhead and are unbeatable in terms of flexibility.
  • Extreme transparency: give everyone access to everything (customer call notes, investor updates, budgets, etc.). Not only will you build trust with the team, but you will also remove the need to "communicate" (as in, filtering and processing information), which is a typical management task.

To be clear, many of these practices do not scale past 20-25 engineers, but that's part of the point.

I hope you found this post actionable, good luck with building your team!


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Comments

  • By pyrale 2026-01-1321:318 reply

    > I know several top 1% engineers in the Valley who disengage from recruiting processes when 996 or something similar is mentioned.

    A few years back, on this board, 996 was something people made fun of when it was reported that some Chinese companies did it [1].

    And now, the strongest claim this blog can make is that some engineers in the US would disengage from recruiting? That the issue with working on saturdays is daily standup? What happened in these years for such a change to happen?!

    [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19507620

    • By Herring 2026-01-1321:345 reply

      It’s better to look at what didn’t happen: unionization.

      Americans often remind me of Steve Jobs trying to cure cancer using diets & acupuncture. You know what the solutions are, you just don’t like them.

      • By bob001 2026-01-1321:396 reply

        Until recently American engineers made a lot of money at comparatively cushy jobs. A decent engineer in the US could make 5x their equivalent in most European nations. Staff+ engineers at FAANG could make 5x that. People in a good position tend to not like rocking the boat.

        • By al_borland 2026-01-1321:468 reply

          Not just that, but the union would likely end up capping their salary much lower so the wealth can be spread around. How hard is the 10x engineer on the team going to work when the compensation is the same regardless? This is where people end up working multiple jobs, if they can keep up with their peers only working one day per week.

          • By theshrike79 2026-01-148:104 reply

            Why the fuck would an union cap anyones salary? Is this an American thing?

            Over here the purpose of unions is to: Provide a strong enough legal response and guidance to deter companies from trying shady shit, pay better unemployment fees than the government and provide training/networking. They also negotiate collectively with the employers on behalf of everyone for things like paid sick leave, paid vacations etc.

            I pay a flat fee every month because the union I'm in has always had relatively low unemployment, for others it's usually a percentage of their monthly gross salary (usually around 10-50€).

            In what scenario would capping people's salary be good for the workers?

            • By joe_mamba 2026-01-148:455 reply

              >Why the fuck would an union cap anyones salary? Is this an American thing?

              No, it's a thing in most of Europe like France or Germany for unionized trades. All trades there have publicly documented salary bands based on education and YoE per job, where the negotiations starting point for a wage for a position must not be below the minimum threshold but also can't exceed a certain upper threshold. In some cases, the company can decide to place you outside the union agreed tariff/band range to give you a higher wage, but then you might be exempt from some strict union rules like 35h/week working hours and such.

              And they cap the top end of the salary bands because the yearly budget for wage increases is a fixed pie for most companies, and so to have money left to give entry level workers the great wage increases as mandated for by unions, they need to cap the increases to the top wages to prevent bleeding/bankruptcy. Do you think all European companies have unlimited money to give all their workers X% wage increases?

              This is how it works in Austria.

              • By theshrike79 2026-01-149:331 reply

                In Finland we have salary bands for some jobs, but it's usually just the minimum. Some have a maximum, but there are always "personal bonuses" the employer can give on top of that. But these are usually "old" professions like teachers, nurses, factory workers.

                For IT jobs I haven't seen an official salary band anywhere and there basically is no union mandated maximum and the minimum is mostly a suggestion.

                We also get universally negotiated percentage raises every now and then, but it's like 1-2%. Personal raises are on top of that and can be a LOT more.

                The maximum cap sounds just stupid. When you hit the limit, why would you do anything past the absolute minimum to stay at that level?

                • By bob001 2026-01-1411:582 reply

                  > The maximum cap sounds just stupid.

                  Conceptually unions are a democracy and people are selfish. Why should I let some other worker make 10x what I do when I can instead have them make 1x and spread out the other 9x around including to me?

                  • By theshrike79 2026-01-1414:302 reply

                    This "spread it around" sounds like some trickle down ecodomics madness to me =)

                    If the company can't pay more to a high performer they surely won't just give thast money to the average folks. It'll just go to C-staff bonuses and conference trips to exotic countries.

                    (Provided that the average performers are above the union minimum already)

                    • By Izkata 2026-01-1416:421 reply

                      > This "spread it around" sounds like some trickle down ecodomics madness to me =)

                      Trickle-down would be giving him the full 10x salary, then by his own choice he'd be doing something with it that benefited everyone else.

                      Forcing it by spreading it around instead of paying him is more like socialism or communism.

                      • By joe_mamba 2026-01-1416:491 reply

                        >Forcing it by spreading it around instead of paying him is more like socialism or communism.

                        THat's how a lot of companies in Austria apply wage increases per union mandates. Take a budget and spread it around so that workers bicker amongst themselves for not receiving what they think they deserve.

                        • By theshrike79 2026-01-156:55

                          In here the unions negotiate a flat percentage raise for everyone, usually 0-2% "index raises" they call them.

                          All others are performance based and determined by the employer.

                    • By Muromec 2026-01-1414:58

                      The likely two outcomes are -- 1) the upper limit of salary band for everyone in the same role is raised high enough or 2) the high performing person is leaving to a place that pays it with a band or without.

                  • By al_borland 2026-01-1419:16

                    You realize this sounds like you being selfish? You’re taking merit out of the equation, looking to take from others, so that you get more.

              • By bojan 2026-01-149:59

                > No, it's a thing in most of Europe like France or Germany for unionized trades.

                This is how it often works even without unions. Everywhere I worked there were salary ranges you can't go out of without changing the role, and I was never in a union.

              • By conradfr 2026-01-1413:26

                The minimum wage thing in France is true but it's so low for developers that it doesn't play any role in salary négociation.

                Never seen any upper threshold except just what the company décides.

                By law people with the same job and same qualification etc in a company must earn the same thing but that's theory more than practice, except maybe large companies.

                Also being in an union or not does not change anything.

              • By ernst_klim 2026-01-149:21

                Same in Germany. That's why usually Max Mustermann (55) get's a better compensation for doing bare minimum than you for doing more work.

                But in case of layoffs you will be kicked out first and he would be kicked out the last and with a far better severance package.

              • By rcbdev 2026-01-156:41

                In Austria, salary is absolutely NOT capped by collective agreements. At a certain cap salaries are just not valorized anymore, that's all.

                We here live in an eco-social free-market economy, where a company can pay an employee however much they want. In union terms, the collective agreements only regulates the minimum an employer has to do.

            • By moduspol 2026-01-1416:49

              Most unions in the US seem to have pretty strict rules about titles, who does what, and how much each role gets paid. It's not unreasonable to expect it'd happen with software developers, too.

              That said, I always point to the NFL Players Association as one that seems to be able to provide value to highly and diversely paid talent apparently without kneecapping their high performers. Though it's not something I've researched deeply.

            • By raw_anon_1111 2026-01-1414:462 reply

              Seeing the wage difference in Europe and the UK even for enterprise developers let alone those who work for major (mostly American based ) tech companies, is not a rousing endorsement for unions for developers

              • By fastasucan 2026-01-167:121 reply

                Thats an extremely simplistic view of things? All else is equal? Why do you think that is a product of unions?

                • By raw_anon_1111 2026-01-171:37

                  So tell me how would I union improve my life as a worker in tech?

                  I don’t make the eye popping BigTech salaries (been there done that). I spent my entire long career until 2020 as an enterprise Dev in a second tier city.

              • By Herring 2026-01-1414:581 reply

                When your fascists get done with you, if there's anything left, you'll deeply wish you had spent that wage difference to get rid of them. Inequality is very corrosive to society. Europe had to learn that lesson the hard way too.

                • By raw_anon_1111 2026-01-1415:262 reply

                  While I support mostly liberal causes - I consider myself a liberal not a leftists - like an increased social safety net, universal healthcare etc, unions are just a bridge too far.

                  But me personally, at 51, I have said before that I plan to go by the Ben Kenobi strategy. When things get too bad, my wife and I will just become hermits somewhere and when the evil empire comes looking for us just give up and die.

                  We are seriously looking at “Plan B” countries to live in after retirement and are planning to spend 6 weeks in one of those countries starting next month. I work remotely.

                  • By rcbdev 2026-01-156:481 reply

                    How is an increased social safety net a liberal policy? Most liberal parties in Europe want to lower taxes / social-security payments. (see FDP, NEOS, etc.)

                    • By raw_anon_1111 2026-01-1516:05

                      Those are considered left policies in the US.

                  • By Herring 2026-01-1417:141 reply

                    lol good luck. Both of those are way harder than paying union dues.

                    And there's no guarantee the empire won't find you wherever you go. War is an excellent counter to inequality, it works much better than progressive taxation or collective bargaining.

                    • By raw_anon_1111 2026-01-1417:192 reply

                      It’s a lot easier when you make 3x the comp of the average developer in the EU and I am not even in BigTech (anymore).

                      I can absolutely guarantee you that the average enterprise CRUD developer living in a 2nd tier US city is better off than a developer in the EU. Let alone the top 10-20% working in BigTech or equivalent.

                      • By fastasucan 2026-01-167:151 reply

                        Have you factored in healthcare costs, welfare (if you ever need that), childcare/kindergarten costs, benefit of living in a safe society, sick leave, holiday, worker protection, better work/life balance etc when you say better off?

                        • By raw_anon_1111 2026-01-1618:55

                          Yes my “if I lose my job” budget includes $1000 month for health insurance on the open market or my wife still has her CDL. She doesn’t with now. But she could easily get a job as a school bus driver and get insurance. That was basically why she worked for the first 8 years of our marriage.

                          Every professional company gives sick leave (usually 10 days), holidays (usually 10 days), paid vacation (usually 15-20 days), I have never had a job where I was expected to work for more than 40 hours a week in 30 years across 10 jobs. If it did, I would get another job .

                          If you make three times the wages, it pays for a lot of stuff - including self funding your emergency fund, child care cost etc.

                      • By Herring 2026-01-1418:15

                        The empire will find you wherever you go. https://www.brusselstimes.com/1916422/us-tech-giants-allying...

            • By Muromec 2026-01-149:112 reply

              >Why the fuck would an union cap anyones salary? Is this an American thing?

              Huh? If you have a collective agreement, all the compensation ranges are written down there. You get level 11 comp contract and your manager puts you at 85% of the scale, then the union decides the scale goes from say 85k to 95k. The next time the agreement is renegotiated, the scale gets bumped to 90k to 100k and you can't get past 100k until you promoted to the next function with a different comp level in a contract.

              That's excluding pager duty hazard pay, may the God allmerciful steer your path away from it.

              Unions are more about making the job conditions better than about maximizing the comp. Want to grind, go full 996 and sleep at work to afford that fancy house in Las Vegas.

              • By fastasucan 2026-01-167:18

                So it is an american thing. It seems like your unions do a lot of weird stuff, and then you just accept it as its an universal rule.

              • By malfist 2026-01-1415:00

                Employers already have salary caps and comp ranges. They're called the "pay band" at most companies. You can head over to levels.fyi to look at most of them.

          • By array_key_first 2026-01-146:492 reply

            I think the truth is that there really isn't 10xers, and that's more or less a propaganda technique to get people to crab bucket each other.

            Of course everyone likes to think they're santa's special engineer, so they don't need hurdles like protections and a level playing field. But, simultaneously, the industry has been doing everything in its power to make engineers as fungible as possible. The "wet dream" is to make engineers practically assembly line workers - you can just plop some rando in at any time, and it'll probably be fine. You can see this with the extreme turnover in a lot of the industry.

            These concepts are in almost perfection contradiction, but they both have the same goal: to convince you and me that the status quo is desirable for each of us personally.

            • By bob001 2026-01-1412:051 reply

              There are those who can provide 10x output in certain kinds of problems. Either due to experience or however their minds work. If their output is as a tech lead then even a 2x can provide an overall 10x increase through second order impact via their team. There are also those who provide 0.5x and 0.1x output on a wide range of problems.

              • By acdha 2026-01-1412:562 reply

                > If their output is as a tech lead then even a 2x can provide an overall 10x increase through second order impact via their team.

                This is something the 10x mythology tends to leave out: there are a vanishingly few people who are significantly above the 90th percentile in terms of individual productivity but if the discussion shifted to team dynamics, that’s where you can actually see really big gains by helping a larger group be more productive.

                • By bob001 2026-01-1413:15

                  I think its also that few companies have a way to allow a 10x individual productivity engineer to focus on just the things they are 10x as good at. It's almost never everything. Once you add in meetings, politics, proposals, perf ladder requirements, mentoring, code reviews, etc. the result is a regression to the mean.

                • By Izkata 2026-01-1417:321 reply

                  10x came from actual measurements a few decades ago, getting people to implement the same project and seeing what the result was. The two parts missing from the modern usage of the term: the measurement was within a given team (not overall), and it was a comparison of best and worst, not best and average.

                  • By acdha 2026-01-1418:51

                    10x came from the 80s, so already fairly different in key ways (internet documentation, CI, platform and tool maturity, etc.), and the methodology is challenging because you don’t have easy comparisons between complex real projects without tons of confounds and trying to measure artificial challenges runs into different but also significant challenges selecting the candidates and ensuring that the work is representative.

                    There are definitely people who are more or less productive but I think we’re very prone to focus on the individual while ignoring the environment they’re working in, as well as the question about broadly applicable that result is.

            • By Muromec 2026-01-149:25

              There aren't 10x ers, but there are definetly 0.15xers

          • By KittenInABox 2026-01-143:502 reply

            Couldn't unions just follow actors' guilds and the like where there are no salary caps?

            • By karaterobot 2026-01-144:04

              When we're looking to the actors guilds for direction, you know the future of our industry might be in trouble.

            • By bob001 2026-01-1412:06

              It's not your choice. It's the choice of the average union member.

          • By data-ottawa 2026-01-144:361 reply

            I find it hard to believe workers would vote for a union to lower or cap their wages. That feels like a total straw man.

            In my experience unions suck when they overemphasize fairness over real world practicalities (see almost anything seniority based). They don't have to be that way.

            • By bob001 2026-01-1412:001 reply

              There is a large pay disparity. Why wouldn't someone at the 50th percentile vote to have those at the 95th get lower salaries so the 50th percentile goes up a bit?

              • By acdha 2026-01-1412:571 reply

                That’s not how unions work negotiations work, and the younger worker getting paid less is 100% thinking that they’ll be the senior guy some day.

                • By bob001 2026-01-1413:032 reply

                  "Senior". Looks like you've already made it a tenure and not output based pay system. Which I think proves exactly what people don't like about unions or those who push for them.

                  In an output based system the number of high level people is relatively small and terminal level is far from the top level. It doesn't take much for people to realize that there's little chance of them becoming an L8 so why shouldn't an L8 get paid less? Moreover in my experience people have little insight into the value those at higher levels provide so will consider them dead weight.

                  • By acdha 2026-01-1418:41

                    You’re welcome to try to get the entire industry to stop referring to junior and senior developers, engineers, etc. but most people know that experience is a distinguishing characteristic. The other huge mistake you’re making is assuming that compensation is based on performance in non-union shops. It certainly can be but almost everyone will collect counter examples as they get more career experience.

                    I would suggest considering who stands to benefit the most from the belief that high-performers don’t need unions, and whether the same companies which have been found guilty of wage-suppression would be above funding amplification for that sentiment. Tech workers gave up a ton of bargaining power for decades and while we certainly aren’t badly paid it’s worth remembering how, say, that settlement with Apple, Google, et al. didn’t fully make up the difference, not to mention the number of former high-fliers who hit things like the ageism wall long before they wanted to retire. In an uneven market with a huge imbalance in data visibility and negotiating power, unilateral disarmament by the weaker side doesn’t seem like the winning strategy.

                  • By Muromec 2026-01-1415:07

                    It's both really and that's why the scale is capped.

                    Union shops still have compensation levels. If your pay is defined as 85% of a scale L8 and the collective agreement says it gets increased by 2 and half percentage points each year, you will eventually reach 100% and will just sit there and still make 10k less than L9. The scale itself is adjusted yearly.

          • By DarkNova6 2026-01-1412:511 reply

            What you are saying is that companies would want to pay theor employees more money, but they can’t because of unions.

            Sorry, hard sell.

            • By pif 2026-01-1413:09

              > companies would want to pay theor employees more money, but they can’t because of unions

              Well, inkind-of sort-of makes sense. It happens that companies would like to spread the salary increase budget as they please, while unions tend to request that the lowest salaries get a larger share.

          • By denkmoon 2026-01-141:52

            That's right, no more "10xers" working 80 hr weeks making those who can't or won't look unproductive.

          • By Buttons840 2026-01-148:482 reply

            Reminder that unions don't have to do anything about salary.

            I'd love a tech union that simply says:

            Every time an on-call engineer has to work during off-hours, they get compensated 4x that time in PTO, and that PTO must be used during the next 30 days, or it is paid out at 20x their normal hourly rate.

            This ensures everyone shares in the burden of off-hours work. If off-hours work is happening often, then engineers are going to be spending a lot of time away on PTO, and if the company pressures them to not take the PTO, then the company is going to be paying them a lot. Let's align incentives, I don't want to work on off-hours emergencies, and the company doesn't want me to either.

            No mention of pay anywhere. Unions can do a lot of good without ever touching pay.

            • By bob001 2026-01-1411:591 reply

              Unions aren't about what you want them to be about but what the average member wants them to be about. More or less.

            • By Muromec 2026-01-149:17

              >Reminder that unions don't have to do anything about salary.

              The union is the party that negotiates my annual salary increases that are not performance related. They will however not negotiate it up to FANG level because it's not FANG and I'm not in US. I will also get mostly the same comp as the guys on the left and on the right even if they aren't really bright (I'm not either).

              >Every time an on-call engineer has to work during off-hours, they get compensated 4x that time in PTO, and that PTO must be used during the next 30 days, or it is paid out at 20x their normal hourly rate.

              why not 100x? why work off hours anyway?

          • By fastasucan 2026-01-167:10

            >Not just that, but the union would likely end up capping their salary much lower so the wealth can be spread around

            My union have never done that, why would it?

        • By ta-asdo989 2026-01-1415:45

          I had a job in twenty-nine When everything was going fine I knew the pace was pretty fast But thought that it would always last

          When organizers came to town I'd always sneer and turn them down I thought the boss was my best friend He'd stick by me to the end

          Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay! Ain't got a word to say He chiseled down my pay Then took my job away "Boom" went the boom one day It made a noise that way I wish I had been wise Next time I'll organize

        • By Herring 2026-01-1321:471 reply

          Again see Steve. Something can look like a good position and still rapidly deteriorate.

          This one wasn’t that rapid either, you had plenty of warning. I remember discussing inequality with friends in 2014, and probably knew about it since Occupy Wall Street (2011). Or earlier.

          • By bob001 2026-01-1321:512 reply

            Engineers were the privileged class. They were part of the group occupy wall street wanted to bring down. Not hard to guess why they didn't want that.

            • By nebula8804 2026-01-1323:081 reply

              Privileged is too generic of a word that does not accurately describe the cohorts. There is the capital class. Occupy was after the Capital class but im not sure if they accurately zeroed in on that. Its been too long since then.

              Engineers were never part of that class. They work for a living while capital owns assets that work for them.

              Engineers were part of the "Intellectual Elite" class that made good money but were super socially progressive. (Think putting BLM signs in their yards while at the same time pricing out the people they claim to help).

              They ended up becoming a lot of the Elizabeth Warren cohort after being the Hillary and Obama cohorts(before it fractured into part Bernie part MAGA with the rest going to Hillary).

              Extremely socially progressive but don't you dare touch economics.

              • By bob001 2026-01-1323:542 reply

                Having talked to Occupy Wall Street people at the time I don't think many on the ground differentiated as much as you think they did. I used a generic word because from my experience that is how they saw the world. I got told I deserved to have everything I own set on fire for saying I spent $100 on a nice dinner once. That was on the more extreme side but the sentiment seemed to not differentiate.

                • By reactordev 2026-01-141:551 reply

                  They basically hated on anyone making more than a livable wage at the time ($60k).

                  • By mcny 2026-01-143:02

                    It is possible they were mistaken. The extreme voices get magnified at these things, I'd guess.

                    Maybe it is an attempt to slow the shift in the Overton window?

                • By nebula8804 2026-01-143:201 reply

                  You missed what I said in my first paragraph. Occupy was after the capital class but they did not express it well. Looking back, a common criticism was that the movement was leaderless and thus unorganized. It was the early days of a new generation (Millennials) getting a first taste of the coming disaster their lives were going to be.

                  The last time there was really a movement like that was the 1999 WTO protests...more than a decade separated from Occupy and it being a pivotal moment for Gen X to realize the same lessons millennials learned in Occupy.

                  Since Occupy, a movement consisting of many of the same people who were disorganized in 2011 started to learn the ropes and become organized, first in the realignment of Labor (SEIU starting a "Fight for 15$" in 2012/2013), then the emergence of BLM in 2013(Yes they started back in 2013) as a result of death of Eric Garner and the Ferguson rallies among other events, to finally Sanders running in 2015 and the emergence of a semi organized movement combining various progressives groups (economic & social progressives).

                  This led to the whole saga in 2016 which there is plenty of youtube documentaries about to the wave election in 2018 (of which there is an amazing netflix movie about) to the showdown in 2020 between Bernie and Biden, to winding up wandering the political woods for years after Biden managed to hold on to now finally electing Mamdani as a Democratic Socialist in the largest city and the financial capital where Occupy started. From 2011 starting as a completely unorganized group to running the finance capital of America in just 15 years. Amazing!

                  • By bob001 2026-01-1418:371 reply

                    > Occupy was after the capital class

                    White washing history doesn't change the reality of what the people actually making up the movement wanted. Not what the self-elected spokespeople who had no actual power since there were no leaders said to make it all sound less threatening.

                    > From 2011 starting as a completely unorganized group to running the finance capital of America in just 15 years.

                    Always interesting how both the left and right forget democracy and checks and balanced and just assume the executive branch is a dictator when it's their wannabe dictator in power. :)

                    • By nebula8804 2026-01-1418:52

                      I don't even know what argument you are even trying to make anymore. Occupy had demands, they were not clear. I explained one reason why.

                      >Always interesting how both the left and right forget democracy and checks and balanced and just assume the executive branch is a dictator when it's their wannabe dictator in power. :)

                      Where did I assume that? Mamdani was elected with an amazing margin bringing out people who had given up on voting and many who had never felt to vote before. Essentially he began his term with a strong mandate. This is while everyone clearly knew he was a Democratic Socialist. He didn't become a dictator, the actual overton window of what is considered mainstream has shifted in just 15 years. Thats whats extraordinary.

            • By mothballed 2026-01-1321:583 reply

              I would say more precisely, engineers are closer to the managerial or capital wielding class; usually the adversary of the union.

              • By nebula8804 2026-01-1323:122 reply

                They are closer but they are not part of the class so does it really matter how close they are? Engineer still has to trade their time for wealth in the form of work. Capital class has assets that work for them.

                • By bob001 2026-01-140:001 reply

                  To me the only question is if there's a hypothetical revolution who will end up swinging in the wind by their neck and I have no doubt many engineers working for big tech would have been in that group. There's always nice rhetoric and focused rhetoric to not make too many enemies but the people on the ground differentiate a lot less and have in every revolution.

                  • By nebula8804 2026-01-143:023 reply

                    By the time there is a revolution, i'd imagine that most engineers will have fallen to the working classes where they are technically a part of.

                    Again, they are not part of the capital class. They were lucky to come across a special moment in time where there was a paradigm shift bringing with it enormous wealth and the capital class did not part with some of their wealth out of charity but out of greed because they realized that in order to capture this new found fountain of wealth they needed engineers...at least for the time being.

                    This allowed one generation (maybe two) to live a dignified solid upper middle class life but since the beginning there has always been a push to eliminate them.

                    Things such as low/no code, "learn to code", bootcamps, and now AI are attempts to destroy this avenue for people to rise above anything more than just worker class.

                    • By Izkata 2026-01-1419:341 reply

                      > By the time there is a revolution, i'd imagine that most engineers will have fallen to the working classes where they are technically a part of.

                      "Working class" isn't an adjective+noun that refers to anyone who works, it's a compound noun that specifically refers to physical labor. Knowledge workers of any sort are not part of it, despite both using the word "work".

                      • By nebula8804 2026-01-169:54

                        From Wikipedia:

                        "The working class is a group of people in a social hierarchy, typically defined by earning wages or salaries through their ability to work. Members of the working class rely primarily upon earnings from wage labour. Most common definitions of "working class" in use in the United States limit its membership to workers who hold blue-collar and pink-collar jobs, or whose income is insufficiently high to place them in the middle class, or both. However, socialists define "working class" to include all workers who fall into the category of requiring income from wage labour to subsist; thus, this definition can include almost all of the working population of industrialized economies."

                        [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class

                        Since I am referring to a hypothetical in the future, let me be more clear: I believe software developers will be relegated to blue collar or worse roles given enough time because it is in the interest of the capital class to find a way to make this happen. I gave examples in my prior comment.

                    • By lqstuart 2026-01-145:571 reply

                      It’s so depressing how right you are

                      • By nebula8804 2026-01-146:231 reply

                        Well on a positive note, it may eventually lead to a union or works council for technologists. Will coders be a part of that or will that skill set go the way of carpenter? Remains to be seen. But there is still other roles in tech that could take the place of coders (infrastructure, security etc.).

                        Also remains to be seen how long this process will take. Could take a decade or two but hopefully it will happen. Its just so nice to see little wins like a Democratic Socialist like Mamdani getting elected in the finance capital of America. It shows that people are slowly chipping away at the capital class and sooner or later they will have to throw us some breadcrumbs.

                        • By joe_mamba 2026-01-148:551 reply

                          >Well on a positive note, it may eventually lead to a union or works council for technologists.

                          Good luck fighting offshoring.

                          > It shows that people are slowly chipping away at the capital class and sooner or later they will have to throw us some breadcrumbs.

                          That means nothing. I'd be surprised if he can implement 10% of what he promised in his campaign or if he's just gonna be another plant of the capital class that promises impossible things but then ends up doing nothing when the finances hit the road.

                          • By nebula8804 2026-01-1417:071 reply

                            >Good luck fighting offshoring.

                            I always wondered why they don't try tariffs on this? American companies that produce overseas get tariffed regardless of origin. It changes incentives and forces production closer to areas of consumption. I suspect we are going to get there eventually, leadership needs to become more left progressive like Mamdani.

                            >That means nothing. I'd be surprised if he can implement 10% of what he promised in his campaign or if he's just gonna be another plant of the capital class that promises impossible things but then ends up doing nothing when the finances hit the road.

                            His ideas were not that radical. The fast and free busses came on the heel of a successful pilot they did with one line in each borough so its not like they are starting from scratch. They have an existing model and data from that trial to build on top of.

                            The grocery stores consist of one store in each borough. That is not an impossible task and it does not risk really affecting bodegas since the majority of income from most bodegas are lotto tickets and cigarettes/vapes.

                            Universal child care...well that have already passed this in his first week.

                            • By joe_mamba 2026-01-1417:131 reply

                              > that have already passed this in his first week.

                              It's always easy to pass laws to give people free stuff and it works well initially ... until you run out of money of course. That's how Venezuelan leadership also got popular. Who doesn't want more free stuff? It's how elections are won is most of Eastern/Southern Europe too. Until the bill is due and the next generation has to pay.

                              • By nebula8804 2026-01-1418:371 reply

                                I do agree that the bill has to be paid. I don't what we are going to do with the trillions of dollars of debt as a result of tax cuts for the rich, handouts to countries like Israel and so much more that does not directly help regular people. The US has been a piggybank for all the world to just loot and take advantage of. Given that this is the environment we are in, I am all for providing these breadcrumbs that Mamdani is proposing to regular people.

                                Sooner or later there will be a reckoning with all the money that has been stolen by the upper class. Without these small programs, that help people that reckoning will come faster but it will come either way.

                                • By joe_mamba 2026-01-1419:371 reply

                                  Except the new perks of New Yorkers voted for, will not come from the pockets of the super wealthy elite, but from debt and taxes paid by working class new yorkers themselves. Mandani won't tax the super wealthy more to pay for it.

                                  • By nebula8804 2026-01-1419:501 reply

                                    Mamdani plans to tax the wealthiest New Yorkers less than they spent on propaganda to try and defeat him but him not taxing the super wealthy at all is not true.

                                    • By joe_mamba 2026-01-1420:12

                                      >Mamdani plans to tax the wealthiest New Yorkers

                                      I'm in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp since if all political promises were cookies, i'd be fat.

                    • By ahf8Aithaex7Nai 2026-01-146:24

                      > Again, they are not part of the capital class.

                      I vaguely remember reading something recently, probably by Branko Milanović, about how there is a class of workers in the tech sector who earn so much money that they are gradually starting to become capitalists. When you have so much money left over that you can start putting your capital to work for you, you cross that very line. I don't mean a home savings plan or ETFs or anything like that, but if you have seven figures and can skim off returns that you could live well on, then you're definitely no longer working class.

              • By 1-more 2026-01-1421:25

                Usually lumped in with labor aristocracy along with lawyers and doctors. Can go either way when it pops off.

              • By OhMeadhbh 2026-01-1322:21

                i disagree. i also disagree that most people developing tech solutions for startups are engineers or are applying an engineering discipline. but i would agree that the majority of people in valley tech firms are closer to the rentier class than they are to working engineers.

        • By Muromec 2026-01-149:232 reply

          >A decent engineer in the US could make 5x their equivalent in most European nations. Staff+ engineers at FAANG could make 5x that. People in a good position tend to not like rocking the boat.

          So... 500k is the normal pay and 2.5mil is the staff+ pay, right? How many people you know actually make that?

          • By TuxSH 2026-01-1410:272 reply

            SWE rarely earn $100k gross/yr TC in Western European nations. It's closer to $50k~$80k in many cases.

            • By Muromec 2026-01-1411:231 reply

              I rounded up a bit for nicer numbers, but it's more like 75-95 than 50-80 this year.

              • By TuxSH 2026-01-1414:541 reply

                For good companies; there are _quite_ a few companies that underpay and not as many interesting job opportunities. Let's just say "at least 2x~2.5" and move on.

                Also, even if you did not mention it, UK is a bit of a special case (English-speaking countries that has thus been attracting quite a lot of international talent (and companies) at least until recently), I wouldn't put it in the same bucket as EU countries.

                • By Muromec 2026-01-1415:09

                  There is a lot of everything and I got lowballed with 85 today (with three mandatory hebeas corpus days, while the rest of the team is in a different country lol).

                  I'm not sure where the UK part comes from zo? Nobody upthread mentioned it.

            • By KptMarchewa 2026-01-1411:211 reply

              It's higher in Poland lol.

              • By zipy124 2026-01-1412:40

                Source?

                Levels.fyi puts it at $67k median.

                Glassdoor puts it at closer to $40k.

                Neither of these are above the levels given above.

          • By bob001 2026-01-1412:131 reply

            I was talking about the good days over the last decade and not now. As someone noted Europe made $50-80k. So around $250-400k. I knew a ton that made that. Basically anyone above junior at a tech company including late stage startups and second tier tech companies. Fully remote in many cases. At Staff+ FAANG if you were there a couple years then your RSUs would very likely push you above $1m and possibly above $2m. I think the most I heard of was someone making $10m/year and being deathly afraid of a layoff. Nowadays its AI companies which if you're lucky enough to get into and know ML will pay $2m+/year as your comp even at merely staff levels. If the bubble doesn't burst before IPOs then I know ICs whose next few generations won't need to work.

            • By Muromec 2026-01-1412:16

              If you talk about before AI bullshit started, the numbers kinda make sense actually.

              >I think the most I heard of was someone making $10m/year and being deathly afraid of a layoff.

              Jeez, some people.

        • By mji 2026-01-142:49

          Until recently?

          Now it's 20x at the AI labs instead of 5x at FAANG.

        • By nonethewiser 2026-01-142:39

          Still do

      • By Aurornis 2026-01-141:55

        There are unionized engineer jobs in the United States. Every time this conversation comes up people act like we don’t have any unions, but that’s not true. There are unionized engineering jobs.

        One of them even tried striking a couple years ago, quite publicly. They ended the strike a couple days later without gaining anything.

        I think American engineers know their situation and options better than you think.

      • By Onavo 2026-01-142:47

        Steve Jobs was also an expert at suppressing software engineering wages. Karma has a funny way of coming around.

      • By raw_anon_1111 2026-01-1414:40

        Exactly how do you think unions would help for tech workers?

      • By thedevilslawyer 2026-01-144:151 reply

        Unionization does not happen because it's typically anti-immigrants. It's an unworkable solution, and liking it will magically make it work.

        • By oenton 2026-01-144:31

          Curious, what do you mean by 'anti-immigrants'?

    • By exabrial 2026-01-143:543 reply

      Former Alibaba employee for a season of my life. I have to be careful with my next sentences because on the internet because it's easy for people to read things in a vacuum and interpret in the worse possible way, so don't do that because thats not how I mean it. The 996 hours are not useful work. It's appearance over productivity.

      • By numpy-thagoras 2026-01-144:171 reply

        Yep, if you were to watch what happens at a 996 shop, it's people literally living their at-home life with their fellow employees for most of the time.

        • By Gravityloss 2026-01-1414:572 reply

          Why is this theater kept up?

          • By exabrial 2026-01-1517:23

            It's societal. I don't really have a way I can translate it for someone raised in the Western culture.

            Counter example:

            While westerners would look at 996 with confusion, Chinese would look at Western "intellectual property" constructs with confusion. To them it's not "copying", it's they figured out a better way to do it and the rest is fair game.

          • By nemomarx 2026-01-1414:59

            Bosses like it, and maybe it keeps people from interviewing for other jobs?

      • By phendrenad2 2026-01-1414:161 reply

        I've worked with a few coworkers who came from a 996 environment and kept doing it out of habit. As I was young and impressionable, I started doing it also. I'm not going to be careful with my sentence: these people were absolutely NOT getting more work done than others, in fact they seemed to move glacially, because they had so many more hours to fill up. It's a total footgun, and it chases away good people once the rot reaches management and they start promoting based on perception rather than reality.

        • By jghn 2026-01-1417:32

          This has been the case for these setups long before 996 came in vogue. For the extreme majority of people there's an upper bound on what they can actually get done over a period of time. Trying to squeeze more out of that becomes performative.

          As a similar anecdote, when I was at university a few decades ago there was one major where students were pretty insular. They were well known for very long hours in their building, some people would stay there a few days at a time even.

          Then I had one as a roommate. He kept normal hours. he didn't work any more or harder than any of the rest of us. He explained that in their building it was mostly socializing, parties, and playing around. He went in, did his work, and left.

          After that moment I approached it with eyes wide open and saw this play out over and over again in my life.

      • By burnt-resistor 2026-01-1413:21

        The mythology is:

        - 30 people between the ages of 18 and 25 sharing a tiny, single office room working on folding tables and CAT 7 cables hanging from the ceiling

        - Whiteboards from floor to ceiling on every wall covered in scribbles and diagrams in red, black, and blue pen, half-erased with some "SAVE FOREVER" circled parts

        - Typing really fast on loud, clicky keyboards

        - Doing nothing but coding or working 18 hours/day with no life at all

        - Living at work in sleeping bags

        - Surviving on cold delivered pizza, hot instant ramen, and coffee with only a mini fridge, a microwave, and a coffee pot

        - Spending absurdly little money on everything

        The problem is that if even one gigabusiness began vaguely in such a manner, someone will declare some aspect(s) were "essential" and try to cargo cult the "hard work" pseudo-signals without considering sustainability or that it's even necessary. There are far too many engineers who will overwork themselves until they reach burn out or will not maximize real productivity by working less and taking breaks/vacations, and then won't want to work on a venture at all anymore.

        PSA: Don't be a sucker and don't work for below market rates. Eschew working for other people and megacorps when possible; form unions, worker-owned co-ops, and/or get significant amounts of preferred liquidation-preference shares.

    • By tyre 2026-01-1322:111 reply

      I would tell a recruiter directly that 996 is a red flag.

      Prior to that it was cracked (née 10x (née ninja)) engineers or sigma grindset or whatever.

      It's performative. If you bring people together to build something that they actually give a shit about, you'll out-perform a group of people who are grinding out of fear. And you'll _definitely_ out-perform the kinds of people who are buzzword heavy.

      • By OhMeadhbh 2026-01-1322:282 reply

        i agree. but. there's something in the behaviour of these unicorns that should be examined.

        the idea that an engineer can be a ninja, 10x or unicorn independent of the processes of their environment and working group is laughable. i have known several people who were identified as "highly productive" and they all had some individual traits like a) they were very good with individual time management, b) were not afraid to say when they didn't understand something and c) were all pretty smart. (and d, knew how to give good code review comments without pissing people off.)

        but... they also needed an environment where they could push back and say things like "i do not feel participating in today's 1-on-1 meeting (or meeting with product management) is a good use of my time", where task design gave them chunks of work that were appropriate and they were given the freedom to identify (and avoid) "wicked" problems.

        which is to say... i don't think the story of the ninja/unicorn is complete fantasy, but management has to understand how it's real and craft an environment where an engineer's inner-unicorn can emerge.

        • By tyre 2026-01-1322:391 reply

          I've been an early employee (sub 10 and 20) in two unicorns and another (a presidential campaign) that didn't have a valuation but did the equivalent. People did not work 40 hours per week, and I feel comfortable saying that the companies could not have been as successful if people had.

          The common threads were:

          - incredible ICs

          - founders who spiked in the most important areas for that market

          - a mission that everyone truly believed in

          - a culture of people who deeply cared about one another but were comfortable pushing back (as you said!)

          It's incredibly rare to find all of these together. I agree that management is responsible for helping others thrive, but not necessarily that they should shape the environment to fit any engineer. Some people want things (projects, challenges, roles) that don't make sense in that company's context. It's okay, especially when it's hard, to agree that this isn't the place for someone.

          • By appellations 2026-01-144:112 reply

            Are you saying people worked less than 40 hours a week or more than 40 hours a week in those organizations? I’m assuming over, but it’s unclear to me from the tone of your post.

            • By snovv_crash 2026-01-1411:56

              Been there too, and for me it was under 40 hours. Sometimes you'd have to cut people off and say they needed to go home if they were trying to pull more. But the whole 'strategy' is that cleaning up mistakes takes way more time than getting it right the first time, so keeping people fresh and without distractions is the most important thing.

            • By tyre 2026-01-1414:42

              Over 40 hours and it wasn’t particularly close.

        • By hhmc 2026-01-1413:061 reply

          What is a ‘wicked’ problem?

    • By cmrdporcupine 2026-01-1321:33

      What happened? Started with Musk purging half his staff ...

      I've been around long enough in this industry to see the pendulum swing back and forth a few times. The peak of 2020/2021 was the epitome of "spoiled tech worker" but now we're well on our way the other side, I'd say.

    • By Aurornis 2026-01-141:521 reply

      > And now, the strongest claim this blog can make is that some engineers in the US would disengage from recruiting?

      The statement was specifically about top 1% engineers in Silicon Valley. That’s a very, very small subset of all engineers in the US.

      The pointy end of the talent spectrum in SV is a very weird place because it has had a lot of engineers for whom work is life. Living at the office and having coworkers working 24/7 might be something they like.

      I’m not condoning this or saying it’s common. It’s not common. However, once you narrow down to the extreme outliers in the long tail of talent distribution you will find a lot of people who are downright obsessive about their work. Their jobs also pay north of $1mm including equity, so spending a few years of their life 996ing on a topic they love with energized people isn’t exactly a bad deal for them.

      In general, if a recruiter told an average engineer that 996 was expected that would be the end of that conversation. Average US engineers are not signing up for 996 for average compensation.

      • By the_mar 2026-01-146:09

        I am this person (not a genius or whatever) but work is absolutely life for me. I still absolutely resent the 996 culture and would never do that. I'd like to have agency when I want to abuse myself

    • By JTbane 2026-01-1418:25

      The fact that 996 is coming to America is an ill omen for worker's rights and, well, society in general IMO.

    • By huflungdung 2026-01-1322:34

      [dead]

    • By AndrewKemendo 2026-01-143:36

      Sentiment is changing

      If you had enough time to look back through my post history, you’ll find back in 2021 2022 I was loud as hell Screaming from as high as I could on this board primarily that we need to be doing everything we possibly could do to unionize, build labor cooperatives etc. and absolutely nobody gave a shit.

      I would get roasted every time and that’s fine I know what I’m doing.

      but the attitudes are changing and while it’s frustrating to have to deal with that I feel like being a Hector on this topic is just the entry fee.

      I’m extremely dissatisfied at the pace and scale and lack of leaders and organization and push back and etc… so I expect the next two years to be really really really bad and the hope is that people wake up at a large enough scale that they actually are able to affect something but I don’t have a lot of hope for that.

      What I describe is not real activism imo but at least I can tell you from first hand documentation that sentiment is changing.

  • By johnfn 2026-01-144:2212 reply

    > Motivation is a hired trait. The only place where managers motivate people is in management books.

    This seems entirely false to me. To be honest it is so incorrect it significantly puts into question the rest of the article.

    1. I have absolutely had managers motivate me to work harder. I have also had managers completely demotivate me and cause me to quit. How on earth can anyone who has worked in the industry for any amount of time say that "The only place where managers motivate people is in management books"?

    2. Of course most of the facile strategies mentioned in the article (like 996, micromanaging, etc) won't work. The article then generalizes this to all strategies - but "if terrible methods can't solve it, nothing possibly can" feels like a shaky argument at best. A good manager understands this, and motivates by helping you understand how the things you are doing are actually critical to the success of the team and the company. (If success of the company isn't something you're interested in, then yes, it's going to be hard to motivate you.) A poor manager sabotages motivation in a hundred different ways - he makes you feel like your efforts are totally wasted, or fails to articulate why they are important.

    • By f1shy 2026-01-147:145 reply

      I’ve been working for more than 30 years. I was seriously demotivated by managers, but never motivated by them. The beat I got was protection from them to give me free space to work. But the motivation was always internal.

      Being a manager myself, I never got to motivate anybody do anything they didn’t want to. If they wanted to, it worked, but the motivation AFAIK was internal.

      Of course that is one person speaking. Milage can vary.

      • By gen220 2026-01-1413:081 reply

        This is a core part of systemantics [0]! People are going to do what they’re going to do, as a manager the most you can do to help is to put people in the right teams and to get distractions out of their way.

        It’s a difficult idea to accept but once you accept it, it’s kind of liberating. It follows that hiring and then work-assignments during roadmapping are the two points of highest leverage in making a mutually-successful employee-manager relationship.

        The problem you’re solving there is a search problem. You’re trying to discover if the employee’s motivation landscape peaks in any dimensions that align with the roadmap. They can be the most skilled person in the world, but if the peaks don’t overlap, the project will never run smoothly. It also follows that in extreme cases where you have a tenured employee that you want to retain for future work, you should absolutely let them drive and shape the roadmap.

        [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemantics

        • By f1shy 2026-01-1413:39

          I read that book as I was 8 or 10! Must be still in my head!

      • By AdamN 2026-01-148:172 reply

        You're making a nuanced point but it's correct. Good managers can give a little motivation (mostly by talking about and finding the right areas to work on for those people that don't otherwise already know). But for the most part good management is buffering the core that allows individuals own motivation to be self-sustaining (and productive over time) and also making sure that people aren't on a path that won't be useful (i.e. the manager knows the company will never fund phase 2).

        • By ubercore 2026-01-149:221 reply

          Good managers will help you find your own motivation and set you up to follow it. Bad managers will kill it.

          • By cudgy 2026-01-1410:531 reply

            In this case, I would prefer an average manager that does not try to interfere with my motivations.

            • By skeeter2020 2026-01-1414:01

              this makes sense, but can be at odds with the reason you're there. If your manager is not working to align your personal motivations with those of the organization they are failing. I don't believe it's a spectrum of good-bad management and "level of motivational interference". An "average manager" just does a weak job at the individual-organizational alignment.

        • By n4r9 2026-01-1411:071 reply

          Great managers absolutely can provide motivation. They can have a genuinely compelling vision for a product - "we're going to build the best damn FooGadget on the web". They can figure out what motivates their reports and work to make it transparent to them - for example some engineers like to see positive client feedback, whilst other engineers like having thorny problems to solve.

          • By ljm 2026-01-1411:383 reply

            Yes. It stands to reason that if a manager can demotivate you, then they must be able to do the opposite. Both building the vibe and killing it can achieve that in terms of extrinsic motivation, culture, the psychological contract, and so on.

            These are important factors to consider for people who work in highly collaborative teams as opposed to those who prefer to be 10x lone wolves, which is the impression I get from the article and the overall startup vibe I've experienced over the past few years.

            HN might be over-indexed on the "leave me alone to do my work", "I don't have friends I have colleagues," type of person but it's not representative of the entire population.

            • By skeeter2020 2026-01-1414:09

              >> highly collaborative teams as opposed to those who prefer to be 10x lone wolves

              I was a decent developer and a much better manager, and I think a big part of it was I learned these are different games. By the time we hit multiple dev teams I had good success framing it wtih senior ICs like this: "If you want to get 10% better (better in context of what they are defining) this year, that's really, really hard. But it would be easy for you to make everyone on the team 2-3% better, and our net improvement would be well over 10%." We then talk & plan relatively straight-forward ways to make this happen, and mix in explicit personal improvement/growth components. They're motivated, they make their teammates motivated, they make me motivated. Meanwhile the 10x'er (not sure I've had one of those) keeps grinding it out in the minor leagues.

            • By ragall 2026-01-1412:012 reply

              > It stands to reason that if a manager can demotivate you, then they must be able to do the opposite.

              You share that with no justification. There's no such "reason".

              • By ljm 2026-01-1414:511 reply

                It would be more useful if you explained why the rest of my comment didn't provide a good enough reason (because of your clear dissatisfaction with the first sentence of it), because this is just snark that doesn't further a conversation.

                Anyone can quote a subset of a message and drop a remark without substance after all, but I didn't come on HN to read Twitter-quality stuff.

                • By ragall 2026-01-1616:19

                  You started it buddy.

              • By philipallstar 2026-01-1412:241 reply

                > There's no such "reason"

                You share that with no justification.

                • By pessimizer 2026-01-1415:202 reply

                  It stands to reason that if gravity can make things fall down, it can make things fall up.

                  It stands to reason that if an earthquake can collapse a building that it can build one.

                  It stands to reason that if rat poison can kill rats then it can make them stronger.

                  ("reason" left to be worked out by the reader as an exercise)

                  • By ljm 2026-01-1519:591 reply

                    It stands to reason that if someone makes an argument you can make a strawman against it.

                    In this thread, a manager is compared to earthquakes, ratpoison and gravity… which has fuck all to do with management.

                    Come on…just say if you don’t like something, like “I don’t like managers and you can’t change my mind.” Be fucking honest for a minute.

                    Have some god damn conviction instead of this weaksauce shit. Interpersonal relationships are obviously not subject to the laws of thermodynamics.

                    • By josecodea 2026-01-206:52

                      It stands to reason that if a clown can upset you at work, they can also cheer you up. (no, not really lol)

                  • By player1234 2026-01-1418:11

                    [dead]

      • By Y-bar 2026-01-147:561 reply

        I want to hazard a guess that a motivational manager is just like a well-oiled cog in a machine. You essentially never notice them as having influence over your motivation and only pay attention to the squeaky and rattling and faulty ones.

        • By lan321 2026-01-1413:062 reply

          The best one I had in that regard was just a nice dude who I wanted to help as much as I could since he'd help me when needed. I don't think any other way would really work in the current landscape. Whenever a manager talks about our grand product and the clients dying to get a taste of our artisinal code stew, even they can't take themselves entirely seriously. The only thing that seems to help is just being liked so your team wants to make your life easier. (outside of money/benefits/promotions and maybe short term gaslighting)

          • By skeeter2020 2026-01-1414:15

            I've found the best managers are very aware of the "clueless manager" trope and suffer from imposter's syndrome more than most, but use that to make them good managers doing what you said: recognizing & owning where they are blind or lack skill (working on it, asking for help), helping where they can (doing a share of the shit work, or backfilling holes), and trying to be a nice person (building a relationship beyond the manager-employee dynamic). This doesn't mean they are your friend, but most people want to work (and win!) with people they like.

          • By josecodea 2026-01-206:54

            but we are a family /s

      • By skeeter2020 2026-01-1413:56

        >> I never got to motivate anybody do anything they didn’t want to.

        I'd be willing to bet that as a manager you've gotten people to do the shit work no one wants to though, mostly by explaining why & how it's important, sharing it across the entire team, working to eliminate dumb parts of it and stepping in to do some of it yourself - and yes, occasionally assigning it directly. To me, that's motivation: sustainably coordinating energies in a shared direction for the greater good.

      • By yolo3000 2026-01-149:111 reply

        I think you can indirectly motivate, or is that something else? If you create a good working/team environment and reduce the factors that demotivate people, then you will indirectly motivate them. This includes working on yourself as a manager. There are of course edge cases, but most people will thrive if the environment is good.

        • By Draiken 2026-01-1410:42

          I agree with the parent because what you're describing doesn't indirectly motivate people, it merely avoids demotivation. If the person doesn't feel motivated by themselves (e.g. someone burned out or who does not care) they won't suddenly be motivated because the environment is good. It's still an internal force.

    • By friendzis 2026-01-148:123 reply

      > A good manager understands this, and motivates by helping you understand how the things you are doing are actually critical to the success of the team and the company

      Your definition of a "good manager" is essentially "does not actively sabotage work of subordinates". That's not motivation, that's merely absence of active demotivation. A person knowing how and in what ways their work contributes to the success of the unit and the whole are absolute basics and if a person is not aware of those either their manager is incompetent as hell or actively hostile.

      Reminds me of those job ads where "benefits" section contains gems like "salary paid on time". That is not a benefit, that is such a basic that even mentioning it puts into question everything about such company.

      • By n4r9 2026-01-1412:001 reply

        Disagree. This is explicitly active: "helping you understand how the things you are doing are actually critical to the success of the team". It could include building out a team dashboard that tracks the consequences of bugfixes, for example.

        • By friendzis 2026-01-1415:541 reply

          Sorry, I do not understand which part do you disagree with.

          > This is explicitly active

          Is merely being active (hopefully towards eventual success) automatically places a manager among "good managers"? What defines an "average manager" then?

          I have explored this in more detail in a reply to a sibling. I see "helping you understand how the things you are doing are actually critical to the success of the team" as a critical work of any manager, therefore I find it strange when such duties are attributed to "good" management.

          • By n4r9 2026-01-1416:26

            It is critical. Done well, it motivates people. Some managers are better at it than others; some are great at it. Such managers are actually motivating rather employees rather than avoiding demotivation.

      • By watwut 2026-01-1414:121 reply

        > Your definition of a "good manager" is essentially "does not actively sabotage work of subordinates".

        This is not even remotely what that person said. They said "motivates by helping you understand how the things you are doing are actually critical to the success of the team and the company". That is not nearly "does not actively sabotage".

        > A person knowing how and in what ways their work contributes to the success of the unit and the whole are absolute basics

        Oh please. If you reject every single thing good managers do to motivate people as "does not count" then of course you will end up with nothing. It is super easy to not see how this or that contributes to the success of a thing. It is also possible to be in position where you are in fact not contributing to the success - while you created an illusion in your head about how important you are.

        • By friendzis 2026-01-1415:351 reply

          > They said "<...>". That is not nearly "does not actively sabotage".

          We seem to be misaligned on some fundamental level here. We are in a thread countering the notion that motivation is primarily intrinsic. My stance is that understanding the impact of individual contributions is crucial to net positive contribution towards overall success and is a tool in IC toolbox. Therefore, I value lack of such alignment as demotivating and alignment being present as motivation-neutral. In my book this is one of the core duties of a manager.

          > Oh please. If you reject every single thing good managers do to motivate people as "does not count" then of course you will end up with nothing.

          If you include every single thing managers do then you will simply end up shifting the definition so that every manager is "good". What's so suddenly wrong with being everyday average Joe? I do dismiss some things that not being done would reduce motivation below baseline. If a developer is expected to build a notoriously slow to compile template-heavy, multi-million sloc c++ codebase multiple times a day, a latest and greatest workstation managing the build in reasonable times is just a tool, not some motivational perk. On the other hand, a potato running the build for 4 hours would be demotivating.

          So yes, I do reject alignment on things critical to overall success from things good managers do as that is something everyday regular normal manager should be doing anyway.

          • By watwut 2026-01-1420:23

            Different IC define useful differently and the same discussion with two of them will lead to different understanding of whether they do useful work. Not every IC is motivated just or primary by that either. Many are more of about social recognition, validation, proving themselves on something they perceive as difficult.

            Obviously useful teams with obviously useful members who fully understand they are useful frequently end up demotivated because they lack what they actually need to be motivated and perceive it unfair considering they are useful.

            > If you include every single thing managers do then you will simply end up shifting the definition so that every manager is "good". What's so suddenly wrong with being everyday average Joe?

            Why cant average Joe manager be a good manager? Or a good programmer or what have you? In well run organizations, they are. I have worked in teams where everyone or nearly everyone was good programmer and manager was good.

            Also, in most companies, the quality of hardware is not on lower lever manager. These budget decisions are made closer to CEO levels.

      • By johnfn 2026-01-1418:23

        Not really? At a small startup, sure, this should be obvious, but a manager who is able to articulate how my work bubbles up to company success at a 1000 eng company, in a way that makes sense, is a pretty rare breed.

    • By solatic 2026-01-147:47

      I'll agree with you that the author tried to put in a sound bite and it failed to clarify the author's point.

      The author is trying to argue for hiring early engineers who have exhibited ownership values and who want to take ownership for their work. These are the people for whom you establish "extreme transparency" (see: late in the post), a Google Doc for them to help align with others on high-level plans, a kitchen for people to informally talk in, and then get out of their way. That kind of environment is indeed in and of itself quite motivating for a certain kind of engineer.

      Of course, it doesn't scale to BigCorp-size. Eventually you have too many cooks in the kitchen. The truth is that the vast majority of engineers really do want someone to tell them exactly what to do, so that they can come in to a highly structured 9-5 job and earn a paycheck that pays their mortgage and feeds their family. Author's prescriptions do not apply to large companies or to most engineers, and Author makes it clear as such.

    • By jimbo808 2026-01-146:202 reply

      I've only experienced de-motivation from managers, personally. At least for me, motivation comes from ownership, impact, autonomy, respect. You can cause me to lose motivation in a lot of ways, but you can't really cause me to gain motivation unless you've already de-motivated me somehow.

      You can de-motivate me in a lot of ways, some examples:

      - throwing me or a coworker under the bus for your mistakes

      - crediting yourself for the work of someone else

      - attempting to "motivate" me when I'm already motivated

      - manufacturing a sense of urgency, this is especially bad if you try to sustain this state all indefinitely

      - using AI or market conditions as a fear tactic to motivate the team

      - visibly engaging in any kind of nepotism

      Honestly this list could go on and on, but those are some that come to mind.

      • By trusche 2026-01-149:28

        > manufacturing a sense of urgency, this is especially bad if you try to sustain this state all indefinitely

        Sadly, I have seen this in almost every startup led by founders without an engineering background I've ever been a part of.

        In my personal experience, this is often caused by overeager sales team promising the world for the next deal, only to fob it off to the engineering team who now "urgently" need to build "features" and "work hard" to make it happen. This is when your intrinsically motivated engineers start looking for the exit.

      • By theshrike79 2026-01-148:02

        Also:

        - not letting me have ownership of what I build and dictating features

        - not giving me autonomy of how to solve a problem

    • By xkbarkar 2026-01-148:261 reply

      I have experienced both.

      I d argue its not the manager that motivates people that can only be found inbooks. Its the manager that can come in and mend a toxic and dysfunctional team.

      The toxic teams end up breaking good managers in the end and they either become part of the problem or leave.

      The hero manager described in the phoenix project is a myth.

      The motivational one imho is very real but they need a good platform just like everyone else.

      • By boobsbr 2026-01-1412:07

        In my experience, no manager can fix a toxic, dysfunctional team.

        That team is doomed and the best course of action is to disband it and let the worst people go.

    • By evalstate 2026-01-147:36

      A lot of those books are more about persuasion than motivation - they can look similar from a distance.

    • By skeeter2020 2026-01-1413:49

      The author seems to lack any sort of understanding of motivation beyond some sort of vague, blackbox "fire in the belly" concept. This is definitely not true. My take aligns with yours: motivation is a vector, having both magnitude and direction. You want individuals with the fire and then somehow need to figure out how to direct the combined heat. In the earlier stages of an externally-funded venture this is the difference between building a jet engine and pouring gasoline on a campfire. I agree you don't need a manager to do this, but also feel strongly that by the time you're at multiple teams your CTO-founder is also the wrong person. They're probably a core developer who earned the title with limited experience; don't make them learn how to manage a dev team's day-to-day while they also learn every aspect of engineering management. I wish every CTO started as a team lead, but in this scenario it's too late. CTOs largely lead the parade, but you're devs need a servant-leader in the trenches who can articulate from the front, constrain the sides and push from behind.

    • By tayo42 2026-01-145:535 reply

      So what did those managers do to make you more motivated?

      • By sgillen 2026-01-146:15

        In addition to what the other responses said:

        1. Share a cohesive and inspiring vision for the project.

        2. Understand your skills, strengths/weaknesses etc and try to give you work that challenges you / help you grow / are interesting.

        I think these are rare and can be hard to do (I'm now trying to do it myself!), but when it happens it's very motivating.

      • By dannersy 2026-01-145:57

        Cared about anything other than their own upward movement, actively worked towards my professional development, made sure I had actual, not hand wavey, feedback, and made sure my compensation reflected my growing responsibility.

        I am aware that all of those things may not be in their power to give, but some combination of that in any org that is somewhat functional would be motivating.

      • By idontwantthis 2026-01-145:57

        Treat me like a human being, work with me to set reasonable expectations, share blame and focus praise.

      • By rectang 2026-01-147:13

        I had one manager who got extremely excited about whatever you were working on. It was infectious and motivated most of the team including myself. He’s an innately curious person, but also whip smart and surely developed this skill deliberately.

        I had another boss, a founder, who had a difficult relationship with engineering but was extremely gifted and had a great vision. I found myself highly motivated at this company as well, but for wholly different reasons. There are many paths to success.

        Both startups had successful exits, and I felt as though I contributed meaningfully to both.

      • By friendzis 2026-01-148:17

        I have read the sibling comments here and it is so saddening. The general expectations for management are, apparently, so low, that a manager attempting to do some duties in their job description is lauded as some savior. <crying-cat.jpg>

    • By Nemi 2026-01-1420:30

      The point is that the 'maximum motivation level' for an employee is an inherent trait. It is a ceiling. Some people have high ceilings and some don't. If an employee has a low ceiling, no manager can motivate that employee higher.

      But if someone has a high ceiling, the most a manager can do is create an environment that allows the employee to achieve their max potential. A bad manager on the other hand, can very easily bring a normally high-potential motivated employee down to mediocre levels.

      If you are one of those self-aware leaders that knows how to create an environment where people can excel, then hiring highly motivated people is the winning strategy.

    • By zeroq 2026-01-146:46

      It is.

      Motivation is a whimsical thing.

        The fantastic element that explains the appeal of games to many developers is neither the fire-breathing monsters nor the milky-skinned, semi-clad sirens; it is the experience of carrying out a task from start to finish without any change in the user requirements.
      
      As a lead or mgmt I set my highest priorities to:

      (a) make sure that the goals are set to stone and crystal clear

      (b) the team can do their work without any unnecessary distractions

      (c) try to remove some of these "necessary" distractions as well

      It can be really hard. And it can very ungrateful. I aim to be a nightwatchman, and I'm really proud of myself when the team thinks I'm getting paid for nothing. The bigger the structure the bigger the drama and I don't want them to be any part of it.

      Meanwhile I struggle with stakeholders who are like "c'mon, you already build the skyscraper, we just want you to move the parking lot from the underground to second story, how hard can it be, you have all the parts in place, just move them around".

    • By pavel_lishin 2026-01-1417:29

      The author seems to be thinking of word "motivate" in the way that someone in the olden days would motivate a donkey - with a whip. Every example they're listing is not "motivation", it's effectively forcing additional work and hours. No motivation is happening there.

  • By burnto 2026-01-1321:268 reply

    > Motivation is a hired trait. The only place where managers motivate people is in management books

    Initial motivation is the hired trait. It’s very easy to demotivate people. The trick is to not do that.

    • By tyre 2026-01-1322:151 reply

      Yeah this 100%.

      One of my core philosophies as a manager is that by default I should get the fuck out of the way. From there, identify the biggest issues and solve them.

      If you're successful hiring great people, I really don't understand the desire to micromanage them. Or do silly things that are demotivating, like 996 or trying to mislead them / market things / hide the bad stuff.

      Treating people like adults is that One Neat Trick that influencer bloggers don't want you to know.

      • By lovich 2026-01-1323:13

        > Treating people like adults is that One Neat Trick that influencer bloggers don't want you to know.

        In the companies below Big Tech in valuation at least, having been in the room with drunken executives speaking their real thoughts multiple times, I’ve found it’s because they don’t want to treat people like adults.

        They want serfs to order around because they have some cultural value around being “the boss” and you can’t be “the boss” if you aren’t telling people what to do. The more things you tell them to do, the more of a boss you are.

        It’s how you get executives crowing to you about all of these faang ideas like google’s 20% time back in the day, or engineers being able to vote with their feet and only attend meetings they found useful, but then have people on pips because they were consistently 30-60 seconds late to daily standups.

        It’s not the only failure mode by far, but having leadership like that seems like a cause for companies getting hard stuck below a billion in profit

    • By OhMeadhbh 2026-01-1322:311 reply

      we used to say "employees don't quit jobs, they quit managers." i was very happy at Amazon until they moved me under a sub-optimal manager. i quit less than a month later. that manager got promoted. this will tell you everything you need to know about working at Amazon.

      maybe they were trying to get me to quit. maybe that area's director was incompetent. maybe both.

      • By tayo42 2026-01-142:133 reply

        Do managers ever get fired or fail? All of my worst managers seem to keep moving up the ladder from what I see on LinkedIn. I don't understand it.

        • By evilduck 2026-01-1414:33

          Coming back to this with a late reply of more experiences, but it doesn't seem that unique for management from my perspective.

          When I was an IC I dealt with a ton of software engineer peers who were pretty bad at their job and managed to stay in the field as a software engineer. I was constantly cleaning up or compensating for them. As a manager I've had to let someone go because they literally could not be demoted to a level commensurate with their abilities (there's nothing below junior, they must be able to perform commits of new work and couldn't despite months of training and support, and they refused an alternate career track in QA before being PIP'd), and yet... after a stint of unemployment that person failed upwards with an even higher engineering title at a new organization, bringing along an obviously lacking skill set and what had to be a pretty falsified resume and career experience discussion with said new employer.

          The only complete exit from software engineering that I've witnessed was someone so bad at their job that they became perpetually unemployed and finally called it quits and left the industry after about 7 years of being fired or laid off back to back continuously.

          The world's beginning to change but for a long time a verifiable title with the right number of years next to it would get you a long ways in the corporate software rat race.

        • By wavemode 2026-01-144:37

          Managers have to manage up and manage down. Lots of managers succeed in their careers by being good at managing up, despite being awful at managing down.

        • By evilduck 2026-01-142:381 reply

          As a manager, yeah I’ve seen several of my peers wash out of the role for one reason or another. It happens. Usually it’s self selected though, disliking the inherent drama, having difficult to work with employees, moving up from engineering and realizing that was actually what they loved, etc.

          But a bad people manager who still manages resources and timelines and expectations isn’t necessarily bad for business. Promoting them up into a more strategic role that deals less with managing a larger group of individuals directly isn’t necessarily a bad move either.

          • By ryandrake 2026-01-1416:58

            I've also seen bad "lower level" managers fail downward. But I think at some point on the manager totem-pole, you become this weird "invulnerable royalty," and always fail upward. You never see VPs get fired and move back down to 3rd-level managers. You never see SVPs get fired and move back down to being mere VPs. They always get fired and then move over to Dell or Intel or something at an even more senior level than they were at their previous company.

    • By cmrdporcupine 2026-01-1321:311 reply

      Yep people have all sorts of sources of motivations. One of the key ones is a sense of ownership. Many people join startups instead of BigCorp because they want voice and influence that they don't get in a larger company. I've seen so many founders, managers, leaders, etc kill that by not recognizing this fundamental fact.

      Of course there's also the problem that you can find and hire people who are motivated people but there's absolutely no guarantee people are going to be motivated for your specific problem.

      • By OhMeadhbh 2026-01-1321:38

        thank you. can i hire you to run one of my teams? i've been trying to explain this to my managers for half a decade.

    • By al_borland 2026-01-1321:501 reply

      A bad manager can turn a great employee into a good one. It’s really hard to go back once that happens.

      • By tyre 2026-01-1322:171 reply

        I'd go further: a bad manager can turn a great engineer into a very bad one. People look up to great people, and when the strongest performers are demotivated, that spreads.

        Commonly in the cultures that end up this way, leadership blames / gaslights the ICs. It's toxic and honestly kind of heartbreaking.

        • By al_borland 2026-01-1322:311 reply

          If they are very bad, the company can let them go. If they are simple good or fine, the company lost their great engineer, and now has a seat filler that they can’t justify firing.

          • By tyre 2026-01-1322:41

            For sure. At that point they have to fire them, even though it's the company / leadership's fault and hard to watch. Ultimately better for that engineer, as well, to move on.

    • By vjvjvjvjghv 2026-01-1321:33

      “ It’s very easy to demotivate people”

      So true. And really hard to reverse

    • By josecodea 2026-01-207:01

      Fully agree.

      No one plans to hire their assistant based on how much they will motivate the other people that are going to deal with the assistant. Sure, it is important that they are pleasant, but that's it. Their role is actually an administrative one of brokering information. Managers are essentially the same role with higher stakes, trying to make it about anything deeper seems to be main character syndrome in full effect.

    • By loire280 2026-01-1321:411 reply

      I may not be using the same definition of "motivation" as the author, but understanding what motivates your people, putting the right mix of people together to work on the right problems, and knowing how and when to apply pressure to get people to do their best work are absolutely something managers can do to motivate their teams.

      • By josecodea 2026-01-207:03

        To leverage their pre-existing motivations*, which is the argument on OPs side, this pre-existing motivation is hired-for, not generated on the role.

    • By hahahahhaah 2026-01-1321:391 reply

      Thw word hired is doing a lot of work.

      Is motivation intrinsic to a person.

      Or is it a person plus situation.

      Ot is it person, situation and reason (reason given in interview)

      I have been most motivated when there was an aha in the interview process. Or a "cooll!" feeling. For me usually about the end product over the tech stack. I like to work on things I like to use myself.

      • By tyre 2026-01-1322:221 reply

        I think motivation is contextual. When I love the mission of the project I'm working on, I'll put everything into it. When I hit a prolonged wall of politics or poor leadership, I'm not going to operate at 100%.

        There's a trifecta that works well:

        1. The job is what the employee wants to be doing (IC, manager, FE/BE, end product or mission, whatever).

        2. It's what the company needs. (Don't let a high performer do something that's Priority 10 just to keep them.)

        3. It's what the employee is good at. (This includes areas of growth that they have aptitude for!)

        People in those situations, in my experience, tend to thrive. It's great that you've recognized the kinds of products (ones you use) that give you that.

        Something I don't think hiring managers do enough is convince applicants not to work there. Have a conversation to discover what the person wants. If it's not this role, that's totally fine! It's far better to help someone discover what they love than hire someone into something they won't.

        • By OhMeadhbh 2026-01-1322:33

          i stopped reading and upvoted this comment right after you wrote "i think motivation is contextual." i cannot agree with you more.

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